New Site Rule Needed - mods containing non-consensual sex should be prominently labeled

[aurreth]

Imagine my surprise when a mod named "Amorous Adventures" suddenly produced a rape scene.  I, personally, don't consider rape to be amorous.  

 

I avoid mods that feature rape.  You can guess why.  I don't use Cursed Loot, or the majority of the slavery mods.  If I know there is non-consensual sex I avoid the mod.  BUT, I need to know it is there.

 

I'm not saying these mods should be banned, your game, play it your way.  But mod descriptions should contain a warning on their description page/first post that they contain non-consensual scenes, out of respect to those that have been traumatized by sexual assault.  If it can't be a site rule for some reason, I encourage mod authors/maintainers to do the respectful thing and self-police.

 

Now I'm off to uninstall yet another mod with unpleasant surprises mid-game and hope I don't break everything.

 

EDIT:  It was Sexlab Solutions, not Amorous Adventures.  Same issue, non-consensual sex scene triggered with no way to stop it, and no indication from the dialogue that it would occur.

[donttouchmethere]

I see you are using a few devious mods that include humiliation and non con bondage. What if users don't like those either?

What happens if you switch your consensual Sexlab animations to aggressive?

There will be a long list of warnings ^^

I encourage mod users to do the respectful thing and self-police, before there will be more comments like "This devious mod includes too much bondage!" or "this creature approach mod includes sex with creatures!"

 

For users like you it would be best to add a warning: "don't use if you can't differentiate between a game and reality" to all mods.

[KoolHndLuke]

Firmly agree with donttouchmethere- it is just a game (not real) and to police your own shit and don't expect/ask the site to do it for you.

 

BTW- just about every LL sex mod I've ever used includes options to toggle features and animations on/off iirc. If not then there are still other ways to edit things to your liking.

 

 

[aurreth]

7 hours ago, donttouchmethere said:

For users like you it would be best to add a warning: "don't use if you can't differentiate between a game and reality" to all mods.

 

 

3 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

Firmly agree with donttouchmethere- it is just a game (not real) and to police your own shit and don't expect/ask the site to do it for you.

 

Can't "police my own shit" if I'm not informed.  Can't edit to remove the one rape scene the author for some reason thought was funny if you don't know it's there.  Can't toggle it off if the mod doesn't respect the toggle (Deviously Cursed Loot does not respect its own rape toggle and has rape scenes hard coded in).

 

But sure, the problem is me wanting to be able to make an informed decision.  It's my fault.  I'm asking for it.

 

 

[TheOrcInHeels]

There are many topics out there that people may dislike. NonCon is definitely one of those.

 

I agree with the OP, I appreciate the sensitive author who anticipate and warn their potential user base about some of them.

 

[Grey Cloud]

13 minutes ago, aurreth said:

Can't "police my own shit" if I'm not informed.  Can't edit to remove the one rape scene the author for some reason thought was funny if you don't know it's there.  Can't toggle it off if the mod doesn't respect the toggle (Deviously Cursed Loot does not respect its own rape toggle and has rape scenes hard coded in).

When you find animations in your game that you do not like then you have the options which @KoolHndLuke laid out. I doubt there is anyone on this site who likes every feature of every mod they use.

I'm not interested in rape stuff myself. All sex in my game is 'consensual' in so far as it can be when I am the one deciding the who, where, when and why sex takes place. This is the case whether I play as male or female.

I use HCOS. HCOS includes vore animations. I do not like vore animations so I do not enable the animations in SLAL. I do not see vore animations in my game.

 

19 minutes ago, aurreth said:

But sure, the problem is me wanting to be able to make an informed decision.

So, unable to come up with an intellect based rebuttal of the others you have to resort to a childish, emotion based attempt at the moral high ground. Do you make same demands of non-sex mods that contain elements that are not documented?

 

25 minutes ago, aurreth said:

It's my fault.  I'm asking for it.

Oh please, this is supposed to be an adult site.

