Just why though?

[Fiend71]

So, I need to mention something...

 

A lot of times you find a decent looking follower, and it abides by all your other mods.  Seems great.  And likely as cute as...

 

Problem is that, a lot of times the mod author has added some insanely over-powered shout, or something that ruins it for me.  

 

A great deal of the follower mods I've seen look awesome, and you know a ton of work went into them (more than I'd want to try), but that extra step to make them beyond silly.  Why?

 

I - the Dragonborn, need to be the source of awe - not my follower.   Otherwise it's just sheath your weapon, and watch your killer follower win the game for you.

 

I suppose for a build where the follower was more awesome, but when's that?  A sub PC - I do get that...

 

Just why though?  So many follower mods are immersion breaking that way.

 

I've seen many, at least.  To the point of reading every description like three times...lol (yes, I know I should anyway).

 

Anyhow, rant over.  

 

Hey everyone.

[Seijin8]

30 minutes ago, Fiend71 said:

immersion breaking

 

Find better excuses.  Immersion is entirely subjective.

 

Most ppl who make followers want them to be competitive in the game, and have no idea who is playing or what build, etc.  They want the character to be useful and have to fight with Bethesda's insanely shitty AI to make them that way.  Easiest (not best) to give them super-powers.

 

Personally, every follower that gets added to my game get reconditioned to fit my play style.  I give them keywords, behaviors/packages etc to make them fit in the world and be useful, whether following me or not.  If they don't have useful perks, I change them.  If they have stupid super-powers, I either give them weaknesses to match or just delete the powers, or create some kind of rationale for it.

 

It isn't up to any modder to make shit perfect for your game.  That's your job.

[Fiend71]

I get that, and can easily delete that using sseedit, but just didn't really get why.  A lot of followers already come with great perks - like decapitation, or a great block, or something else that does make them "unique".  

I'm just thinking of the times when I'm in bleak falls barrow, and my follower summons a flame atronoch.  I actually stop, turn around to look at them, and say WTF was that?!

 

I do realize it's not all about my playthrough, but did think an actual mod author or two might tell me why.  And clearly so.

 

Also, I truly don't think my idea of "immersion" is that much different than many others.  I could very well be wrong though.

 

Thanks for answering anyway.

[Seijin8]

5 minutes ago, Fiend71 said:

mod author or two might tell me why.  And clearly so.

 

Fair enough.

 

Here's a few off the top of my head.

1. Bad AI (as mentioned) can make killing things harder.  Superpowers fix that (kinda).
2. If the author invested enough time into the game to be modding it, there's a good bet their main PC isn't 5th level.  They may be making a follower to be as cool as their PC currently is.  There's no definition for "average PC level to make something for".
3. Considering the level, recognize that unless a follower framework (not Bethesda's) is managing things, followers don't really level up much.  Their stats may (or may not) improve, but they typically don't get the same advancement mechanics as the player.  This means if you are making a follower who is intended to be useful for the long haul, they need to have an edge right out of the gate.  Again, super-powers.
4. Personally, I find it fun sometimes to play as a support character.  If every follower goes down in the blink of an eye though, that's not as fun.  More powerful followers help with that style of play.
5. You mentioned summoning a flame atronach being an issue.  That's an Apprentice level spell.  It should be available to anyone who could even jokingly call themselves a mage/conjurer.  Storm atronach?  Okay, thats a different thing entirely.  Flame Thrall?  Big upgrade.  But a fire atronach?  Nah, not a big thing.  (Consequently, I would never recommend making followers that summon things blindly.  Actors being shifted into high AI is a common cause of crashes and the real reason most follower frameworks only allow five or so followers.  Technically, there's nothing to prevent you leading an army of conjurers into battle, so long as you don't mind almost instant CTD when they all try to summon something.  Parts of the engine can handle it... other parts can't).
6. A lot of people make followers out of their PCs after an engrossing playthrough.  They will want to emphasize the abilities their PC used the most, and it would seem reasonable to grant them some "earned" abilities.
7. Some folks find playthroughs as a duo of capable adventurers to be fun.  That would require a "sidekick" who is strong enough to be able to save the PC from time to time.  Again, no way to know what level this follower is being added to the game as.  Very different thing from level 10 to level 80.
8. Personally, I unscaled my game a long time ago.  Sometimes the "random dragon spawn" is a Nether Dragon, and my team of hunters is only around level 15.  On that day, we run and hope for the best.  Like an army of low-level ninjas, we disappear and regroup at basecamp to discuss why that went so poorly.  More capable followers would make that less of an issue, but then they'll slaughter Blood Dragons and the like in seconds.  Levelled scaling sucks at both ends.

