Paid Modding is gone... or is it?

[Guest]

 

 

I made you guys a picture. Enjoy.

 

Mother of spoiler.

 

I loved that game though, buggy, but the best gaming experience I've had this year.

 

_{sorry about going off topic, just trying to lighten the mood.}

[Adam Jensen]

 

 

 

Either all of the insults and bickering were a product of my imagination and I been unknowingly in one serious bad trip for the past few days or there was in fact a lot of fighting.

Which is what I was referring to--the bickering was unnecessary and misdirected. The whole thing was painted as an "us" vs "them", which it never was to begin with. I never said they were made up, but that there was no real conflict. There was no fight because the other side never fought back. It was just a huge bullying campaign on the community's part (albeit, I 'll give exception to those who presented arguments in a civil and well-reasoned manner, but I can't say the same for the majority who did the mob-based name calling).

 

Which is precisely what caused the whole problem in the first place. People were afraid that this was going to create a divide between modders and stagnate many mods' development. Why? Again, because as we established before, this whole community is an interconnected web. Modding is a community where someone brings an idea to the table and someone else uses this idea or foundation to build their own ideas. Take for example loverslab itself:

 

FNIS > Sexlab > Sexlab Romance

 

Without FNIS there is no Sexlab. Without Sexlab there is no Sexlab Romance. 

 

People seemed to be afraid that with Steam's system, modders would gate mods that act as foundations to others, behind wall. They feared that this in turn would divide the community and ironically enough, in their haste to stop this, they burned a bunch of bridges.

Yes, this I understand wholeheartedly--which makes this what the topic of contention should be about, not whether or not someone is a traitor to the cause or if greed was an issue. Property rights are a valid argument for valid concern. This is what the issue should be about and we do not need a "war" to see that. And yes, that's what leaves me disappointed in the mess is that people had to burn those bridges, and for what?

 

I am not one to believe in conspiracy theories. I had at no point implied any of that.

Apologies if I gave you that impression. While I had quoted you to start off my response, I meant this in a broader sense based on the context of other messages I've read with people claiming mod authors and corporations are only doing this out of greed or some nefarious purpose. That in itself is a conspiracy theory.

 

What are you even talking about? You have taken my comment way out of context. I have created no narrative, nor have I even taken part of the damned thing. The only placed in which I haven commented about the matter is here, because frankly I didn't want to join the cesspool of hate that has overtaken the nexus and workshop in the past few days.

If I had taken you out of context, again, apologies as that was not my intention. When I said "you", it meant it in a more poetic way not literally you-you, but obviously that came out all wrong. I understand you were merely stating the obvious and I was trying to illustrate my observations by comparing them to yours, however it seems we have the same point of view on the matter. Thanks for the clarification.

 

I watched over the whole business and stood by silently for the most part. I don't believe in flaming people or harassing them and frankly I feel sorry for guys like Chesko.

Ditto that.

 

 

 

 

It seems we both actually agreed and that there was a misunderstanding in the way we expressed things. I apologize for any confusions I may have caused.

 

When I said the whole civil war, I meant the bickering, not that I personally support it. But in truth, it was more of a witch hunt than a civil war as those who made paid mods were practically given witch trials in which their reputations were scarred. 

 

Personally, I feel that this isn't as black and white as a lot of people have tried to make it be. I think that we need to establish some sort of neutral ground. I understand the modders need to make some degree of income and as a mod user, I also understand that we also have our limitations. But as long as both sides refuse to see the validity of the opposing argument, things will not get better.

 

With that said, I don't think the Steam Workshop was the best idea. There were a lot of concerns (some of which we discussed before) that simply made the system not viable. It doesn't help that modders were only getting a 25%. In my opinion, I think that we should focus on creating a patreon system where we pay the modders for their continuous labor, rather than for the mod itself. Another concern of mine, which I posted in another thread, was the usual entitled modder. We all know that there is always that one guy that downloads the mod, doesn't follow the instructions and then proceeds to act all entitled. I shudder to think how this kind of person would behave, had they paid for mods. This is why I think the patreon system works better, as you are paying the modder for their labor in general rather than the specific mod. 

 

In the end, I keep seeing people saying that we won, but after all the bickering and burned bridges I wonder if that's true.

 

PS: I apologize if my original reply was in any shape or form rude. I typed that quickly and I dunno if it came off rude. If so, I'm sorry!

[Aydoo]

 

 

 

Either all of the insults and bickering were a product of my imagination and I been unknowingly in one serious bad trip for the past few days or there was in fact a lot of fighting.

Which is what I was referring to--the bickering was unnecessary and misdirected. The whole thing was painted as an "us" vs "them", which it never was to begin with. I never said they were made up, but that there was no real conflict. There was no fight because the other side never fought back. It was just a huge bullying campaign on the community's part (albeit, I 'll give exception to those who presented arguments in a civil and well-reasoned manner, but I can't say the same for the majority who did the mob-based name calling).

 

Which is precisely what caused the whole problem in the first place. People were afraid that this was going to create a divide between modders and stagnate many mods' development. Why? Again, because as we established before, this whole community is an interconnected web. Modding is a community where someone brings an idea to the table and someone else uses this idea or foundation to build their own ideas. Take for example loverslab itself:

 

FNIS > Sexlab > Sexlab Romance

 

Without FNIS there is no Sexlab. Without Sexlab there is no Sexlab Romance. 

 

People seemed to be afraid that with Steam's system, modders would gate mods that act as foundations to others, behind wall. They feared that this in turn would divide the community and ironically enough, in their haste to stop this, they burned a bunch of bridges.

