Sims Spam - Again ...

[Pamatronic]

I know that people have raised this issue countless times in the past, And site management has displayed precious little interest in doing ANYTHING about it, so I'm under no Illusion that this post here will change anything. I merely want to avoid the impression that this Situation has been accepted by the wider parts of the remaining site users.

So, as the most recent Example of this insanity, I want to direct your attention at this shit here:

Spoiler

 

Literally both the new topics and new Files section are (almost) exclusively filled with low effort spam. And this is a fairly common sight these days.
And recently, its not just the usual e-begging hackjobs who spam out their trash and suck up all the oxygen, But we´ve also seen a rise of obvious AI´s posting random shit all over the forum. Usually this was confined to text posts, but I wouldn't be too surprised if that has already expanded into the upload section.

 

So @Ashal, my question is, Is it REALLY that much of an impossibility to implement a daily upload limit or SOMETHING to make this site look like it ISN'T populated entirely by bots?

 

Because every time I go here, I see the same shit. Mostly Spam, and the occasional guy in a support thread who didn't bother to read the frontpage.
So all in al,l I see very precious reason for me to remain on the site and keep uploading here.
As it stands, For me and a lot of other modders its just far more practical to simply stick to their discords and handle uploads and support there. (Or simply go to Arca...)
Which is unfortunate because this site used to be quite fun and interesting when new Ideas and discussions could actually go somewhere.

Anyway, rant over.

[blank_v]

They not gonna do anything about it xD

Sashal does not handle things well... but its kinda good thing... spammers can spam... but there is lot of freedom...

I kinda like that freedom... Tho some decisions are shitty xDDD

 

I remember I talked with CPU like 3 years ago about some changes...

He said that they cant do anything because they just use some shitty template for their forum or something and its not fully up to them...

 

 

Well...

SIMs gonna continue spamming xD not like there is much new worth content anywaa...

[Ashal]

5 hours ago, Pamatronic said:

I know that people have raised this issue countless times in the past,

 

Once. It's been brought up to me specifically only once before. And there were other more important issues going on at the time, so yes, it unfortunately fell by the wayside rather than being dealt with fully then like it should've been.

 

And as I said then, just because it's content you're personally not interested in doesn't make it spam. It's certainly not bots uploading, either. Though yes, there has been a rise lately in spam bots for text posts, this is nothing new and has always risen and lowered with frequency over the years, we delete it on site as we always have.

 

I'll go ahead and remove custom sims from the file/topic feed, though, if they bother people that much.

 

I just don't see somebody dumping a handful of sims on the site every now and then as an epidemic, they show on the file feed for a little bit, and then they're gone. It's a global feed, after all; it shows everything. Custom activity streams can be set up for users wanting more selective feeds.

 

However, I don't think a daily upload limit is helpful or productive. I'd be more in favor of implementing a new rule to ban "low-effort" uploads that don't include any kind of relevant description or screenshot of value, which has been discussed before.

 

 

--

 

 

4 hours ago, ̖̪. said:

Sashal does not handle things well... 

Tho some decisions are shitty xDDD

 

And who are you? There's no need to jump into a topic intended to be constructive and be rude to me as if I wasn't going to see it.

 

Quote

I remember I talked with CPU like 3 years ago about some changes...

He said that they cant do anything because they just use some shitty template for their forum or something and its not fully up to them...

 

CPU was just a normal moderator and not an admin. They didn't know what they were talking about when it came to what can and can't be done on the site and didn't speak for me.

[blank_v]

43 minutes ago, Ashal said:

And who are you? There's no need to jump into a topic intended to be constructive and be rude to me as if I wasn't going to see it.

 

CPU was just a normal moderator and not an admin. They didn't know what they were talking about when it came to what can and can't be done on the site and didn't speak for me.

 

Hello~! Ya no have to rememba me Shashal xD It's enough for me that I remember You

And what is that about "was" CPU is no longer a Mod? Well... he was kinda my favorite... always answering fast and and cared for all >.<...

 

Well when I was trying to message You back when I was still modding Skyrim You were always ghosting me xD

 

About the handling website part... let's be honest... LoversLab is not changing nearly at all...