 

15 minutes ago, TheOrcInHeels said:

I appreciate the sensitive author who anticipate and warn their potential user base about some of them.

Most of us appreciate authors' giving full descriptions of their mod whether it is a sex mod or not. There is a big step from that to wanting such descriptions to be mandatory.

[Lyman the Lunatic]

Why? You can just delete the mod off your game, though. Mods are free & very much optional. You don't need it to play your game. Also, aren't you supposed to read a lot before installing a mod, anyhow?

I don't think I understand your frustration. I read the other reply of yours & it looks more like an MCM bug than the creator's intention itself. It happens every now & then. if anything, my game is super broken right now & I am in desperate need for help as well. Earlier today, my stupid MCM decided to forgets ALL of my Sexlab settings & enable all SLAL animations. Suffice to say, I have a very upsetting afternoon.

If you mean some forum thread needs some proper tagging or how LL search feature is terrible, then sure. I have a hard time using the search bar here I have to use google instead.

But then, I didn't use Amorous Adventures so I actually don't know the content that lies within.

I don't use Amorous Adventures, the page did said everything is meant to be consensual. So to me it looks like an MCM issue on your end than anything else. Maybe ask for help in that post instead?

[LongDukDong]

1 hour ago, Lyman the Lunatic said:

I don't use Amorous Adventures, the page did said everything is meant to be consensual.

I can confirm that statement with this

 

On 4/12/2014 at 5:17 AM, FoxFingers said:

This mod does not contain any fetish or extreme SexLab content. Everything occurs between consenting adults.

And FoxFinger's last update was version v3.4 from 2018... though apparently continued by other members here in their own posts, one by vitasgo, another by jackp using the older version 1.2.1 edition, and an SE port of jackp's version by nomkaz. However, theirs made no such declaration on the content.

 

Now I won't doubt you encountered some content, for you obviously did.  The immediate questions I would pose would be 'which version you had used' and 'was the rape act specific for the characters (ie dialog consistent with the story or etc).'

 

This is merely just asking as the author(s) have not posted in their defense. That, and the original author had stated it was consensual only.  I cannot say for the others as no such declarations were made.

 

Hm... and I acting as a defense attorney?

 

Whenever I see a mod that 'does' have such content... the author typically does post some statement or disclaimer...

[pinky6225]

Which quest are we talking about? while its a while since i've played it i don't recall any rape scenes within the version created by foxfingers

[Deman40]

If you wanna be informed read the "Entire" thread and descriptions.I think there are animation tag editors so you can delete the offensive ones.Like stated before I DL animation packs with things I don't like and just disable them.I big into the "it's a fantasy game" there are actions and perversions that most folks wouldn't tolerate in RL but will in a fantasy game.Have Happy Holidays!

[donttouchmethere]

 

 

18 hours ago, aurreth said:

toggle (Deviously Cursed Loot does not respect its own rape toggle and has rape scenes hard coded in).

Why the hell would you like to use DCL? ?

No worries tho, just wear a full chastity set and all sexlab scenes will fail ?

That's a classic: "This devious enslavement mod has too much rape in it" ?‍♂️

"Look at me, completely bound and helpless and walking thru a lawless wilderness. What could go wrong?" ?

 

18 hours ago, aurreth said:

Can't edit to remove the one rape scene

If you find out what quest stages are connected to that scene you might be able to just skip it via console.

 

18 hours ago, aurreth said:

Can't "police my own shit" if I'm not informed. 

You can, if you know how to skip the shit ?

 

But wait there is more!

