Paid mods and Bethesda announcement on the E3

[arpaschad]

Meh...i'll just quote some random modder's thoughts on the matter since I agree to most of what he/she said...

 

From:  https://darkconsole.tumblr.com/

 

 

 

"I’m not worried about paid modding.

 

The reason behind that is this: a bulk of the mods, the mods that matter, are always going to be free. 

 

There will be a few douchey people who sell their souls to jump in. If you remember the first time it was tried with Steam and a few notables like Chesko jumped in, and the backlash he got, and then how he himself got in trouble for an animation he didn’t do, and then how he had to pull out with some story about how it made him sad, mostly because his cut wasn’t big enough. They may try this new one, and a few guys may even make some money. But if your mod is behind a paywall, it will not see much attention, especially from other modders.

 

People will not have incentive to integrate with the mod. Lets say you want me to add support for Mod Whatever in one of my mods, and the only way for me to do that is to buy it, yeah that ain’t happening I may not even have interest in that that mod you request. And heaven forbid that shit don’t come with source code, which you know will be the case in an attempt to make it harder to “pirate”. The only mods that have a chance to succeed behind a paywall will be the ones that are completely standalone, and somehow don’t get fucked over by conflicts from free mods and people like me who won’t give a shit to make sure its compatible.

 

I ain’t about to be a little bitch and quit over it, but I do believe Bethesda does not deserve any cut from modder revenue. They already stole your money on the base game itself that they did no quality control for (see that gd screenshot, my youtube playlist), and didn’t even finish. Instead they bank on modders fixing and finishing their games for them as an actual part of their business strategy. Do I need to remind you how they released Skyrim half done? How the main quest of the game can be completed by level 10 in like 4 hours? How about in Fallout 4 where they didn’t even think to make stealth kills grant XP? Come on. My mods will remain free purely so they can’t get a cut of that.

 

If you really want to support a modder with money, support their Patreon. Give them a reason to be involved in the community on an open level. Also stop being stupid on the Nexus comments like begging for console releases on mods that require F4SE."

 

Edit: one thing's for sure though, the modding community both end users and content creators are divided in this matter and it would take a long time and some good moves from Bethesda to reconcile the differences and come to a common ground... I dub this event "The Bethesda Schism"...as for my opinion: I think they should be focusing more on creating newer content themselves rather than doing many things at once i.e. that new tcg, some vr games, still no mention of a new elder scrolls title or improvements to the mediocre(IMO)fallout 4...

 

"it just DOESN'T work"

[Jazzman]

Meh.....

 

This just like the cancer that exist now in gaming all starts out the same way this is nothing more than a gateway for these greedy companies to see just how much they can try to fuck you once again.......... but people keep accepting it and then have the nerve to wonder why gaming is in such a shit state. It's a bad joke.

It takes two to tango, a greedy company and an inspired user /w some modding skills desperately looking for fool's gold. Well, by various reasons some 90% of the players don't create their char themselves, they are using nice and free presets made by gifted users, quite essential for their gaming experience. I fear that in a commercialized modding scene these people might be forced to stick to their own skills on the sliders. The backlash would be inevitable. Bad luck, huh?

[bytion]

Well, what happened last time will happen again.

 

I am no modder or some tech guy, but I know people, that's part of my job, this could hardly come out different this time.

[bjornk]

I've lived about 20% of my life without computers and more than 90% of it without playing any Bethesda games and I can easily live the rest without even hearing about them, like I've been doing for many other games and their developers, and I've actually been doing just that for more than a year. I'm sure you can too.

[Canaris]

Im still waiting for a clear answer as to what I, as a consumer, gain from this Creation Club bullshit and why should i be excited for it.

 

It forces me to pay for something that was always free, it limits my selection of mods and it gives the control over the content of those mods to a corporation that will be free to censor and remove anything they dont like ( under the guise of it not being "family friendly" or "controversial", "racist" whatever ) etc.

And once this Creation Club bullshit will be the only way to mod future Bugfesta titles ( and it will end up that way, dont kid yourself ) i will be absolutely fucked. 

