Paid mods and Bethesda announcement on the E3

[pinky6225]

DS edit: insults removed.

 

And you still haven't answer my question - WHY THE FUCK I HAVE TO PAY FOR SOMETHING THAT USED TO BE FREE FOR THE LAST 30 YEARS OF PC GAMING with zero positive sides of this whole Creation Club shit ?

 

Its 2017, 30 years ago was 1987

 

What modded games did you have back then bearing in mind that's pre-56k modem days

 

 

[Canaris]

 

DS edit: insults removed.

 

And you still haven't answer my question - WHY THE FUCK I HAVE TO PAY FOR SOMETHING THAT USED TO BE FREE FOR THE LAST 30 YEARS OF PC GAMING with zero positive sides of this whole Creation Club shit ?

 

Its 2017, 30 years ago was 1987

 

What modded games did you have back then bearing in mind that's pre-56k modem days

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_of_speech

 

But nice deflection. Again.

 

Would 20 years ago change anything ? No.

Quake 1 had mods, Doom had mods, DN3D had mods - all of them fucking FREE.

 

But here we are, 2017 with gaming developers and publishers having more money than certain countries and we have people defending having to pay for mods.

What a great time to be alive. 

[pinky6225]

Okay so you just picked a random number from the air (i.e. you made it up) and you want people to reasonably disprove your made up statements?

 

As you've been told multiple times you have the option of not buying them

 

Why do you get the final say on what others can buy?

 

When i played WoW the entire concept of paying £20 to move a toon from servers seemed a ridiculous waste of money to me and a con - like hell the cost of them doing it was that high, doesn't mean i felt the need to insult everybody that used it

 

Didn't play quake myself, found it to dark (lighting wise) but a quick check via google and i come across

 

 

Team Fortress was originally a 1996 Quake, and then QuakeWorld modification developed by TF Software Pty. Ltd. Its developers were working on a follow up stand-alone version that they planned to call Team Fortress 2 when the team was hired by Valve Corporation to write a port of Team Fortress as a mod for Valve's game Half-Life. The mod was released as Team Fortress Classic by Valve in April 1999.

 

Doesnt seem like much of a free lunch there to me

[junkacc]

Like I said before in this thread, the bean counters have already counted the beans and the conclusion is the number of Consoletards >>>>> PC players. Bethesda don't give a shit whether any of you ever buy another of their games. All you Skyrim fans have given TES so much publicity by all your evangelizing and fawning, "oh skyyyyyyyyyriiiiiim...!!!", that it and Bethesda have become household names, recognizable by even the casual-est of the casual consoletards. Now Bethesda is saying they don't need you anymore and dumping you like worn out whores. lol jokes on you.

[Kimy]

the number of Consoletards >>>>> PC players.

 

This is factually wrong. The PC market is stronger than the console market and has been for a few years now. As somebody phrased it, the PC vs console war is over. The PC won.

 

http://hexus.net/gaming/news/industry/83972-pc-games-sales-eclipse-value-console-games-sales-2016/

[DoctaSax]

I'd imagine they'll rely on people reporting such cases, and ofc on the threat of cutting people from the program if they're found to steal.

[pinky6225]

 

 

DS edit: insults removed.

 

And you still haven't answer my question - WHY THE FUCK I HAVE TO PAY FOR SOMETHING THAT USED TO BE FREE FOR THE LAST 30 YEARS OF PC GAMING with zero positive sides of this whole Creation Club shit ?

 

Its 2017, 30 years ago was 1987

 

What modded games did you have back then bearing in mind that's pre-56k modem days

 

 

Doom *.wad files.. which were actually SOLD as a compilation.. I doubt the modders got paid for that. Unreal Tournament 99 had nudie mods (actually they were pretty horrific.. I didn't mod that in).. Then there was Nude Raider 2 (Tomb Raider 2 mod).. fun times. 

 

 

Ya know i never actually paid for doom so i only ever got to play episode 1 which was shareware - if only there had been some sort of internet with micro transactions i could have put my dad's credit card into back then

 

[sp4rkfist]

 

the number of Consoletards >>>>> PC players.

