? The Selachii - Shark Race

[TheLastKhajiit]

7 hours ago, NightroModzz said:

New UVs

 

Old UVs

 

Don't mind the missing edges, wireframe view in UV mode is a bit weird in Zbrush, especially when viewing triangulated meshes.

I'm not a modder so i have no Idea what I'm looking at, but if if makes the Selachii look better I'm all for it

[D C]

 

2 hours ago, ASlySpyDuo said:

Less seams is always better so that looks very nice to me, though due to that I have a question I really hate to ask: any idea when you are done with the tail?

 

The reason why I'm asking is that I have been doing RM overlays lately and those include a tail/fin one too* (and I might make more of them, depends on things), due to different UV mapping I'd have to redo those.

 

So if it's Soon™ or in a few months or something like that, I'll just delay my own junk since I'd have to conform to taller tail on the body ones too.

 

Obviously I understand that Blaze also would need to implement it into the mod itself too etc., nor am I in a hurry or anything.

 

* I don't actually expect anyone else to use the fin/tail ones than me since those need to be blended into texture itself due to lack of RM support and that process is very trial and error if you want them to match the body and would need to be made into separate equippable tail with different texture set specific to that one character unless you want all other sharks to have same pattern and color too.

 

E:

If head is the only one you want to modify, I'm not sure why you are planning on using OS for that when RaceMenu includes sculpting which is pretty much made for exactly what you are planning on doing, unless you want to squish up every single female Selachii NPC.

 

 

oh i forgot to say , i was doing the fallout selachii one , not the skyrim one , if the fallout one was same skyrim , i would'nt have to replace the head with vulpine one's too 

 like this

[Blaze69]

25 minutes ago, TheLastKhajiit said:

I'm not a modder so i have no Idea what I'm looking at

UV map, aka the way the texture on the 2D canvas is loaded on to the 3D mesh. Ideally you want your UV maps to be clear and well done so there's no unnecessary distortions or artifacts on the texture, and also so it's easier to work on the 2D texture alone without having to load it up on the 3D mesh to check what it actually looks like (see the current warpaint textures and how distorted and weird they look on 2D before you load them ingame for an example of the latter).

 

It won't make them look better on its own (that will mostly come from the mesh itself and the future textures), but will reduce or prevent texture bugs and distortions and make it easier to get tail textures to look good.

[ASlySpyDuo]

Here's some WIP crap to (hopefully) brighten up your day, y'all.

 

(actually bare bobs 'n vegana in spoiler, just so you know)

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

[TheLastKhajiit]

21 minutes ago, ASlySpyDuo said:

Here's some WIP crap to (hopefully) brighten up your day, y'all.

 

(actually bare bobs 'n vegana in spoiler, just so you know)

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

Well, that certainly brightened up my day a bit, sexy shark

[D C]

On 3/16/2020 at 2:20 AM, ASlySpyDuo said:

Here's some WIP crap to (hopefully) brighten up your day, y'all.

 

(actually bare bobs 'n vegana in spoiler, just so you know)

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

when u are the coolest kid in school and everyone wants your stuff

[Bl1nd_Eye]

So, can someone tell me how to get the sharks to NOT have his/her lips basically sealed shut?  I keep having that issue and it's kinda annoying.

[Blaze69]

18 minutes ago, Bl1nd_Eye said:

So, can someone tell me how to get the sharks to NOT have his/her lips basically sealed shut?  I keep having that issue and it's kinda annoying.

Sealed shut? What do you mean by that? Facial expressions should work just fine on them, both from vanilla sources (which IIRC is mainly the "CombatAnger" expression and the mouth opening when using shouts) and from mods like SL scenes or the Facial Expression Ring/MFG commands.

[NightroModzz]

30 minutes ago, Bl1nd_Eye said:

So, can someone tell me how to get the sharks to NOT have his/her lips basically sealed shut?  I keep having that issue and it's kinda annoying.

