Sims Spam - Again ...

[ghostwalkr]

12 hours ago, FacialLinks said:

This site just does not care, it is mostly a sims spam site.

Still having a little bit of real modders. But most of them went to other sites already.

How is possible that this site is maintained with just 2 and half moderators?

Rules? Last time they updated I was still doing sex (yeah, I am fucking old.)

If you have such a strong opinion on how bad LL has become, then why stay?

 

[davisev5225]

5 hours ago, Blaze69 said:

But I'm also not (too) dumb so I'm fully aware greed and blatant paywall shilling is deeply entwined with Sims modding as a whole so doing that would probably have a lot of drawbacks.

 

That itself is the problem.  The Sims as a game (and its modding system as a whole) caters to people who can barely operate a computer.  CAS creators know that, so they monetize the hell out of their low-effort work because they know the Luddites will pay.  That's why seemingly every Sims uploader is in an arms race to keep their name visible everywhere - greed and shamelessly taking advantage of the type of player that likes The Sims.

 

@Ashal I know I don't have much room to talk here (since I'm not a subscriber), but I do have to ask: are ANY of the Sims uploaders subscribed to your SubscribeStar?  How does the subscriber percentage compare to other games & categories?  I'd be willing to bet that the Sims doesn't bring much revenue beyond ad impressions, and we all know those rarely pay the bills by themselves...

Edited August 10, 2024 by davisev5225

[Wandering_Mania]

9 hours ago, Ashal said:

Are you seriously judging us based on the fact that "2.5 moderators" have been enough to maintain the site's current moderation needs for the past months?

Here's my 'judgment':

I think you guys have been doing an excellent job.

 

I've personally seen a lot worse, on much larger platforms, like Steam. The customer abuse that takes place there, and the number of 'perma-bans for nothing burgers' doled out is  truly mind boggling. Not trying to look like an 'ass kisser' here, but the truth sometimes looks just like that.

 

But anyway, I do kinda find it a bit tiring to see the 'new files' and 'new topics' always filled with nothing but Sims. 'Low effort' or not, that's a matter of perspective, and completely subjective, so I ain't touching that. But that 'custom files/topics' setting, this is the first time I've heard of it as well. Maybe make it's location a bit more out in the open? Like in the profile settings or something?

 

Example:

"From what games/topics do you want to see"

With a bunch of check boxes listed.

 

I don't know. I'm not too proficient with how the 'back end' of all this works. But those are just my opinions/thoughts on the matter, so take them for what you will.

[davisev5225]

Speaking of low effort... here we have a single outfit, and for even lower effort, SWATCHES for character customization.  Each of them uploaded as a separate download in order to increase visibility.

 

 

And whoops, there it is.  🙄

 

 

Edited August 11, 2024 by davisev5225

[Neodarkside]

On 8/10/2024 at 6:32 AM, Blaze69 said:

Re: Patreon shilling, if it was up to me I'd just ban any Patreon advertisement whatsoever, other than LL's own of course (because the site needs to be up for people to continue posting mods). Alternatively, ban any Patreon advertisement for Sims mods in particular, since those are the real issue IMO; not that there aren't greedy slobs making low-quality/effort mods as blatant shilling of their paywall in other games, but in this specific case they are the worst offenders here.

 

I'm in the same boat as you and would love to hit the Ban all Patreon for Sims content, but there will always be an issue doing that. We do have some amazing Animations creators, and I'd rather not cause them to flat out leave. So for me I'd ban Patreon for CAS only, the content they are posting to it isn't theirs, its a mix from several dozen OTHER content creator, some of whom post it for free AND state, DO NOT REPOST TO PATREON. Which they ignore and make money off.

[Ashal]

As promised, I've worked on a no low-effort uploads rule, so here's a rough draft of the new proposed rule. I want to run it by the people of this thread to get feedback before officially implementing it. Let me know if you think it sounds clear and written in a way that sounds fair and if you have any suggestions or additions you think should be included with it.

 

 

Quote

 

To help maintain a higher quality standard on submissions, all file submissions must include a detailed description, clear installation instructions, and at least one screenshot or other visual aid showcasing the mod. Submissions should also provide compatibility information when applicable to ensure users can easily use your mod and credit any relevant included assets that are not their own.

 

Uploads with placeholders or lacking any of the aforementioned relevant information may be removed without notice or warning. Please ensure your upload details are complete and informative at the time of upload to contribute positively to our community.

 

 

 

Once the rule is officially implemented, I'll likely issue a sitewide notice that it'll be applied to any content going forward and that after some amount of time, I'm thinking one month, it will begin to apply retroactively to existing uploads as well. The main issue is that I'd want to give some time to the existing content to get itself in line with the rule or be backed up by the author before being removed.

 

I'd also like to work out "minor files" being grouped into collections instead of individual files, but I think I'll write that as a separate additional rule. It's a bit more complicated, as I think implementing it the right way will require contacting relevant uploaders and working out details with them.

[Twycross448]

@Ashal

 

1. Sounds good for a first draft. But please allow one question. How will any rule change affect mods than still work but whose creators have left modding behind by now (or stopped coming online for any other reason)? Skyrim in particular is likely to have such "legacy" mods in its section.

 

2. Seeing some of the Sims 4 creators do giant advertisment sections for their paywall compared to the actual content they offer as an appetizer, I would suggest including a size limit of some kind. For example:

 

"Advertizing your *insert-Paywall-name-here* page is permitted, but cannot exceed 10% of the mod description. Listings (for example listing every single animation included in a pack) do not count towards the length of the description in this regard."

 

Just some early morning ponderings. ^_^"

[Maglog]

Sorry to interrupt, but i was reeding this for a couple of days already, and decided to write opinion (since this topic becoming a rule making) from the "simmers" side, so to say. Because it is clear for me that this topic is started by non S4 gamers mostly and i'm aware that LL was beginning as platform for TES players (which i and other S4 players also play, personally played since TES III).

