xyzxyz Posted April 30, 2023 Posted April 30, 2023 I use AFT to have 2 followers. I was enslaved by the first (Benor) but the second (Lydia) has no dialogues to become a plaything. Why?
Hex Bolt Posted April 30, 2023 Author Posted April 30, 2023 (edited) 25 minutes ago, xyzxyz said: I use AFT to have 2 followers. I was enslaved by the first (Benor) but the second (Lydia) has no dialogues to become a plaything. Why? Because there's no dialog for that. You select a playmate through the MCM, in a similar manner to picking an auction buyer. By avoiding dialog, the relationship with the playmate is kept vague. A playmate might be another dominant follower, like a Devious Follower; another submissive, like Lola; or something in between. Whatever you imagine that relationship to be, nothing in the mod will spoil that for you. Edited April 30, 2023 by HexBolt8 1
Antiope_Apollonia Posted May 1, 2023 Posted May 1, 2023 (edited) I almost forgot I wanted to pick up on this briefly, as I think it's a good opportunity to shed some more light on the other side of the BDSM spectrum that I—and perhaps @lcewolf (with the very confusing name to tag!)—inhabit in evident contrast to you and others. On 4/28/2023 at 10:58 PM, HexBolt8 said: When clothing is permanently removed, you don't get to experience having it taken away at the owner's whim. I'm completely fine with this. I think this one probably comes back to the fetishisation of humiliation that we've spoken about before. Since I don't get any thrill from that, I don't really feel like I'm missing anything. On 4/28/2023 at 10:58 PM, HexBolt8 said: On 4/28/2023 at 8:43 PM, lcewolf said: Personnally i always change this for 0 but i was wondering why you set it at 50 in the first place? To allow Lola to become ready for nakedness (for reasons discussed just above) and to provide a sense of progression, gradually having harder rules & restrictions. I don't really have a practical suggestion here, but I'd be more likely to feel like that was worth it if there were more of a gradual buildup. If it felt like Mistress were thoughtfully working on gradually helping me to get comfortable with my nakedness in a way that progresses logically, I could get on board with that. For example: No prerequisites. No armour at home; only clothing. "Eye candy" event can play only at home, or maybe in an inn where you've rented a room (with a bit of time allowed to go to the room to strip). Minimum number of "Eye candy" events completed in a row without any violations—at least 3–5, or maybe configurable—plus minimum score. Armour only in the wild; only clothing in public. Naked at home. "Eye candy" can play in semi-public places like shops and other peoples' homes—maybe also caves and such?—but not inns, palaces, or on the street. Minimum further number of "Eye candy" events completed successfully; further minimum score. No armour anywhere; only clothing in the wild or in public. Naked in any dwelling or shop. "Eye Candy" can play in any indoor location. Minimum further number of "Eye candy" events completed successfully; further minimum score. Clothing only outdoors. Naked indoors. "Eye candy" can play anywhere. "Whiterun walk" event becomes available. Minimum further number of "Eye candy" events completed successfully; further minimum score. Naked everywhere always. "Fashion slave" event becomes available. On progressing to each new stage, Mistress would tell Lola what a good girl she's been and how proud she is of her progress, but she still has much to learn, then introduce the new rules. When there are no new rules to introduce, Mistress tells Lola how pleased She is that Lola has learnt to meet her expectations. For whatever ruleset has been most recently applied, if Lola forgets to change out of her armour or take off her clothes within some grace period—maybe 10–20 seconds—Mistress gives a gentle reminder, after which you have another 5–10 seconds before getting punished. For older rulesets, She's less forgiving of scatter-brained slaves. For the final ruleset, no grace period is needed, since there's no longer anything to take off. Probably would be a lot of work to implement, and I'm not saying it'd be worth it. But something along the lines of the above is what would be needed to make it feel worth it to me to delay the introduction of nudity rules. Basically, the idea would be that I want to be a good girl for Mistress and make Her proud, but sometimes it's hard, and I'm thankful for her guidance. A little positive reinforcement along the way goes a long way, too—as you say, any equine trainer or athletic coach knows the carrot works better than the stick. On 4/29/2023 at 4:36 AM, HexBolt8 said: Which is more difficult, to be naked all the time, or to be allowed clothes sometimes, then suddenly have to be naked at your owner's whim? If you have no hope of keeping your dignity, you accept that. But if your ability to wear clothes is taken away whenever it pleases the owner, you experience the loss over and over. It's true for the human player too. If your character is always naked, after a while you become desensitized; it's just normal. For me, this is exactly the point. I'll readily grant that it would be better if that desensitisation came more gradually and if Mistress played more of a role in it, but for me, that's explicitly the goal. I don't want things to be difficult, but I accept that I'll have to do difficult things in order to succeed in being a good pet for my Mistress and making Her proud of me. "Experiencing the loss" isn't a thrill for me, so the more quickly I can learn to stop thinking of it as a loss, the better. Humiliation isn't something for me to revel in; it's something to be endured—and hopefully, ultimately overcome—in service of a greater purpose. If Mistress's training can help me learn to accept it and transcend my natural loss aversion, then that's a beautiful thing that gets to the heart of the relationship between Mistress and slave. When Her rules feel capricious or arbitrary, that makes it harder for me to learn, and that's only frustrating. I have more respect for a Mistress who is skilled at training me to please Her, and the more I respect Mistress, the more pleasure there is to be had in submitting to Her. The other piece of this puzzle for me is that, if I'm allowed to wear clothes, then I have to decide what to wear. Not having to make such decisions is another big part of the joy of submission. Mistress will do the thinking, and I'll just focus on following orders, after all. If, whilst allowed to wear clothes, Mistress could decide how to dress me, that would help, too, but otherwise, wearing nothing is one fewer decision for Lola to have to make. Life is complicated, and it often feels like I'm responsible for too many decisions and choices. A big part of the appeal of BDSM in general is being able to check out of having to decide everything for myself and just letting someone else take care of that for me—even if Her decisions might be difficult for me at first. On 4/29/2023 at 4:36 AM, HexBolt8 said: I'm not telling anyone how to play. ... But I am offering a different perspective, some things to think about. I know there's a whole other side to the spectrum of BDSM who look at these things very differently and find the humiliation and degradation thrilling or arousing, and each to her own, but I just wanted to shed some light on the mentality of the other end of that spectrum. I have no idea what the relative proportions are, but I know from reading erotica that that I must not be alone at this end, as material I like seems to find ample audience. Since it seems like most of the more vocal contributors to this thread are on the other end—nothing wrong with that; whatever tickles y'all's pickles—I just want to make sure that this side is clearly articulated, too. Okay, maybe that wasn't as brief as I'd intended. ? Edited May 1, 2023 by Antiope_Apollonia 5