 

This is factually wrong. The PC market is stronger than the console market and has been for a few years now. As somebody phrased it, the PC vs console war is over. The PC won.

 

http://hexus.net/gaming/news/industry/83972-pc-games-sales-eclipse-value-console-games-sales-2016/

 

 

I beg to differ. That's doesn't apply on AAA game sales. Look at TW3 sales.

 http://wccftech.com/witcher-3-sales-split-30-pc-70-console/

 

PC gaming is profitable because digital sales cost less compared retail sales, not because more players on PC.

 

And yes, creation club is marketed for console games. While creation club still get negative reception among Xbox players, but from what I see, some PS4 players looks happy with this.

 

I still have my doubt with their curation system. This is the same company who spend zero amount of work on patching the game and the CK. I'm not sure the capability of this "curation team" for handling any stolen assets. 

[leddis3]

Paid mods work as standalone large expansion type mods. That can be worthy of a fee.

 

What Bethesda are trying to shill is not that. It's the same old crap in a new wrapper.

They're being intentionally vague as what mod qualifies for the Creation Club, and that's the biggest problem.

If they were big independent and quality assured mods, then maybe. But no, it's guns, it's armour, it's fucking crab armour. It's tiny little bits and bobs that should be free as they always have been.

 

People can go on about user entitlement all they want, but modders are not entitled to anything either; neither are Bethesda. They already sold their game. Their naked attempt to double-dip without even bothering to do any work is flat out abuse of their own fanbase.

 

And hell! Say you think modders are entitled.. what if a mod that relies on SKSE or FNIS or whatever is sold on the CC? Will that be allowed? If it is, don't the makers of SKSE or FNIS deserve a cut? What gives anyone the right to charge for something based on a free contribution?

These kinds of ridiculous situations and more are what will happen. It's divisive and obnoxious, and had this system been in place back in Morrowind, this mod community would not exist today. Because mods have been built upon mods that have been built upon mods. There's been drama, theft and withdrawals to be sure, but all of that gets multiplied x1000 under a paid system.

 

Furthermore there is the biggest problem with this all, which Bethesda in their vagueness of course refuse to rule out:

That many mods exist for the sole purpose of fixing Bethesda's mistakes. The makers of SkyUI were seduced by Bethesda's first attempt, and intended to put SkyUI 5.0 behind a paywall. This was absolutely absurd and infuriating. 

Bethesda were going to get a profitable cut of a UI mod that only existed because of their lazy refusal to make a proper PC UI.

This broken, corrupt and incestuous industry has often allowed developers to get away with laziness and incompetence, but this would've been the first time they would be actively rewarded for poorly implementing features, or omitting them entirely!

Even if this claim that "existing mods can't be sold on the CC" turns out to be true, what's to stop modders from camouflaging their next iteration of their mod as something else? Nor is this any guarantee against paid fix mods for a hypothetical TES 6 or Fallout 5 assuming Bethesda ever stop milking fucking Skyrim.

 

Look at Skyrim's vanilla UI, look at Fallout 4's dialogue system. What incentive do developers have to actually work and polish features, if they know modders will not only do their work for them, but they will profit off that?

[pinky6225]

You have a point but then again Fore (All Hail!) seems perfectly capable of fighting his own battles so does he need a defender?

 

I imagine the SKSE team are similar

 

I'm not sure outrage on others behave is really gonna add anything to any sort of debate about the subject

 

 

The makers of SkyUI were seduced by Bethesda's first attempt, and intended to put SkyUI 5.0 behind a paywall. This was absolutely absurd and infuriating.

Huh?

[leddis3]

You have a point but then again Fore (All Hail!) seems perfectly capable of fighting his own battles so does he need a defender?

 

I imagine the SKSE team are similar

 

I'm not sure outrage on others behave is really gonna add anything to any sort of debate about the subject

 

 

The makers of SkyUI were seduced by Bethesda's first attempt, and intended to put SkyUI 5.0 behind a paywall. This was absolutely absurd and infuriating.

Huh?

 

Whether they can defend themselves or not or want money or not is besides the point. 