 

In MyOp person who started this topic and those who followed has no comprehension on the subject (no offence intended), which is clear to me by general statements like making sims is a "low effort" work and it's annoying to see those to bump up all the time. It actually takes a lot of creativity and time. Of course no coding or other "progressive" work is in it, but sometimes it also is (like when sim creators make, edit CC and etc. for their sims in order to make them more unique).

 

Some of the works on TS4 (sims) - i don't like, most probably some people don't like mine, and scrolling through all the creations and forums (if you are in search) is a bit (really 🤏) annoying. But this site has done it pretty easy and smart, we have search engine (which works really good), diversification and categories on main page + the upper right side of LL (if needed to separate search and so on). A lot of us - simmers, for example, don't like seeing all those beasties XXX photos which are mostly connected to TES players now. It's okay if people like it, we don't interfere, so i think that it would be nice if other game players would also show some sort of gamers courtesy - in same way.

 

From buisness side (this side was also raised here), even if there are a lot of non direct (non paying) supporters in LL S4 community - they bring views, croud and other attention to LL, which i think is better when 0. I don't have the statistics, but something tells me that TS4 players / visitors are around here more - hence their input (direct or indirect) for LL's growth should be bigger (there are more S4 related uploads - accroding to this topic) or at the same level at least. And don't think that TES indirect supporters base is lesser tbh.

 

Point's are:

 

2 hours ago, Ashal said:

As promised, I've worked on a no low-effort uploads rule, so here's a rough draft of the new proposed rule. I want to run it by the people of this thread to get feedback before officially implementing it. Let me know if you think it sounds clear and written in a way that sounds fair and if you have any suggestions or additions you think should be included with it.

 

Once the rule is officially implemented, I'll likely issue a sitewide notice that it'll be applied to any content going forward and that after some amount of time, I'm thinking one month, it will begin to apply retroactively to existing uploads as well. The main issue is that I'd want to give some time to the existing content to get itself in line with the rule or be backed up by the author before being removed.

 

I'd also like to work out "minor files" being grouped into collections instead of individual files, but I think I'll write that as a separate additional rule. It's a bit more complicated, as I think implementing it the right way will require contacting relevant uploaders and working out details with them.

 

 👆don't think that this additional rule is needed, it will make process harder and confusing - specially if you make it retrospective (as was stated some creators are absent, their works might be lost, keeping their files on LL serves archives purpose - great thing). + generally and by intuition most of the uploaders are following this already (giving the proper description or trying to do so). Anyway, since i have a chance - one thing i would like to ask / propose about this: "may be removed without notice or warning". It's always better and would be welcomed (i think from anyone here) if you would actually write a notice to person whos contect you are going to delete, giving them chance to understand and/or to comply. Using this situation because, for example, we have worked a lot on making to come back one of well known and great sims creators to start him uploading sims again for all here. But our work went to ashes since one day his uploading page was deleted - and he doesn't know why. I understand that you are busy and this takes time to implement, but it would help to harmonize coexistence on LL💯. + tbh, don't know if my files would pass the proposed rule exam. You can visit my uploading page, downloads are separated according to their theme (btw all of the sims are under one thread, but it's not everybody's way) and i don't know, for example, how would management react on the description part - but one thing i can tell, that it never caused any probs, no one asked how to download this and that (from first guess - description serves this purposes), and can't remember if something similar has occurred with other sims uploads or it couldn't be dealt with by simple additional asking.  

 

1 hour ago, Twycross448 said:

@Ashal

 

1. Sounds good for a first draft. But please allow one question. How will any rule change affect mods than still work but whose creators have left modding behind by now (or stopped coming online for any other reason)? Skyrim in particular is likely to have such "legacy" mods in its section.

 

2. Seeing some of the Sims 4 creators do giant advertisment sections for their paywall compared to the actual content they offer as an appetizer, I would suggest including a size limit of some kind. For example:

 

"Advertizing your *insert-Paywall-name-here* page is permitted, but cannot exceed 10% of the mod description. Listings (for example listing every single animation included in a pack) do not count towards the length of the description in this regard."

 

Just some early morning ponderings. ^_^"

 👆agree with Twycross here - actual problem (which is breaking already made up rules on LL) is "major advertising", and he proposed a good way of making it to go away: "Advertizing your *insert-Paywall-name-here* page is permitted, but cannot exceed 10% of the mod description". We all know that posting / uploading on LL (since it has a huge auditory) is actually used by those Patreon palls. But there are some who upload and only propose to make them donations (without making it mandatory aka support me if you like / feel so - basically free or not related to uploads), or simply free patreons (yeah, i know a couple), and only part who puts their creations behind paywall. But even if so, the thing that seems to be unseeing / missing here - it's both sided road since they also bring people to LL.

 

p/s: also sorry for long comment and have a nice time of day or night you all! after p/s: i'm not a canadian))

Spoiler

 

 

       

[belegost]

2 hours ago, Twycross448 said:

Skyrim in particular is likely to have such "legacy" mods in its section.

Skyrim is not an issue here.

[Maglog]

38 minutes ago, belegost said:

Skyrim is not an issue here.

Those are going to be general rules (as is), Skyrim’s uploads included, and it’s going to be issue afters

[Wandering_Mania]

Ashal,

I'd also like to ask how would mods that only include something not of the visual element; Maybe like sounds? They don't have a 'visual' element to them. So if they must include a picture, how does one go about taking a picture of audio?

 

That rule has some holes, and some flaws, in my opinion. Plus as Twycross448 mentioned, the legacy/older mods, that are still used by people, may be put at risk of deletion, even though they are not 'low effort'.