ThatOneSpiderPhoenix Posted May 1, 2023 Posted May 1, 2023 Having fixed the problems caused by my careless json editing and actually getting to experience Submissive Lola as intended, I have to say, it's been a lot of fun. (it's not my character's fantasized ideal of submission where she eventually becomes a pampered pet who lives in luxury and is treated with respect and dignity for being such a loyal slave, but that actually enhances the experience, I think - as her master is so fond of reminding her, it doesn't prove her obedience if she only obeys commands she already wanted to follow anyway) That being said, I would like to make a small request for a future version - some tweaks to "Time to Relax." Overall, I like the event and the idea behind it. It reminds you that the owner is in control, not you, and that you're only allowed to go off and adventure for as long as the owner allows it. And it also forces you back to towns, where you might be forced to go naked and/or prostitute yourself. However, it is a VERY burdensome event (by design I imagine) with no option to turn it off, only a weight limit configuration. This wouldn't be such an issue for me if not for the fact that hands being bound prevents me from re-equipping items. So I can easily end up in a downward spiral where owner decides I'm carrying too much and it's time to head home, then later tells me to strip when I offer service, but I can't re-equip my gear afterward and make use of weight-reducing perks for equipped armor. So I'm stuck slowly walking naked the rest of the way back to civilization, which is great for humiliation value, I guess, but takes quite a long time. (can't fast travel while overencumbered, can't mount horse while hands are bound) Additionally, with weather survival mods (I personally use Frostfall), this is often a recipe for quickly freezing to death, with little I can do about it. (I guess I could suspend Submissive Lola events, cheat add a restraints key, unbind my hands, re-equip gear, then bind them again and unsuspend, but that's a bit of an unimmersive workaround) So @HexBolt8, if you feel so inclined, I would like to request the ability to interact with and maybe soften Time to Relax restrictions. Maybe have the owner threaten to bind the PC's hands and then actually bind them later if they don't get back to town quickly enough, or maybe give the player the option to ask for their bindings to be temporarily removed, which the owner can grant or deny (and of course, bind them again at a time of their choosing.) Up to you, of course; thanks for reading and considering in any case, and thanks for creating and maintaining such a thoroughly enjoyable mod.
CaptainJ03 Posted May 1, 2023 Posted May 1, 2023 1 hour ago, ThatOneSpiderPhoenix said: That being said, I would like to make a small request for a future version - some tweaks to "Time to Relax." Overall, I like the event and the idea behind it. It reminds you that the owner is in control, not you, and that you're only allowed to go off and adventure for as long as the owner allows it. And it also forces you back to towns, where you might be forced to go naked and/or prostitute yourself. However, it is a VERY burdensome event (by design I imagine) with no option to turn it off, only a weight limit configuration. This wouldn't be such an issue for me if not for the fact that hands being bound prevents me from re-equipping items But as Time to Relax triggers per default at 20% below max, you should be able to fast travel to the next bigger city. If you tend to travel with a heavy load (or using mods that take some of your carrying ability) you might consider the pickpocket perk with extra pockets. Or simply disable Time to Relax. Because the idea behind this is to go to a town right away, kick off your boots and enjoy some lazy time - not dragging a footsore packhorse across all of Tamriel.
Hex Bolt Posted May 1, 2023 Author Posted May 1, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, ThatOneSpiderPhoenix said: [Time to Relax] is a VERY burdensome event (by design I imagine) with no option to turn it off, only a weight limit configuration. This wouldn't be such an issue for me if not for the fact that hands being bound prevents me from re-equipping items. So I can easily end up in a downward spiral where owner decides I'm carrying too much and it's time to head home, then later tells me to strip when I offer service, but I can't re-equip my gear afterward and make use of weight-reducing perks for equipped armor. I can look at possibly blocking stripping while Time to Relax is active. However, SkyUI's outfit hotkeys let you equip armor with the press of a key even with bound hands, so it shouldn't be difficult to get that armor back on. 55 minutes ago, CaptainJ03 said: Or simply disable Time to Relax. It can't be disabled, but the limit can be set to 100%, and it won't start in dungeons. Edited May 1, 2023 by HexBolt8 2
Hex Bolt Posted May 1, 2023 Author Posted May 1, 2023 14 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: I think this one [required nudity] probably comes back to the fetishisation of humiliation that we've spoken about before. You see humiliation. Others might see vulnerability. Just different ways of looking at it. 13 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: I don't really have a practical suggestion here, but I'd be more likely to feel like that was worth it if there were more of a gradual buildup. If it felt like Mistress were thoughtfully working on gradually helping me to get comfortable with my nakedness in a way that progresses logically, I could get on board with that. 13 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: The other piece of this puzzle for me is that, if I'm allowed to wear clothes, then I have to decide what to wear. Not having to make such decisions is another big part of the joy of submission. The nudity rule is just a more-refined version of the simple one in the original mod. For SLTR to enforce an actual clothing system, it would have to be flexible and configurable, with prerequisites for each stage, and settings for where the restrictions would apply. Such a system should also handle different end goals. In your vision, that is nudity most times in most places, and that's fine. Personally, I like a reward system that allows gradually better armor and clothing, taking it in the opposite direction. The effect on game play is an important factor for outfit rules, since a naked mage is viable, but a naked melee fighter is not (not without overpowered jewelry or buffs that trivialize wearing armor). For me, building an adequate outfit system is, unfortunately, just not worth the time & effort, considering that the effort could instead go into working on many other worthwhile features. I prefer to leave apparel rules to player roleplaying (which is how I handle it in my own games, with different rules for each playthrough). However, I believe that the extension that @coffeeink is working on will have an outfit system.