[FauxFurry]

What kinds of followers are you using? Neither Inigo, Lucien Flavius, Auri, Recorder nor Vilja have any such special powers. Lucien and Vilja in particular do not have much of anything until they are trained by the Dragonborn or gain some combat experience. 

[Fiend71]

1 hour ago, Seijin8 said:

unless a follower framework (not Bethesda's) is managing things, followers don't really level up much.

Yeah, I use Nether's (sp) follower framework.  There again - if you assign your two-hander/heavy as a tank, they automatically get a taunt.  I do find a follower framework more than handy though.  If for nothing else but, like you said, to keep levelling correct.

That does seem cool, but also seems to cause damage.  Not much - I'm thinking of the stupid lone wolf that decides attacking a group of four, plus a dog or two is a good plan.  Flattened in seconds...lol

1 hour ago, Seijin8 said:

You mentioned summoning a flame atronach being an issue.

Yes I did say that, didn't I?  It wasn't really a flame atronoch in particular, but at lvl 1, it's still a bit much, IMO. I used a summon storm atronoch scroll when trying to defeat the stupid gargoyles in Volkihar.  After like five deaths.    I had one follower that summoned a spriggan at lvl 1.  Too much for me.

 

It's not letting me quote anymore, but I do and have done the "duo" thing.  Still - an equal though...not a god...lol  Back to levelling...

 

Agreed. The AI in TESV is atrocious.  

Thank you for your input. It's put this into perspective for me, and made me not think every mod author was some fapping 12yr old...lol

 

I do get it.

[Fiend71]

17 minutes ago, FauxFurry said:

What kinds of followers are you using? Neither Inigo, Lucien Flavius, Auri, Recorder nor Vilja have any such special powers. Lucien and Vilja in particular do not have much of anything until they are trained by the Dragonborn or gain some combat experience. 

Those are great ones.  Unfortunately the framework I use doesn't play nice with them all the time, so I get less popular ones.  

 

Inigo is fantastic.  As is Recorder, and M'rissi (I built a PC {got the omhes-rath race just for it} out of her).  They "break" if you try to treat them like other followers though.

 

Unless, again, I'm missing something...

[27X]

1 hour ago, FauxFurry said:

What kinds of followers are you using? Neither Inigo, Lucien Flavius, Auri, Recorder nor Vilja have any such special powers. Lucien and Vilja in particular do not have much of anything until they are trained by the Dragonborn or gain some combat experience. 

 

You'll find followers of the "akavir" variety  tend to have absurd powers powered by equally absurd front mounted mana batteries. The tamest example of this is Neisa whose block literally engrades 98% DR against ANY attack, physical or otherwise, and auto counters with a "spell" that does 2K damage in return every time no matter what. 2k doesn't sound like much until you gander through xedit and it does 2K directly to unscaled health and ignores ANY protection or mitigation.

 

Not to be outdone chinese modders have transcended above and beyond such childish notions and have princesses that cast cell wide lightning storms or my two personal favorites, the Bald Chicken Final Judging Grandfather Heavenly Dragon, a ethereal "dragon" that comes out of one particular follower's vulva and does instant death to anything in 100 meters, and another follower with the Sacred Sword of All Scrolls, which is a DAZ sword that casts every elyssees' sword spell that's been made public every swing.

 

Good times.