[Blaze69]

7 hours ago, Ashal said:

As promised, I've worked on a no low-effort uploads rule, so here's a rough draft of the new proposed rule. I want to run it by the people of this thread to get feedback before officially implementing it. Let me know if you think it sounds clear and written in a way that sounds fair and if you have any suggestions or additions you think should be included with it.

Sounds very good, I'd reckon. The part about needing "a detailed description, clear installation instructions, and at least one screenshot or other visual aid showcasing the mod" is certainly welcome; overall I think that does apply to most Beth game uploads (even if there's outliers still), but it's severely lacking in the Sims section, where you can have all the emojis and cringe unreadable weird-fonted text in the world but zero clear explanation on what they include or what each of the files (if there's several) does.

 

That or the ones where they straight up upload a .package file with the filename as the mod name and zero info whatsoever (which I presume is bots trying to upload malware or whatever? I don't understand the point otherwise).

 

7 hours ago, Ashal said:

I'd also like to work out "minor files" being grouped into collections instead of individual files, but I think I'll write that as a separate additional rule. It's a bit more complicated, as I think implementing it the right way will require contacting relevant uploaders and working out details with them.

Oh gods, yes please. Those multi-uploads are way out of hand. I understand splitting out things that aren't closely related, like keeping a furniture set separate from clothes or whatever, but when you have things like differently-colored versions of the same base clothes/makeup/hair/whatever as separate mod pages, it's just ridiculous.

 

6 hours ago, Twycross448 said:

1. Sounds good for a first draft. But please allow one question. How will any rule change affect mods than still work but whose creators have left modding behind by now (or stopped coming online for any other reason)? Skyrim in particular is likely to have such "legacy" mods in its section.

I would assume if the mod authors aren't active anymore then those files can be grandfathered in and exempt from the rule. But if the mod authors are still very much active (i.e. uploading new mods), I'd try politely asking them to revise their older mods' pages and consider stronger action if they refuse or ignore the request.

 

6 hours ago, Twycross448 said:

2. Seeing some of the Sims 4 creators do giant advertisment sections for their paywall compared to the actual content they offer as an appetizer, I would suggest including a size limit of some kind. For example:

 

"Advertizing your *insert-Paywall-name-here* page is permitted, but cannot exceed 10% of the mod description. Listings (for example listing every single animation included in a pack) do not count towards the length of the description in this regard."

This is a good idea overall. Might need to be fine-tuned a bit to avoid loopholes like the aforementioned word salad or making text big or small to play with things (the "listings don't count for size" quirk is a good start), but ensuring mod pages are actual mod pages first and foremost and not just vehicles for Patreon shilling sounds good to me.

 

4 hours ago, Maglog said:

Sorry to interrupt, but i was reeding this for a couple of days already, and decided to write opinion (since this topic becoming a rule making) from the "simmers" side, so to say. Because it is clear for me that this topic is started by non S4 gamers mostly

The people that benefit (sometimes monetarily in the case of Patreon shilling) don't show their support for something that would cut their freeloading and free advertising. Color me surprised.

 

I am surprised none of those paywalling slobs and Patreon shills haven't come screeching about it yet, actually.

 

4 hours ago, Maglog said:

In MyOp person who started this topic and those who followed has no comprehension on the subject (no offence intended), which is clear to me by general statements like making sims is a "low effort" work and it's annoying to see those to bump up all the time. It actually takes a lot of creativity and time. Of course no coding or other "progressive" work is in it, but sometimes it also is (like when sim creators make, edit CC and etc. for their sims in order to make them more unique).

That's all relative.

 

Personally I suck at character creation (at least for humans lmao) so if I wanted to make a good-looking human character in any game of the ones I play/mod (Beth ones or Sims), it would take me a ton of time and effort, and I won't state otherwise. At the same time, it's ultimately just a bunch of slider/chargen values which anyone more talented could churn out in 10 minutes and I would never consider that actually "high-effort", or not on par with, I dunno, FO4 weapon mods with handmade animations or hours-long voiced quest mods or stuff like Fallout London, and I certainly wouldn't consider a single Sims household or a Skyrim/Fo4 character preset to warrant the kind of blatant and extreme Patreon shilling and paywalling we're seeing.

 

4 hours ago, Maglog said:

Some of the works on TS4 (sims) - i don't like, most probably some people don't like mine, and scrolling through all the creations and forums (if you are in search) is a bit (really 🤏) annoying. But this site has done it pretty easy and smart, we have search engine (which works really good), diversification and categories on main page + the upper right side of LL (if needed to separate search and so on). A lot of us - simmers, for example, don't like seeing all those beasties XXX photos which are mostly connected to TES players now. It's okay if people like it, we don't interfere, so i think that it would be nice if other game players would also show some sort of gamers courtesy - in same way.

Bold of you to assume "us Beth game modders" like that stuff either. If all those "beasties XXX photos" mods disappeared I wouldn't shed a single tear. But anyhow, that's irrelevant here.

 

I don't think anyone minds those "low-effort" (whether you consider them as such or not) mods being uploaded that much; there's always gonna be some audience for pretty much any mod anyone would ever want to make, and as long as they aren't unfairly straining LL's storage or bandwidth capacity then that's okay. The real issue is that they are all but guaranteed to not be genuine mod work but rather the minimum required "effort" to be considered a "complete mod upload" so they can use it as an excuse to shill their Patreon or paywalls.

 

If none of those mods included any Patreon or paywalling at all then I'm pretty sure nobody would have a problem with that (but then again there would be no incentive for the uploaders to follow such scummy tactics so chances are there wouldn't be such a spam in the first place).

 

4 hours ago, Maglog said:

From buisness side (this side was also raised here), even if there are a lot of non direct (non paying) supporters in LL S4 community - they bring views, croud and other attention to LL, which i think is better when 0. I don't have the statistics, but something tells me that TS4 players / visitors are around here more - hence their input (direct or indirect) for LL's growth should be bigger (there are more S4 related uploads - accroding to this topic) or at the same level at least. And don't think that TES indirect supporters base is lesser tbh.