coffeeink Posted May 1, 2023 Posted May 1, 2023 15 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: The other piece of this puzzle for me is that, if I'm allowed to wear clothes, then I have to decide what to wear. Not having to make such decisions is another big part of the joy of submission. Mistress will do the thinking, and I'll just focus on following orders, after all. If, whilst allowed to wear clothes, Mistress could decide how to dress me, that would help, too, but otherwise, wearing nothing is one fewer decision for Lola to have to make. Life is complicated, and it often feels like I'm responsible for too many decisions and choices. A big part of the appeal of BDSM in general is being able to check out of having to decide everything for myself and just letting someone else take care of that for me—even if Her decisions might be difficult for me at first. As hexbolt mentioned (thanks for tagging) i currently develop a Lola Addon and the first stuff i added was an outfit rule system. The Addon is currenttly close to RC Candidate. If you want to risk your save game and willing to do some testing i can invite you to my closed test run.
Antiope_Apollonia Posted May 2, 2023 Posted May 2, 2023 4 hours ago, HexBolt8 said: You see humiliation. Others might see vulnerability. Just different ways of looking at it. Whatever you want to call it, the point is that it's a big turn on for some people, and it's a big turn off for others. 4 hours ago, HexBolt8 said: The nudity rule is just a more-refined version of the simple one in the original mod. For SLTR to enforce an actual clothing system, it would have to be flexible and configurable, with prerequisites for each stage, and settings for where the restrictions would apply. I think it's probably fine to leave the "clothing system" part to the add-on. The more important part of my suggestion was the smoother progression of nudity rules. But as I said, I'm not sure it's the highest priority use of development time. I was always bothered by the abruptness with which nudity rules are introduced, but just being always naked from the start side-steps the issue. 3 hours ago, HexBolt8 said: The effect on game play is an important factor for outfit rules, since a naked mage is viable, but a naked melee fighter is not (not without overpowered jewelry or buffs that trivialize wearing armor). I make a naked melee fighter work—and my game is set up to be quite difficult. It's a spellsword build rather than a true warrior, as it relies on Alteration for defense, but it's quite effective. For people who just skip crafting skills entirely and so don't temper any gear, my naked build is probably actually better defensively than armour would be. In Classical antiquity, the Celts were some of the most feared warriors in Europe, and they often fought totally naked. But, of course, if you were to implement my idea, it'd need to have plenty of configurability, as I certainly don't expect everyone to want to play the way I do. 2 hours ago, coffeeink said: As hexbolt mentioned (thanks for tagging) i currently develop a Lola Addon and the first stuff i added was an outfit rule system. Aye, I'm aware, and I've been following your progress. I thought about mentioning it in my post, but it was already way longer than planned, so I decided not to complicated it further, as the outfit system part was secondary to my main point about having more of a sense of training and progression in the nudity rules. I've never cared for the way, with no warning, Mistress just declares one day, "No more clothes for Lola." It feels capricious. It doesn't feel like being guided by a strong and steady hand. 2 hours ago, coffeeink said: If you want to risk your save game and willing to do some testing i can invite you to my closed test run. I've just gotten my game into a playable state again for the first time in well over half a year after a PC meltdown, and I'm still working on tweaking my load order and getting things back just the way I like them and getting up to speed with all the new stuff. So it'll be a while before I'm ready to be beta-testing anything—I just want to play some Skyrim for the first time in a long time. Also, as I described above, in the absence of a more robust progression system, my solution for not portraying Mistress as capricious has been to have worldbuilding that slaves are just always naked by default, so unless something like the expanded nudity enforcement system I described above were added first, I don't really have much cause to use an outfit system. 1
lcewolf Posted May 2, 2023 Posted May 2, 2023 Spoiler 19 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: I almost forgot I wanted to pick up on this briefly, as I think it's a good opportunity to shed some more light on the other side of the BDSM spectrum that I—and perhaps @lcewolf (with the very confusing name to tag!)—inhabit in evident contrast to you and others. I'm completely fine with this. I think this one probably comes back to the fetishisation of humiliation that we've spoken about before. Since I don't get any thrill from that, I don't really feel like I'm missing anything. I don't really have a practical suggestion here, but I'd be more likely to feel like that was worth it if there were more of a gradual buildup. If it felt like Mistress were thoughtfully working on gradually helping me to get comfortable with my nakedness in a way that progresses logically, I could get on board with that. For example: No prerequisites. No armour at home; only clothing. "Eye candy" event can play only at home, or maybe in an inn where you've rented a room (with a bit of time allowed to go to the room to strip). Minimum number of "Eye candy" events completed in a row without any violations—at least 3–5, or maybe configurable—plus minimum score. Armour only in the wild; only clothing in public. Naked at home. "Eye candy" can play in semi-public places like shops and other peoples' homes—maybe also caves and such?