In last 10 years I can count only few changes... not sure when did You added Max Total size for post... but that 500mb limit is still quite heavy xD

 

Funny that You can upload max 250 mb mod... but You can do 500 mb post xDDD

[Ashal]

5 minutes ago, ̖̪. said:

Well when I was trying to message You back when I was still modding Skyrim You were always ghosting me xD

 

Ghosting you? You've sent me a grand total of 3 messages. One I replied to multiple times, one was addressed to multiple people, and the issue was handled before I read the message, so I had no reason to reply, and the last was a basic tech support scripting question which I've been very vocal about not liking to answer in private messages because it's better to do on the forum where others can find the answer/solution as well.

 

 

Quote

About the handling website part... let's be honest... LoversLab is not changing nearly at all...

 

And if there's one thing people love on the internet, it's quick and massive change without any reason for it🙄

 

Plenty has changed, just not in ways you might notice, behind the scenes, or just in sections of the site you don't visit.

 

 

Quote

Funny that You can upload max 250 mb mod... but You can do 500 mb post xDDD

 

It's 250mb per single file, and uploads can have many multiples of files, and not every download category is limited to the same amounts. For posts the 500mb size is a cap for everything included with the post. The numbers may seem flipped at a glance but you're not looking at the whole picture. Moreover, storage space isn't free and unlimited, and as the person paying a bunch of money every month to cover all of it, it's certainly my prerogative to try and optimize that space however I can.

 

[Ashal]

But getting back on topic.

 

I'll revive previous plans for a "no low-effort uploads" rule and work on introducing that sometime soon. The main issue is figuring out how to properly define what should count as low-effort when sometimes there's just really not much to say about a thing being uploaded.

[Simpossible_xx]

It's not only that it spams in the feed, but also makes it difficult to find specific sims that you want to add to your game, as you have to look through 5k already created sims.

 

It would be much easier for everyone if those sims were combined into one topic, like "Jane Doe's Sims - July 2024". Additionally, it would be awesome to have the option to customize your feed to show updates only from specific games.

[Simpossible_xx]

14 minutes ago, Ashal said:

But getting back on topic.

 

I'll revive previous plans for a "no low-effort uploads" rule and work on introducing that sometime soon. The main issue is figuring out how to properly define what should count as low-effort when sometimes there's just really not much to say about a thing being uploaded.

Creating some of the Sims actually requires a lot of effort. The main problem is the spamming in the download section, and I think that the 'no identical standalone uploads' rule would be a more effective solution.

[Ashal]

10 minutes ago, Simpossible_xx said:

It would be much easier for everyone if those sims were combined into one topic, like "Jane Doe's Sims - July 2024". 

 

While I'm in favor of people combining them into single collections instead of individual pages, I'd argue it'll be harder to search for specific sims, if anything, since you'd lose the ability to search them by title.

 

Quote

 Additionally, it would be awesome to have the option to customize your feed to show updates only from specific games.

 

You can already create custom streams that do just that (https://www.loverslab.com/discover/?do=create). That's why I've never seen "sim spam" as that big of a deal; if you want to see only what's new in games you care about, you can do that. The front page file feed shows all (minus cas sims as of now) and is intended as more of an "at a glance" and not a feed of personal interest. 

[Pamatronic]

2 hours ago, Ashal said:

I'll go ahead and remove custom sims from the file/topic feed, though, if they bother people that much.

Gotta be honest, I didn't expect much to come of this thread.
Instead, I got everything I wanted. Thank you 😲

Maybe it actually just went under or didn't grab your attention every time. But I do feel like topics like this have popped up 4-5 times in the last 1-2 years, henceforth my impression that Management didnt' care.

 

2 hours ago, Ashal said:

I'd be more in favor of implementing a new rule to ban "low-effort" uploads

Couldn't agree more. Intuition was just that this might be a bit tricky to implement/enforce compared to something simpler then upload limits. But If you can find a solution for this, great!

 

43 minutes ago, Ashal said:

I'll revive previous plans for a "no low-effort uploads" rule and work on introducing that sometime soon. The main issue is figuring out how to properly define what should count as low-effort when sometimes there's just really not much to say about a thing being uploaded.

If I may offer an opinion Here:
From what I´ve seen over the last year, there are two major groups responsible for the spamming.