Oh, look, the "you're being paid in exposure, don't you dare complain about it" spiel people use to try and get free art out of artists. I see that a lot. /s

 

But seriously though, as I said I am not (that) dumb, I understand that the kind of... demographics Sims mods bring in are the most likely to not being tech-savvy enough to use adblockers and thus the most likely to bring actual revenue for LL. So I don't think Sims players should be forbidden from benefiting from their mod uploads here. Again, the real issue is how unfair it is. They profit from it by shilling their Patreon and their paywalled crap, but the free content they give back to the community is blatantly lazy and not fair towards LL for offering them such a platform in the first place.

 

4 hours ago, Maglog said:

 👆don't think that this additional rule is needed, it will make process harder and confusing

No it won't, providing some basic info on what the mod does and how it works is the only basic requirement I'd ever consider for a mod upload. And if someone doesn't have the time or care to write up two or three clearly readable lines of information about their mod maybe they should reconsider their priorities.

 

Disclaimer: my own work is the minimum standard I hold other people up to (because I'm already a lazy bum myself). You can check all my mod uploads here and on Nexus to see what I consider a "proper" basic mod description to look like regarding sections and information, so I'm not just talking out of my ass here.

 

4 hours ago, Maglog said:

specially if you make it retrospective (as was stated some creators are absent, their works might be lost, keeping their files on LL serves archives purpose - great thing).

As mentioned above, I do think exceptions should be made for absent creators (unless they are shown to be still active and uploading and trying to maliciously avoid updating their older mods to comply with the rules). In which case this issue wouldn't apply anymore.

 

4 hours ago, Maglog said:

Anyway, since i have a chance - one thing i would like to ask / propose about this: "may be removed without notice or warning". It's always better and would be welcomed (i think from anyone here) if you would actually write a notice to person whos contect you are going to delete, giving them chance to understand and/or to comply. Using this situation because, for example, we have worked a lot on making to come back one of well known and great sims creators to start him uploading sims again for all here. But our work went to ashes since one day his uploading page was deleted - and he doesn't know why. I understand that you are busy and this takes time to implement, but it would help to harmonize coexistence on LL💯. + tbh, don't know if my files would pass the proposed rule exam.

Honestly this is fair, I think if moderation action is taken towards a file the author should at least be told what rule they broke and (possibly) how to avoid it in the first place. Perhaps even do a warning first when there's a decent chance of it being the result of an honest mistake, and providing some grace period to fix it, but ultimately this would be up to the moderation team, and people uploading mods should always read the rules closely in the first place and ensure they are following them to the best of their abilities before uploading anything themselves.

 

3 hours ago, Maglog said:

Those are going to be general rules (as is), Skyrim’s uploads included, and it’s going to be issue afters

Most Skyrim mods already include the required information, whether following a clear and defined layout or not. I don't think I've seen the issue of descriptions being just a word salad/literally nothing at all/just a shitty backdrop for Patreon shilling anywhere outside of the Sims section (although admittedly I've only ever really browsed Beth game sections + Sims ones). So I don't see what your point is.

 

If anything, it's a good thing since it means higher quality for Beth game mod pages from there on as well, regardless of what the average quality is already.

[Blaze69]

I got ninja'd by this post, so I'll share my thoughts as well.

 

14 minutes ago, Wandering_Mania said:

I'd also like to ask how would mods that only include something not of the visual element; Maybe like sounds? They don't have a 'visual' element to them. So if they must include a picture, how does one go about taking a picture of audio?

I would say either make an exception for such mods that reasonably don't have anything that can be showcased on screenshots, or do what people do for Nexus (which does have a mandatory image upload per mod page) and just post an image of the mod name text over a white background or a meme or a funny drawing or whatever.

 

14 minutes ago, Wandering_Mania said:

Plus as Twycross448 mentioned, the legacy/older mods, that are still used by people, may be put at risk of deletion, even though they are not 'low effort'.

See my post above regarding thoughts on that.

Edited August 13, 2024 by Blaze69

[Ashal]

5 hours ago, Maglog said:

In MyOp person who started this topic and those who followed has no comprehension on the subject (no offence intended), which is clear to me by general statements like making sims is a "low effort" work and it's annoying to see those to bump up all the time. It actually takes a lot of creativity and time. Of course no coding or other "progressive" work is in it, but sometimes it also is (like when sim creators make, edit CC and etc. for their sims in order to make them more unique).

 

 

Honestly, I'd say one of the bigger issues with stuff like sims isn't that CAS Sims are necessarily low effort, but the fact that they almost always include a ton of assets from other creators that made the various clothes, makeup, accessories, or custom sliders used in the CAS to make it and included with the download, but are all almost never credited or mentioned. Then you have to pray all the included assets are compatible with the mess of other assets you have, many of which might be duplicates or outdated versions of assets you already had.

 

But the Sims 4 community as a whole seems to have collectively decided not to really care about that, so we've basically just shrugged and let it pass.

[davisev5225]

34 minutes ago, Ashal said:

 

Honestly, I'd say one of the bigger issues with stuff like sims isn't that CAS Sims are necessarily low effort, but the fact that they almost always include a ton of assets from other creators that made the various clothes, makeup, accessories, or custom sliders used in the CAS to make it and included with the download, but are all almost never credited or mentioned. Then you have to pray all the included assets are compatible with the mess of other assets you have, many of which might be duplicates or outdated versions of assets you already had.

 

But the Sims 4 community as a whole seems to have collectively decided not to really care about that, so we've basically just shrugged and let it pass.