—but not inns, palaces, or on the street. Minimum further number of "Eye candy" events completed successfully; further minimum score. No armour anywhere; only clothing in the wild or in public. Naked in any dwelling or shop. "Eye Candy" can play in any indoor location. Minimum further number of "Eye candy" events completed successfully; further minimum score. Clothing only outdoors. Naked indoors. "Eye candy" can play anywhere. "Whiterun walk" event becomes available. Minimum further number of "Eye candy" events completed successfully; further minimum score. Naked everywhere always. "Fashion slave" event becomes available. On progressing to each new stage, Mistress would tell Lola what a good girl she's been and how proud she is of her progress, but she still has much to learn, then introduce the new rules. When there are no new rules to introduce, Mistress tells Lola how pleased She is that Lola has learnt to meet her expectations. For whatever ruleset has been most recently applied, if Lola forgets to change out of her armour or take off her clothes within some grace period—maybe 10–20 seconds—Mistress gives a gentle reminder, after which you have another 5–10 seconds before getting punished. For older rulesets, She's less forgiving of scatter-brained slaves. For the final ruleset, no grace period is needed, since there's no longer anything to take off. Probably would be a lot of work to implement, and I'm not saying it'd be worth it. But something along the lines of the above is what would be needed to make it feel worth it to me to delay the introduction of nudity rules. Basically, the idea would be that I want to be a good girl for Mistress and make Her proud, but sometimes it's hard, and I'm thankful for her guidance. A little positive reinforcement along the way goes a long way, too—as you say, any equine trainer or athletic coach knows the carrot works better than the stick. For me, this is exactly the point. I'll readily grant that it would be better if that desensitisation came more gradually and if Mistress played more of a role in it, but for me, that's explicitly the goal. I don't want things to be difficult, but I accept that I'll have to do difficult things in order to succeed in being a good pet for my Mistress and making Her proud of me. "Experiencing the loss" isn't a thrill for me, so the more quickly I can learn to stop thinking of it as a loss, the better. Humiliation isn't something for me to revel in; it's something to be endured—and hopefully, ultimately overcome—in service of a greater purpose. If Mistress's training can help me learn to accept it and transcend my natural loss aversion, then that's a beautiful thing that gets to the heart of the relationship between Mistress and slave. When Her rules feel capricious or arbitrary, that makes it harder for me to learn, and that's only frustrating. I have more respect for a Mistress who is skilled at training me to please Her, and the more I respect Mistress, the more pleasure there is to be had in submitting to Her. The other piece of this puzzle for me is that, if I'm allowed to wear clothes, then I have to decide what to wear. Not having to make such decisions is another big part of the joy of submission. Mistress will do the thinking, and I'll just focus on following orders, after all. If, whilst allowed to wear clothes, Mistress could decide how to dress me, that would help, too, but otherwise, wearing nothing is one fewer decision for Lola to have to make. Life is complicated, and it often feels like I'm responsible for too many decisions and choices. A big part of the appeal of BDSM in general is being able to check out of having to decide everything for myself and just letting someone else take care of that for me—even if Her decisions might be difficult for me at first. I know there's a whole other side to the spectrum of BDSM who look at these things very differently and find the humiliation and degradation thrilling or arousing, and each to her own, but I just wanted to shed some light on the mentality of the other end of that spectrum. I have no idea what the relative proportions are, but I know from reading erotica that that I must not be alone at this end, as material I like seems to find ample audience. Since it seems like most of the more vocal contributors to this thread are on the other end—nothing wrong with that; whatever tickles y'all's pickles—I just want to make sure that this side is clearly articulated, too. Okay, maybe that wasn't as brief as I'd intended. ? @Antiope_Apollonia, Sorry about my nickname Lcewolf ^^' I didn't know 8 years ago, i would love Loverlabs so mush when i have first subscrire. I pick my name a little fast. I do also enjoy immersion and share some or most of your point of view. 1 hour ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: my main point about having more of a sense of training and progression in the nudity rules. I've never cared for the way, with no warning, Mistress just declares one day, "No more clothes for Lola." It feels capricious. It doesn't feel like being guided by a strong and steady hand You are right for the outfit system. When i play with the «playfull» Master vs Strict it's the way i see it. It would make more sense to go gradually. It fit with what @HexBolt8 say about making you ready. It's also true it make your owner capricious. Give you back the right and remove it later. It's a way i see a playfull owner. But since @HexBolt8 add the Strict owner I take this one most of the time. I love it. I borrow money and my PC turn to has no real idea what he/she's gotten herself into. The PC making it for the money. But it's true i find something was missing for making you advance and pass the point of nudity (50 Sub). When the PC as a playful owner it's fit ok, but i didn't seam to be the case with a strict owner. He want to make you do thing without «Talkback». It's the reason why i suggest to add an answer in (About be a slave) with the Owner. It's the reason i rewrite some part and make some change to the mod over year for my personal use. It's also why i did try to explain the state of mind i think the PC would have with a strict owner (hope,tolerate,panic,mourn). I think «maybe wrongly» it could fil what i think is the missing part and improve the mod. But yes it would require some conversation between the Owner and the PC. Maybe at 10-20-30-40-50 Submission score. Reference about the conversation: Spoiler On 4/28/2023 at 8:27 PM, lcewolf said: Thank you for a very complete answer. It's help me to understand better. I didn't see submission score as a readiness point before you explain it. I will now use your feature about gold share. Thank you for this suggestion. My PC start her submission for gold. I do play with a strict owner and I always see the nudity rule like a point of No Return close to a final step. But you are right be naked at home it not very scary. The way you talk i guess i miss few event staying naked most of the time. But when you come in Solitude or any capital city completly naked. The level of shame and humiliation is so high and scary. A playfull owner will do that eventually to corrupt the PC and make your PC aroused. A strict owner don't care about how willing you are. He own you and he will impose his/her will. He will impose constant remember of his power over you. The collar is an important step. But i can be hide it can be discrete. A butt plug is not for excitement but breaking your will. You cannot ignore it or forget is presence when you walk around.Be naked is so mush worse. In town there is few person but in capital city there is so many people. Every set of eyes look at your naked body juging you. People will touch you, insult you, fuck and even rape you (Depending of your mod list). Before the score at 50. Your owner play with you(Playfull) or try to break you (Strict), The PC know he/she will get is clothing eventually. Hope make the PC tolerating without panicking because he/she know it will end eventually. She/He won't panic but will tolerate it. This rule strip your PC from that hope.