[leddis3]

I'm just gonna leave this here. https://blarrghbofb.tumblr.com/post/161791839595/thoughts-on-creation-club-paid-mods

 

Seriously, read through it. All of it. My response is down at the bottom.

It is paid mods. It is exactly like the old system.

You and the dullard who posted that legalise defense rant are falling for Bethesda's politico-speak.

 

"Not paid mods but hiring developers for content"? You dont need to hire a developer for a weapon. Or a new suit of armor. Those are the kind of mods Bethesda said would be included. This is exactly the same as paid mods and every greedy individual who tries to cash in on it deserves to be called out.

 

Will it divide the community? Of course it will. But that's Bethesda's fault, not ours.

And if the divide is between creators who work from their heart to share their work with the community, and vultures who want to make people who have already paid for the game keep paying and paying till we're bled dry.. then so be it.

[leddis3]

Like with the last debate about paid mods, the entitlement is strong in this thread.

 

I am a modder. I release mods, free of charge. Because that's what -I- want.

 

But what I resent to is people who think they have a god-given right to have free mods made to their personal tastes. News flash: Modders aren't your personal slaves, and users have absolutely -zero- right to get anything for free. If somebody wants to work with Bethesda and make a living of modding, that's their darn right, and it's nobody's place to question it. Period!

 

Modding isn't "supposed to be free" just because that's what you guys want. Modding is software development, nothing else. The only difference between what a modder does and what a game studio does is that a mod isn't a standalone product and requires the base game to function. Why it's ok that the latter make money and the former should not be allowed to is a bit beyond me, tbh.

 

Also, this isn't about paid modding. This isn't even about modding at all. This is about Beth picking people, who through modding have proven their ability to develop content, and contract them to produce exclusive content for them. This is absolutely not a new business model. It's essentially plain old outsourcing. Studios have contracted modders to release "mini DLCs" for a long time now. Neverwinter Nights did it. Cities Skyline does it. Other games have done it. In no case has this ever killed modding. All it does is offering modders a chance to make some dough (maybe even break into the industry), giving users more (quality assured) content to buy, and allowing the studio to increase their profits. There is exactly nothing wrong with any of that. If you don't like the content or the business model, then don't buy it!

 

DS Edit: unrelated drama removed

 

I've said it once and I've said it again, outsourcing to modders to create professional, big mods is fine.

THIS IS NOT THAT. They CLAIM this is that, then go on to say how this "content" can be any old mod that adds guns, armor, new areas. You know the same small mods we have now that are for free and have helped build a community.

 

You say modders need to earn a living? So do I, and I am not made of money.

The mod community of a given game is where I can turn to, to enhance a game that, in Bethesda's case, always come out broken and unplayable, without having to pay through the nose for every little thing.

Why do peoplle like you expect that I and all like me have infinite pockets to sustain modders? If I can donate, I will. But don't demand that I pay. Not for something that fixes the game. Not for something based on other people's work.

 

Cities Skylines for example has a vibrant mod community. All of it's individual building mods are free. There is no "creator club" or what the hell ever. So you're outright lying about that as usual.

Whether their DLC are aided by modders I don't know. Assuming they are, they're still released under Colossal Order's name, still expansion sized content, don't require Paradox funbucks and don't interfere with actual mods.

Whatever Cities Skylines is doing, it's not what Bethesda intends to do.

 

Also, "break into the industry"? I'm sorry, since when do modders need to be paid or be lead by the nose by a publisher to do that? You do realise many developers today started off as modders, right?

The developer of Falskaar was offered a job at Bungie I believe at least partially vased on that, the developer of a combat mod for Morrowind was given a job by Bethesda to work on Oblivion's combat, and on ans on.

To say that this paid mod system is needed for modders to get involved with professional developers is yet another complete untruth made to obfuscate the fact that Bethesda want to milk regular users dry and use modders as their patsies.

In fact I dare say developers would be less inclined to hire mercenaries who so readily hand their work over to a microtransaction system.

[winny257]

I've lived about 20% of my life without computers and more than 90% of it without playing any Bethesda games and I can easily live the rest without even hearing about them, like I've been doing for many other games and their developers, and I've actually been doing just that for more than a year. I'm sure you can too.