 

Honestly, that leads back to the "Luddite" aspect of The Sims.  Bundling everything so it's a "one-click solution" is kind of necessary; otherwise, you'd end up in dependencies-hell trying to find every single asset needed just to run, e.g., a single character model.  I think there's also a mod count limit (much like Beth games), so bundling also helps with that, especially when a single character model can have upwards of 20 different assets...

 

That said, I still think the biggest issue here is paywall / donation shilling and a desire to constantly keep one's name visible on the front page so as to increase exposure to said paywall / donation shilling.  I believe your proposed rule, along with your comment about a second rule regarding "minor" files being grouped into a single download page (e.g. swatches, sets of clothes, etc.) will adequately address the current file spamming issues.

[belegost]

5 hours ago, Maglog said:

Those are going to be general rules (as is), Skyrim’s uploads included, and it’s going to be issue afters

We'll worry about this when we get there.

[Maglog]

3 hours ago, Blaze69 said:

Honestly this is fair, I think if moderation action is taken towards a file the author should at least be told what rule they broke and (possibly) how to avoid it in the first place. Perhaps even do a warning first when there's a decent chance of it being the result of an honest mistake, and providing some grace period to fix it, but ultimately this would be up to the moderation team, and people uploading mods should always read the rules closely in the first place and ensure they are following them to the best of their abilities before uploading anything themselves.

👆big thanks for support on this!! + not going full "ninga" on me)) One thing i would like to notice: "people uploading mods should always read the rules closely in the first place and ensure they are following them" - in the case i mentioned it didn't helped, even re-reading rules, trying to understand which of them was possibly breached. That's why the notice thing would be great, it will take away any possible uncertainty (if the one doesn't follow the rules after notice, or not given chance to explain, or to comply - it should be also easier for administration to apply penalties, or to avoid them being applied since basically or by assumption most of the LL users are normal, and dont go for havoc).

i won't comment about the rest you said, because mostly it seems like difference in opinions, we both shared ours, i don't wanna be spoiling this topic. But anyways thanks for your detailed response!

 

2 hours ago, Ashal said:

 

Honestly, I'd say one of the bigger issues with stuff like sims isn't that CAS Sims are necessarily low effort, but the fact that they almost always include a ton of assets from other creators that made the various clothes, makeup, accessories, or custom sliders used in the CAS to make it and included with the download, but are all almost never credited or mentioned. Then you have to pray all the included assets are compatible with the mess of other assets you have, many of which might be duplicates or outdated versions of assets you already had.

 

But the Sims 4 community as a whole seems to have collectively decided not to really care about that, so we've basically just shrugged and let it pass.

I understand your worries here about crediting CC makers, and of course the thing when you download another sim and have to check all the CC to keep them in order. Will begin from the end.

 

That re-checking CC after download. For now i have something around 100 gb in mods for S4. Most of them were downloaded alongside with sims download, as it was - with all those duplicates and stuff. So, at the beginning (when i started to upload here) even i was not sure (due to lack of exp / knowledge), if there were duplicates, outdated or broken CC. From time went by, with help of more experienced friends my further uploads became better (less heavy, without duplicates and so on). Just recently i wasted something around a week trying to take out all the non needed CC from my mods folder, it's stressful and till this day i'm not sure if i haven't taken out something which i will need. Of course people like me thinking, it is better to leave it that way instead of going on missing CC, especially since you may never find one again.

 

And this thing is kinda like necessary routine with S4 since EA always messing the process up (hence fxck the EA's TOU if they don't give a rat's ass about us in first place and trying at their best to hustle down CC creators to cut the competition - which is bth also would be considered unlawful, i think in most of the EU and other states, ask Australia about their response to EA refund politics: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/ea-changes-origin-refund-policy-after-being-hit-by/1100-6426933/). 

 

Plus to that, i've seen 3 basic option used in the community: 1) uploading tray files only, they usually provide list of CC needed - you get complaints or chanting like "why do i have to find it myself, the links don't work, this is crap, too hard" and etc; 2) with all CC included - here may come in the problem you mentioned in first place; 3) some sort of mix of those both methods. I use second method (with CC included) and it is not my ill will to steal others CC or something like that (all the CC can be seen after the download, named and with authors mentioning, if it was used when uploaded for the first time or to the time when i got that CC when i downloaded it from somewhere or someone).

 

Technically, this is also considered as giving or naming all the OG CC creators. I dealt with this issue when i was firstly uploading, didn't wanted to break any CC creators mood, and start searching a way out, and stopped on additional using disclaimer, stating that "All the CC belongs to their creators, dont claim any rights on them. " - because this method was used by a lot of honest / decent uploaders i looked upon + it is the most practical and convenient (disclaimer + leaving the original CC description, not changing it for something like "made by me").  This way is also legal in most of the cases (probably with exception for those "only pay and get" patreons).

 

Most of the so-called TOU's or their understanding requires only to mention the author, this purpose is dually fulfilled with including CC as it is, it has all the needed data to identify OG creator and go seeking for his/hers other stuff, if not - it's a flow made by author himself (of course, if you not changed anything, but thats a different story). Besides, i've seen uploaders making other disclaimers like "can't find author of the CC, if it is you - just PM and we will deal this up", even if not - the author always have a way to contact stuff or the one who uploaded here in order to solve in best possible (non conflict) way. I'm sure you have seen this thing working on pretty much any kind of e-platform (since there are not many real options besides it).  If the "thief" uploader doesn't comply - afters some penalties are applied, this is how it usually works and keeps all of the sides happy.

 

Finally, i think that those TOU's are also not as solid as rock and shouldn't always prevail or be relevant. For example, TOU's is some sort of obligational contract, which means that there is no obligation if the other party is missing. It raises questions like should we follow or name CC creators who went off, or we don't have contacts with him/her. Also, for example, should we follow the TOU if it requires to name the CC creator, i don't - "king on the hill" or something like that. If CC creator is doing buisness (getting paid for the CC specifically) and we have no option rather when download and to conjoin TOU - in most of the civil countries any downloader would be able to challenge that TOU as being a weaker side, under laws of consumer protection to the point of their invalidation. 