Yes, this I understand wholeheartedly--which makes this what the topic of contention should be about, not whether or not someone is a traitor to the cause or if greed was an issue. Property rights are a valid argument for valid concern. This is what the issue should be about and we do not need a "war" to see that. And yes, that's what leaves me disappointed in the mess is that people had to burn those bridges, and for what?

 

I am not one to believe in conspiracy theories. I had at no point implied any of that.

Apologies if I gave you that impression. While I had quoted you to start off my response, I meant this in a broader sense based on the context of other messages I've read with people claiming mod authors and corporations are only doing this out of greed or some nefarious purpose. That in itself is a conspiracy theory.

 

What are you even talking about? You have taken my comment way out of context. I have created no narrative, nor have I even taken part of the damned thing. The only placed in which I haven commented about the matter is here, because frankly I didn't want to join the cesspool of hate that has overtaken the nexus and workshop in the past few days.

If I had taken you out of context, again, apologies as that was not my intention. When I said "you", it meant it in a more poetic way not literally you-you, but obviously that came out all wrong. I understand you were merely stating the obvious and I was trying to illustrate my observations by comparing them to yours, however it seems we have the same point of view on the matter. Thanks for the clarification.

 

I watched over the whole business and stood by silently for the most part. I don't believe in flaming people or harassing them and frankly I feel sorry for guys like Chesko.

Ditto that.

 

 

 

 

It seems we both actually agreed and that there was a misunderstanding in the way we expressed things. I apologize for any confusions I may have caused.

 

When I said the whole civil war, I meant the bickering, not that I personally support it. But in truth, it was more of a witch hunt than a civil war as those who made paid mods were practically given witch trials in which their reputations were scarred. 

 

Personally, I feel that this isn't as black and white as a lot of people have tried to make it be. I think that we need to establish some sort of neutral ground. I understand the modders need to make some degree of income and as a mod user, I also understand that we also have our limitations. But as long as both sides refuse to see the validity of the opposing argument, things will not get better.

 

With that said, I don't think the Steam Workshop was the best idea. There were a lot of concerns (some of which we discussed before) that simply made the system not viable. It doesn't help that modders were only getting a 25%. In my opinion, I think that we should focus on creating a patreon system where we pay the modders for their continuous labor, rather than for the mod itself. Another concern of mine, which I posted in another thread, was the usual entitled modder. We all know that there is always that one guy that downloads the mod, doesn't follow the instructions and then proceeds to act all entitled. I shudder to think how this kind of person would behave, had they paid for mods. This is why I think the patreon system works better, as you are paying the modder for their labor in general rather than the specific mod. 

 

In the end, I keep seeing people saying that we won, but after all the bickering and burned bridges I wonder if that's true.

 

PS: I apologize if my original reply was in any shape or form rude. I typed that quickly and I dunno if it came off rude. If so, I'm sorry!

 

Which is illegal via Bethesda terms and services. Also Patreon takes a cut btw.

 

[Adam Jensen]

 

 

 

 

Either all of the insults and bickering were a product of my imagination and I been unknowingly in one serious bad trip for the past few days or there was in fact a lot of fighting.

Which is what I was referring to--the bickering was unnecessary and misdirected. The whole thing was painted as an "us" vs "them", which it never was to begin with. I never said they were made up, but that there was no real conflict. There was no fight because the other side never fought back. It was just a huge bullying campaign on the community's part (albeit, I 'll give exception to those who presented arguments in a civil and well-reasoned manner, but I can't say the same for the majority who did the mob-based name calling).

 

Which is precisely what caused the whole problem in the first place. People were afraid that this was going to create a divide between modders and stagnate many mods' development. Why? Again, because as we established before, this whole community is an interconnected web. Modding is a community where someone brings an idea to the table and someone else uses this idea or foundation to build their own ideas. Take for example loverslab itself:

 

FNIS > Sexlab > Sexlab Romance

 

Without FNIS there is no Sexlab. Without Sexlab there is no Sexlab Romance. 

 

People seemed to be afraid that with Steam's system, modders would gate mods that act as foundations to others, behind wall. They feared that this in turn would divide the community and ironically enough, in their haste to stop this, they burned a bunch of bridges.

Yes, this I understand wholeheartedly--which makes this what the topic of contention should be about, not whether or not someone is a traitor to the cause or if greed was an issue. Property rights are a valid argument for valid concern. This is what the issue should be about and we do not need a "war" to see that. And yes, that's what leaves me disappointed in the mess is that people had to burn those bridges, and for what?

 

I am not one to believe in conspiracy theories. I had at no point implied any of that.

Apologies if I gave you that impression. While I had quoted you to start off my response, I meant this in a broader sense based on the context of other messages I've read with people claiming mod authors and corporations are only doing this out of greed or some nefarious purpose. That in itself is a conspiracy theory.

 

What are you even talking about? You have taken my comment way out of context. I have created no narrative, nor have I even taken part of the damned thing. The only placed in which I haven commented about the matter is here, because frankly I didn't want to join the cesspool of hate that has overtaken the nexus and workshop in the past few days.

If I had taken you out of context, again, apologies as that was not my intention. When I said "you", it meant it in a more poetic way not literally you-you, but obviously that came out all wrong. I understand you were merely stating the obvious and I was trying to illustrate my observations by comparing them to yours, however it seems we have the same point of view on the matter. Thanks for the clarification.