1st group is what I call the "commercial simmers".
Every post from them is basically just an advert for their Patreon where they host a paywalled stuff (quality varying).
In order to get around the No paywalling mods rule, they include a token sim in the posts, but that takes up like 10% pf the content in any given post. Rest is just the areforemtioned adverts and call to actions to buy their exclusive sims.
All that accompanied by the daily, template looking uploads with plenty of flashy emojis in the title make it very clear that they only care about visibility in order to make money.
It might warrant some additional actions, maybe a new rule about paywalling or excessive promotion of sponsor sites, But I think just having them kicked of the front page could actually already have solved the issue in large parts.

2nd group is the Image crowd.
Meaning folks who simply zip a bunch of images (either AI generated or simply grabbed from over the internet (without permission of course)) and upload them here. Usually in the form of in-game wall art for the sims, but sometimes not even that.
Simple and effective rule here would be to ban AI and require that the uploader created the images or at least has permission from the artist.


There are some weirdos here and there who don't fall into these categories, but they are relatively rare and can probably be dealt with individually by the admins.

[Pamatronic]

39 minutes ago, Ashal said:

You can already create custom streams that do just that (https://www.loverslab.com/discover/?do=create). That's why I've never seen "sim spam" as that big of a deal; if you want to see only what's new in games you care about, you can do that. The front page file feed shows all (minus cas sims as of now) and is intended as more of an "at a glance" and not a feed of personal interest. 

Thats a very hidden feature... (seing it for the first time myself right now)

But the issue is a different one. Personal example:
Of all the games hosted on this site, Skyrim is the only one that I actually play. No FO, No starfield, nothing else, really.
But That doesn't mean Im not interested in them. quite the opposite, its quite interesting to see what happens in the other Large Beth games. Also quite interested in seing the occasional eye candy from DOA or a new Race for starbound. Heck, I don't even mind seeing something interesting for the sims if it comes out. Some basemental sexdungeon stuff might be cool if properly implemented.
And I'm willing to bet Im not the only one who thinks like this.

But the Problem with custom sims is that this was the ONLY thing in the feed. At all times. Combined with the aforementioned, mostly low effort nature of them, it just was annoying.

[DoctaSax]

FWIW, I find 'low-effort' a tricky thing to define objectively, and the download numbers on those do suggest some people find a use for them so they're not entirely valueless. 

 

I do agree the amount of advertising on some of those pages exceeds any sense of taste and it's sometimes even confusing as to which mod is actually available on the mod page - I've PM'd a few about this and was promised a change, but haven't been able to follow up due to the day-to-day nonsense of real spam, drama etc. Visibility/advertising definitely is the objective for some, and I think our focus should be on reducing that rather than outlawing certain types of mod or mods subjectively considered low-value.

 

Keeping sim downloads off the general feed will no doubt have some impact soon enough, and perhaps we should consider a maximum amount of text and image on a file page that can be used to advertise.

 

 

[Simpossible_xx]

2 hours ago, DoctaSax said:

Keeping sim downloads off the general feed will no doubt have some impact soon enough

It's already made impact. I've uploaded my new outfit for sims more than 24 hours ago and it is still in the general feed, which had never happened before 😱

[Neodarkside]

11 hours ago, Simpossible_xx said:

It's already made impact. I've uploaded my new outfit for sims more than 24 hours ago and it is still in the general feed, which had never happened before 😱

 

Did I miss something? Because I still see 90% CAS SIms spamming the front page. Or do I need to do something with that link first, clicked it and well... I have no idea how to set that up.

 

23 hours ago, Pamatronic said:

I know that people have raised this issue countless times in the past, And site management has displayed precious little interest in doing ANYTHING about it, so I'm under no Illusion that this post here will change anything. I merely want to avoid the impression that this Situation has been accepted by the wider parts of the remaining site users.

So, as the most recent Example of this insanity, I want to direct your attention at this shit here:

  Hide contents

 

Literally both the new topics and new Files section are (almost) exclusively filled with low effort spam. And this is a fairly common sight these days.
And recently, its not just the usual e-begging hackjobs who spam out their trash and suck up all the oxygen, But we´ve also seen a rise of obvious AI´s posting random shit all over the forum. Usually this was confined to text posts, but I wouldn't be too surprised if that has already expanded into the upload section.

 

So @Ashal, my question is, Is it REALLY that much of an impossibility to implement a daily upload limit or SOMETHING to make this site look like it ISN'T populated entirely by bots?