 

Sorry for bringing in all that legal thing up, but while reading i had a feeling that people forget that this site is called Lovers (amateurs, simple players and the creators) Lab site, but all this propositions sounds like people want to chain themselves up when it is unnecessary, and we are signing contracts for joining the billionaires corporation club or something like that, can only quote Johnny Sack here: "I mean, what happened to this thing? For God’s sake, we bend more rules than the Catholic Church" (с))

 

Anyways, thanks for your response, and if you would at least take in consideration that "need to notice" thing before excluding it would be already joyful!!

          

 

Edited August 13, 2024 by Maglog

[DoctaSax]

I think the copyright/permissions issue is really just a sideshow to this discussion; as a site, we can't deviate from the law which states that unless permission was explicitly granted, it was denied. We can't state anything to the contrary, like 'crediting is enough', without shouldering the liability for other people's transgressions.

 

[Neodarkside]

4 hours ago, Ashal said:

Honestly, I'd say one of the bigger issues with stuff like sims isn't that CAS Sims are necessarily low effort, but the fact that they almost always include a ton of assets from other creators that made the various clothes, makeup, accessories, or custom sliders used in the CAS to make it and included with the download, but are all almost never credited or mentioned.

 

That right there has always been my biggest complaint and why I would prefer CAS Sims cannot mention Patreon at all. They are paywalling content that isn't theirs and if not 100% of the time NEVER credited the original creator. Its why I've watched many many MANY good CC creators vanish offline, blatant theft. The rule idea is valid for me, because the screenshot on page 1 listing like 6 sims by the same person is literally a gif of the sim and a few outfits and their name. Nothing else.

[Mr. Otaku]

On 8/10/2024 at 4:10 PM, Ashal said:

 

Are you seriously judging us based on the fact that "2.5 moderators" have been enough to maintain the site's current moderation needs for the past months? Or that our rules have been solid enough to cover most every other issue for the past years?

 

I'm terribly sorry our effectiveness has offended you so. 🙃

 

The site will adapt as it needs to, as it always has.

 

I'm not agreeing with that person and i like LL a lot but moderation on this site could be improved a lot imo. I'm not looking to start shit so i won't drop names but 1 out of those 2.5 moderators has a really weird habit of playing favorites and relentless simping. I've seen certain users make posts that are blatantly against the rules (the kinds of things i've had to fire people for posting on their socials) and nothing gets done about them by the moderation team.

 

On one hand i like that moderation is more hands off here instead of being super in your face obnoxious, and it's certainly better without that one moderator around who had a man shoving his head up his ass for his profile pic (can't remember his name) but it also leads to the thing i described on the other hand. And when legit questions i brought up he just defaults to "well you don't pay the site so stfu" like how is that supposed to be constructive?

 

To reiterate, i really like LL or else i wouldn't bother coming here. It's also a lot more chill of place than equivalent spaces like Nexus forums which is just awful, but there's still room for improvement imo.

 

 

On 8/7/2024 at 9:54 PM, Pamatronic said:

Anyway, rant over.

 

I don't visit here often anymore but i agree overall, i've never been interested in sims as a whole but my wife is now getting into it because one of her friends is super into it too, so i'm starting to browse sims stuff more now to prepare myself for when she eventually asks me to mod it with sex/nudity. But it feels like so much of sims modding is filled with literal garbage. Especially now that Ai has made it really easy to shoot out trash at unbelievable speeds.

 

And honestly i don't know what system would prevent this spamming. The blanket option would be to allow users to tick off any games they don't care to see content from in the settings page. Another option would be like you said to limit uploads to maybe 3 per user, but i feel like a dedicated spammer would just switch to alts and keep posting anyway unless moderators are keeping an eye out for that. But there's also the possibility of deleting a legit mod because it looked like an alt account when it was someone else with similar content.

 

Skyrim and Fallout 4 get spam too but honestly sims is just on another level. Never seen anything like it.

[Pamatronic]

13 hours ago, Maglog said:

In MyOp person who started this topic and those who followed has no comprehension on the subject (no offence intended), which is clear to me by general statements like making sims is a "low effort" work and it's annoying to see those to bump up all the time. It actually takes a lot of creativity and time. Of course no coding or other "progressive" work is in it, but sometimes it also is (like when sim creators make, edit CC and etc. for their sims in order to make them more unique).

 

Well, offense taken.
Apparently you didn't bother to actually read the posts. Nobody claimed that ALL sims are low effort, only that the majority of them are and they are clogging up the feed.
As the image in the opening post shows, the particular stroke that broke the camels back and made me posting in the first place wast that guy who spammed out 5 sims on that day, and this wasn't the firt day. And if you can crank out such an amount, the are low effort. end of story.

And usually I wouldn't bother responding to something like this, but you are an interesting case study for some of the issues surrounding the sims, so lets get into it:

There was something that always made me wonder when looking at one of these spam uploads. When its just blatant patreon chilling, theres not much room for discussion. But what about those WITHOUT the patreon link? They are still shite and are cranked out en masse, but whats the motivation here. And looking at your files I think I know (or remembered) the answer.
Its just those deluded people who have absolutely ZERO talent (artistic or otherwise) who still want to pretend otherwise. Its like those folks on Deviantart who draw stick figures but still think its necessary to plaster their name/watermark all over it.
And we have that here as well:

 

(may the Omnissiah forgive me for saving those atrocities to my machine...)

Spoiler

Pair it with a shitty oil painting filter and the illusion of having created something worthwhile apparently becomes convincing enough for some.
(And there is another file which is simply a minor recolor of fingernails)

 

My expertise is mostly in scripting and animating, and apart from that Im barely smart enough to operate my microvawe, but this here is SO LOW EFFORT that I could make it with the pre-installed image app on my no-name china smartphone while sitting in in a bus. And it would take me minutes at best.
And this applies to every one who has ever touched an image editing tool or has any sort of passion for what he/she does.