[Distortedrealms]

Well I have an idea for you that you may want to consider as opposed to dissecting the followers in the CK/Xedit trying to remove elements. I also horde many of the followers from across the pond but I don't actually put them directly in my game as a mod. I know that sounds strange but I use an unsung hero of beautifying Skyrim in the form of an old Tes5edit script found on nexus called Visual transfer Tool and I simply transfer everything about the followers appearance to another NPC. Be it a vanilla NPC for use with Amorous adventures/similar mods, or I use very simple vanilla follower packs with basic stats and just transfer the OP followers looks on to those generic followers.

 

Word of warning If you do use it, because it is a god send for making skyrim NPCs actually beautiful, but going in blinf can result in huge headaches. I suggest you read the comment section on the mod page extensively to see what issues people have had and how to avoid them because it was made with an older version of Tes5edit and the author has checked out long ago. It can be used with newer versions, but there are important steps to use that the older directions don't cover and can actually bork saves, or even the game itself. Some kind souls have posted in the past how to use the program safely with newer versions so make sure to follow those steps.

[woodsman30]

5 hours ago, Fiend71 said:

Problem is that, a lot of times the mod author has added some insanely over-powered shout, or something that ruins it for me.  

TES5edit use it to change them problem solved... don't know how to use TES5edit youtube it a shit ton of videos on it. 

[KoolHndLuke]

39 minutes ago, woodsman30 said:

TES5edit use it to change them problem solved... don't know how to use TES5edit youtube it a shit ton of videos on it.

And once you edit one npc, you will want to edit them all. Fun though.... Only thing I would recommend is saving your changes into a separate .esp so if something happens and you have to reinstall, your changes aren't lost (telling myself as much as anyone).

[FauxFurry]

4 hours ago, 27X said:

 

You'll find followers of the "akavir" variety  tend to have absurd powers powered by equally absurd front mounted mana batteries. The tamest example of this is Neisa whose block literally engrades 98% DR against ANY attack, physical or otherwise, and auto counters with a "spell" that does 2K damage in return every time no matter what. 2k doesn't sound like much until you gander through xedit and it does 2K directly to unscaled health and ignores ANY protection or mitigation.

 

Not to be outdone chinese modders have transcended above and beyond such childish notions and have princesses that cast cell wide lightning storms or my two personal favorites, the Bald Chicken Final Judging Grandfather Heavenly Dragon, a ethereal "dragon" that comes out of one particular follower's vulva and does instant death to anything in 100 meters, and another follower with the Sacred Sword of All Scrolls, which is a DAZ sword that casts every elyssees' sword spell that's been made public every swing.

 

Good times.

I am almost tempted to give one of those followers a try just to see how absurd it can get. Maybe they would make the perfect guard dogs for Hearthfire homes? Then again, maybe they would end up killing the family that they are supposed to be protecting as collateral damage. 

[donttouchmethere]

In combination with various devious Mods, high lvl (>75) and various mods that add stronger hostiles/boss fights I need all the firepower I can get ?

[woodsman30]

3 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

And once you edit one npc, you will want to edit them all. Fun though.... Only thing I would recommend is saving your changes into a separate .esp so if something happens and you have to reinstall, your changes aren't lost (telling myself as much as anyone).

Always a good idea to back up or take a snapshot before changes.... I forgot to add for OP that not all changes take effect immediately some changes require a new game/start as Skyrim uses save data from the first time you met a NPC/Follower and will use it for that game save. 

[Grey Cloud]

9 hours ago, Fiend71 said:

I do realize it's not all about my playthrough, but did think an actual mod author or two might tell me why.  And clearly so.

Would you expect them to explain why they, say, made a follower with stupidly large breasts or made her an orc instead of an elf? The author makes the mod they want for their reasons. You either ignore it or as @Seijin8 said, you edit them to suit your preferences.

[Heroine HoneyCrotch]

10 hours ago, Fiend71 said:

, but at lvl 1

Talk about an immersion breaker!   Who would even follow your lvl 1 scrub to bleakfalls?

 

 

The answer to the question as to why some followers are overpowered cleary has to be

 

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/86630?tab=files  

[donttouchmethere]

2 minutes ago, Heroine HoneyCrotch said:

Talk about an immersion breaker!   Who would even follow your lvl 1 scrub to bleakfalls?