 

Because every time I go here, I see the same shit. Mostly Spam, and the occasional guy in a support thread who didn't bother to read the frontpage.
So all in al,l I see very precious reason for me to remain on the site and keep uploading here.
As it stands, For me and a lot of other modders its just far more practical to simply stick to their discords and handle uploads and support there. (Or simply go to Arca...)
Which is unfortunate because this site used to be quite fun and interesting when new Ideas and discussions could actually go somewhere.

Anyway, rant over.

 

And I agree with Pamatronic, its annoying low effort junk. Especially when they are on Patreon making money off someone elses hard work, something that STILL pisses me off since

the last great Sims issue we had a year or so ago.

 

18 hours ago, Ashal said:

And as I said then, just because it's content you're personally not interested in doesn't make it spam. It's certainly not bots uploading, either. Though yes, there has been a rise lately in spam bots for text posts, this is nothing new and has always risen and lowered with frequency over the years, we delete it on site as we always have.

 

I'll go ahead and remove custom sims from the file/topic feed, though, if they bother people that much.

 

I just don't see somebody dumping a handful of sims on the site every now and then as an epidemic, they show on the file feed for a little bit, and then they're gone. It's a global feed, after all; it shows everything. Custom activity streams can be set up for users wanting more selective feeds.

 

Just my 2 cents, and I was part of the last (first?) great Sims debate when Sim spammers were constantly refreshing their Sims to show up on the updated files page. Its funny because it shouldn't bother me seeing them, but it does. Why? Its still mostly the Patreon aspect of it for me. Most of the Sims spammers lock their stuff behind paywalls and use LL as their personal advertisement space. They are making money off just slapping together a Sim and then putting it on Patreon and then posting here with a freebie to entice them to pay them. We have lost way to many great CC creators stretching back to Sims 1 or 2 because people try to profit off their work. Plus its against EAs ToS to profit off the game in any way, as much as I'd like to stick it to them, I care about the CC creators more.

 

To me, its just spam I dislike seeing. Its one of those things were once one person started, many followed suit. I could go to my gallery in game and flood the front page with the 1000 some Sims I've made since getting Sims 4, but I don't care to. I often look at other peoples stuff and see Hot, Sexy, etc in the title and just cringe at their idea of it. Its also like, the person Pamatronic is pointing out, they posted like 7 Sims in a row, just a header pic and a name, nothing else, didn't do any effort to show outfits, angles, etc. Plus they are all individual posts, that could have been 1 post with all 7+ sims they made and not spamming front page.

 

I don't even know what new content was added to the site these days, All I see is the sim spam.

[Neodarkside]

Oh wait, that update only affects the New Files section, not the front page new uploads section.

[travelmedic]

Would a "No Patreon for new accounts" or "No Patreon until xxx number of uploads/downloads" rule be feasible?  It could be time based, with allowable exceptions for someone who turns out something big that garners lots of downloads.

 

There does seem to be a an increase over the last year or two of unknown people with no history of output who suddenly think they're the Leonardo da Vinci of Simsdom, and are therefore entitled to make big Patreon dollars.  A rule would force people to have a proven track record before they can stick their hand out.

 

 

 

FWIW, I know nothing about creating Sims mods and will accept that some of them are "low effort."  That doesn't mean that all of them are not interesting, I still download and use a few of them.  What's more annoying to me is the way some mod authors spam the downloads section by making minor text changes to their page description to bump them to the top of the list.

 

Finally, to give credit where it's due, @Ashal it was a HUGE leap forward when you split off the Sims 4 - Sims page from the main Sims 4 page a year or two ago.  It didn't solve all issues, but IMHO it helped A LOT.  Thanks for that.

[Pamatronic]

11 minutes ago, travelmedic said:

Would a "No Patreon for new accounts" or "No Patreon until xxx number of uploads/downloads" rule be feasible?

Wouldn't that just incentivize them even more to spam out low effort uploads just to get the numbers?

[Neodarkside]

5 hours ago, travelmedic said:

Would a "No Patreon for new accounts" or "No Patreon until xxx number of uploads/downloads" rule be feasible?  It could be time based, with allowable exceptions for someone who turns out something big that garners lots of downloads.

 

Finally, to give credit where it's due, @Ashal it was a HUGE leap forward when you split off the Sims 4 - Sims page from the main Sims 4 page a year or two ago.  It didn't solve all issues, but IMHO it helped A LOT.  Thanks for that.