 

it is exactly like that, I need Bethesda not but they need me, for I am the one with the money, that they want to have!

BUT I give my MONEY only one company with which I am satisfied and that is *quite sure* NOT Bethesda!

[leddis3]

 

I've lived about 20% of my life without computers and more than 90% of it without playing any Bethesda games and I can easily live the rest without even hearing about them, like I've been doing for many other games and their developers, and I've actually been doing just that for more than a year. I'm sure you can too.

 

it is exactly like that, I need Bethesda not but they need me, for I am the one with the money, that they want to have!

BUT I give my MONEY only one company with which I am satisfied and that is *quite sure* NOT Bethesda!

 

 

That's all well and good, but I love these type of games. A lot of people do.

Yes we don't need them. Yes we'll survive without them. But.. it's not enough to survive.

 

This entire situation has come about because Bethesda have no competition. It's nearest thing to a competitor was Bioware, and they're now a punchline.

All I can do is count on Cyberpunk to live up to it's promise. Not only to have an alternative but to kick Bethesda in their arrogant, greedy asses.

[Jazzman]

Thanks to the god from the machine I retired some twelve years ago from year-long extensive modding the AI after having seen my modified code lines in the official add-on to the main game (my remarks in Spanish included!) and the sudden disappearance of our team leader after rumors got spread that the whole modlet code was sold by the company to the South Koreans for some 10,000 bucks. True or false, that man never again appeared under his pseudonym on the internet. The team fell apart immediately, leaving the nestling behind with a mountain of unfinished stuff. At the age of just fifteen I've felt totally screwed and misplaced in the Hall of Fame. The famous Jesus anecdote on not throwing pearls among the pigs crossed my mind. Didn't know what to do, so I decided not to do anything anymore. Theft, greed and corruption are mighty weapons to destroy not just a fellowship, but a whole community as well. No trust, no deal, neither for money nor for free. The strategy used is called divide and conquer, and here the goal is the conquest of the user's piggy bank. No thanks!

[winny257]

 

 

I've lived about 20% of my life without computers and more than 90% of it without playing any Bethesda games and I can easily live the rest without even hearing about them, like I've been doing for many other games and their developers, and I've actually been doing just that for more than a year. I'm sure you can too.

 

it is exactly like that, I need Bethesda not but they need me, for I am the one with the money, that they want to have!

BUT I give my MONEY only one company with which I am satisfied and that is *quite sure* NOT Bethesda!

 

 

That's all well and good, but I love these type of games. A lot of people do.

Yes we don't need them. Yes we'll survive without them. But.. it's not enough to survive.

 

This entire situation has come about because Bethesda have no competition. It's nearest thing to a competitor was Bioware, and they're now a punchline.

All I can do is count on Cyberpunk to live up to it's promise. Not only to have an alternative but to kick Bethesda in their arrogant, greedy asses.

 

 

I have my whole long life never anything unrighteous done, but I swear when TES 6 appears, then I'm going to be a pirate.

not a cent more for Bethesda! 

[peculiaris]

 

 

the number of Consoletards >>>>> PC players.

 

This is factually wrong. The PC market is stronger than the console market and has been for a few years now. As somebody phrased it, the PC vs console war is over. The PC won.

 

http://hexus.net/gaming/news/industry/83972-pc-games-sales-eclipse-value-console-games-sales-2016/

 

 

I wish people would stop citing those numbers.  It's practically fake news.  The numbers were framed entirely to entice gullible headlines and not taken seriously by industry or finance people. 

 

If you strip out what Chinese supposedly spend on free-to-play micro-transaction cons/swindles, which by the way is also highly suspect given unreliable statistics from China (over-reporting of box office receipts and video streaming ratings are common and sometimes inflated by 20x the real number), console games outsold PC 3:1.  Also keep in mind that both Playstation and Xbox were not available in China until last year due to global embargo.  Furthermore if we exclude MMO/MOBA, the number is closer to 5:1.  Oldrim is the most modded game in history which was exclusive to PC yet PC contribution to Oldrim "revenue" was something like ~17% (PC games have lower retail price and constant barrages of Steam sales).

