New Site Rule Needed - mods containing non-consensual sex should be prominently labeled

[donttouchmethere]

More about sexlab_solution:

Don't buy Skoma ?

(you can only trust @Grey Cloud if you need Skoma)

 

Spoiler

 

[steelpanther24]

11 minutes ago, Ashal said:

First off, I'm sorry for your experience and what you went through, it's something nobody should ever have to go through. Shame on anyone making light of it here.

 

I agree with most of the suggestions here but with some major exceptions. It's true you can have all the tools needed and investigative knowledge to figure out if a mod has content you don't like and prevent it from showing in many cases, however, expecting every user to have such technical knowledge is an unreasonable thing to expect.

 

We as a site could indeed be doing better at describing the content of a mod.

 

What the solution to that is, I'm not sure. I don't think adding a hard rule is the best solution and there are many abandoned mods that would never be updated to fall in line with such a rule. We do have a tagging system that is woefully underused, but again, it relies on absent authors to do the tags. One solution I've been thinking about for awhile now that would apply to this situation as well, is to get some volunteer community members to be official "taggers" and give them the ability to edit tags on a download from a list of predefined tags that describe the content of a mod. I'm just not sure what the best way to set something like that up would be and would need some time to think about it.

 

Improving the tagging system would both help people avoid triggering situations and help people find the specific kind of content they do want.

 

I'm open to discussing ideas and suggestions about it though.

 

Does that mean that if a MA makes a mod and does not tag it properly, there will be consequences?  What do you imagine those consequences to be?

 

 

[Ashal]

20 minutes ago, steelpanther24 said:

Does that mean that if a MA makes a mod and does not tag it properly, there will be consequences?  What do you imagine those consequences to be?

 

No consequences really. If going with the community tagger idea, it just means the mod author would not be the only one responsible for what tags are used. The author would be encouraged to properly tag their mod from the start, but the community would be able to fill in the gaps and update/fix tags as necessary rather than just the author alone.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Ashal said:

 

No consequences really. If going with the community tagger idea, it just means the mod author would not be the only one responsible for what tags are used. The author would be encouraged to properly tag their mod from the start, but the community would be able to fill in the gaps and update/fix tags as necessary rather than just the author alone.

> I like this idea, I am just afraid that some mod authors might be offended with people's involvement and got angry deleting their mod. My husband, when he played Skyrim, was member of Nexus. He suggested to one mod author to correct his mod description since the body wasn't UNP but CBB. The mod author complained to the stuff as being molested by him and they blocked him. Anyway, I believe you understand my point. I remember the time blog stories were properly tagged and if they had bestiality and raping scenes, readers were warned about it. Now, only some people do it. Therefore I understand this thread author's frustration and agree with him that mod descriptions should be done better.

[Sillius_Maximus]

1 hour ago, Ashal said:

First off, I'm sorry for your experience and what you went through, it's something nobody should ever have to go through. Shame on anyone making light of it here.

 

I agree with most of the suggestions here but with some major exceptions. It's true you can have all the tools needed and investigative knowledge to figure out if a mod has content you don't like and prevent it from showing in many cases, however, expecting every user to have such technical knowledge is an unreasonable thing to expect.

 

We as a site could indeed be doing better at describing the content of a mod.

 

What the solution to that is, I'm not sure. I don't think adding a hard rule is the best solution and there are many abandoned mods that would never be updated to fall in line with such a rule. We do have a tagging system that is woefully underused, but again, it relies on absent authors to do the tags. One solution I've been thinking about for awhile now that would apply to this situation as well, is to get some volunteer community members to be official "taggers" and give them the ability to edit tags on a download from a list of predefined tags that describe the content of a mod. I'm just not sure what the best way to set something like that up would be and would need some time to think about it.

 

Improving the tagging system would both help people avoid triggering situations and help people find the specific kind of content they do want.

 

I'm open to discussing ideas and suggestions about it though.

Ashal,

 

On tagging, I think I have a fairly equitable solution, but no clue how feasible it is from a technical perspective.

It seems that some of the concerns about tags and disclaimers is "how far do we need to go, is saying non con fine, or non con bondage, non con this, etc etc etc" down to the number of wraps on some devious device armbinder.

I know that I can tag blog posts I make, I am not sure if there is a predefined list of tags, or if "Create your own" is allowed.

If users were allowed to tag, you would wind up with a whole lot of nonsense tags.
If it was entirely up to the creator to list every single tag- that might be a huge time sink.. goodness knows they spend enough time making the damn mod..

