Sim Spam in Downloads

[kwanzaabot]

Honestly, the downloads section is downright unusable nowadays.

 

It's gotten completely out of control.

 

I see Sims have been separated from regular downloads--a good start point, but you're still shit out of luck if you wanna download a Sim.

[Neodarkside]

The "Most Recent updates" on the front page is still getting spammed and its the same 6 files being updated every hour to get bumped back to the front page. So in all honesty the Updated files part on the main page is redundant as its always going to be them. I'm happy admins have at least listened to us, its progress at least. I just wish they'd do something about the actual content in these files they've uploaded, still taking advantage of other peoples work.

[Simsy McSimsface]

3 hours ago, Neodarkside said:

The "Most Recent updates" on the front page is still getting spammed and its the same 6 files being updated every hour to get bumped back to the front page. So in all honesty the Updated files part on the main page is redundant as its always going to be them.

 

Some things never change... on top of that the new separate system is already being gamed by SugarB***_Sims; fake update bumping two of her mods posts.
It's actually funny to go through her Changelog, 23 "updates" since the original publish date, all 23 are the exact same 49.76MB zip file. ? Shameless.

[ChinaTam]

55 minutes ago, thecobb said:

 

Some things never change... on top of that the new separate system is already being gamed by SugarB***_Sims; fake update bumping two of her mods posts.
It's actually funny to go through her Changelog, 23 "updates" since the original publish date, all 23 are the exact same 49.76MB zip file. ? Shameless.

 

This fake "updating" does need to be looked at, moving the spammers is not really a long term solution. I suspect they are using Auto update scripts to bump posts.

[Qalefir]

I wonder how this toxicity came to be among some sims creators. I hope that the problem will not spread to the mod section...

But I agree, we need a long term and global solution for this kind of behaviour.

[ChinaTam]

30 minutes ago, RDA said:

I wonder how this toxicity came to be among some sims creators. I hope that the problem will not spread to the mod section...

But I agree, we need a long term and global solution for this kind of behaviour.

 

The toxicity has and will probably spread. Just looked at the Mod section for example and sexybeast***** posted no update to careers but wanted to tell us about his new mod out tomorrow, early access on Patreon, why, who cares ?

 

I would warn... suspend ..... then ban, the word would soon get about

[Neodarkside]

If the content behind Patreon doesn't contain other peoples work, then I honestly don't have a problem with it. I've subbed to a few animation creators before to get animations and show support. Anyone who puts someone elses work behind a paywall and profits from it, AND spam bumps their post to get more attention needs a spiked Banstick shoved up their arse ASAP. Its disgusting behavior.

[Simsy McSimsface]

2 hours ago, ChinaTam said:

Just looked at the Mod section for example and sexybeast***** posted no update to careers but wanted to tell us about his new mod out tomorrow, early access on Patreon, why, who cares ?

Yeah I love these kind of updates too. My other favorites are: "Sorry guys for the lack of updates" update, and the always classic daily "Wow, thanks for 64917 downloads!" updates. Like, who cares bitch, I have eyes, I can see the download numbers. 

 

BTW, here's another serial offender:

SecretC**** - Updates her posts religiously 3-4 times a day, while only posting actual new content maybe once a week.

 

2 hours ago, RDA said:

I wonder how this toxicity came to be among some sims creators. I hope that the problem will not spread to the mod section...

...it will. It's inevitable. Some people are just simply shameless, and will not stop until they're forced to. 

 

1 hour ago, Neodarkside said:

I've subbed to a few animation creators before to get animations and show support. Anyone who puts someone elses work behind a paywall and profits from it, AND spam bumps their post to get more attention needs a spiked Banstick shoved up their arse ASAP. Its disgusting behavior.

Yeah, same here. I'm subbed to Turbo, Mexi and some animators, as I actually think that their mods and original content makes my gaming experience better, and they should be rewarded for that. But this "hey guise, I made this dime a dozen looking bitch and dressed her up with clothes I found on the internet, now gimme moneyz" bullshit always irked me.