 

I watched over the whole business and stood by silently for the most part. I don't believe in flaming people or harassing them and frankly I feel sorry for guys like Chesko.

Ditto that.

 

 

 

 

It seems we both actually agreed and that there was a misunderstanding in the way we expressed things. I apologize for any confusions I may have caused.

 

When I said the whole civil war, I meant the bickering, not that I personally support it. But in truth, it was more of a witch hunt than a civil war as those who made paid mods were practically given witch trials in which their reputations were scarred. 

 

Personally, I feel that this isn't as black and white as a lot of people have tried to make it be. I think that we need to establish some sort of neutral ground. I understand the modders need to make some degree of income and as a mod user, I also understand that we also have our limitations. But as long as both sides refuse to see the validity of the opposing argument, things will not get better.

 

With that said, I don't think the Steam Workshop was the best idea. There were a lot of concerns (some of which we discussed before) that simply made the system not viable. It doesn't help that modders were only getting a 25%. In my opinion, I think that we should focus on creating a patreon system where we pay the modders for their continuous labor, rather than for the mod itself. Another concern of mine, which I posted in another thread, was the usual entitled modder. We all know that there is always that one guy that downloads the mod, doesn't follow the instructions and then proceeds to act all entitled. I shudder to think how this kind of person would behave, had they paid for mods. This is why I think the patreon system works better, as you are paying the modder for their labor in general rather than the specific mod. 

 

In the end, I keep seeing people saying that we won, but after all the bickering and burned bridges I wonder if that's true.

 

PS: I apologize if my original reply was in any shape or form rude. I typed that quickly and I dunno if it came off rude. If so, I'm sorry!

 

Which is illegal via Bethesda terms and services. Also Patreon takes a cut btw.

 

 

 

Just trying to come up with ideas. I'm sure there must be a way, since Nexus has the donate option for modders. 

[Aydoo]

 

 

 

 

 

Either all of the insults and bickering were a product of my imagination and I been unknowingly in one serious bad trip for the past few days or there was in fact a lot of fighting.

Which is what I was referring to--the bickering was unnecessary and misdirected. The whole thing was painted as an "us" vs "them", which it never was to begin with. I never said they were made up, but that there was no real conflict. There was no fight because the other side never fought back. It was just a huge bullying campaign on the community's part (albeit, I 'll give exception to those who presented arguments in a civil and well-reasoned manner, but I can't say the same for the majority who did the mob-based name calling).

 

Which is precisely what caused the whole problem in the first place. People were afraid that this was going to create a divide between modders and stagnate many mods' development. Why? Again, because as we established before, this whole community is an interconnected web. Modding is a community where someone brings an idea to the table and someone else uses this idea or foundation to build their own ideas. Take for example loverslab itself:

 

FNIS > Sexlab > Sexlab Romance

 

Without FNIS there is no Sexlab. Without Sexlab there is no Sexlab Romance. 

 

People seemed to be afraid that with Steam's system, modders would gate mods that act as foundations to others, behind wall. They feared that this in turn would divide the community and ironically enough, in their haste to stop this, they burned a bunch of bridges.

Yes, this I understand wholeheartedly--which makes this what the topic of contention should be about, not whether or not someone is a traitor to the cause or if greed was an issue. Property rights are a valid argument for valid concern. This is what the issue should be about and we do not need a "war" to see that. And yes, that's what leaves me disappointed in the mess is that people had to burn those bridges, and for what?

 

I am not one to believe in conspiracy theories. I had at no point implied any of that.

Apologies if I gave you that impression. While I had quoted you to start off my response, I meant this in a broader sense based on the context of other messages I've read with people claiming mod authors and corporations are only doing this out of greed or some nefarious purpose. That in itself is a conspiracy theory.

 

What are you even talking about? You have taken my comment way out of context. I have created no narrative, nor have I even taken part of the damned thing. The only placed in which I haven commented about the matter is here, because frankly I didn't want to join the cesspool of hate that has overtaken the nexus and workshop in the past few days.

If I had taken you out of context, again, apologies as that was not my intention. When I said "you", it meant it in a more poetic way not literally you-you, but obviously that came out all wrong. I understand you were merely stating the obvious and I was trying to illustrate my observations by comparing them to yours, however it seems we have the same point of view on the matter. Thanks for the clarification.

 

I watched over the whole business and stood by silently for the most part. I don't believe in flaming people or harassing them and frankly I feel sorry for guys like Chesko.

Ditto that.

 

 

 

 

It seems we both actually agreed and that there was a misunderstanding in the way we expressed things. I apologize for any confusions I may have caused.

 

When I said the whole civil war, I meant the bickering, not that I personally support it. But in truth, it was more of a witch hunt than a civil war as those who made paid mods were practically given witch trials in which their reputations were scarred. 

 

Personally, I feel that this isn't as black and white as a lot of people have tried to make it be. I think that we need to establish some sort of neutral ground. I understand the modders need to make some degree of income and as a mod user, I also understand that we also have our limitations. But as long as both sides refuse to see the validity of the opposing argument, things will not get better.

 

With that said, I don't think the Steam Workshop was the best idea. There were a lot of concerns (some of which we discussed before) that simply made the system not viable. It doesn't help that modders were only getting a 25%. In my opinion, I think that we should focus on creating a patreon system where we pay the modders for their continuous labor, rather than for the mod itself. Another concern of mine, which I posted in another thread, was the usual entitled modder. We all know that there is always that one guy that downloads the mod, doesn't follow the instructions and then proceeds to act all entitled. I shudder to think how this kind of person would behave, had they paid for mods. This is why I think the patreon system works better, as you are paying the modder for their labor in general rather than the specific mod. 