(The way i see it) Even if your (Playfull) Master/Mistress allow you to hide your body part with your hand and Strict one won't. It strip you from your humanity. Your former status is a mirage. You can see important people well clothed, regular and even beggard with clothing. You are no longer at the same status as everyone. Animal have better right then you. You are a pet and you have pass a point of no return. It's why i think i will panic and go beg my owner to let me have this hope. The PC must mourn all her rights and status, which are now inaccessible to her, and move on. Submissive Lola is the mod that replaced for many, SD+. It has almost all the options of it and having much larger content. It fit well after and even before Slavery mod. After because it give a reason why the pc is or become submissive. (SD+,Public Whore, Wartimes...etc.) Also before because if the PC get out of this, the PC has change in the process. @HexBolt8I guess you have raise the bar very high ? and you are victim of your success. But in any case thank you. I try what you have suggest me and not picked completly naked all the time. Take away your clothing and give it back is also quite amusing. 1
Hex Bolt Posted May 2, 2023 Author Posted May 2, 2023 3 hours ago, lcewolf said: @HexBolt8I guess you have raise the bar very high ? and you are victim of your success. I laughed (in a good way) when I read this. Thank you. 4
ThatOneSpiderPhoenix Posted May 2, 2023 Posted May 2, 2023 21 hours ago, HexBolt8 said: I can look at possibly blocking stripping while Time to Relax is active. However, SkyUI's outfit hotkeys let you equip armor with the press of a key even with bound hands, so it shouldn't be difficult to get that armor back on. Thanks for letting me know about the SkyUI outfit hotkeys, I wasn't aware of that and definitely appreciate being informed. DD hand bindings making it impossible to change equipment or engage in sex without being stuck naked as a result was driving me crazy, and other mods were causing me this problem as well, so this may save me quite a bit of consternation. Will be sure to give it a try.
Hex Bolt Posted May 2, 2023 Author Posted May 2, 2023 1 hour ago, ThatOneSpiderPhoenix said: Thanks for letting me know about the SkyUI outfit hotkeys, I wasn't aware of that and definitely appreciate being informed. For SkyUI outfit keys, I recommend not enabling the "unequip armor" option, which removes what you're wearing before equipping the outfit. Unfortunately, SkyUI is not aware of devious devices so it will remove them too, including the collar that you have to wear all the time while enslaved. Prior to DD 5.2, that was particularly bad because that would leave those device slots in a bugged state.
Hex Bolt Posted May 2, 2023 Author Posted May 2, 2023 On 4/13/2023 at 8:11 PM, HexBolt8 said: On 4/13/2023 at 10:11 AM, Antiope_Apollonia said: ...we were engaged in a discussion about balancing the highest tier submission buff/debuff, which imposes a pretty harsh armour penalty that gets me killed a lot in the early–mid game with the pretty maximalist nudity rules my Mistress typically enforces. It's billed as a "buff", but it's definitely a net-negative unless you're decked out in tempered late-game armour. The debuff doesn't occur until score 99+. It's a net -40 to armor rating. Buffs can be turned off in the MCM. I've never been that happy with the combat buffs. They're my attempt to tone down the buffs in the original mod, but they're still too significant. I've reduced the combat buff strength across the board for the next update. For simplicity, there will only be one that is active rather than having two that stack at very high score. The armor rating buff for Inspired Service is gone, because it's odd for armor to first go up, then later go down for the higher Passionate Devotion buff. Passionate Devotion keeps an armor debuff, but it's only -10 now, which should be manageable even at low levels, and it's more than offset by the boosts to attack damage, health, and stamina. 1
Antiope_Apollonia Posted May 3, 2023 Posted May 3, 2023 (edited) A couple more observations regarding vampires: SexLab re-dressing seems to be disabled after feeding. I have to put my shoes back on manually every time. Not sure there's any reason not to re-equip normally. If you use Sexual Vampire Feeding, Mistress still doesn't strip. I decided to use both the sexual and non-sexual animations this time so that Mistress would sometimes get frisky during dinner and sometimes she just wants to eat and get back to business, but it has created a problem. I guess, when I re-tag the animations, maybe we should add a tag to differentiate the non-sexual animations from the sexual ones? Maybe "Dressed" on the non-sexual ones? That way you could have a cue to use for stripping or not. I'm not sure how this works mechanically, though, on the SexLab side. Do you have to decide whether or not to strip before calling the animation, or can you make that determination based on which animation is called? If the former, then I guess maybe we'd need an MCM slider from 1–100 for "Chance owner wants sex during feeding" or whathaveyou. Maybe it could detect whether you have the necessary animations installed to need the slider enabled? While we're on the topic of animation tagging, I thought maybe it was worth revisiting the collar/cuff-removal "ritual" for neck/wrist tags to flesh out my suggestion a bit more there and make it as easy as possible for you to realise my dream should you deign to do so. ? (I'm never sure how to balance making my suggestions more specific/detailed to save you work vs. keeping them more vague to leave them to your creative vision and not to be too presumptuous. But since you asked for other parts of this event...) After "I need your blood, slave," or whatever alternative dialogue, and Lola's response, Mistress simply says, "Kneel." Lola kneels. Probably, this should always use the ft_bdsm_idle_collarme animation instead of the default, regardless of MCM setting, as this one puts Lola's wrists within easy reach. Maybe, for the first time, or just generally at lower scores, we could have alternate responses for Lola to express