[ChinaTam]

2 hours ago, Neodarkside said:

If the content behind Patreon doesn't contain other peoples work, then I honestly don't have a problem with it.

 

But my point is, there is no update, so it was an "updated" post in the downloads which only says "I'm making a new mod and it's out tomorrow for patreons" ? nothing new at the moment and breaking site rules by advertising it because its behind a paywall. Why post an update in the download section... start a post in the the discussion forums if you really need to let us know.

 

1 hour ago, Spam Police said:

 

BTW, here's another serial offender:

SecretC**** - Updates her posts religiously 3-4 times a day, while only posting actual new content maybe once a week.

 

 

90% of the usernames on the front page of the new "Sims 4 - sims" section are serial offenders.

[Ashal]

Trying to actually police fake updates would be difficult.

 

Would changing the default sort order of the download pages to recently added instead of recently updated be an acceptable compromise? This would eliminate bumping, but I know it's not exactly an ideal solution.

 

 

[TastyTexture]

@Ashal If you could only update your thread by really adding a new file for download, it would be nice. Just text updates shouldn't be count as "new update" and bump your thread to the top. Your thread can go to top if you add a new file for download. I don't know if this is something doable.

 

Some people are abusing the update button really hard by text change. And if someone really upload a new sim, it doesn't matter at all. Because it goes to bottom real quick. Fake updates kills the actual sim uploads. In the past, I updated my thread a couple of times in a day because other people are hitting hard that "update" button and keeping their threads at the top all the time- even though their latest file upload is 20 days old. Actually, days don't matter. People do not hesitate to update it no matter what. I stopped trying to make my post seen because even if I update mine, after a min, they update theirs. So I stopped updating. That's what should be done by everyone.

[DiscoverySims]

Hello everyone after read all the thread I want to share some thoughts about this situation

I coulnd't agree more with the Category separation, this should be a good way to solve temporary this problem, it's a shame because of this people all the sims creators are dragged away.

As @TastyTexture I got annoyed of this kind of people who just keep its files on the top for more business, at the start well you can tolerate it, but now it's just trash, there is no community, there is just some spammers with no consideration for other creators and for the community itself.

Yes I update my threads as well, but just one or two times per week (maybe less) you can check it. And when I do, I offered you new content for sure here or in Patreon, because yes maybe for some people the Sims creators are just scammers, thiefs or anything worst. But I can assure you that in my work (at least I talk for myself) are passion, time and effort. It's not only place files together. Patreon is where I can get some bucks for this effort and I explain in my threads why I work with the early access model.

 

If I place the CC in the downloads is because I can't give you 50 links with adflys just for a single sim, no one will download it, I know it's not the best way but it's the only thing I can do (I'm open to suggestions) and I try to give credits to all the CC creators.

Honestly, I liked more the forum when I started my project, it was more about getting excited with the new creators content than "let's see how many times I can update my post before the thread gets shitty". I agree with the updating/editing restriction for files, but the trouble may stills in the way of spamming empty uptades.

Sorry for the long text but I need to write it, I'm not here to fight about nothing. but I got tired about this kind of people too.

[Simsy McSimsface]

3 hours ago, Ashal said:

Would changing the default sort order of the download pages to recently added instead of recently updated be an acceptable compromise? This would eliminate bumping

I personally am against that, as this would disproportionally punish the updates of old established mods/animators - many of whom have post dating back from years ago - and who actually play by the rules. Banishing them to page 49832 of the default sorting would be unfair. And on top of that, I'm pretty sure the "bumpers" would find new ways to beat the system anyways.

Sadly, if the forum engine is not prepared to handle text changes as "non updates", then there's no real solution to this problem at the moment apart from naming and shaming. Which I admit is not ideal.
Only hands-on policing - paired with warnings/suspensions - could really stop this, but I absolutely understand that LL's tiny mod team can't be expected to handle this.