What I would propose is a 3-4 step process,  it doesnt force any particular person (user or creator) to do anything, so it is infact entirely consensual.

a) create a tag or tags...  <Non Con - NPC> <Non Con- beasts> <Non Con - all>  or perhaps even simpler.. <rape> <beasts> <BDSM> (in case the presence of any bdsm, regardless of subjective "light/heavy" modifiers is unpleasant)
b) allow those who download a mod, to select a few keywords that they feel fit the mod.
c) allow the creator, to review the number of times a keyword has been voted/selected, and add that tag if they choose too.
d) make results filterable by presence of certain keywords...

Use case:
  someone downloads devious devices..  someone tags that mod with "BDSM" and "Rape"...... 10 more people download that mod, all tag it with BDSM, no one tags it with rape..  (to my knowledge, rape would be a nonsense tag for DD, as DD is largely just items  that other mods use/require??)  Some time later, Kimmy? happens to take a look at the suggested tags for DD, and sees  10 votes for BDSM, 1 vote for Rape..  well, they skip the rape because they dont agree that it fits - but they do add the BDSM tag...

This allows - the users to "do the work" of tagging, 
Allows creators to not have to worry about "nonsense tags"  If 400 folk tag it as _____ and only one tags it as _____ then, chances are the 400 could be on to something, the 1 is...being ornery.

Non sense tag would be like someone tagging my conversion of namira`s Goat with <Rape> or <BDSM>///  both would be nonsense tags...  <Cannabalism> on the other hand, would be a very good tag.  
 

[Vader666]

1 hour ago, steelpanther24 said:

What do you imagine those consequences to be?

 

They would forcefully recieve a game update every 3 days.

 

 

[Lyman the Lunatic]

Oh so it's Sexlab Solutions. Yeah I don't like that mod either, it's a bucket of surprises & broken scenes. I suggest posting it in the thread itself, it is possible the mod creator may have forgotten about it. Y'know, not out of malice.

But then, I went to the original page itself, this is what it says

"- Drevis - Drevis gets really handsy once you confirm he's invisible."

So I don't know, the author already did the duty I'd say. I didn't expect Ashal to show up. Designated taggers sounded like an interesting idea. This pandemic gave me a lot of time on my hands so I'd have something to do now at the very least. But then, I hate steam because every monkey could tag anything on a game & I hate how tags like "Strategy" or "RTS" gets put on something like Call of Duty...

Since the author did the duty,all I have left to say is sometimes it is better to keep your composure. Some mods are so big something slip through either by you or the modder. This time it's on your end. I get it, your traumatic past makes you feel uncomfortable with the sort of thing. Now you have a reason to avoid Sexlab Solutions like me now, although for different reasons.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, lotus.angel said:

Well, I tried....

 

“Oh well, whatever, nevermind.”

― Kurt Cobain

 

bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[Kaldor Draigo]

there doesnt need to be a rule for this

[aurreth]

50 minutes ago, Lyman the Lunatic said:

Oh so it's Sexlab Solutions. Yeah I don't like that mod either, it's a bucket of surprises & broken scenes. I suggest posting it in the thread itself, it is possible the mod creator may have forgotten about it. Y'know, not out of malice.

But then, I went to the original page itself, this is what it says

"- Drevis - Drevis gets really handsy once you confirm he's invisible."

So I don't know, the author already did the duty I'd say. I didn't expect Ashal to show up. Designated taggers sounded like an interesting idea. This pandemic gave me a lot of time on my hands so I'd have something to do now at the very least. But then, I hate steam because every monkey could tag anything on a game & I hate how tags like "Strategy" or "RTS" gets put on something like Call of Duty...

Since the author did the duty,all I have left to say is sometimes it is better to keep your composure. Some mods are so big something slip through either by you or the modder. This time it's on your end. I get it, your traumatic past makes you feel uncomfortable with the sort of thing. Now you have a reason to avoid Sexlab Solutions like me now, although for different reasons.

 

"Handsy" isn't rape.  And there are two dialog choices following the trigger to tell him to stop, and he does not.  The existence of those two refusals implies choice, and there isn't any.

 

Everyone wants to make excuses.  How fucking hard is it?  If your mod contains non-consensual sex, say so.  You don't have to take it down, you don't have to rewrite it, just show some fucking compassion for those of us who have experienced the real thing.  Let us know, clearly, so we can skip your mod.

[LongDukDong]

As Ashal said... "No consequences really. If going with the community tagger idea, it just means the mod author would not be the only one responsible for what tags are used. The author would be encouraged to properly tag their mod from the start, but the community would be able to fill in the gaps and update/fix tags as necessary rather than just the author alone."  A burden I think would fall upon staff. Unless some liberties were added to non-staff members, possibly those members with some other title.