Because it's a game you have multiple ways to deal with it:

• getstage/setstage console command and skip the quest ?
• does the quest have multiple choices?
• do you even need to play that quest line?
• revenge! Kill em all ☠️
• revenge! Use a pet collar on that rapist and let him suffer the same way (that's my fav revenge) ?
• be prepared... put a chastity belt on that rapist, the worst thing that can happen is a failed Sexlab scene ^^
• stop the scene and choose one of the revenge options o.O
• learn how to safely remove mods?
• Start a discussion about ethics while analyzing if the famous scene in Shades of Grey is rape or did someone ask for it? That should cool him down lol
• read https://geekfeminism.fandom.com/wiki/LoversLab_Analysis
• in the worst case scenario you could learn how to mod the mods
• change the dialogue and a rape scene becomes a "you need it? Can you even handle me?" scene (The James Bond version)
• Remember it's all in your head, those pixels are a bit unaware of what they are doing

For me it all sounds like the classic case of: I don't like it, I'm too lazy to find a workaround, so no one else should like it.

 

[Vader666]

7 hours ago, Grey Cloud said:

Do you make same demands of non-sex mods that contain elements that are not documented?

 

I love all those mods which say nothing but "this mod overhauls the gameplay and improves mechanics in general" in their description...

 

Sure there are mods where it's painfully obvious what they're about, ranting about there is slavery in Sanguine's Debauchery would be pretty hilarious.

However i was pretty much suprised a couple of times where mods contained things i wouldn't have expected, and im not talking about animations.

 

So yes, mods should have stuff like that mentioned in their description if its not to be expected by the mods name or screenshots.

[Grey Cloud]

21 minutes ago, Vader666 said:

However i was pretty much suprised a couple of times where mods contained things i wouldn't have expected,

Yes that happens all the time and when the 'extras' are nothing to do with what the mod is about it is fucking annoying especially if something goes wrong in game and you have no reason to suspect the mod that is actually causing the problem. USLEEP is one of the worst offenders when it comes to altering things that it has no reason to.

In a perfect world every mod would be fully documented but . . .

[Mez558]

19 hours ago, aurreth said:

I'm not saying these mods should be banned, your game, play it your way.  But mod descriptions should contain a warning on their description page/first post that they contain non-consensual scenes, out of respect to those that have been traumatized by sexual assault.  If it can't be a site rule for some reason, I encourage mod authors/maintainers to do the respectful thing and self-police.

 

Was it the animation that was rapey or the dialogue that proceeded it?

If it was the animation then find that animation and turn it off in SexLab - This will stop that animation getting used by Sexlab mods. If the animation came from a SLAL pack make sure not to turn it on for your future play throughs.

 

Spoiler

 

Also, if this is the case and it is the animation that you found distasteful then try to avoid the Non-Consensual sort.
Billyy's are mostly consensual, certainly his most recent work is, if you avoid the DD ones, some of those are still consensual but mostly not, I would say.

Most animators make it clear which way their work leans.

 

If it were the dialogue and scene that made the event non-consensual then I cannot off much help except to ask what was it? The only one I can think of that might have leaned that way was the Giant/Cow offering event but it's been a while since I've used the mod so I don't really remember.

However, if there is a Sexlab event that you want to end then you can do that in Sexlab MCM under Rebuild & Clean > Stop Current Animations

 

Spoiler

 

[aurreth]

7 minutes ago, Mez558 said:

 

Was it the animation that was rapey or the dialogue that proceeded it?
 

 

The Illusion trainer in the College.  He asks "can you see me", and if you sarcastically reply "no" he initiates a sex scene.  There are two possible dialogs to "stop" him (basically 'wait, I can see you').  Neither one of them stops the scene, sex is forced on you.  And yes, I tried them both by force quitting the game when the animations were started, and trying the second option to see if it avoids the problem.  You either tell him "yes I can see you", or you get assaulted, and there is no indication before it happens that rape is the consequence of trying to have a sense of humor.

 

Vanilla, you can tell him the same thing, 'no I can't see you', and there is of course no rape.  The vanilla line was coopted.

 

The mod is SexLab Solutions.  I went back and reread the descriptions.  No mention of non-consensual sex.  This is the only place I've found in the mod where this occurs, which is a shame because it has a lot of fun ways in it to advance quests.  But all of those involve choice, this didn't.