 

 

The answer to the question as to why some followers are overpowered cleary has to be

 

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/86630?tab=files  

Those Draugr are like mini ebony warriors ?

[Fiend71]

1 hour ago, Heroine HoneyCrotch said:

Talk about an immersion breaker!   Who would even follow your lvl 1 scrub to bleakfalls?

 

 

The answer to the question as to why some followers are overpowered cleary has to be

 

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/86630?tab=files  

HA!  Right?  Certainly not a supremely powerful other level one sword & board, with a wicked powerful shout. 

 

Yes, the ones I'm thinking of are from the nexus - not here.  I do either edit it away, or just not bother with the follower.
After seeing it so often though, and not really getting why, I figured I'd pose the question on a forum full of excellent mod authors -'cuz where else?

 

I don't frequent the nexus forum, so just asked here.  

 

Maybe you do want a famously endowed orc, but when she also can summon Durnevir at the start of the game...lol

It'd be good if they could obtain that power later in the game maybe, but starting out is a bit much for me. So I do ignore a lot, and edit out a lot.  It's unfortunate though.

 

Honestly, please don't see this as dissing mod authors.  I have huge respect for that talent.  A talent which I do not share in any way. A talent I benefit enormously from too.

Kudos.

Just wondered.

[woodsman30]

2 hours ago, Heroine HoneyCrotch said:

Who would even follow your lvl 1 scrub to bleakfalls?

Faendal or Sven would they are great cannon fodder.

[nilead]

 Reason is simple - Skyrim follower system sucks. Skyrim magic also sucks.

Two "sucks" dont cancel out in this case, they produce an unholy entity called "Megasuck".  And while there are total overhauls that fix magic quite well, they do so for PC.

Perks power up your spells, either general, or with specific keywords. And here is a problem - you cant add perks to NPC in game. There is corresponding command, but it does nothing. Spell magnitude variable, that is usually used to power up spells doesnt work for NPCs either. For enemies - well, you can spawn a different leveled variation of "NPC caster",  that will have different perks, working around this limitation. Or multiply damage done by them on the recieving end, by the player.

 But follower has to be the NPC, with the same ID.

 So caster followers dont have any progression or scaling. And you cant really give them any. So people tweak magnitude of follower abilities to fit their current build, and current level. Only way to circumvent this flaw is by changing spell kit for NPC. That can actually be done in game, and i believe Serana (the only follower Bethesda actually tried to do something with) uses exactly that approach.

 And even this crutch needs more crutches, because there is approximately 1.7 trillion gameplay and magic overhauls, not to mention different combinations of those. So, even assuming that there is a hypotetical "Illia progression VIP deluxe" mod, wich replaces her spells with more powerfull once every N levels automaticly, it can be balanced for 1 specific build, and will be way off for every other one.

 To put it simply, Skyrims base system are so trash that creating a balanced follower for it is painfully difficult even for vanilla. For modded - it would take monumental effort.

[Psalam]

18 minutes ago, nilead said:

 Reason is simple - Skyrim follower system sucks. Skyrim magic also sucks.

Two "sucks" dont cancel out in this case, they produce an unholy entity called "Megasuck".  And while there are total overhauls that fix magic quite well, they do so for PC.

Perks power up your spells, either general, or with specific keywords. And here is a problem - you cant add perks to NPC in game. There is corresponding command, but it does nothing. Spell magnitude variable, that is usually used to power up spells doesnt work for NPCs either. For enemies - well, you can spawn a different leveled variation of "NPC caster",  that will have different perks, working around this limitation. Or multiply damage done by them on the recieving end, by the player.

 But follower has to be the NPC, with the same ID.

 So caster followers dont have any progression or scaling. And you cant really give them any. So people tweak magnitude of follower abilities to fit their current build, and current level. Only way to circumvent this flaw is by changing spell kit for NPC. That can actually be done in game, and i believe Serana (the only follower Bethesda actually tried to do something with) uses exactly that approach.