 

In the end, I keep seeing people saying that we won, but after all the bickering and burned bridges I wonder if that's true.

 

PS: I apologize if my original reply was in any shape or form rude. I typed that quickly and I dunno if it came off rude. If so, I'm sorry!

 

Which is illegal via Bethesda terms and services. Also Patreon takes a cut btw.

 

 

 

Just trying to come up with ideas. I'm sure there must be a way, since Nexus has the donate option for modders. 

 

 

The donation is technically against the ToS too, if its directly involved with modding Skyrim. Bethesda doesn't challenge it because its hard to prove that the modder is directly profiting of the mod rather than people just giving the person money because they can.

 

Earning money off ANYTHING Skyrim is illegal. Bethesda owns the IP and earning money off their IP directly challenges their ownership of it. If I draw a picture of the iconic Dovahkiin, I can not sell it as "Skyrim's Dovahkiin" legally, since I don't own the license for that character. I have to sell it as, drawing of a guy in armor yelling whohappenstolooklikeskyrim'sdovahkiinplzdontsue.

 

This is why the workshop was a big deal. Bethesda was licensing out their IP for end users to profit from. This made a LEGAL avenue that users could gain money from their work. This was great, its just the implementation was absolute shit.

 

[rylasasin]

 

 

Even if you give 100% to the modders, that doesn't take away the fact that modders are making a profit, and creating a product to be sold rather than something to be enjoyed by all.

 

Now, I won't get into the idealism behind this. IE Modding is a hobby and should remain so. It's at the end of the day pointless and we've all heard it before. Instead I'll concentrate on the material, historical fact. The provable fact is, that the profit motive actually retards innovation, not encourages it. Contrary to popular belief. Especially for communities like this.

But you are ignoring the fact that no one is taking your free mods away. No one. You have a choice and you will still have a choice.

 

And I'm ignoring it because it is a complete Non Sequitur. This literally has nothing to do with my argument of how the profit motive retards creativity and innovation in these sorts of situations at all. Not to mention this is a Strawman because literally no one is arguing that they are going to take the free mods away.

 

(Even though it did result in people hiding their mods out of fear that they would be stolen, but I won't get into that because again, Non Sequitur.)

 

That's like me saying that you are ignoring the fact that the sky is blue and there is a floating tea pot in outer space. True or not it literally has nothing to do with anything.

 

You aren't off to a good start. I could stop you right here, but I'll keep going.

 

 

If you are scared that turning a profit kills innovation, then you forget the numerous advances in science, technology, history, and art where that was exactly the case.

First: Retards. Not Kills. There's a difference.

 

Secondly: Remind me where does most of the advances in science and technology come from, might I ask?

 

From government research programs and in universities. In other words: Entities with tons of taxpayer money to waste without having to worry about turning a profit.

 

Nice try, but you fail.

 

Oh, and how exactly does one "Advance" art? Or History? Seriously you aren't even making sense here.

 

 

No matter how much passion a person has, in the society we live in today, passion does not put food on the table and feed the family. If a modder decides to choose to make a mod project a full-time job instead of just a hobby, would you take that away from them? Have you no empathy for people wanting to take control of their own life and do something that they want to do? If you don't want to pay for their work, then don't. No one is forcing  you to. Find a free mod elsewhere.

 

Can we not have both options to choose from? Do you understand how this works?

 

 

This is another Non Sequitur. Whether I "want to take it away from them" or not, or whether I want to pay for their work or not is irrelevant. I merely point out why such a thing wouldn't work. It's hardly my fault if the material reality doesn't match your teary eyed idealism. If you're going to argue with me, at least have the common courtesy of actually addressing my arguments rather than pulling appeal to emotion talking points out of your ass.

 

Can we not argue against me rather than around me? Do you not understand how this works?

 

[Adam Jensen]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Either all of the insults and bickering were a product of my imagination and I been unknowingly in one serious bad trip for the past few days or there was in fact a lot of fighting.

Which is what I was referring to--the bickering was unnecessary and misdirected. The whole thing was painted as an "us" vs "them", which it never was to begin with. I never said they were made up, but that there was no real conflict. There was no fight because the other side never fought back. It was just a huge bullying campaign on the community's part (albeit, I 'll give exception to those who presented arguments in a civil and well-reasoned manner, but I can't say the same for the majority who did the mob-based name calling).

 

Which is precisely what caused the whole problem in the first place. People were afraid that this was going to create a divide between modders and stagnate many mods' development. Why? Again, because as we established before, this whole community is an interconnected web. Modding is a community where someone brings an idea to the table and someone else uses this idea or foundation to build their own ideas. Take for example loverslab itself:

 

FNIS > Sexlab > Sexlab Romance

 

Without FNIS there is no Sexlab. Without Sexlab there is no Sexlab Romance. 

 

People seemed to be afraid that with Steam's system, modders would gate mods that act as foundations to others, behind wall. They feared that this in turn would divide the community and ironically enough, in their haste to stop this, they burned a bunch of bridges.

Yes, this I understand wholeheartedly--which makes this what the topic of contention should be about, not whether or not someone is a traitor to the cause or if greed was an issue. Property rights are a valid argument for valid concern. This is what the issue should be about and we do not need a "war" to see that. And yes, that's what leaves me disappointed in the mess is that people had to burn those bridges, and for what?