 

 

First off: Don't compare PC to Console sales, You don't buy a new PC every other generation like you do with Console.

 

Secondly: Why would you ignore the asian market?! It's one of the biggest in PC gaming and one of the biggest gaming cooperation is Chinese.

 

Thirdly: MMO's and MOBA's are just as much games as any other and shouldn't be ignored because that is just creating propaganda.

 

So, PC is bigger BUT Sony and Microsoft give developers money to develop on Console and so the focus will be there.

[zzz72w3r]

 

 

 

the number of Consoletards >>>>> PC players.

 

This is factually wrong. The PC market is stronger than the console market and has been for a few years now. As somebody phrased it, the PC vs console war is over. The PC won.

 

http://hexus.net/gaming/news/industry/83972-pc-games-sales-eclipse-value-console-games-sales-2016/

 

 

I wish people would stop citing those numbers.  It's practically fake news.  The numbers were framed entirely to entice gullible headlines and not taken seriously by industry or finance people. 

 

If you strip out what Chinese supposedly spend on free-to-play micro-transaction cons/swindles, which by the way is also highly suspect given unreliable statistics from China (over-reporting of box office receipts and video streaming ratings are common and sometimes inflated by 20x the real number), console games outsold PC 3:1.  Also keep in mind that both Playstation and Xbox were not available in China until last year due to global embargo.  Furthermore if we exclude MMO/MOBA, the number is closer to 5:1.  Oldrim is the most modded game in history which was exclusive to PC yet PC contribution to Oldrim "revenue" was something like ~17% (PC games have lower retail price and constant barrages of Steam sales).

 

 

First off: Don't compare PC to Console sales, You don't buy a new PC every other generation like you do with Console.

 

Secondly: Why would you ignore the asian market?! It's one of the biggest in PC gaming and one of the biggest gaming cooperation is Chinese.

 

Thirdly: MMO's and MOBA's are just as much games as any other and shouldn't be ignored because that is just creating propaganda.

 

So, PC is bigger BUT Sony and Microsoft give developers money to develop on Console and so the focus will be there.

 

 

I don't want into a "who is winning" argument.  It's a waste of time so I will say my last piece and that would be it for me. 

 

When it comes to gaming there is China and there is the rest of the world.  As gaming platforms China only had PC, now increasingly mobile (handset and tablets) and no consoles until last year.  For games developed for console and PC, console version outsold PC by a large margin in rest of the world.  What has been going on in China as I described below is not indicative of where PC/console gaming money will be and the industry people all know it, which is why no big publishers/developers are in rush to tilt investments away from consoles, and why that article was very misleading in calling PC as the more important market of the two.  The industry however have been looking into micro-transactions and pay-to-win, where unfortunately China has shown the world their profit potentials.

 

Without going into a long analysis of how this came to be, the competitive landscape, revenue generation and experience of Chinese PC gaming is actually closer to mobile and social gaming than what we traditionally think of as PC gaming with its innovation and leading edge technology, domain of the rich(er) people.  Not surprisingly the Chinese "PC" gaming industry has started to shift into Android and away from Windows.  Per-capita income in China is now at a point where consumers can afford and are seeking richer experiences from gaming where console/PC games are positioned elsewhere.  Consoles are just entering China and so are demands for AAA titles.  There is little reason to believe the allocation of PC/console revenues will deviate greatly from the rest of the world. 

[arpaschad]

Oh dear...I see the Bethesda Schism has done it's work...

 

well there is the option of "if you don't like it (or can't afford it) then don't buy it" then they lived happily ever after...

 

what we are all forgetting is brainwashed or not, there are people who wants to pay for quality content...and no matter what education the other people from the other side try to show to them, it's still their money and their problem...

[bytion]

I've lived about 20% of my life without computers and more than 90% of it without playing any Bethesda games and I can easily live the rest without even hearing about them, like I've been doing for many other games and their developers, and I've actually been doing just that for more than a year. I'm sure you can too.