 And even this crutch needs more crutches, because there is approximately 1.7 trillion gameplay and magic overhauls, not to mention different combinations of those. So, even assuming that there is a hypotetical "Illia progression VIP deluxe" mod, wich replaces her spells with more powerfull once every N levels automaticly, it can be balanced for 1 specific build, and will be way off for every other one.

 To put it simply, Skyrims base system are so trash that creating a balanced follower for it is painfully difficult even for vanilla. For modded - it would take monumental effort.

While I am happy to whine and moan about Bugthesda, the problem the OP presents is one that the follower mod authors created. As the author of follower mods I am well aware of how to make them overpowered (increase their leveling. perks and equipment) and how to keep them underpowered (the opposite). I like my followers essential (I made mine so although you can console command that off at any time) and leveled with the player. As a general rule, my followers can keep you alive while you're struggling to get started in the game. 

 

The biggest issue I have with Bugthesda's follower mechanic is the tendency of followers to step between me and my opponent. Other NPCs will do this too. They have no sense of self-preservation whatsoever and I wind up with dead NPCs all the time.

[nilead]

13 minutes ago, Psalam said:

While I am happy to whine and moan about Bugthesda, the problem the OP presents is one that the follower mod authors created

Im sorry but, while its convenient to say "it can be done", at what point does one simply say "nope, thats just absurd"?

A simple exercise

- 1st - follower has to be a mage (lore reasons/whatever). 

- 2nd - it has to have progression, and the rate of progression has to be the same as PC.

- 3rd - it has to to work with vanilla, as well as with wildly different overhauls.

 Inability to add perks dynamicly is what makes this task a problem. Existing solutions to skyrim magic system only apply to PC and cant be used.

So followers are as standard: either fighters, who can have at least some progression, heal  and buff PC, highjacking PC progression or just eye candies with no practical use.

Or, as OP stated, they are stupidly overpowered because they are balanced for specific and obscure 700 mod build, in wich they accompany a level 114 PC.

 And yeah, i can imagine a way to make a balanced caster follower.

 Pick NPC, give it a starter spell kit, create a list of spells added at 25/50/75/100 (or above, if unlocker is used)  generate, say. a 100 variations of each spell up to, idk, x20 base magnitude, attach a script that replaces a spell variation on specific skill levels, run it, idk, on level up?  Than add MCM menu that would allow to choose how much skill change is needed to make a step in magnitude, scaling from extreme 1 step per 1 skill to 1 per 100 skill.

 So, after learning how to script, make MCMs, creating a custom script specificly to generate spell variations with creation kit (no way anyone goes doing that manually), stealing and deconstructing scripts from something like NFF for adding those spells dynamicly in game we will have a grand total of 1 balanced, scaling caster NPC follower, that will work with most non-extreme buillds.

 If you know an easier way - do tell. Because when i look at the process i came up with - i see why people just slap neccecery magnitude straight in and dont bother.

[Psalam]

3 minutes ago, nilead said:

Im sorry but, while its convenient to say "it can be done", at what point does one simply say "nope, thats just absurd"?

A simple exercise

- 1st - follower has to be a mage (lore reasons/whatever). 

- 2nd - it has to have progression, and the rate of progression has to be the same as PC.

- 3rd - it has to to work with vanilla, as well as with wildly different overhauls.

 Inability to add perks dynamicly is what makes this task a problem. Existing solutions to skyrim magic system only apply to PC and cant be used.

So followers are as standard: either fighters, who can have at least some progression, heal  and buff PC, highjacking PC progression or just eye candies with no practical use.

Or, as OP stated, they are stupidly overpowered because they are balanced for specific and obscure 700 mod build, in wich they accompany a level 114 PC.

 And yeah, i can imagine a way to make a balanced caster follower.

 Pick NPC, give it a starter spell kit, create a list of spells added at 25/50/75/100 (or above, if unlocker is used)  generate, say. a 100 variations of each spell up to, idk, x20 base magnitude, attach a script that replaces a spell variation on specific skill levels, run it, idk, on level up?  Than add MCM menu that would allow to choose how much skill change is needed to make a step in magnitude, scaling from extreme 1 step per 1 skill to 1 per 100 skill.