 

I am not one to believe in conspiracy theories. I had at no point implied any of that.

Apologies if I gave you that impression. While I had quoted you to start off my response, I meant this in a broader sense based on the context of other messages I've read with people claiming mod authors and corporations are only doing this out of greed or some nefarious purpose. That in itself is a conspiracy theory.

 

What are you even talking about? You have taken my comment way out of context. I have created no narrative, nor have I even taken part of the damned thing. The only placed in which I haven commented about the matter is here, because frankly I didn't want to join the cesspool of hate that has overtaken the nexus and workshop in the past few days.

If I had taken you out of context, again, apologies as that was not my intention. When I said "you", it meant it in a more poetic way not literally you-you, but obviously that came out all wrong. I understand you were merely stating the obvious and I was trying to illustrate my observations by comparing them to yours, however it seems we have the same point of view on the matter. Thanks for the clarification.

 

I watched over the whole business and stood by silently for the most part. I don't believe in flaming people or harassing them and frankly I feel sorry for guys like Chesko.

Ditto that.

 

 

 

 

It seems we both actually agreed and that there was a misunderstanding in the way we expressed things. I apologize for any confusions I may have caused.

 

When I said the whole civil war, I meant the bickering, not that I personally support it. But in truth, it was more of a witch hunt than a civil war as those who made paid mods were practically given witch trials in which their reputations were scarred. 

 

Personally, I feel that this isn't as black and white as a lot of people have tried to make it be. I think that we need to establish some sort of neutral ground. I understand the modders need to make some degree of income and as a mod user, I also understand that we also have our limitations. But as long as both sides refuse to see the validity of the opposing argument, things will not get better.

 

With that said, I don't think the Steam Workshop was the best idea. There were a lot of concerns (some of which we discussed before) that simply made the system not viable. It doesn't help that modders were only getting a 25%. In my opinion, I think that we should focus on creating a patreon system where we pay the modders for their continuous labor, rather than for the mod itself. Another concern of mine, which I posted in another thread, was the usual entitled modder. We all know that there is always that one guy that downloads the mod, doesn't follow the instructions and then proceeds to act all entitled. I shudder to think how this kind of person would behave, had they paid for mods. This is why I think the patreon system works better, as you are paying the modder for their labor in general rather than the specific mod. 

 

In the end, I keep seeing people saying that we won, but after all the bickering and burned bridges I wonder if that's true.

 

PS: I apologize if my original reply was in any shape or form rude. I typed that quickly and I dunno if it came off rude. If so, I'm sorry!

 

Which is illegal via Bethesda terms and services. Also Patreon takes a cut btw.

 

 

 

Just trying to come up with ideas. I'm sure there must be a way, since Nexus has the donate option for modders. 

 

 

The donation is technically against the ToS too, if its directly involved with modding Skyrim. Bethesda doesn't challenge it because its hard to prove that the modder is directly profiting of the mod rather than people just giving the person money because they can.

 

Earning money off ANYTHING Skyrim is illegal. Bethesda owns the IP and earning money off their IP directly challenges their ownership of it. If I draw a picture of the iconic Dovahkiin, I can not sell it as "Skyrim's Dovahkiin" legally, since I don't own the license for that character. I have to sell it as, drawing of a guy in armor yelling whohappenstolooklikeskyrim'sdovahkiinplzdontsue.

 

This is why the workshop was a big deal. Bethesda was licensing out their IP for end users to profit from. This made a LEGAL avenue that users could gain money from their work. This was great, its just the implementation was absolute shit.

 

 

 

I have to agree with that. The main problem here is without a doubt the implementation. Especially on an already established game. I think they will end up bringing it back for FO4 and TES6, in which case, I hope the implementation and percentage given to the modder end up being better. 

[DoctaSax]

And remind me where does most of the advances in science and technology come from, might I ask?

 

From government research programs and in universities. In other words: Entities with tons of taxpayer money to waste without having to worry about turning a profit.

 

Nice try, but you fail.

Professors don't work for free.

Professors also don't work for the money alone, but get paid all the same.

Grad students of course are fucked

 

 

[Aydoo]

 

Oh, and how exactly does one "Advance" art?

 

You've never taken an Art History class in your life have you?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_movement

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_history

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_of_Europe

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Eastern_art

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avant-garde

 

Here's some good places to start reading.

[Yami X]

It seems like a lot of people are in this thread are actually asshurt this was taken down.........cry more

[Nepro]

 

And remind me where does most of the advances in science and technology come from, might I ask?

 

From government research programs and in universities. In other words: Entities with tons of taxpayer money to waste without having to worry about turning a profit.

 

Nice try, but you fail.

Professors don't work for free.

Professors also don't work for the money alone, but get paid all the same.

Grad students of course are fucked

 

 

 

Professors get paid less than New York City garbageman. My American History professor used to be garbageman.

 

[DoctaSax]

Professors get paid less than New York City garbageman. My American History professor used to be garbageman.

That's just not right. Of course, it's NYC garbage - hazard pay?

[rylasasin]

 

 

Oh, and how exactly does one "Advance" art?

 

You've never taken an Art History class in your life have you?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_movement

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_history

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_of_Europe

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Eastern_art

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avant-garde

 

Here's some good places to start reading.

 

 

Still doesn't really make much sense in the context of "Advancing art" in the same way as advancing technology and science. And certainly isn't because "lawl profit motive".

[afa]

So the whole thing would have fell through if only the pot was sweeter?