 

Very doubtful, but like Pamatronic said, it would encourage spammers to increase their numbers. Personally I'd just flat out ban Patreon entirely, but thats just me. If you want to promote your Patreon and make big bucks off someones elses work, do it elsewhere. And to clarify, ban Patreon for CAS Sims. Not ban it for people who actually MAKE CC or Animations, you know, effort. I would sub to a animator any day, I won't for someone who slapped together other peoples work and called it Hot and Sexy to entice downloads.

 

And yes, much credit, much thanks for that. I am at least able to find stuff in the Sims category since then.

[travelmedic]

8 hours ago, Pamatronic said:

Wouldn't that just incentivize them even more to spam out low effort uploads just to get the numbers?

 

Possibly so.  I don't know if there's any easy solution, short of having a whole team of 24/7 moderators to stamp out abusers.  Sadly, that is probably not a feasible option at this time, no matter how much the users and/or moderators/admin may like that idea.

[Twycross448]

Basically, you can break it down to the usual core problem. As soon as money gets into the equation, everything goes down the drain. ^_^"

 

While it isn't a solution, I will be honest and say I liked the modding community as a whole (regardless of game) better in the old days, when monetization had not yet reared its head and people where making mods either because it was fun for them or because they wanted to give something to the wider community. Nowadays, it feels like at least half of the modders for any given game are only in it for the money. "Feels like" being the operative word pair here. And Sims 4 just stands out in that regard.

Don't get me wrong. I support some endeavours myself on sites like SubStar or Patreon. LL itself, for example. Or Elminster and the xEdit team. But I would never dream of giving money to someone who just uploads custom sims or hair recolours.

 

Gah, listen to me old stooger sneeze it out. Sorry. Rant over. I'll just sit in my corner and mumble to myself.

 

 

EDIT:

Little addendum because my significant other told me so: making a custom Sim *can* in fact be some work. Saying "all custom Sims are low effort" is not entirely correct. Allegedly.

[Neodarkside]

6 hours ago, Twycross448 said:

Basically, you can break it down to the usual core problem. As soon as money gets into the equation, everything goes down the drain. ^_^"

 

While it isn't a solution, I will be honest and say I liked the modding community as a whole (regardless of game) better in the old days, when monetization had not yet reared its head and people where making mods either because it was fun for them or because they wanted to give something to the wider community. Nowadays, it feels like at least half of the modders for any given game are only in it for the money. "Feels like" being the operative word pair here. And Sims 4 just stands out in that regard.

Don't get me wrong. I support some endeavours myself on sites like SubStar or Patreon. LL itself, for example. Or Elminster and the xEdit team. But I would never dream of giving money to someone who just uploads custom sims or hair recolours.

 

Gah, listen to me old stooger sneeze it out. Sorry. Rant over. I'll just sit in my corner and mumble to myself.

 

 

EDIT:

Little addendum because my significant other told me so: making a custom Sim *can* in fact be some work. Saying "all custom Sims are low effort" is not entirely correct. Allegedly.

 

I watched many CC creators yank their stuff offline for many reasons, Tumblr saying Fuck you to their community and banning adult content (which MADE Tumblr popular in the first place), even when most SIms CC wasn't really adult content. Or they quit because they watched their creations be used on Paysites without any permission given. We've fought this battle before Patreon ever existed, we didn't fare as well, but there was a site that existed soley to ruin Paysites, quite literally called Paysitesmustbedestroyed, and it hosted Paysite content for free.

 

I know Sims characters are not the fastest thing to make, I know personally that a single Sim can be 20-60 minutes depending on how detailed I want to go, and how distracted I am as I often have YT playing on my laptop beside me. I also know I can crank out a few generic sims pretty fast if I know what content to pick ahead of time. Still, when money becomes involved is when the line becomes instantly drawn. Its against EA's TOS, they rarely will enforce it and Patreon demands ALOT of proof before they take action, not to mention I believe you need to sub to that Patreon first before you can even report them. But like it was mentioned earlier, WAY to many use this site as their advertisement board, they post 1-2 freebies, then lock the rest behind a paywall.

 

This is why the constant stream of Sims spam is disgusting to me. Not counting the fact that 90% of peoples "HOT" or "SEXY" Sims.... are veeeeeeeery unappealing to me. I do not go for the photo realistic skins most people use and even if I DO install the CC of any given sim, they do NOT look like their heavily edited glam shot pic they posted here as well.