 

55 minutes ago, DiscoverySims said:

Yes I update my threads as well, ... And when I do, I offered you new content for sure here or in Patreon

There's nothing wrong with letting people know of your new Patreon content, where it belongs... IN A FORUM POST. I've seen many modders/animators doing that, it's totally fine. 
Like Oops said it in a previous post:

On 5/24/2021 at 9:59 AM, Oops19 said:

If there's something to be fixed everyone can update at any time. This has never been an issue. Even 10 updates within one hour do no harm.

But one should finish editing then (virtually lock post "forever") and concentrate on something else.

 

[Neodarkside]

4 hours ago, Ashal said:

Trying to actually police fake updates would be difficult.

 

Would changing the default sort order of the download pages to recently added instead of recently updated be an acceptable compromise? This would eliminate bumping, but I know it's not exactly an ideal solution.

 

 

 

Yes/no maybe? All one would need to do is watch the front page and watch the Recently Updated box at the bottom. Its the same 6 repeatedly, everyone else who does update a legit file gets shoved off it within an hour. I've seen the same ones fight over that box space for a day.

 

53 minutes ago, Spam Police said:

I personally am against that, as this would disproportionally punish the updates of old established mods/animators - many of whom have post dating back from years ago - and who actually play by the rules. Banishing them to page 49832 of the default sorting would be unfair. And on top of that, I'm pretty sure the "bumpers" would find new ways to beat the system anyways.

Sadly, if the forum engine is not prepared to handle text changes as "non updates", then there's no real solution to this problem at the moment apart from naming and shaming. Which I admit is not ideal.
Only hands-on policing - paired with warnings/suspensions - could really stop this, but I absolutely understand that LL's tiny mod team can't be expected to handle this.

 

There's nothing wrong with letting people know of your new Patreon content, where it belongs... IN A FORUM POST. I've seen many modders/animators doing that, it's totally fine.

 

 

I am against it as well for the very same reason, and the work around for these spammers is throw together a brand new Sim in 10 minutes or go into them, add a new outfit and repost. I think the hands on method would be the only way, the ones who abuse it are fairly well known, as I said above, one just needs to watch that Updated Recently box for a few hours to see or looking at their change log. An issued Warning that repeat abuse will result in removal of the content or suspended account could help, but it could also make it worse.

 

My biggest problem above the whole spam situation is that these people are profiting off other peoples works by paywalling content behind Patreon. Its the number 1 reason most content creators give up and quit. This could push some of these people to speed up the process of making more Sims to lock behind paywall and add more and more peoples content being used as they need to make different outfits and Sims to add to their "latest update" if they are now required to actually update.

 

I hate saying it, but its in the rules of Loverslabs, Below is the line from Ashal's Rules topic post. While that may help the solution, it hurts the ones who I WOULD Support, such as the Animation creators, you can't just straight up remove one for rules violation and not touch the others for technically the same, the only difference is with the Animators is that they are the ones who created those animations themselves. The Simmers just went into the game, took other peoples content and arranged it nice and prettily, exported and placed onto Patreon.

 

"We are a free and open community; members requiring payment for mods, support, or putting anything behind a paywall will be removed without warning. Donation buttons/links to support an author is fine, so long as nothing is promised, given, or rewarded other than a sense of satisfaction for supporting an author or owner of content.  "

 

[ihavecometothis]

On 5/23/2021 at 1:01 AM, Abandoner said:

So can I update the format of my page and feel less guilty about it now? I'd love for the next step to be text edits don't count, then I can make as many mistakes as I like.

But your sims are amazing!!! Everyone should have a chance to see them on page 1! :) 

[Abandoner]

This whole situation is starting to bring me down a bit. I have payed more attention to it since I've become aware and you're right, it is kind of insane how much they "update".

 

One thing I can't figure out though is how it is deemed a worthwhile tactic, and now that it's all in its own section, it seems beyond silly to me. Shouldn't the onus be on the users to go beyond the first page? These people must have zero faith in them.

 

Then again, has the pandemic done this? I have no idea what the situation was like 2 years ago.

 

@ihavecometothis That's very kind of you, thank you!