[guk]

Take for example loverslab itself:

FNIS > Sexlab > Sexlab Romance

Without FNIS there is no Sexlab. Without Sexlab there is no Sexlab Romance.

Damn, is that really so interdependent and complicated what we're doing here?

Just made a fact check and result was this:

 

 

 

Note: Still in Beta, there could be bugs ;-)

 

__________

 

 

 

 

"Frankly, if they had written and released that blog piece when they'd first announced the paid workshop functionality then it would have helped to alleviate some of my fears."[/size]

 

That's Dark0ne over at Nexus trying to cover his well-pounded ass after he bought into the modding for money scam.

http://www.nexusmods.com/games/news/12464/?

 

'Fears'?  What fucking fears?  They sent him a proposal and a contract and he agreed to all of it for the sake of honorable mention as a service provider and few sheckles in his coffers.  He wasn't concerned, other than being worried that people would find out what he was doing...and they did.  That's when he started lying and then justifying.  He's a quivering tower of Jello and I have as much sympathy for him as I do the modders who tried to cash in...and that's fucking none.  These assholes were actually going resurrect mods they had abandoned and TRY to charge for updated versions.  Nevermind the downloaders and fans who made the mods 'worthy' of Valve's attention.  'Fuck the fans who got me here.  PAY ME.'  It was that or they were going to charge for content they didn't make to begin with.

 

But it's obvious backbone isn't in short supply in the Skyrim modding scene.  The Alliance and silverlock both told Valve to get stuffed and so did about 90% of the modders out there who raised The Nine Layers of Hell to put a stop to it.  They are the real heros in all of this and it will be THEM who continue to mod.  Can't say as much for the butt-hurt babies who ragequit after the fans they turned on turned on them.  People can hate the haters and defend the assholes who tried to charge for things they have no business charging for, but at the end of the day the haters will be the ones still standing.  Not to worry though, the modders who wanted to charge for content will probably get their chance when the next game is released.  Then all of the justifiers can be happy when they get to pay for mods that should be free and the rest of us get fucked.

 

Modders have no business being in cahoots with big corporations.  Modders are hobbists, not devs, not professionals or anything else.  Just look at the payout scheme and the gerbil wheel mentality of Bethesda and Valve.  Modders would have gotten a percentage of a percentage and Bethesda/Valve would have gotten to keep all of the profits and all of the interest until a modder breaks the magical $100.00 mark.  And then they would be paid in Steam Dollars; a currency Valve sets the value on.    Who the fuck in their right mind would sign on for something like that?  I'll tell you who, modders who don't have an inkling as to what corporations really are or how they really work.  They have no idea how to enter into a negotiation, how the Commercial Law League operates or what their rights are.  Just sign the e-document and watch the big modding bucks roll in.  That's how clueless these people are.

 

Like Animal Mother said in Full Metal Jacket, 'Better you than me."

 

 

Kendo! Who would have thought i would ever 99.9% agree on something you said

 

And then they would be paid in Steam Dollars; a currency Valve sets the value on. Who the fuck in their right mind would sign on for something like that?

Why did i just think of the Arch-Capitalist Jeremiah Fink from Bioshock Infinite? Who only "pays in Fink Tokens, only valid at the Fink Company store".

 

But AFAIK the authors actually should have been paid directly to a PayPal account, it's the customers who only get a refund in Fink Bucks Steam Bucks.

Of course after gabe tax, PayPal cut and real tax, there's practically nothing left anyways. And users asking for too many refunds got banned for "abuse".

[jacques00]

When I said the whole civil war, I meant the bickering, not that I personally support it. But in truth, it was more of a witch hunt than a civil war as those who made paid mods were practically given witch trials in which their reputations were scarred.

I agree that it was way more of a witch hunt than it was any kind of legitimate conflict, even if some reasonable debates came out of it. It was just two companies making a rushed decision leading to a failed campaign, and it is the companies and the participating mod authors who got the blame for it all, not the organizers of the campaigns themselves. Furthermore, if the business model wasn't dropped, it seemed like the majority didn't want to pull the weight and make it better as a community should. They just outright rejected it altogether without any suggestions for improvements (again, with exception of the few level-headed thinkers amongst the crowd of angry mobsters).

 

Personally, I feel that this isn't as black and white as a lot of people have tried to make it be. I think that we need to establish some sort of neutral ground. I understand the modders need to make some degree of income and as a mod user, I also understand that we also have our limitations. But as long as both sides refuse to see the validity of the opposing argument, things will not get better.

And this is why we need people who can rationalize the situation to be at the forefront, not the one who screams the loudest. I'm all for some form of consensus, but in this particular event, it seems everyone was too quick to judge: Valve and Bethesda inferring how the modding community thinks, and the modding community inferring how Valve and Bethesda thinks. If representatives of all sides got together and worked out a game plan, it would have gone a hell of a lot more smoothly than this.

 

With that said, I don't think the Steam Workshop was the best idea. There were a lot of concerns (some of which we discussed before) that simply made the system not viable. It doesn't help that modders were only getting a 25%. In my opinion, I think that we should focus on creating a patreon system where we pay the modders for their continuous labor, rather than for the mod itself. Another concern of mine, which I posted in another thread, was the usual entitled modder. We all know that there is always that one guy that downloads the mod, doesn't follow the instructions and then proceeds to act all entitled. I shudder to think how this kind of person would behave, had they paid for mods. This is why I think the patreon system works better, as you are paying the modder for their labor in general rather than the specific mod. 