her fears, e.g., something to the effect of, "Will it hurt, Mistress?" and "You won't take it all, right Mistress?" Mistress says something like, "All right. Let's get this/these off," and plays the same idle that's used for equipping the collar in the opening scene. Alternatives for variety: "Okay. Let's expose that delicious flesh." ("reveal"? "uncover"?) "Good. Let's get you ready." The collar or cuffs are unequipped. Feeding animation plays. I suppose Lola would be forcegreeted again after the animation. Maybe the "Such a tasty one," (or alternative) dialogue should be moved here, after the animation? Seems it could make the overall feeding scene flow better. Mistress again simply says, "Kneel." Lola kneels. I suppose unruly slaves could take this opportunity to beg Mistress not to re-collar/re-cuff them. Mistress says, "Good girl, Lola. Now let's get this/these back on before anything happens to you." Alternatives for variety: "That's my good girl. Now let's get you dressed." (Always found the idea of Lola's collar and cuffs being construed as her "outfit" to be intensely erotic.) "There's a good pet. Now let's get this back on. We can't have someone trying to steal my favourite snack, can we?" (Probably collar only.) "Good girl, Lola. Now let's get this/these back on before you wander off and get lost." (Low scores.) The collar or cuffs are re-equipped. Fin. If SLTR is calling a "Wrist" animation, and the player doesn't have a zad_DeviousArmCuffs or zbfWornWrist keyword, this little scene would probably be skipped. Of course, players could add a keyword to non-bondage bracelets or whatever, too, to have this play with other outfits and such. Should there maybe be some one-time dialogue for the first stage the first time the feeding event plays for Mistress to explain what's going to happen and what she expects from Lola? This might also be a better place for Lola to ask her worried questions, too. I can promise to make sure to have a "patch" ready to re-tag the animations when 2.0.62 is published if you want to operate on the assumption that people will have appropriately tagged animations—they're basically done; I've already subjected myself to all the necessary penises to see what's going on in all of them—just let me know if I've got them right. We need "Feeding" to mark them for, well, feeding. "Neck" or "Wrist" for what's being fed upon. And either "Dressed", "MF", "FM", or "FF", I guess, for sexual/non-sexual animations? Or should I maybe use something like "VampireMF", "VampireFM" and "VampireFF" to help prevent them being called inappropriately in other contexts? Should there be anything else, or will these three cover everything? I'm thinking the tags should be kept to the bare minimum—avoiding standard tags like "Vaginal", for example—to minimise the chance of other mods calling them inappropriately. In other news, I don't think this should happen: Spoiler It seems to be random whether Mistress uses the Simple Slavery-specific dialogue or the generic voluntary enslavement one after buying me. Edited May 3, 2023 by Antiope_Apollonia 1
Hex Bolt Posted May 3, 2023 Author Posted May 3, 2023 (edited) Vampire stuff: Spoiler 9 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: SexLab re-dressing seems to be disabled after feeding. I have to put my shoes back on manually every time. I'm guessing it's a SexLab thing, possibly based on settings and/or its interpretation of tags. When I tested the feeding event with no feeding animations (using the fallback generic sex), the PC's boots were not removed. I have Limited Stripping enabled. 9 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: If you use Sexual Vampire Feeding, Mistress still doesn't strip. The feeding function was designed, presumably, with neck biting in mind. It was unnecessary for the vampire to get naked, so stripping is blocked. 9 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: I decided to use both the sexual and non-sexual animations this time so that Mistress would sometimes get frisky during dinner and sometimes she just wants to eat and get back to business, but it has created a problem. I guess, when I re-tag the animations, maybe we should add a tag to differentiate the non-sexual animations from the sexual ones? The sexual animations pose a problem. I don't know about other vampire animations, but for Sexual Vampire Feeding, the only tag indicating sex is Vaginal, which only seems to be used with MF animations, so that won't work for FF feeding. Actually, only 2 animations in that pack have the Feeding tag, and they're both tagged as Vaginal and MF. Adding tags can help, but that's going to miss a lot of players (possibly the majority) who will simply download feeding animations like the Sexual Vampire Feeding pack and expect them to work. I'm not sure how to handle this. I could just switch to naked feeding. Unnecessary stripping seems better than clothed sex. Even a toggle would only work well if a player has all nonsexual or all sexual feeding animations (and I'm trying to limit the growth of MCM settings). 9 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: While we're on the topic of animation tagging, I thought maybe it was worth revisiting the collar/cuff-removal "ritual" for neck/wrist tags.... Would a vampiric owner really use a collar or other devices that block feeding? A non-bulky collar wouldn't get in the way. Cuffs could have enough movement to block the feeding area. We could use the stripping animation as a ritual, except... 9 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: Always found the idea of Lola's collar and cuffs being construed as her "outfit" to be intensely erotic. If the slave is always naked, there's no clothing to remove. Stripping is easy, and if redressing happens not to occur, it's not a big deal. But if a collar is removed and doesn't consistently get replaced, that's bad. 10 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: Should there maybe be some one-time dialogue for the first stage the first time the feeding event plays for Mistress to explain what's going to happen and what she expects from Lola? I'll add it to the ideas list, but it might not make this release, since I already finished expanding the feeding dialog, and I'd really like to get these updates published. 10 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: This might also be a better place for Lola to ask her worried questions, too. Yes. I liked those suggestions, but I had to leave them out of the feeding talk because regular use sounds non-submissive. They'd work well as an initial concern, though. 10 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: It seems to be random whether Mistress uses the Simple Slavery-specific dialogue or the generic voluntary enslavement one after buying me. It's based on how fast you click through the previous line. That's when the main quest starts and sets variables like the one that records whether you were bought. If you're too fast, the default is not bought. I can add a "speed bump" to that part of the talk to give the quest time to fully initialize. Edited May 3, 2023 by HexBolt8