It's the principle. Bethesda and the greedy avaricious people who fall for their little pyramid scheme use the logic that they are entitled to money for their work (or in Bethesda's case money for providing a base for that work despite the fact that they were already given money for it).

Therefore, by that same logic, anyone who made anything that their mods rely on at all are also entitled to money. I am not saying the makers of FNIS or SKSE are, I'm using them as the most prominent examples.

 

As for my point on SkyUI, when paid mods first appeared on the Steam Workshop, the makers of SkyUI announced their intention to make 5.0, which was in development at the time, part of the paid mod system.

[pinky6225]

As i recall this story the dude that had stopped modding skyrim as he had lost interest was coming to back to make some money, last update on 5.1 that shows on nexus is 14:54, 18 August 2015

 

I accept its the "principle of it" but unless you are one of the peeps that have made one of those amazing pieces of work perhaps we should let the people that did, decide

[leddis3]

As i recall this story the dude that had stopped modding skyrim as he had lost interest was coming to back to make some money, last update on 5.1 that shows on nexus is 14:54, 18 August 2015

 

I accept its the "principle of it" but unless you are one of the peeps that have made one of those amazing pieces of work perhaps we should let the people that did, decide

 

Yeah yeah. Modding began as adding to or changing a game you love and sharing it with the community.

Now it's money money money give me money. Whatever.

 

Regardless, I don't care what the reasons are. When it comes to mods that fix what Bethesda broke or refuse to do, they (Bethesda) absolutely cannot be allowed to profit from it. If you can't see what a bad precident this will set then I don't know what to say.

 

I'm not going to diminish the great work modders have done, but anybody who tries to play the elitist game can pike right off. As a user I am every bit a part of the same modding community that the mod builders are and I will have my say.

It's bad enough I get treated like cattle by videogame publishers today without modders doing it too, thanks.

[serenad3]

I totally get that modders do great work, and work should be compensated. I respect modders, I'm not demanding free content, I'm not entitled to your content.

 

Maybe this is best for the overall playerbase, getting higher quality mods, modders get paid, everyone wins.

 

But I feel like, after spending $60 (+ official DLC which is usually like $30) and still needing to put more and more money into a game just to get the best version feels bad. Something about full price Triple-A games having tons of microtransactions feels off to me.

 

I don't really like this "Games as a platform" stuff, especially in single player, offline games.

 

Maybe I'm just too old now. I'm much more likely to stick to indies going forwards.

 

Hope it works out for everyone though.

[woodsman30]

My only question is Skyrim as in vanilla can't really run on PC unless it is tweeked "work of others not Bethesda". So how can they offer mods that can not be run unless the dependencies "work of others not Bethesda" are enacted? I recently tried to run a completely vanilla game on a different PC and it is all but unplayable ...CTD like every minute only after I tweeked the game was it able to be played.... Go figure. So it would seem they are banking on work of others literately.

[CaffeineHigh]

I miss the old days back in Oblivion when people mod'ed and used mods just because they loved it and created a great community out of that mutual love.  Everything was fine till Beth came along with all this talk of "mods on console" and "paid mods on the Workshop".  Fuckin' greed ruins everything.

[Zor2k13]

Vanilla skyrim without the unofficial patch and the enb boost mod or a properly setup enb mod is just total crap it will crash when it runs out of memory for textures or for some other reason in a short time. SkyrimSE will work just fine but that kind of fixed game will never be what they release. There will be bugs galore on every release and they just expect the unofficial patch team to just fix it every time. I hope that if arthmoor and co don't like what is going on with creation club they will simply refuse to fix anything when it comes out.

 

Beth needs the PC community to make the mods used by the console community so one cannot work with creation club and their scams without the other. Beth knows that nobody on pc would go along with this crap unless they were sufficiently bribed and that is easier to do these days considering how bad the money problems are for most people these days. People will do anything for money.

[Tex]

That pretty much sums it up.

[ralfetas]

I don'tt like creation club thing, but what i am more afraid is not the paid mods stuff, this will never be a huge problem, the biggest problem i see is, if they ask for example, 5 dollars for a mission or a new armor, why they would make DLC's or expand the game?