Well, in this instance, yea, Steam... Valve... Bethesda... what the heck were you guys thinking?

 

A rushed job is a botched job.

 

When Valve does something wrong, it's pretty obvious. But when they do something right, there'll be a lot of positive kudos thrown their way. Buried in this topic somewhere I suggested a contest to help with their promotion of a paid-mod section in the Workshop. This would  have been one of the better options than an ambush/surprise campaign. I've seen it work for their Dota 2 + Polycount promotion a couple years back, but they obviously didn't put the same amount of thought, effort, and faith into this particular campaign. Pity, really.

 

I'm all for voluntary donations, so that's cool. While I also don't agree with the splits, if it's what you understood and agreed to, you really can't complain about the outcome. But if the free market wants it changed, well it'll change with the numbers push it that way. Entitlement is always an issue, and I've seen too much of that already... But yes, Patreon, and Donate buttons are good alternatives if you want money to go directly to the mod author, however there are also benefits to having a unified store for content as well. And there is totally nothing wrong with both methods of transactions coexisting.

 

In the end, I keep seeing people saying that we won, but after all the bickering and burned bridges I wonder if that's true.

Thus the "hollow victory" as it were... Which is another reason why I can't consider this a war at all, all facts considered.

 

PS: I apologize if my original reply was in any shape or form rude. I typed that quickly and I dunno if it came off rude. If so, I'm sorry!

No prob, I know you meant well, so no offense taken here. Thanks for the clarifications though!

 

[Adam Jensen]

 

Take for example loverslab itself:

FNIS > Sexlab > Sexlab Romance

Without FNIS there is no Sexlab. Without Sexlab there is no Sexlab Romance.

Damn, is that really so interdependent and complicated what we're doing here?

Just made a fact check and result was this:

 

 

 

Note: Still in Beta, there could be bugs ;-)

 

__________

 

 

 

 

"Frankly, if they had written and released that blog piece when they'd first announced the paid workshop functionality then it would have helped to alleviate some of my fears."[/size]

 

That's Dark0ne over at Nexus trying to cover his well-pounded ass after he bought into the modding for money scam.

http://www.nexusmods.com/games/news/12464/?

 

'Fears'?  What fucking fears?  They sent him a proposal and a contract and he agreed to all of it for the sake of honorable mention as a service provider and few sheckles in his coffers.  He wasn't concerned, other than being worried that people would find out what he was doing...and they did.  That's when he started lying and then justifying.  He's a quivering tower of Jello and I have as much sympathy for him as I do the modders who tried to cash in...and that's fucking none.  These assholes were actually going resurrect mods they had abandoned and TRY to charge for updated versions.  Nevermind the downloaders and fans who made the mods 'worthy' of Valve's attention.  'Fuck the fans who got me here.  PAY ME.'  It was that or they were going to charge for content they didn't make to begin with.

 

But it's obvious backbone isn't in short supply in the Skyrim modding scene.  The Alliance and silverlock both told Valve to get stuffed and so did about 90% of the modders out there who raised The Nine Layers of Hell to put a stop to it.  They are the real heros in all of this and it will be THEM who continue to mod.  Can't say as much for the butt-hurt babies who ragequit after the fans they turned on turned on them.  People can hate the haters and defend the assholes who tried to charge for things they have no business charging for, but at the end of the day the haters will be the ones still standing.  Not to worry though, the modders who wanted to charge for content will probably get their chance when the next game is released.  Then all of the justifiers can be happy when they get to pay for mods that should be free and the rest of us get fucked.

 

Modders have no business being in cahoots with big corporations.  Modders are hobbists, not devs, not professionals or anything else.  Just look at the payout scheme and the gerbil wheel mentality of Bethesda and Valve.  Modders would have gotten a percentage of a percentage and Bethesda/Valve would have gotten to keep all of the profits and all of the interest until a modder breaks the magical $100.00 mark.  And then they would be paid in Steam Dollars; a currency Valve sets the value on.    Who the fuck in their right mind would sign on for something like that?  I'll tell you who, modders who don't have an inkling as to what corporations really are or how they really work.  They have no idea how to enter into a negotiation, how the Commercial Law League operates or what their rights are.  Just sign the e-document and watch the big modding bucks roll in.  That's how clueless these people are.

 

Like Animal Mother said in Full Metal Jacket, 'Better you than me."

 

 

Kendo! Who would have thought i would ever 99.9% agree on something you said

 

And then they would be paid in Steam Dollars; a currency Valve sets the value on. Who the fuck in their right mind would sign on for something like that?

Why did i just think of the Arch-Capitalist Jeremiah Fink from Bioshock Infinite? Who only "pays in Fink Tokens, only valid at the Fink Company store".

 

But AFAIK the authors actually should have been paid directly to a PayPal account, it's the customers who only get a refund in Fink Bucks Steam Bucks.

Of course after gabe tax, PayPal cut and real tax, there's practically nothing left anyways. And users asking for too many refunds got banned for "abuse".

 

 

Excellent diagram. My example was brief, but I had forgotten about all the other stuff that is needed to make sexlab run and to add the bells and whistles. You could also add the things that run in parallel but compliment sexlab, like Zaz Animations, Devious Devices, Death Alternative, Sanguine, etc. 

[afa]

Funny thing about something I heard regarding the steam wallet thing. Valve can not both accept and dish out actual currency. Nor could the "wallet" figure be actual money. Once that happens they are a bank which is something entirely different.

...there are however some weird money laundering trick that people do to cash out that money.

Crazy world we live in.