[FacialLinks]

On 8/7/2024 at 6:24 PM, Pamatronic said:

I know that people have raised this issue countless times in the past, And site management has displayed precious little interest in doing ANYTHING about it, so I'm under no Illusion that this post here will change anything. I merely want to avoid the impression that this Situation has been accepted by the wider parts of the remaining site users.

So, as the most recent Example of this insanity, I want to direct your attention at this shit here:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Literally both the new topics and new Files section are (almost) exclusively filled with low effort spam. And this is a fairly common sight these days.
And recently, its not just the usual e-begging hackjobs who spam out their trash and suck up all the oxygen, But we´ve also seen a rise of obvious AI´s posting random shit all over the forum. Usually this was confined to text posts, but I wouldn't be too surprised if that has already expanded into the upload section.

 

So @Ashal, my question is, Is it REALLY that much of an impossibility to implement a daily upload limit or SOMETHING to make this site look like it ISN'T populated entirely by bots?

 

Because every time I go here, I see the same shit. Mostly Spam, and the occasional guy in a support thread who didn't bother to read the frontpage.
So all in al,l I see very precious reason for me to remain on the site and keep uploading here.
As it stands, For me and a lot of other modders its just far more practical to simply stick to their discords and handle uploads and support there. (Or simply go to Arca...)
Which is unfortunate because this site used to be quite fun and interesting when new Ideas and discussions could actually go somewhere.

Anyway, rant over.

This site just does not care, it is mostly a sims spam site.

Still having a little bit of real modders. But most of them went to other sites already.

How is possible that this site is maintained with just 2 and half moderators?

Rules? Last time they updated I was still doing sex (yeah, I am fucking old.)

[Miauzi]

Vor 7 Stunden sagte FacialLinks:

Dieser Seite ist das einfach egal, sie ist größtenteils eine Sims-Spam-Seite.

Ich habe immer noch ein paar echte Modder. Aber die meisten von ihnen sind bereits auf andere Seiten gegangen.

Wie ist es möglich, dass diese Seite mit nur zweieinhalb Moderatoren gepflegt wird?

Regeln? Als sie das letzte Mal aktualisiert haben, habe ich immer noch Sex gemacht (ja, ich bin verdammt alt.)

 

You should be glad that there are only 2.5 moderators - on other sites you would have been "removed" long ago because of such comments.

 

[Ashal]

10 hours ago, FacialLinks said:

This site just does not care, it is mostly a sims spam site.

Still having a little bit of real modders. But most of them went to other sites already.

How is possible that this site is maintained with just 2 and half moderators?

Rules? Last time they updated I was still doing sex (yeah, I am fucking old.)

 

Are you seriously judging us based on the fact that "2.5 moderators" have been enough to maintain the site's current moderation needs for the past months? Or that our rules have been solid enough to cover most every other issue for the past years?

 

I'm terribly sorry our effectiveness has offended you so. 🙃

 

The site will adapt as it needs to, as it always has.

[Blaze69]

I was definitely tired of the crappy sim preset spam with blatant Patreon shilling and artificial description editing to bump mod pages up, so I have to say I'm very pleased both with the previous measures of splitting them off into their own ghetto category where they won't shit up the main game category as much, and with the latest action of preventing them from showing up on the "New Files" section. I actually got to see a file I was interested in, which is a first ever since it's usually just full of that endless spam. So thanks for listening to people's concerns and taking action.

 

Re: Patreon shilling, if it was up to me I'd just ban any Patreon advertisement whatsoever, other than LL's own of course (because the site needs to be up for people to continue posting mods). Alternatively, ban any Patreon advertisement for Sims mods in particular, since those are the real issue IMO; not that there aren't greedy slobs making low-quality/effort mods as blatant shilling of their paywall in other games, but in this specific case they are the worst offenders here.

 

But I'm also not (too) dumb so I'm fully aware greed and blatant paywall shilling is deeply entwined with Sims modding as a whole so doing that would probably have a lot of drawbacks. Oh, well. Guess those of us making mods for fun and to share them with the community are a dying breed, and it's all about the grind and the $$$ now. I hope at least some of those "people" actually contribute to keeping LL up, since they're obviously making money from the site themselves. 🙃

Edited August 10, 2024 by Blaze69