Hex Bolt Posted May 4, 2023 Author Posted May 4, 2023 (edited) Version 2.0.62 New: Added a new option, Never, for the required nudity rule that prohibits clothing in certain areas. If you choose Never: - The rule will still start at score 50+, but the owner will say that no decision has been made yet where you must be naked. You will still have the objective to obey your clothing restrictions, but all areas will allow clothing until you change the rule setting. - The "Simple clothes only" rule (if enabled) will be enforced. - Nakedness within nudity markers will be enforced. New: For the palace shoe cleaning scene, you can now opt to kiss the owner's boots instead. - The owner has new lines to start the scene if you've chosen kissing, and new lines while you're doing it. - Kissing replaces the old "pretend to lick" option. If you were pretending before, you'll now use kissing. - Licking is required when your score is negative. - You can switch back & forth between licking and kissing through dialog during the scene. New: Vampire owner handling. - A new MCM Roleplay setting, "Feeding", controls whether the owner stays clothed (such as for neck biting) or strips (for sexual feeding animations). - The feeding event has new lines and players now have the option of an enthusiastic response. - There is now an introductory talk the first time a vampire feeds on Lola, if Lola is not a vampire too. - There are two special responses available for this talk, but they're mutually exclusive. - The fallback if no feeding animations are installed is now gender-appropriate oral sex. - The maximum setting for feeding time cooldown is now 100, up from 24. - If there is interest, I can add feeding for a vampire playmate. Changed: "Run, Lola, Run" can now start even if you have no gold. The owner will give you gold to cover the cost if you need it. - To account for barter mods, the estimated cost is inflated by 50% (the owner will take back leftover gold). - If you need a bigger inflation factor, export your settings, edit "PriceFactor" in LolaConfig.json, and import. Changed: The power of combat buffs for high score has been reduced. You might not see a change until your score updates. Changed: Basic prostitution no longer applies gold sharing to earnings. It only deducts the pimp/madame share. Changed: Added vanilla couriers to the list of excluded NPCs. Changed: Doubled the time allowed for buying homes and upgrades from stewards when spending the owner's money. Changed: Time To Relax should no longer start in mines or Blackreach. Changed: While Time To Relax is active, the events for stripping, fetching ale, and cooking a meal will not start. Changed: The cooldown for the hair change event now is now applied at the END of the event. This effectively extends the cooldown by 3 days, if you ask to get your hair back right away. You might want to adjust your cooldown setting. Changed: Added extra safeguards to prevent starting a force greeting when one from another mod is in progress. This will not prevent all conflicts, just reduce the frequency. Those other mods are also responsible for checking when it's okay to perform their force greetings. Other: Added 4 new mod events to support extensions to this mod. Edited May 4, 2023 by HexBolt8 7
Antiope_Apollonia Posted May 4, 2023 Posted May 4, 2023 (edited) 12 hours ago, HexBolt8 said: I'm guessing it's a SexLab thing, possibly based on settings and/or its interpretation of tags. When I tested the feeding event with no feeding animations (using the fallback generic sex), the PC's boots were not removed. I have Limited Stripping enabled. Hmm. I'll have to investigate further, I suppose. 12 hours ago, HexBolt8 said: The sexual animations pose a problem. I don't know about other vampire animations, but for Sexual Vampire Feeding, the only tag indicating sex is Vaginal, which only seems to be used with MF animations, so that won't work for FF feeding. Actually, only 2 animations in that pack have the Feeding tag, and they're both tagged as Vaginal and MF. If you want to check the tags as-is, you'd want to strip for VampireLesbian, VampireMale, or VampireFemale. All the sexual animations have one of those three, the non-sexual ones don't have any of them, and I doubt they're being used by any other mods. 12 hours ago, HexBolt8 said: Adding tags can help, but that's going to miss a lot of players (possibly the majority) who will simply download feeding animations like the Sexual Vampire Feeding pack and expect them to work. I've been meaning to ask you what you'd think about me making a mod page for SLTR patches and such. A place to put the tag fix, but also things like the compatibility patch for Darkwood Toys and the standalone TDF animations and other little things that come up, and also to collect links to the most up-to-date voice packs and whatever else is needed in one convenient place. I would think, with that and a link to it on the main mod page, we could catch a lot of people. Perhaps @Herowynne would also be willing to re-upload the non-sexual animations with the corrected tags, and/or to permit me to host them on said patch hub instead of in a post in this thread? That would catch more people. It looks like Sexual Vampire Feeding author @Perfidy is still semi-active on LL—last viewed on 5th April, but no recent posts—so I can reach out there, too, but I don't know if anything would come of it. 12 hours ago, HexBolt8 said: I'm not sure how to handle this. I could just switch to naked feeding. Unnecessary stripping seems better than clothed sex. Even a toggle would only work well if a player has all nonsexual or all sexual feeding animations (and I'm trying to limit the growth of MCM settings). Looking at the tags on both mods as they are, I don't see any problem with stripping VampireLesbian, VampireMale, and VampireFemale and not stripping in their absence. I'll preserve those tags in my patch, so you should be golden. 