 

While Evaloves4 said " I like this idea, I am just afraid that some mod authors might offended with people's involvement and got angry deleting their mod."  I suggest that ... IF... said updating/tagging happens, that an automated PM is sent to the author like "Your uploaded mod's post has been edited to include current disclaimer tags. You may alter/edit/update the mod as you wish."  I figure 'automated' (if possible) so the one tagging the mod need not have to take time with a PM. And to not upset the original poster.

 

Sillius_Maximus suggested "a) create a tag or tags...  <Non Con - NPC> <Non Con- beasts> <Non Con - all>  or perhaps even simpler.. <rape> <beasts> <BDSM> (in case the presence of any bdsm, regardless of subjective "light/heavy" modifiers is unpleasant)"  I kinda agree on the note of keeping it simpler.  Rape, BDSM, Language, Nudity, Bestiality, Gore....  Would probably do well to make a list, and sort them until the more appropriate tags remain for use.  That in itself and how the tagging is implemented could be a worthy thread.   And it could serve to also notify/encourage said disclaimer usage.

 

And I clearly don't see why there would be opposition to letting anyone know what your mod contains, if said contents are of a heightened and sensitive nature, let others be aware.  This forum is a haven for adult mods afterall.

 

Twins?

[Lyman the Lunatic]

1 hour ago, aurreth said:

 

"Handsy" isn't rape.  And there are two dialog choices following the trigger to tell him to stop, and he does not.  The existence of those two refusals implies choice, and there isn't any.

 

Everyone wants to make excuses.  How fucking hard is it?  If your mod contains non-consensual sex, say so.  You don't have to take it down, you don't have to rewrite it, just show some fucking compassion for those of us who have experienced the real thing.  Let us know, clearly, so we can skip your mod.

It's a short bridge to cross from handsy to rape anyhow. It is not hard to imagine what comes next. It is still sexual harassment after all. Putting the 2 & 2 together shouldn't be beyond anyone's comprehension. Telling a rapist to stop is quite impossible anyway so I do see this Drevis to be rather authentic. it is not a matter of excuse, it's a matter of realism. So you're not into rape, some people do. Now you know to avoid Drevis, so avoid Drevis. I don't play Sexlab Solutions because a lot of the scenes are broken or incomplete. I don't even know if it's still even worked on. Instead of making a thread & stirring a pot here, I advise you propose a dialogue option to threat Drevis to hands off you.
And you do realize you can force end scenes, right? This gigantic avalance you're trying to make it out to be is just a snowfall.

Another user already mentioned it, just kill Drevis.

I also know there are non English mod authors here as well, so I wouldn't want to contribute malice right away. If you want to accuse me of making excuses, I can make the same assertion about you as well. So again, I advise you to retain your composure. I sympathize with your past trauma. Like I said, sometimes, things slip through the cracks. So, see if the mod is still being worked on, give your opinions there. Or you know, just delete the mod & go play something else instead of using your trauma as an excuse to make people cater to you like this.

[Kabal460]

7 minutes ago, Lyman the Lunatic said:

Or you know, just delete the mod & go play something else instead of using your trauma as an excuse to make people cater to you like this.

Had me up until this. My retort? "F- your freedom!"

 

And those BDSM mods? Yeah, they are romanticizing slavery, which is fundamentally racist. Think about that.

[tecckblade]

7 hours ago, Marg597 said:

 

That's unfortunate, thanks for tracking it down.  I agree that mods should be tagged, after all there is a tag feature on the site. 

 

I think you can end a sexlab scene by pressing the "End" button on your keyboard, in case you run into an animation that isn't tagged correctly or isn't something you want.

 

I will also say I'm disappointed in the tone of some of the responses.  Let's be a little more considerate here folks.  The mod should have a rape tag, it doesn't, and that isn't good.  I understand some of the arguments that are being made, but they could be presented in a less condescending way...

no they cannot be said an a less condescending way, no way he/she made a choice to download a mod and that mod had things he/she didn't like  delete it and move on. don't try to reinvent the wheel don't try to impose you desires on an entire community, what gives them that right. its not as if they asked her can we add a new tag for x y or z it was more like  DO THIS NAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the moment you start being demanding is the moment no one needs to treat you like a person that deserves respect. well at least that's my opinion. I respect  people who treat others with respect and not act entitled and demanding.     

[Guest]

Well, guess what. OPs post brought me out if my little private bubble. Suddenly I realized that perhaps I'm not exactly like everybody else afterall ?.