 

If they see this paid mods returning profit, the game content can be placed on second, why they will spend months of work on a DLC that will cost 20 dollars when you can just get a bunch of "modders" that will make a lot of nice horse armor that will be sold for 5 dollars? And all of that will be "official" content...

[zzz72w3r]

 

the number of Consoletards >>>>> PC players.

 

This is factually wrong. The PC market is stronger than the console market and has been for a few years now. As somebody phrased it, the PC vs console war is over. The PC won.

 

http://hexus.net/gaming/news/industry/83972-pc-games-sales-eclipse-value-console-games-sales-2016/

 

 

I wish people would stop citing those numbers.  It's practically fake news.  The numbers were framed entirely to entice gullible headlines and not taken seriously by industry or finance people. 

 

If you strip out what Chinese supposedly spend on free-to-play micro-transaction cons/swindles, which by the way is also highly suspect given unreliable statistics from China (over-reporting of box office receipts and video streaming ratings are common and sometimes inflated by 20x the real number), console games outsold PC 3:1.  Also keep in mind that both Playstation and Xbox were not available in China until last year due to global embargo.  Furthermore if we exclude MMO/MOBA, the number is closer to 5:1.  Oldrim is the most modded game in history which was exclusive to PC yet PC contribution to Oldrim "revenue" was something like ~17% (PC games have lower retail price and constant barrages of Steam sales).

[Serithi]

I'm just gonna leave this here. https://blarrghbofb.tumblr.com/post/161791839595/thoughts-on-creation-club-paid-mods

 

Seriously, read through it. All of it. My response is down at the bottom.

[Kimy]

 

 

the number of Consoletards >>>>> PC players.

 

This is factually wrong. The PC market is stronger than the console market and has been for a few years now. As somebody phrased it, the PC vs console war is over. The PC won.

 

http://hexus.net/gaming/news/industry/83972-pc-games-sales-eclipse-value-console-games-sales-2016/

 

 

I wish people would stop citing those numbers.  It's practically fake news.  The numbers were framed entirely to entice gullible headlines and not taken seriously by industry or finance people. 

 

If you strip out what Chinese supposedly spend on free-to-play micro-transaction cons/swindles, which by the way is also highly suspect given unreliable statistics from China (over-reporting of box office receipts and video streaming ratings are common and sometimes inflated by 20x the real number), console games outsold PC 3:1.  Also keep in mind that both Playstation and Xbox were not available in China until last year due to global embargo.  Furthermore if we exclude MMO/MOBA, the number is closer to 5:1.  Oldrim is the most modded game in history which was exclusive to PC yet PC contribution to Oldrim "revenue" was something like ~17% (PC games have lower retail price and constant barrages of Steam sales).

 

 

Matter of perspective. In my view, fake news is rather when you conveniently strip away contributing factors until the numbers suit your opinion, like you did. But even if you chose to neglect world's two biggest countries or certain business models that - like it or not - have become a major factor in total industry revenue, PC still gained -major- momentum against consoles in the past years. There is absolutely no way any serious publisher can neglect the PC market. And they in fact don't. Why we still see stuff like lame console UIs on PC is because consoles are still and always will be the least common denominator, and that's what you have to cater to if you want to deploy cross platform, which is the new industry norm. There aren't many games that don't run better on PCs as compared to consoles though, and in the past years, gamers have started to realize that the PC is just the superior platform. Which explains the resurgence of the PC just nicely.

[zzz72w3r]

 

 

 

the number of Consoletards >>>>> PC players.

 

This is factually wrong. The PC market is stronger than the console market and has been for a few years now. As somebody phrased it, the PC vs console war is over. The PC won.

 

http://hexus.net/gaming/news/industry/83972-pc-games-sales-eclipse-value-console-games-sales-2016/

 

 

I wish people would stop citing those numbers.  It's practically fake news.  The numbers were framed entirely to entice gullible headlines and not taken seriously by industry or finance people. 