 

Also if FNIS had a role in shutting this whole thing down, isn't that kind of ironic since FNIS was necessary because there was no way to hack in animations into the game using the CK.

[guk]

Excellent diagram. My example was brief, but I had forgotten about all the other stuff that is needed to make sexlab run and to add the bells and whistles. You could also add the things that run in parallel but compliment sexlab, like Zaz Animations, Devious Devices, Death Alternative, Sanguine, etc.

Yea i only put in the pure backbone, plus body replacers which i guess everyone has installed

 

The rest should run under "SexLab Plugins" with possibly more arrows towards FNIS and/or others.

[ratrace]

That's why you don't pre-order or do a release day purchase.  You wait until their BS construction set for the new game is released and decide if they deserve you hard-earned money or not.  There is no way Bethesda can't know they put out inferior games and the ONLY reason the PC market picks them up is so they can be freely modded.  If modding comes with a pricetag it will not only wreck modding but also their bottom line.  If I can't fix a Bethesda game there's no point in buying and I know I'm not alone on that.  Pretty sure the decision makers at Bethesda understand that now.

 

 

 

I couldn't agree more. Beth vanilla games are not even mediocre. They're moddiing frameworks. And there's no reason whatsoever to be a Beth fanboy or even like their games as they come out of the box. But what the modders make of their crippleware - that's what I always went for. If that is no more possible, I won't shed a tear. Because as I said - Beth vanilla games are just crap.

 

And furthermore I agree strongley to put an end to pre-ordering games. Just for some ridiculous trash trinkets? A miniature Skyrim word wall? A weapon? A fucking map? Spend your money on something valuable. Don't let marketing douchebags make a fool of you.

[Aydoo]

 

 

 

Oh, and how exactly does one "Advance" art?

 

You've never taken an Art History class in your life have you?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_movement

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_history

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_of_Europe

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Eastern_art

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avant-garde

 

Here's some good places to start reading.

 

 

Still doesn't really make much sense in the context of "Advancing art" in the same way as advancing technology and science. And certainly isn't because "lawl profit motive".

 

 

Science and Technology have advanced BECAUSE of Art before. Art is a super broad term that describes many disciplines.

 

Something that's rather close to home and more recent:

 

Alan Turing, a British mathematician, developed a theoretical computer chess program as an example of machine intelligence. In 1947, Turing wrote the theory for a program to play chess.

 

And before you say, "but but but Aydoo-sempai that was a game!" Are you saying that Video Games are not Art?

 

[DDproductions83]

Oh man, I have missed some good reading up in here, honestly been too busy inciting rage and hatred and activists the last few days to take the time to read some of this

 

VIVA LA REVOLUTION!

 

One caveat, I like facts to be facts, they did get direct money directly into their bank accounts (confirmed from multiple patsys), it was BUYERS who got F'd and got refunds with steam bucks

 

And to the people who say "We lost the community blah blah" Well, nope still here it seems. 

 

As for modders who got targeted on witch hunts, beth/valve used them as fodder, willing patsys to take the bullets. I personally only targeted those who took the barrel of my gun that was aimed at beth, and shoved it down their own throats gurgling "Shuut me". Chesko was not one and I kind of feel bad he got that much, arthmoor and shezre on the other hand kept choking on the barrel as much as I tried to get it out of their mouths, in some cases they pulled the trigger for me after i put the gun down. 

 

Copy post i made for lulz

 

 

------------

 

War. War never changes.

 

The Romans waged war to gather slaves and wealth. Spain built an empire from its lust for gold and territory. Hitler shaped a battered Germany into an economic superpower.

 

But war never changes.

 

In the 21st century, war was still waged over the resources that could be acquired. Only this time, the spoils of war were also its mods: texture replacers and waifu characters alike. For these resources, Steam would monetize at 30%, the Bethesda would cash in at 45%, and the Modders themselves would dissolve into quarreling, bickering nation-states, bent on controlling the last remaining mods on Earth.

 

In 2015, the storm of mod war had come again. In four brief days, most of the modding community was reduced to cinders. And from the ashes of nuclear devastation, a new civilization would struggle to arise.

 

A few were able to reach the relative safety of the large underground Vaults. Your family was not part of that group that entered Vault Thirteen. They had to fight and bleed and die on the reddit and miscellaneous forum battlegrounds. The modders eventually won the war, but at what cost.

 

Life in the Nexus is about to change.

 

War. War never changes

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

----------------------------

Cost was WURF! Just thought I would reword that beautiful intro. 

 

 

[afa]

I would never buy a TES game before mods that are relevant to my interests even come out. Unless the core game really interests me, but so far none of them have. Not a dis against the game, they are fine, and I respect what they are trying to do, but that's just how I roll.

 

However something to consider about this "leaving the game for modder to fix" line of thoughts

So far the "free mods support" sort of have been a back of the box quote, it is a positive aspect that instill some sort confidence that even if the menu is fucked, even if there are bugs there will be free patches and mods as add-on.

Right now many would argue the vanilla game is still buggy, but we sort of look the other way because free unofficial patches exist.

 

However if mods have to be paid I feel like this is something that players will no give them a pass on, and that is something Bethesda will have to address themselves. If they will do it in this hypothetical scenario is of course up for debate, but in some sense the core game will need to be of higher quality and more onus will be put on them regarding the vanilla game.

[Yami X]

I think almost everyone feels bad for chesko at this point.

[Aurora95]

Woooooo!!

 

I woke up in a bad mood today but this has cheered me up and made my day