[wallawalla]

16 minutes ago, Abandoner said:

Then again, has the pandemic done this? I have no idea what the situation was like 2 years ago.

 

 

It happened before, but I noticed the up tick during the pandemic. It seems to be more egregious now more than ever.

[Simsy McSimsface]

1 hour ago, Neodarkside said:

I hate saying it, but its in the rules of Loverslabs, Below is the line from Ashal's Rules topic post. While that may help the solution, it hurts the ones who I WOULD Support, such as the Animation creators, you can't just straight up remove one for rules violation and not touch the others for technically the same, the only difference is with the Animators is that they are the ones who created those animations themselves. The Simmers just went into the game, took other peoples content and arranged it nice and prettily, exported and placed onto Patreon.

"We are a free and open community; members requiring payment for mods, support, or putting anything behind a paywall will be removed without warning. Donation buttons/links to support an author is fine, so long as nothing is promised, given, or rewarded other than a sense of satisfaction for supporting an author or owner of content.  "

Those rules are from a more innocent times and likely needs some amending to allow for early access form of Patreon, otherwise Turbo and 99% of the animators would need to be kicked out - which would be ridiculous, as they drive a SIGNIFICANT amount of traffic to the site. If they're forced to leave, they'd just take their business elsewhere.
So while I sympathize with your "romantic" point of view, it's not feasible nor practical really. And anyways, as I said I have no actual problem with Patreon (if it's for early access - like WW), I only have a problem with SPAM!

The "No Exclusive Paywalling" part is already enforced actually; I remember reporting a new CAS sim "upload" a couple of days ago that was simply a couple of screenshots accompanied with a "come to my Patreon and gimme moneyz to get it", and it was deleted swiftly by the mods. So I'd say, they do already enforce the rule to a reasonable extent.

[ChinaTam]

7 hours ago, Ashal said:

Trying to actually police fake updates would be difficult.

 

Would changing the default sort order of the download pages to recently added instead of recently updated be an acceptable compromise? This would eliminate bumping, but I know it's not exactly an ideal solution.

 

 

 

Thanks for taking the time @Ashal to look at this, it's a huge frustration for all of us. I would prefer the recently updated sort to stay, it's what actually draws us back to see the latest greatest update to a MOD. Even if you changed it I think the page would then be spammed with single "All new version 99999.10b" of a post and fill up server space even quicker.

 

The best solution is policing and behavior changing. I have a list of serial offenders, they are fully aware as I've contacted them offering a hand of friendship explaining I have no problem with them posting legit updates but they simply continue/ignore. It's as though they are naughty school kids ? 

 

Is it possible for moderators to issue warnings other than the automated ones ?

Is it possible for moderators to issue time suspensions, say 1 day then 5 days then weeks ?

 

The last thing I want is to see is content providers banned in all honesty. Like I say it's the behavior of the few that need to change. If you want I will volunteer to moderate the download section of the sims 4 ?

 

 

 

 

[Ashal]

Thanks for the feedback all. Know that I am looking into solving this as best I can.

 

The main problem with policing it as I see it is that we really have no way of knowing how often something has been "updated". We get a last updated timestamp and that's it, no way of knowing when the last update before that one was. So we would have to rely solely on users reporting bump abuse.

 

I could look into editing the forum software to a degree to sort of hack in a solution that stops text edits from being counted as an update, but directly editing the software is a real hassle and creates problems further down the line whenever the software needs to be updated.

 

----

 

As for paywalling stuff. We do internally have a set of moderation rules when it comes to Patreon content, however we've never really codified it in a public way.  Exclusive content has generally been allowed, so long as it is non-consequential to the product as a whole (such as providing a cheat menu in a game to patrons for example) Paywalled sims and animations kind of straddle that line if I'm being honest. 

 

Custom uploaded sims has actually always been a real sore spot for us.  In other games on LoversLab we generally demand mods properly credit and ask permission for any assets they use that aren't theirs, but the majority of custom sims seem to be 90% other peoples assets that frequently go uncredited. We've mostly turned a blind eye to this under the assumption that "this is just the way the sims modding community has usually operated" and trying to enforce our usual rules on it would largely just stifle the community. But I'm curious what people actually think about that.