 

Yep, I don't why people take this so far, beth will fuck up that's for sure, but we can just move on, yes TES is highly moddable, but doesn't mean other games don't, there are so many other companies try to get mod community shift towards their games, it may take times, just like fan base of the TES slowly grow in the past. 

[slash197]

Oh dear...I see the Bethesda Schism has done it's work...

 

well there is the option of "if you don't like it (or can't afford it) then don't buy it" then they lived happily ever after...

 

what we are all forgetting is brainwashed or not, there are people who wants to pay for quality content...and no matter what education the other people from the other side try to show to them, it's still their money and their problem...

 

Way to try to paint people ok with paying professionals (only modders who act like professionals, and have the work ethic to meet actual, real production milestones can get on the program) for their work as brainwashed and uneducated.

[DoctaSax]

Way to try to paint people ok with paying professionals (only modders who act like professionals, and have the work ethic to meet actual, real production milestones can get on the program) for their work as brainwashed and uneducated.

I'm sure that was meant sarcastically.

[arpaschad]

yeah I should have put the sarcasm tag in the end of my last post or something...

 

Bethesda Schism... how ominous...

 

there's still Nexus so...

[winny257]

yeah I should have put the sarcasm tag in the end of my last post or something...

 

Bethesda Schism... how ominous...

 

there's still Nexus so...

 

but how long still, yes yes how long still.  That was sarcastic.   

No more free mods, no more Nexus.   

[Jazzman]

but how long still, yes yes how long still.  That was sarcastic.   

No more free mods, no more Nexus.   

I don't subscribe to your conclusion, winny pops. If the management of Bethesda has more than just mush for brains they will tolerate a twin system with modders producing free mods, for example on the Nexus, that at a later stage get recruited for the at least in the short term more profitable paid mod section, otherwise the whole concept dies out within five years at most.

 

Whatever the case may be, with the right of a modder that had published her work for free, even w/o donations, I don't support the commercialization of modding. Not because I couldn't afford the prepayment of what I've not yet approved in my game or because I'm unwilling to become a shareholder to throw a wrench in the strange works of Bethesda but because it runs against all principles of modding and the ethos of sharing (and caring), the togetherness that has produced the results we admire so much in the first place. Remember, no man is a island, especially not a modding man. But in a pay-to-play-the-mod environment the paid man will be entirely on his own, fuckin' alone and there is no way back home for the lost son when the shit hits the fan...

[Angrybird]

I honestly don't care their games are getting worst if mods are paid I won't get fooled into caring.

[Guest]

Remainder:

 

CALM DOWN!

 

And do not insult o start drama.

 

I am cleaning this thread now, and I will not go easy.

 

[Guest]

Well CD Project Red is the new Bethesda for me. I can't wait until their Cyberpunk 2077 release.

I just hope they make it more modable.

[leddis3]

Well CD Project Red is the new Bethesda for me. I can't wait until their Cyberpunk 2077 release.

I just hope they make it more modable.

 

- Character customisation

- Moddability

- Openish world to screw around in

 

If they check these 3 things, they'll be so for me as well. Far beyond Bethesda, if they maintain their consumer-friendliness.

[Tripleekz]

No mods that are already out will be allowed within "Creation Club". This sounds alot like what EPIC is doing with Unreal Tournament, working directly with mod authors and outside developers. 

Quote from Bethesda: "No. Mods will remain a free and open system where anyone can create and share what they’d like. Also, we won’t allow any existing mods to be retrofitted into Creation Club, it must all be original content. Most of the Creation Club content is created internally, some with external partners who have worked on our games, and some by external Creators. All the content is approved, curated, and taken through the full internal dev cycle; including localization, polishing, and testing. This also guarantees that all content works together. We’ve looked at many ways to do “paid mods”, and the problems outweigh the benefits. We’ve encountered many of those issues before. But, there’s a constant demand from our fans to add more official high quality content to our games, and while we are able to create a lot of it, we think many in our community have the talent to work directly with us and create some amazing new things." Also only "Skyrim Special Edition" and "Fallout 4" are under the banner of Creation Club so far. But this does not mean that mod authors have to make mods for Creation Club. they, like the mods have to be approved and they will work directly with Bethesda.