 

9 minutes ago, Blaze69 said:

Sealed shut? What do you mean by that? Facial expressions should work just fine on them, both from vanilla sources (which IIRC is mainly the "CombatAnger" expression and the mouth opening when using shouts) and from mods like SL scenes or the Facial Expression Ring/MFG commands.

 

I think he/she just doesn't like the idea of anthro sharks having a fully closed mouth without showing their teeth by default. If that is the case, to change the default expression (I think) in racemenu/character editor go to expressions and slightly increase the "ahh" slider.

[Bl1nd_Eye]

4 hours ago, NightroModzz said:

 

 

I think he/she just doesn't like the idea of anthro sharks having a fully closed mouth without showing their teeth by default. If that is the case, to change the default expression (I think) in racemenu/character editor go to expressions and slightly increase the "ahh" slider.

I would, but...it seems like expressions have just up and vanished for the Selachii race entirely.

[TheLastKhajiit]

I've had the same thing happen for various race mods

[Kuroyami]

5 minutes ago, Bl1nd_Eye said:

I would, but...it seems like expressions have just up and vanished for the Selachii race entirely.

 

Just now, TheLastKhajiit said:

I've had the same thing happen for various race mods

Technically, it is already included if you use SexLab(or part of it, I'm not 100% sure), but try this - Mfg Console(and this mod has a patch for it, Smooth Interface, so you can get higher FPS, 60 or 120 in the console menu, and others if using the full mod).

 

It can set the players expression with the console, which they have to be selected in. Then just type mfg phoneme, and after that, the numbers shown in the right side of the screen. So it would be something like mfg phoneme 0 50 to increase the Aah expression value - and these should work with both vanilla and modded races.

 

[Blaze69]

12 hours ago, NightroModzz said:

If that is the case, to change the default expression (I think) in racemenu/character editor go to expressions and slightly increase the "ahh" slider.

Unfortunately RaceMenu's Expression sliders don't work on custom races including Selachii. Those don't actually load the real expression morphs as used during gameplay but rather have their own custom RM-injected "morphs" that happen to look like vanilla human expressions do. So they don't work on anything that doesn't use vanilla human heads.

 

Main way to change the expression ingame without external mods would be to use the "setav mood X" console command on the PC, with X standing for the mood in question (0 Neutral (aka the default one), 1 Angry, 2 Fear, 3 Happy, 4 Sad, 5 Surprised, 6 Puzzled, 7 Disgusted, according to UESP). And even then I don't think the "Mood" actor value is actually meant to work like that so it may reset back to Neutral after a short while or just not work at all in the first place.

7 hours ago, Bl1nd_Eye said:

I would, but...it seems like expressions have just up and vanished for the Selachii race entirely.

Try reinstalling the mod, and then load the game, select the PC in the console, and type "mp 1 100". If they open their mouth wide, then expressions are at least being loaded.

 

(You do need to have MFG Console installed for this command to work, but it comes bundled with SL so chances are you have it already; if not, just follow the link posted by Kuroyami above and install the standalone files).

[ASlySpyDuo]

On 3/11/2020 at 1:39 PM, ASlySpyDuo said:

way to prove me completely wrong.

 Yeah, so about that...

 

I took the new tail for a spin, some of you may have noticed that I tend to use the tail a bit more creatively these days so I know how to work them to their limits when playing dollhouse in Skyrim. I can say that, without exaggeration, this is by far the best tail I have had the pleasure of abusing working with by a colossal margin.*

 

And since I am fully aware that pictures speak much louder than words, let's get started with that...

 

The ASSD Tail Report™

 

(do note that tail textures should be considered as placeholder for now)

Spoiler

 

Let's start with simple pleasures in life: HDT-PE physics.

Thanks to higher polycount and excellent weighting, the new tail behaves much, much better than the older ones when coupled with Havok physics. As you can see from above and the 'title' screenshot, the curving with physics is much smoother than the OG Sharkmer tail.