 So, after learning how to script, make MCMs, creating a custom script specificly to generate spell variations with creation kit (no way anyone goes doing that manually), stealing and deconstructing scripts from something like NFF for adding those spells dynamicly in game we will have a grand total of 1 balanced, scaling caster NPC follower, that will work with most non-extreme buillds.

 If you know an easier way - do tell. Because when i look at the process i came up with - i see why people just slap neccecery magnitude straight in and dont bother.

While I've done it in every mod I've authored, I don't like scripting solutions. They tend to be "heavy" at the user end often leading to undesired/undesirable consequences. My Cynthia follower was a compromise. First, she's a spellsword (not all mage, not all fighter). Second, she has relatively "low level" perks which does make her a bit overpowered early on (see what I said about that in my last post) but as the Dragonborn gains perks and shouts (and she doesn't) I think she strikes a good balance. Finally, she does level up with the player. I thought long and hard about keeping her level one or two behind the player but ultimately, after playtesting her, I thought her going up with the PC worked best. Finally, you can make a big difference with your follower with equipment. I intentionally began Cynthia with no equipment (or clothes or other inventory). That's not just because I'm a pervert but it also means that the AI's annoying habit of placing equipment back onto a player that I have chosen to strip for whatever reason (balance included) does not happen.

[Fiend71]

2 hours ago, nilead said:

 Reason is simple - Skyrim follower system sucks. Skyrim magic also sucks.

Two "sucks" dont cancel out in this case, they produce an unholy entity called "Megasuck".  And while there are total overhauls that fix magic quite well, they do so for PC.

Perks power up your spells, either general, or with specific keywords. And here is a problem - you cant add perks to NPC in game. There is corresponding command, but it does nothing. Spell magnitude variable, that is usually used to power up spells doesnt work for NPCs either. For enemies - well, you can spawn a different leveled variation of "NPC caster",  that will have different perks, working around this limitation. Or multiply damage done by them on the recieving end, by the player.

 But follower has to be the NPC, with the same ID.

 So caster followers dont have any progression or scaling. And you cant really give them any. So people tweak magnitude of follower abilities to fit their current build, and current level. Only way to circumvent this flaw is by changing spell kit for NPC. That can actually be done in game, and i believe Serana (the only follower Bethesda actually tried to do something with) uses exactly that approach.

 And even this crutch needs more crutches, because there is approximately 1.7 trillion gameplay and magic overhauls, not to mention different combinations of those. So, even assuming that there is a hypotetical "Illia progression VIP deluxe" mod, wich replaces her spells with more powerfull once every N levels automaticly, it can be balanced for 1 specific build, and will be way off for every other one.

 To put it simply, Skyrims base system are so trash that creating a balanced follower for it is painfully difficult even for vanilla. For modded - it would take monumental effort.

Yes, Bethseda completely borked magic for this iteration (to the point of me not making a mage playthrough) - and I can't imagine that fighting against the absolutely ignorant A.I. is fun either (how many times have I pegged Lydia in the back of the head with an arrow?  "Stupid cow!  What the absolute hell?!")

 

I suppose I was of the mind of "why even go there?" though.  
 

Whatever - consider me edumacted...lol

 

Thank you all.

[nilead]

28 minutes ago, Psalam said:

My Cynthia follower was a compromise.

 I can respect the fact that you have given it a thought and tried to come up with a solution.

But you didnt. You worked around the issue of NPC scaling by using gear progression, wich makes fighter-followers semi usefull. Same as Serana, Sofia and many other good, likeable followers. Same spellblade approach, same issue of becoming useless and actively gimiping themselves by using magic (for my builds, they usually become obsolete by level 25).

Same reasoning - early game balance takes priority. Authors of OP oneshot waifu mods didnt solve the problem either, they just took an opposite approach, lategame took priority.

 Question was - why OP followers are made.? Reason is the same as why Cynthia is baggage by level 50 - Skyrim does no support NPC progression, and actually solving this issue is a mind numbingly difficult task.