[Neodarkside]

2 hours ago, Spam Police said:

So while I sympathize with your "romantic" point of view, it's not feasible nor practical really. And anyways, as I said I have no actual problem with Patreon (if it's for early access - like WW), I only have a problem with SPAM!

The "No Exclusive Paywalling" part is already enforced actually; I remember reporting a new CAS sim "upload" a couple of days ago that was simply a couple of screenshots accompanied with a "come to my Patreon and gimme moneyz to get it", and it was deleted swiftly by the mods. So I'd say, they do already enforce the rule to a reasonable extent.

 

Romantic point of view, no, its Patreons own view as it violates their policy but requires a DMCA of a Copyright infringement to be issued from the creator. It violates the creators wishes of "Do not claim my work as your own, or do not put my work on paysites."  Many have these requests and they are being ignored and these people are profiting off it. been playing Sims since Sims 2 and Ive watched many many good creators just say, "Well.. fuck you all, I'm done" or see good content vanish because they're tired of fighting the thieves. The Spam is annoying as well, it floods the front page and anyone who DID update their files legitimately just got shoved off the page by someone who in my mind, is doing it for money. I've wanted to do my own Sims uploads for awhile now, I focus on the different types of Sims. Aliens, oddities, even the furry mods I've been playing around with, but lately I don't want to as it would be buried quite fast.

 

I have yet to see content removed, a new one sure but some of the long time offenders still have a dozen Sims locked behind a paywall, again all with other peoples works.

 

 

[Khlas]

44 minutes ago, Ashal said:

Custom uploaded sims has actually always been a real sore spot for us.  In other games on LoversLab we generally demand mods properly credit and ask permission for any assets they use that aren't theirs, but the majority of custom sims seem to be 90% other peoples assets that frequently go uncredited. We've mostly turned a blind eye to this under the assumption that "this is just the way the sims modding community has usually operated" and trying to enforce our usual rules on it would largely just stifle the community. But I'm curious what people actually think about that.

 

I think people should credit the creator, at least on a .txt file from their download page or something so they don't need to credit them everytime. They should also add, when it's the case, that their sims use mostly CC from others creators. If they want some respect for their creations, maybe they should start to respect the work of others first.

 

Trying to sell sims using others creators content is just not right to me and a poor execution of the definition of being greedy. If the sims using others CC creators add credit, I'm personally fine with it even if the sim is poorly done or whatever. then It's a matter of choice from patrons, not the creator of the sims himself. 

 

And what @Neodarkside said. Nothing to add.

[Abandoner]

46 minutes ago, Ashal said:

 

Custom uploaded sims has actually always been a real sore spot for us.  In other games on LoversLab we generally demand mods properly credit and ask permission for any assets they use that aren't theirs, but the majority of custom sims seem to be 90% other peoples assets that frequently go uncredited. We've mostly turned a blind eye to this under the assumption that "this is just the way the sims modding community has usually operated" and trying to enforce our usual rules on it would largely just stifle the community. But I'm curious what people actually think about that.

 

 

I've credited the work of LL content creators on my page. Though I admittedly did not ask for permission. In all honesty I didn't want a setback after working hard to get my sims out in the open after having a lot of requests over the last year. But that's no excuse I know.

 

And that's also why I feel pretty damn unlucky that I've picked the worst time to start sharing, as now it seems the house is crumbling down. I share sims to please others and I ask for nothing in return. I have no access to any paid-for content either. I'd really appreciate it if people like me didn't get punished so soon because of this,

[Neodarkside]

1 hour ago, Abandoner said:

 

I've credited the work of LL content creators on my page. Though I admittedly did not ask for permission. In all honesty I didn't want a setback after working hard to get my sims out in the open after having a lot of requests over the last year. But that's no excuse I know.