 

 

Speaking of curving, just the idle curve is much smoother with no really obvious "steps" along the way, unlike the old tail. Only area where at least I can see anything like that is near the base, the actual length of the tail is remarkably natural.

 

 

And now, the real stress test: NiOverride Pose Adjustments. This is the one that makes it very easy to break tails and expose the low amount of polygons or bad weighting without use of external tools with wireframes and stuff.

 

In the above one, I'm applying bone transforms and rotating the bones to opposing directions relative to neighboring ones. Usually this tends to result in the tail basically folding into itself or other severe deformations which is why I have never been able to make a sine wave out of it.

 

Well, as you can see, that's not the case here at all, and that's only with 5 bones to manipulate, one of them being the tail root node so 4 along the length.

 

 

I have never been able to make any tail curve around legs and look even remotely acceptable either, this is pretty much pushing the limits of 5 bones and it still looks fine to me, though now that I look at it I could have twisted the bones better. Still, this is far, far better than what I have been able to achieve before, especially the longer cheetah or snow leopard tails from YA would have had some really sharp angles here (and yes, I have tried).

 

 

Thanks to all this (and the addition of strategic butt fins), I can finally do this too without the tail looking absolutely abysmal. It's a pose I have attempted to do at least 8 times in the past, some of them even posted, but I was never happy how it turned out in the end due to tail. Well, no more!

 

 

So yeah, a major upgrade in pretty much every aspects, including how it behaves with Havok physics, general shape, weighting, and obviously higher polycount.

 

 

Though for the sake of thoroughness (and transparency so that it doesn't seem like I can only sing praises, lol), the vanilla tail animations don't exactly agree with the first set of fins on the left side.

 

Due to Bethesda pretty much half-assing the tails in general, the vanilla animations make the root position not exactly right which means the tail sinks into the body which also obviously means that the fins are closer to the ass. The above example is 0.35 weight UNPBB (similar to base UNP) body and the left fin brushes the asscheek.

 

Personally I don't consider this an issue - vanilla is vanilla and not exactly the highest of quality all around. The HDT-PE controller xml does position the tail in the actual tail root node which makes the fins not touch the body even remotely.

 

 

Though even the vanilla anims are perfectly fine on the right side due to the tail poking out in an angle because... Bethesda I guess.

 

And this concludes my report on sharks and shark accessories tails.

 

In conclusion from the resident nature photographer: I award it 12 out of 10 points.

Mad props to @NightroModzz for the awesome mesh and @MadMansGun for excellent skinning!

 

* It's true! I've played around with tails skinned to the 10 "HDT Tailbones" too and I don't really like them nearly as much; they feel too much like a rope that gets tangled everywhere. YA ones, including this one since it uses Kritta's controller too, feel much more natural and nicer to me, so unless I missed some super secret awesome tail somewhere, this one really is the best.

 

[MadMansGun]

1 hour ago, ASlySpyDuo said:

and @MadMansGun for excellent skinning!

not that excellent, this spot is still a problem:

3 nodes are effecting that one spot and getting there percentage balanced correctly is a nightmare.

the tail base is also a tricky area.

 

1 hour ago, ASlySpyDuo said:

Thanks to higher polycount and excellent weighting

the polycount was actually counter productive, it's easier to get better weighting with a lower count that is spaced evenly between the nodes.

1 hour ago, ASlySpyDuo said:

I have never been able to make any tail curve around legs and look even remotely acceptable either, this is pretty much pushing the limits of 5 bones and it still looks fine to me, though now that I look at it I could have twisted the bones better. Still, this is far, far better than what I have been able to achieve before, especially the longer cheetah or snow leopard tails from YA would have had some really sharp angles here (and yes, I have tried).

have you tried my argonian & khajiit tails?

MMG_ReWeightedTails_Test.7z

they are what i skinwraped the shark tail with to get the weighting.

https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/3ds-max/learn-explore/caas/CloudHelp/cloudhelp/2015/ENU/3DSMax/files/GUID-1B3C4662-8C42-4F02-BD1B-204CD491166B-htm.html

[ASlySpyDuo]

21 minutes ago, MadMansGun said:

not that excellent, this spot is still a problem:

Well, let me show you what happens when I try to make a sine wave with the current tail.