Its effectively the same thing the AI bros do. creating without having to put in Any sort of meaningful effort. And the actual result is pretty much completely based on achievements of other people who go completely unrecognized.

And while we´re an the topic of creator recognition...

5 hours ago, Maglog said:

I dealt with this issue when i was firstly uploading, didn't wanted to break any CC creators mood, and start searching a way out, and stopped on additional using disclaimer, stating that "All the CC belongs to their creators, dont claim any rights on them. " - because this method was used by a lot of honest / decent uploaders i looked upon + it is the most practical and convenient (disclaimer + leaving the original CC description, not changing it for something like "made by me").  This way is also legal in most of the cases (probably with exception for those "only pay and get" patreons).

you are a clown.

Lets say I upload a full avengers movie here (or anywhere else) with the disclaimer "All the content belongs to their creators, dont claim any rights on them."
I think It would take less then a minute for mickey mouse to appear at my house and shoot of my kneecaps with a shogun before curbstomping me...
This is illegal, no matter what you like to think. And just as the Docta said, as long as you dont have explicit permission from the creator, you have no right to to upload it anywhere.

The reason you and everyone else do it is simply because you know you can easily get away with this. No mod creator is gonna waste money and effort on suing anyone over this.
There are plenty of sites out there who upload and even monetize my shit. I could complain or write a DMCA, sure. But something tells me that sites on the .ru or .su domain wont be particularly impressed by this, so I save my sanity and try to ignore it as best as I can.
And even in the smaller scope of this site where you could complain to the mods, you don't wanna waste your time and sanity on looking for people who stole your stuff. so you simply let it slide or stop creating/uploading alltogether...

 

And since you are one of those delusional folks who have their Name in every screenshot, you clearly care about the name recognition yourself. But I guess showing those whose content you just took the same courtesy by doing the minimal effort and listing them was too much to ask for. what a shame.

Sorry to everyone else for starting name calling. I didn't want to write hit pieces an anyone in particular either when I started this thread, bu I think this here really is a great example on a lot of the problems which are caused by the sims inherently low barrier of entry.
A lot of the misgivings there have simply been normalized over time, and I think its time for new rules and moderation to stomp this behavior out.
So maybe one day, Sims4 wont be this ugly thing that constantly annoys everyone else.

[Papp274]

Meh so we have a relatively inactive sect of the community here upset and spouting off that "it isn't fair all the exposure this other sect is getting!!!" 

and making posts like this to call out a portion of that MUCH more active sect of the community and trying to shut them down... 

 

Just wow over the last week since this post and action taken by the mods here the only stand out mod uploaded for the Skyrim boards was yet another LOW EFFORT 

conversion mod of yet another strap on for some shitty big tiddied body or some garbage... (that mod is no longer available, probably as it was trash...

 

Skyrim modding is dead here right now... get over it.

Stop trying to punish a sect of this community that is still active... sure there are some low effort mods for the Sims... again there are low effort mods for Skyrim also... 

 

All I can say to Ashal is think about how much punishment you hand out to the active sect of the community before you hand it out... they may just ALL go find somewhere else to 

hang out and post content without the whiny low activity sects blowing smoke because they didn't get to see another strap on mod conversion... 

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers! 

[Maglog]

6 minutes ago, Pamatronic said:

 

Well, offense taken.
Apparently you didn't bother to actually read the posts. Nobody claimed that ALL sims are low effort, only that the majority of them are and they are clogging up the feed.
As the image in the opening post shows, the particular stroke that broke the camels back and made me posting in the first place wast that guy who spammed out 5 sims on that day, and this wasn't the firt day. And if you can crank out such an amount, the are low effort. end of story.

And usually I wouldn't bother responding to something like this, but you are an interesting case study for some of the issues surrounding the sims, so lets get into it:

There was something that always made me wonder when looking at one of these spam uploads. When its just blatant patreon chilling, theres not much room for discussion. But what about those WITHOUT the patreon link? They are still shite and are cranked out en masse, but whats the motivation here. And looking at your files I think I know (or remembered) the answer.
Its just those deluded people who have absolutely ZERO talent (artistic or otherwise) who still want to pretend otherwise. Its like those folks on Deviantart who draw stick figures but still think its necessary to plaster their name/watermark all over it.
And we have that here as well:

 

(may the Omnissiah forgive me for saving those atrocities to my machine...)

  Hide contents

Pair it with a shitty oil painting filter and the illusion of having created something worthwhile apparently becomes convincing enough for some.
(And there is another file which is simply a minor recolor of fingernails)

 

My expertise is mostly in scripting and animating, and apart from that Im barely smart enough to operate my microvawe, but this here is SO LOW EFFORT that I could make it with the pre-installed image app on my no-name china smartphone while sitting in in a bus. And it would take me minutes at best.
And this applies to every one who has ever touched an image editing tool or has any sort of passion for what he/she does.

Its effectively the same thing the AI bros do. creating without having to put in Any sort of meaningful effort. And the actual result is pretty much completely based on achievements of other people who go completely unrecognized.

And while we´re an the topic of creator recognition...

you are a clown.

Lets say I upload a full avengers movie here (or anywhere else) with the disclaimer "All the content belongs to their creators, dont claim any rights on them."
I think It would take less then a minute for mickey mouse to appear at my house and shoot of my kneecaps with a shogun before curbstomping me...
This is illegal, no matter what you like to think. And just as the Docta said, as long as you dont have explicit permission from the creator, you have no right to to upload it anywhere.