[Mez558]

27 minutes ago, aurreth said:

 

The Illusion trainer in the College.  He asks "can you see me", and if you sarcastically reply "no" he initiates a sex scene.

 

Right, forgot about that one.

Using the SexLab option of Stop animation will complete/end that event.

 

Also, under Toggle Animations that I showed earlier, if you click on Toggle Animations at the top of the screen (Next to View: ) it will cycle through the basic animation tags. One is Aggressive, if you uncheck all the animations there so no animation you have is considered aggressive by SL then it may not do anything in case of these sort of events. I say "May." The event is looking to call an aggressive animation but in the case it doesn't find any it might just pull a non-aggressive one instead, I am not sure.

[Sgt. Marge]

33 minutes ago, aurreth said:

The mod is SexLab Solutions.  I went back and reread the descriptions.  No mention of non-consensual sex.  This is the only place I've found in the mod where this occurs, which is a shame because it has a lot of fun ways in it to advance quests.  But all of those involve choice, this didn't.

 

That's unfortunate, thanks for tracking it down.  I agree that mods should be tagged, after all there is a tag feature on the site. 

 

I think you can end a sexlab scene by pressing the "End" button on your keyboard, in case you run into an animation that isn't tagged correctly or isn't something you want.

 

I will also say I'm disappointed in the tone of some of the responses.  Let's be a little more considerate here folks.  The mod should have a rape tag, it doesn't, and that isn't good.  I understand some of the arguments that are being made, but they could be presented in a less condescending way...

[aurreth]

14 minutes ago, Marg597 said:

 

That's unfortunate, thanks for tracking it down.  I agree that mods should be tagged, after all there is a tag feature on the site. 

 

I think you can end a sexlab scene by pressing the "End" button on your keyboard, in case you run into an animation that isn't tagged correctly or isn't something you want.

 

I will also say I'm disappointed in the tone of some of the responses.  Let's be a little more considerate here folks.  The mod should have a rape tag, it doesn't, and that isn't good.  I understand some of the arguments that are being made, but they could be presented in a less condescending way...

 

Thank you for your suggestions.

[Pamatronic]

5 minutes ago, lotus.angel said:

RAPE CAN BE MISSIONARY BY YOUR HUSBAND.....Do you REALLY wanna go there?

Going by that logic, EVERY animation CAN be rape. Do I wanna go there? yeah, sounds kinda fun ?.

 

But seriously, If its THAT easy to trigger someone, maybe the only feasible solution is for that person to... I dont know... maybe stay away from sexmods?

I know that this sounds Insensitive, and it probably is, But When mod authors ALREADY have gone the extra mile to add tags, and Sexlab even having "Agressive" animations disabled by default, what more do you want?

[Vader666]

28 minutes ago, lotus.angel said:

Censorship sucks.

 

Things got mixed up here, since this isn't about censorship at all.

Think about you bought a bar of choclate only to discover its a choclate-cheese mix, without saying so on the package.

Wouldn't you want the manufacturer of that choclate to inform you about the cheese part on the package ?

 

35 minutes ago, lotus.angel said:

RAPE TAGS...

 

Im pretty sure it wasn't about animation tags but the tags you can add to your mod page.

Which wouldn't be a good solution in my opinion since they're way to less specific about how much and where this is part of the mod.

And ultimately i don't think people care about tags at all.

 

19 minutes ago, Pamatronic said:

Going by that logic, EVERY animation CAN be rape.

 

Which is why the whole "toggle off animations" routine is in vain.

If you take the situation described here :

 

1 hour ago, aurreth said:

There are two possible dialogs to "stop" him (basically 'wait, I can see you').  Neither one of them stops the scene, sex is forced on you.

 

you'll get a non consent scene regardless of which animation is used in that scene.

[donttouchmethere]

If it overwrites the vanilla quest it should be possible via TES5edit to just let vanilla win over the mod that changes that quest.

Or it is possible to deactivate that mod quest via TES5edit (set to CUSTom).