Spoiler

 

I don't think this one need any red circles. ?

Pretty much the same with most of YA tails too, so compare those to new one and you might get why I would classify the noveau shark tail as excellent.

I can downgrade it from 'excellent' to 'good' if you want though.

 

25 minutes ago, MadMansGun said:

the polycount was actually counter productive, it's easier to get better weighting with a lower count that is spaced evenly between the nodes.

I mean yeah, that's just logical since higher polycount = more vertices to skin but I like to think that the end result speaks for itself here.

 

26 minutes ago, MadMansGun said:

have you tried my argonian & khajiit tails?

I actually haven't, have you posted these anywhere else? I probably would have jumped on them right away if I saw them, I'm curious if they pass the "sine wave test" so I'll give them a spin.

[MadMansGun]

4 minutes ago, ASlySpyDuo said:

Well, let me show you what happens when I try to make a sine wave with the current tail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juFZh92MUOY

5 minutes ago, ASlySpyDuo said:

I actually haven't, have you posted these anywhere else?

somewhere in YA, but everything i post there gets buried.

[ASlySpyDuo]

12 minutes ago, MadMansGun said:

somewhere in YA, but everything i post there gets buried.

Huh. I guess I'm part of the problem since I don't recall seeing those there but anyway...

20 minutes ago, ASlySpyDuo said:

I'll give them a spin.

And so I did.

 

Spoiler

 

 

The lower polycount isn't doing them any favors here but I'd classify them as pass for the wave test, weighting wise.

 

YA cheetah tail for comparison which definitely does not pass:

 

[poblivion]

46 minutes ago, ASlySpyDuo said:

Huh. I guess I'm part of the problem since I don't recall seeing those there but anyway...

And so I did.

 

  Hide contents

 

 

The lower polycount isn't doing them any favors here but I'd classify them as pass for the wave test, weighting wise.

 

YA cheetah tail for comparison which definitely does not pass:

 

 

And Lykaios tail ???

 

 

[ASlySpyDuo]

17 minutes ago, poblivion said:

And Lykaios tail ???

Spoiler

It's easier to say that none of the other tails pass the "test", only equine ones come even close to the new shark tail and MMG's reweighted ones.

[TheLastKhajiit]

Female Selachii photo shoot time

Spoiler

 

[poblivion]

48 minutes ago, ASlySpyDuo said:

  Hide contents

It's easier to say that none of the other tails pass the "test", only equine ones come even close to the new shark tail and MMG's reweighted ones.

I was hoping the Lykaios tail would be have better result. ?

 

 

[NightroModzz]

5 hours ago, MadMansGun said:

3 nodes are effecting that one spot and getting there percentage balanced correctly is a nightmare.

the tail base is also a tricky area.

Hmm, not like I new where the node positions would be when making the mesh, but If I change the positions of the mid fins further up or down the tail it would not be as anatomically correct. I could adjust it if both you and Blaze are in agreement.

[MadMansGun]

38 minutes ago, NightroModzz said:

Hmm, not like I new where the node positions would be when making the mesh, but If I change the positions of the mid fins further up or down the tail it would not be as anatomically correct. I could could adjust it if both you and Blaze are in agreement.

it's a bit late for that now, the tail is already working in game.

[Blaze69]

40 minutes ago, NightroModzz said:

Hmm, not like I new where the node positions would be when making the mesh, but If I change the positions of the mid fins further up or down the tail it would not be as anatomically correct. I could could adjust it if both you and Blaze are in agreement.

I mean, I'd say Sly's pics above on the previous page are proof enough of this new tail's huge improvements over the old one, so I don't really think such a small "issue" would be worth editing the mesh and redoing the weights and all. If you and MMG really want to go for it, that's alright, but otherwise I'd say it can be left as is, which is more than good enough.