The reason you and everyone else do it is simply because you know you can easily get away with this. No mod creator is gonna waste money and effort on suing anyone over this.
There are plenty of sites out there who upload and even monetize my shit. I could complain or write a DMCA, sure. But something tells me that sites on the .ru or .su domain wont be particularly impressed by this, so I save my sanity and try to ignore it as best as I can.
And even in the smaller scope of this site where you could complain to the mods, you don't wanna waste your time and sanity on looking for people who stole your stuff. so you simply let it slide or stop creating/uploading alltogether...

 

And since you are one of those delusional folks who have their Name in every screenshot, you clearly care about the name recognition yourself. But I guess showing those whose content you just took the same courtesy by doing the minimal effort and listing them was too much to ask for. what a shame.

Sorry to everyone else for starting name calling. I didn't want to write hit pieces an anyone in particular either when I started this thread, bu I think this here really is a great example on a lot of the problems which are caused by the sims inherently low barrier of entry.
A lot of the misgivings there have simply been normalized over time, and I think its time for new rules and moderation to stomp this behavior out.
So maybe one day, Sims4 wont be this ugly thing that constantly annoys everyone else.

Great response bionical🦾, but i won't be getting in personal exchange with you, only can say that you can keep clowns and other words of recognition to yourself. But better would be if you would keep this discussion on the appropriate level (you manner to talk also telling a lot about you).

 

 

On the subject and mickey mouses. For explicity - where are different forms to do so: verbal, written and made by conclusive actions, but not sure if you had considered that+add to that different rules under any possible jurisdiction, hence different consequences. Since this thing is mainly civil - all actions are basically considered lawful if by applicable law it is not stated otherwise (as a matter of general principal). As was written above, it's sort of international easy mode practice - if author sees some potential abuse of his creation: he addresses this issue to one who posted or the sites stuff in order to solve the problem, don't see no actual problem here. Normal people try in this cases to solve that problem in way OG creator want's, no courts or warrants for arrest needed. Btw Mickey mouse mostly deals in the same way, of course there are some exemptions, for instance YouTube. It works like this: they get complaint, stop spreading the contect, but anyways there are ways to overcome this (alleged breacher get's a chance for explanation and etc). This system is not the best, from times to times get's complaints because there is also abuse of the system coming from allegedly suffering party. 

 

"Lets say I upload a full avengers movie here (or anywhere else) with the disclaimer" - this example is irrelevant in it's core anyways, we are on LL - major rule here is free contect circulation coming from whoever (OG creators also), giving credit is not the same issue / different obligation, rules here don't oblige any of us to pay or something like that for. Mickey mouse makes it's content on commercial bases, hence it works all the way around, it won't come here to share, only to protect it's digital property. 

 

About me using water marks - it's to ease up process of searching the needed CC in the game, not only to put my name on it😉 If you had at least once needed to go down all the way through CC in S4 in search without CAS preview identifying the needed CC, maybe you would understand. And anyways, i haven't putted my name on something which i uploaded which wasn't made by me. That nail recolor you spoke of was my first CC attempt (even if it is recolor and so on), kinda great deal for me and for some people who downloaded it was usefull. If you don't like - it's ok, you can always pass by. I may be not talented as you, not a code master, but at least trying something new for me. Anyways, it was made since i couldn't find something similar needed, and only decided to share it with the rest (it was free also, as you can see).

 

p/s: you wrote "Nobody claimed that ALL sims are low effort, only that the majority of them are" - basically it's two mutually exclusive conclusions used by you in the same sentence, and your first post with "shitty" authors listing was going alongside mentioning some well known creators (not only 5 recent post). So, it's not my fault that i understood you exactly like you represented yourself.  Anyways, have a nice day, and try to take easy✌️  

[Pamatronic]

2 hours ago, Maglog said:

"Lets say I upload a full avengers movie here (or anywhere else) with the disclaimer" - this example is irrelevant in it's core anyways, we are on LL - major rule here is free contect circulation coming from whoever (OG creators also), giving credit is not the same issue / different obligation, rules here don't oblige any of us to pay or something like that for. Mickey mouse makes it's content on commercial bases, hence it works all the way around, it won't come here to share, only to protect it's digital property. 

That is absolutely not how this works - at all.

Just because something is uploaded on LL for free doesn't mean you get any rights to Redistribute it. You can download it for personal use, but thats all you get.

The Docta said it:

8 hours ago, DoctaSax said:

I think the copyright/permissions issue is really just a sideshow to this discussion; as a site, we can't deviate from the law which states that unless permission was explicitly granted, it was denied. We can't state anything to the contrary, like 'crediting is enough', without shouldering the liability for other people's transgressions.

And clearly you didn't bother to ask anyone for permissions. And neither does anyone else in that clownshow which is the sims4 community.

[travelmedic]

23 hours ago, Ashal said:

Once the rule is officially implemented, I'll likely issue a sitewide notice that it'll be applied to any content going forward and that after some amount of time, I'm thinking one month, it will begin to apply retroactively to existing uploads as well. The main issue is that I'd want to give some time to the existing content to get itself in line with the rule or be backed up by the author before being removed.

 

23 hours ago, Twycross448 said:

2. Seeing some of the Sims 4 creators do giant advertisment sections for their paywall compared to the actual content they offer as an appetizer, I would suggest including a size limit of some kind. For example:

 

If you look at some of the more egregious uploads, there will be 1 or 2 small thumbnails of the actual content loaded to LL, and then 20 pictures of paywalled Patreon stuff.

 

Setting an arbitrary limit of attachments might be difficult* (even if it would help with the site's storage issues) but maybe require that at least 60/70/80/whatever % of pictures or attachments are directly related to the free content on LL.

 

*Difficult because some animators might need several pics to showcase their work, or for the two people who make build/buy neon signs, or for the few conscientious uploaders who will periodically upload new CAS Sims, but always to their existing page.  In cases like those, the % rule makes more sense than a hard limit.