 

(I know, not very detailed, would need to check the mod via Tes5edit myself)

[donttouchmethere]

I'm still slow with that. Maybe @Corsec can proofread my idea.

What probably would work is if you prevent SSv2NPCsDrevisTopic to start.

Easiest way would be to let Skyrim.esm win over SexLab_Solutions.esp

 

Unmodifed

Spoiler

 

Skyrim.esp overwrites Sex_Solutions.esp for only this dialogue topic

SexLab_Solution.esp will be modified

(basically just copied skyrim.esp values to Sexlab_Solution_esp, but only for this topic)

Spoiler

Result would be that SSv2NPCsDrevisTopic doesn't get triggered, while the vanilla quest stays intact.

 

Alternative would be a Tes5edit patch or modified Smashed Patch so the SLsolution esp doesn't get modified (or just make a backup of the esp)

[LongDukDong]

I think we're losing sight of the original premise.

 

When aurreth began this thread, he suggested that there be some form of notification of contents.  In his own words: "But mod descriptions should contain a warning on their description page/first post that they contain non-consensual scenes, out of respect to those that have been traumatized by sexual assault."  I don't see that as any problem.

 

Now granted, he mistakenly believed that Amorous Adventures was at fault. However that mod was innocent (er... innocent...? pfff... yeah...) and had only consensual sex throughout. Instead it was another mod that was guilty. And note that the other mod modified a 'vanilla' scene, so your choice (no matter what it was) resulted in unavoidable rape. Certainly, there are suggestions of removing said content, but know that the player (aurreth as an example) would not know it exists or where is lay.

 

As a modder, I do not see any reason why a mod doesn't have some form of disclaimer about content. Now this is less likely required for a 'feature' mod like LoversCreatures (Oblivion), Simple Slavery Plus (Skyrim SE) or X-Change Gender Change Pill (Fallout).  Those are fairly explanatory.  But a 'quest' mod with a story arc, one wouldn't know exactly what they are getting into unless actively told in the first page of the thread.

Insofar as quest mods, I have seen plenty that do contain disclaimers regarding humiliation, rape, slavery, sex-on-the-beach (the drink), and more. And why not? Movies and TV shows have ratings and some subtle disclaimers about the content?

 

I cannot say this should be a rule. However, I don't think it would hurt as a recommendation to anyone posting a mod of some sort. Perhaps when they actively enter the 'Submit New File' feature in the download manager, some text in the window suggests content disclaimers with examples.

[Ashal]

First off, I'm sorry for your experience and what you went through, it's something nobody should ever have to go through. Shame on anyone making light of it here.

 

I agree with most of the suggestions here but with some major exceptions. It's true you can have all the tools needed and investigative knowledge to figure out if a mod has content you don't like and prevent it from showing in many cases, however, expecting every user to have such technical knowledge is an unreasonable thing to expect.

 

We as a site could indeed be doing better at describing the content of a mod.

 

What the solution to that is, I'm not sure. I don't think adding a hard rule is the best solution and there are many abandoned mods that would never be updated to fall in line with such a rule. We do have a tagging system that is woefully underused, but again, it relies on absent authors to do the tags. One solution I've been thinking about for awhile now that would apply to this situation as well, is to get some volunteer community members to be official "taggers" and give them the ability to edit tags on a download from a list of predefined tags that describe the content of a mod. I'm just not sure what the best way to set something like that up would be and would need some time to think about it.

 

Improving the tagging system would both help people avoid triggering situations and help people find the specific kind of content they do want.

 

I'm open to discussing ideas and suggestions about it though.

[aurreth]

15 minutes ago, LongDukDong said:

When aurreth began this thread, he suggested that there be some form of notification of contents.  In his own words: "But mod descriptions should contain a warning on their description page/first post that they contain non-consensual scenes, out of respect to those that have been traumatized by sexual assault."  I don't see that as any problem.

 

She     It's why I brought it up.  And why I'm not engaging with the comments.