 

If you strip out what Chinese supposedly spend on free-to-play micro-transaction cons/swindles, which by the way is also highly suspect given unreliable statistics from China (over-reporting of box office receipts and video streaming ratings are common and sometimes inflated by 20x the real number), console games outsold PC 3:1.  Also keep in mind that both Playstation and Xbox were not available in China until last year due to global embargo.  Furthermore if we exclude MMO/MOBA, the number is closer to 5:1.  Oldrim is the most modded game in history which was exclusive to PC yet PC contribution to Oldrim "revenue" was something like ~17% (PC games have lower retail price and constant barrages of Steam sales).

 

 

Matter of perspective. In my view, fake news is rather when you conveniently strip away contributing factors until the numbers suit your opinion, like you did. But even if you chose to neglect world's two biggest countries or certain business models that - like it or not - have become a major factor in total industry revenue, PC still gained -major- momentum against consoles in the past years. There is absolutely no way any serious publisher can neglect the PC market. And they in fact don't. Why we still see stuff like lame console UIs on PC is because consoles are still and always will be the least common denominator, and that's what you have to cater to if you want to deploy cross platform, which is the new industry norm. There aren't many games that don't run better on PCs as compared to consoles though, and in the past years, gamers have started to realize that the PC is just the superior platform. Which explains the resurgence of the PC just nicely.

 

 

The perspective argument is relevant only if you chose to ignore how publishers/developers should deploy their resources.  In that world there is only one acceptable perspective.  When game titles are isolated to genre and against what reported by publicly listed companies, PC game revenue lag significantly against consoles.  This hasn't and likely won't change drastically at least until we see what Microsoft does with Xbox/Windows10 convergence. 

 

While China does alter the equation what is happening in that market is not sustainable simply because consoles have not been sold there and what are played in Chinese PC are not playing anywhere else (most people suspect the Chinese sales figures and projections are very inflated).  As soon as iPhone was introduced in China iOS share quickly rose from zero to similar ratios elsewhere.  India for now we can ignore as its commercial share is not enough to tilt the global balance. 

 

Nevertheless PC is where innovation happens and with every new genre the platform has a monopoly which allows its share to fluctuate upward.  However once the said capability is introduced to consoles PC quickly lose ground to roughly around 20% share, usually less, much less and rarely more.  That PC seems like is getting more commercial attention besides Microsoft and particularly from Japanese developers/publishers who have long ignored the platform entirely is that as the pie got bigger even if PC remains the smallest piece, in absolute numbers it is financially becoming more attractive.  More importantly digital distribution was first adopted and now well established in PC which not only reduce risk of investing in PC ports but also attracted publishers into paying more attention to the massive potential of impulsive micro-transactions (Thanks, China).  Such profits can only be maximized if one has expertise in owning the chain, which is less favorable or even impossible in consoles for publishers.  The next gen discussion between publishers/developers/consoles will be very tense.  However, in a world where each big publisher has its own walled garden, does it matter if it is PC or console?  We are all fucked.  We hear of console hardware becoming more PC like but PC gaming is becoming more console like. 

 

Another threat to PC gaming which just commercially becoming more viable is mobile/console convergence.  It has been tried before halfheartedly by Sony and later within the Android ecosystem but not until Nintendo Switch do we have a bonafide experience.  Others will follow.  If Microsoft can't make Xbox/Windows10 convergence work (which will probably be Xbox-fication of PC from UWP rather than the other way around), consoles could take even more share of people's time and money from PC.

 

Industry wide micro-transactions will become more prevalent whether we like it or not.  It is about owning the chain and proprietary walled gardens.  PC vs. console is increasingly an outdated debate.

[Zor2k13]

Microsoft will always lag behind they always take too long to move and fail afterwards I don't think that will change possibly ever. I think they are more concerned with some other big plan that could involve getting out of the OS market and focusing on whatever they think is better to do like azure server and office perhaps they have some big plan in motion to catch up to amazon we won't know for sure until we see them move significantly but they either drag ass like usual or they are doing something big later on.

[Yami X]

Meh.....

 

This just like the cancer that exist now in gaming all starts out the same way this is nothing more than a gateway for these greedy companies to see just how much they can try to fuck you once again.......... but people keep accepting it and then have the nerve to wonder why gaming is in such a shit state. It's a bad joke.