12 hours ago, HexBolt8 said: Would a vampiric owner really use a collar or other devices that block feeding? A non-bulky collar wouldn't get in the way. Cuffs could have enough movement to block the feeding area. Regardless of whatever roleplay justifications you can come up with, the reality is that we have the devices we have and we have the animations we have, and the result is a lot of gnawing on leather. Even if it weren't for that, I'd also say trying to eat around the collar/cuffs couldn't possibly be the nicest dining experience for Mistress, either. Sitting here messing around with my actual, physical collar and cuffs, I can't see any good way a hypothetical vampire could eat around them in any but the most awkward of fashion. Plus there's just the fact that having an excuse for such a scene would make for some really nice content. 12 hours ago, HexBolt8 said: We could use the stripping animation as a ritual, except... I think that's more complicated than would be necessary. Just have Lola kneel and Mistress play that squat and reach out animation—I assume it's vanilla?—that SLTR already uses for the initial collaring scene. It wouldn't need to be any more complicated than that in order to make a really meaningful event—two quick idles and a line of dialogue is all it'd take. I'd say it's better to keep it short and simple, anyway, so people don't find it intrusive. 12 hours ago, HexBolt8 said: 23 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: Always found the idea of Lola's collar and cuffs being construed as her "outfit" to be intensely erotic. If the slave is always naked, there's no clothing to remove. Stripping is easy, and if redressing happens not to occur, it's not a big deal. But if a collar is removed and doesn't consistently get replaced, that's bad. I'm not sure what you mean here. I was just commenting on the dialogue line I wrote. 12 hours ago, HexBolt8 said: I'll add it to the ideas list, but it might not make this release, since I already finished expanding the feeding dialog, and I'd really like to get these updates published. Sounds like it made it in after all? ? 12 hours ago, HexBolt8 said: It's based on how fast you click through the previous line. That's when the main quest starts and sets variables like the one that records whether you were bought. If you're too fast, the default is not bought. Makes sense. I don't usually click through dialogue, but while working on getting my mod list re-built from scratch after the event, I've been constantly starting new saves to test things. I don't actually even know where my chosen follower "lives", so I've just been using SS++ to have her come to me, and when you're going through that scene for the fifth time in a day, well, you're going to start clicking through. 12 hours ago, HexBolt8 said: I can add a "speed bump" to that part of the talk to give the quest time to fully initialize. ? 3 hours ago, HexBolt8 said: Version 2.0.62 Looks great! Can't wait to get started! ? 3 hours ago, HexBolt8 said: - The fallback if no feeding animations are installed is now gender-appropriate oral sex. Isn't there a very simple vanilla vampire feeding animation? Or am I just off my rocker? I'd think that'd be a better fallback if so. Edited May 4, 2023 by Antiope_Apollonia
Antiope_Apollonia Posted May 4, 2023 Posted May 4, 2023 (edited) So here's what I'm thinking as far as animation tags. Both packs as-is have "Vampire" tags, so that's preserved as the cue to check for appropriate feeding animations. I guess we should probably keep the "Feeding" tags where they are, too, and extend them to the rest of the animations, just for maximum compatibility in case some other mod out there is checking that tag and not checking "Vampire". The Sexual animations have "VampireMale", "VampireFemale", and "VampireLesbian" animations, which will be preserved as the cue that something sexual is happening, and indicating which actor is the top. It's kind of redundant since the absence of the any of the above three tags already indicates this, but the non-sexual animations can have "VampireDressed" tags just to round out the set with a consistent structure and to make it as easy as possible to check them. "FeedingNeck" or "FeedingWrist" tags are added to indicate what's being fed upon. All other tags are removed to minimise the chance of feeding animations being called inappropriately in other sexual situations. They're not really doing anything, anyway; e.g., all of the VampireMale animations have the "Creampie" tag (I presume I don't want to know what that is), and none of the other ones do, so it isn't really adding any information. Am I missing anything? Does anyone see any problems with this approach? Are there any other vampire animations out there that I'm not aware of that should be considered here? EDIT: I've gone ahead and attached a provisional version. You should be able to install these with a mod manager and let them overwrite; re-registering animations is probably necessary, but I think they'll work mid-playthrough if you do. This file covers both mods, but if you only use one, it shouldn't hurt anything. Vampire Feeding Animation Tags Patched for SLTR.7z Edited May 4, 2023 by Antiope_Apollonia
shrtjsrtj Posted May 4, 2023 Posted May 4, 2023 On the collar blocking feeding issue, another way to look at it is that it hides bite marks. Maybe your owner just wants to be less obvious about their vampirism.
Antiope_Apollonia Posted May 4, 2023 Posted May 4, 2023 4 minutes ago, shrtjsrtj said: On the collar blocking feeding issue, another way to look at it is that it hides bite marks. Maybe your owner just wants to be less obvious about their vampirism. That's perfectly fine when the collar is re-equipped after feeding. It doesn't do anything to explain why she's eating my collar during feeding. 1
Hex Bolt Posted May 4, 2023 Author Posted May 4, 2023 7 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: That's perfectly fine when the collar is re-equipped after feeding. It doesn't do anything to explain why she's eating my collar during feeding. Removal of devices during vampire feeding is just not something that I want to work on.
Johannes01 Posted May 4, 2023 Posted May 4, 2023 (edited) Just updated from 2.0.60 to 2.0.62 and now when starting conversation with master the normal "Master" changed to "Lord or Lady". Is it possible to change back to master or something else. Maybe with the jpimport/export script through sseedit? Using SE version Sorry, found the corresponding setting in the MCM Edited May 4, 2023 by Johannes01
Murderdevil Posted May 6, 2023 Posted May 6, 2023 Does this work with Sexlab P+? I keep getting "Sexlab - FATAL - Thread" Errors when asking for spankings.
Hex Bolt Posted May 6, 2023 Author Posted May 6, 2023 56 minutes ago, Murderdevil said: Does this work with Sexlab P+? I don't know. 56 minutes ago, Murderdevil said: I keep getting "Sexlab - FATAL - Thread" Errors when asking for spankings. At a guess, P+ doesn't support the complete set of SexLab's functions, but that's only a guess. This mod requires SexLab or a 100% compatible replacement.
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