 

I think this thread is a good read for many. I don't see the harm in tagging mods either. It could be helpful in many ways.

[ElectroOracle]

Well, it doesn't cost much to put some words together like: there is rape, humiliation, violence. It could be simple as that.

AND users should fucking read mods descriptions, otherwise it's their fault if there is something they don't want to see but they don't bother to read a damn.

I hate bestiality when real animals are involved, monsters are ok, so I wouldn't be pleased getting a mod which doesn't say anything and find my characters fucked by a dog! It would be ideal if the mod description warned me about.

 

Just two words about which fetish the mod is handling, wouldn't be generally bad.

 

[pinky6225]

Tagging is a good idea but solutions is from what 2014 so how would you do that retrospectively? The encounter mentioned in it is one of the original ones i believe which then got continued/ported and out of the content its 1 of 96 quests/encounters changed/added so what would be an appropriate tag? As you wouldn't want tags to be deployed in the same way that warnings on food are (think how pretty much every foodstuff in the world says it may contain nuts)

[Grey Cloud]

Ye gods. What an absolute storm in a tea cup.

 

This is supposed to be an adult site, i.e. for adults. The site contains a large number of mods with sexual content and also a large number of mods with no sexual content. Download and use the mods you like, don't download and use the mods you don't like. Fucking simple.

 

All this stampede for the moral high-ground is just bollocks. How many people do you rob or murder in the vanilla game? It's a fantasy game - you have the choice to play it or not.

 

In the OP's OP she wrote:

"Now I'm off to uninstall yet another mod with unpleasant surprises mid-game and hope I don't break everything."

Well fucking diddums. If that is the biggest ball-ache in your life you are fucking lucky.

 

If mod authors want to write detailed descriptions then great, if they want to introduce tags in their mod then great. If you introduce a rule then you have to have a consequence for not adhering to the rule otherwise the rule is pointless. Is this a direction the site wants to go in - knee-jerk reaction rules to every whinge and moan?

[donttouchmethere]

1 hour ago, Grey Cloud said:

Ye gods. What an absolute storm in a tea cup.

Well said. I wasn't aware that drinking tea can be that dangerous. The whole English population must be DANGERSEEKERS!

 

Spoiler

 

[Guest]

> I think all is said what's on the people's heart about this subject and Ashal gave her opinion too. Every further comment just brings more disagreements and tension. We are community that (should) share our opinions, but also to find a compromise and help for our fellow member. I suggest to lock this thread.

[Grey Cloud]

7 minutes ago, donttouchmethere said:

Well said. I wasn't aware that drinking tea can be that dangerous.

This LL so it is more like a storm in a D-cup.

[Grey Cloud]

6 hours ago, Kabal460 said:

Yeah, they are romanticizing slavery, which is fundamentally racist. Think about that.

I did and I could not make any sense of it. I'm not an expert on BDSM but I fail to see how it romanticises anything or how it is connected to slavery. Slavery is most definitely not 'fundamentally racist'.

[donttouchmethere]

9 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

This LL so it is more like a storm in a D-cup.

I'm not sure what that could be ?

 

Spoiler

 

[Psalam]

Since this Thread has wandered so far afield it is now locked.

[Ashal]

4 hours ago, Grey Cloud said:

If you introduce a rule then you have to have a consequence for not adhering to the rule otherwise the rule is pointless. Is this a direction the site wants to go in - knee-jerk reaction rules to every whinge and moan?

 

I specifically said I don't want to make a rule about it because a rule would be dumb and unenforceable.  What I proposed was crowd sourced tagging for files. Who the hell do you expect me to be punishing in a crowd sourced system? The crowd? aka literally everybody? What I proposed was not a knee-jerk reaction, it was something I'd been thinking about adding for years now, and not to add "trigger warnings" but to add actually useful content descriptors that improve peoples ability to find the kind of content they want. And yeah, as a side-effect of this improvement to how people can search the site, people who get triggered would also benefit.

 

They presented a problem and suggested a solution, the only whinging going on is the people acting like dealing with this is somehow an afront to them personally. We get it, your big and tough and don't need no trigger warning. Not everybody is. Any change that may or may not happen to the site to accommodate that would have zero negative impact on you. So either accept that and shut up, or leave. Better yet, be constructive for a change instead of the ass you always self-proclaim to be. 

 

Now, instead of a positive thread trying to figure out how to make the site a more welcoming place for people, we have locked thread because some couldn't deal with the idea that not everybody handles personal trauma the same as them.