 

And that's also why I feel pretty damn unlucky that I've picked the worst time to start sharing, as now it seems the house is crumbling down. I share sims to please others and I ask for nothing in return. I have no access to any paid-for content either. I'd really appreciate it if people like me didn't get punished so soon because of this,

 

Sharing a Sim is all fine and good, its when Patreon gets added to the mix is where I have the problem. You also don't seem to be constantly updating to remain at the top of the list or the front page, so I'd say you are fine. Don't let this situation dissuade you from continueing. If you enjoy making Sims to share, by all means.

 

 

1 hour ago, Khlas said:

 

I think people should credit the creator, at least on a .txt file from their download page or something so they don't need to credit them everytime. They should also add, when it's the case, that their sims use mostly CC from others creators. If they want some respect for their creations, maybe they should start to respect the work of others first.

 

Trying to sell sims using others creators content is just not right to me and a poor execution of the definition of being greedy. If the sims using others CC creators add credit, I'm personally fine with it even if the sim is poorly done or whatever. then It's a matter of choice from patrons, not the creator of the sims himself. 

 

And what @Neodarkside said. Nothing to add.

 

Crediting them is a step in the right direction, making sure the creator ALLOWS their content to be shared is another, however the bottom line is they still profit from that creators work and I've yet to see a single one that gives full access to their works and are ok with them being stored on Patreon.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Ashal said:

As for paywalling stuff. We do internally have a set of moderation rules when it comes to Patreon content, however we've never really codified it in a public way.  Exclusive content has generally been allowed, so long as it is non-consequential to the product as a whole (such as providing a cheat menu in a game to patrons for example) Paywalled sims and animations kind of straddle that line if I'm being honest. 

 

Custom uploaded sims has actually always been a real sore spot for us.  In other games on LoversLab we generally demand mods properly credit and ask permission for any assets they use that aren't theirs, but the majority of custom sims seem to be 90% other peoples assets that frequently go uncredited. We've mostly turned a blind eye to this under the assumption that "this is just the way the sims modding community has usually operated" and trying to enforce our usual rules on it would largely just stifle the community. But I'm curious what people actually think about that.

 

We definitely appreciate all the time and effort into looking into this, so thank you.

 

As for the Custom Sims. I honestly don't know how to proceed, every way you go its going to be a gray area. I see a MASSIVE difference between a content creator putting their own works behind Patreon as a limited time thing vs someone creating a Sim in game and exporting it plus all their CC and then putting it behind Patreon. The first is their own work. The second is someone elses. But right there you will automatically have a problem, that Sim creator will argue that they spent time and effort to craft that Sim (personally disbelieve as 75% all look the same to me), and they have the right to claim its theirs. However... the CC they used to craft that Sim is NOT theirs. The other problem is, you cannot see what is actually being stored on Patreon unless you are a patron and then download it. Here I can download a public sim and see everything it has in the download file, which unfortunately 90% of the ones I've personally downloaded contain mod files from Wicked Whims, Basemental Drugs, Nisa's Wicked Perversions, Devious Desires, and many other mods. Also contained Custom Slider mods as well.

 

My solution? Removal of all patreon links for custom sims. LL is for posting of Public Sims only, not to be their advertisment page to make money. Doesn't fix the CC problem however but at least it removes the problem of other peoples CC being used to make money.

 

[Oops19]

If it is possible to require that the change log is used when updating it'd be easy to see why one updated the content (up! - up! - up!).

 

 

It may help if one moderator would look into the download section every 12h, a snapshot of the first page should be sufficient, without looking at the content.
After a few days it should be obvious who want's to be contacted in one way or the other.

 

Afterwards it may help if one moderator would open the first 3-5 links and try to download the advertised sim. She/he may find out that a Patreon account is required.
 

 

The rule "... members requiring payment for mods, support, or putting anything behind a paywall will be removed without warning. ..." may be followed by the members. Due to Corona some may need Patreon as an income and upload there exclusive content. For sure there's no risk to add the Patreon link in the footer. Adding free full-sized ads to the topics may be questionable.