Devious Followers - Continued

[HexBolt8]

Seconding Darkwing's comments.  There are enough workarounds for handling multi-slot sets, the simplest (as previously noted) is just making the body slot piece the whore clothing and then manually equipping the rest when changing outfits.  With just a little CK/Tes5Edit skill, a player can create an armor with multiple armor add-ons so it can be equipped as one item.  (For me, that works okay with up to 3 add-ons, then the game starts to get confused.)  With more skill, Nifskope can combine all those parts into a single mesh, with the benefit that it now only uses the body slot 32, and that mesh can be dropped into the custom armor folder.  (With Melodic's outfits, I generally combine the pieces into one mesh for ease of use and to free up slots.  That gets wiped out if I rerun BodySlide, but I don't change body shape during a playthrough anyway, and on the next playthrough I'll probably use a different outfit.) 

 

Since the outfits seem to be a popular feature, even though it's only one deal it might still be worthwhile to add a basic MCM option to mark what you're wearing in your body slot as a whore outfit, if that's not a big investment of development time.  Using the custom armor folders is fairly simple, but some players still get confused.

[Reesewow]

I'd third Darkwing241's comment as well - multislot support may be more effort than the benefits involved unless clothing control was going to become a major feature of DF, or the whore armor deal became a complex deal itself.  

 

For the purposes of the one stage of one deal level of content, I think the current implementation is OK for my purposes.  The non-body slots I find are already somewhat tied to the deal simply through the player's desire to have their character look decent - in my game one of the whore armor "body slots" was actually just a bra, and I swapped to using the panties/gloves/boots to match that (other deals allowing).  Exactly as you suggest for the maid outfit - I just gave the items to myself through additemmenu and stored them for future use - same as if I had specific DD's I preferred over whatever the DF would give me.

 

I do think in-game tagging of armor to use as whore armor could be a good feature for people with little modding experience - judging by how often the CBBE/UUNP texture issues come up in the thread it seems to be one of the lesser understood features of the mod.  If additional items could be tagged as "also give these when giving whore armor" then that would cover the need to use console/additemmenu - that seems like a lot of extra coding/mcm menu work for such a tiny bit of content.  IMO player self-sufficiency should be good enough, or they can just use whatever they scrounge up and the result can be part of the DF's enjoyment.

 

 

That being said - if there was a desire to redo the whore armor mechanic into something a lot deeper/more involved then I think such tagging or MCM menu detection would become more important.  For instance if whore armor became a deal unto itself, with outfits becoming progressively sluttier and the player's interactions with NPCs/the DF being affected as a result - being able to slot several sets of armor into the MCM menu beforehand would probably be an important quality of life addition.

[Lupine00]

5 hours ago, Reesewow said:

That being said - if there was a desire to redo the whore armor mechanic into something a lot deeper/more involved then I think such tagging or MCM menu detection would become more important.

That might overstate it, but there is an intent to have a different clothing requirement to "whore armor" in the introductory deal.

 

Whore armor as it stands continues to be a support problem. Every so often, questions arise about the included armor, or adding custom armor, or problems with adding custom armor.

 

The mechanic where it dumps three items into your inventory, instead of giving you the follower's choice and demanding you wear that, is also something that bothers me.

 

So, I think some changes are probable; the extent of them is another matter.

[Lupine00]

On 6/9/2020 at 7:56 AM, HexBolt8 said:

An idea for a possible deal is a Key Deal.  You're permitted to keep the keys you have now, but any new keys that you find are taken by the DF (destroyed or stored in an inaccessible place).  Key count would be allowed to increase by the amount won from the key gambling game.  If you run out of keys (or started with none) you'll have to gamble for them or pay for an unlock while the deal is in effect.  A possible exception for key removal would be in a player home, since obviously keys entering your inventory there are already owned by you, not found.  Or not.  It's in the DF's interest to make you gamble or pay, but I was thinking that a single deal shouldn't be crippling. 

 

I also thought about a key holder arrangement (key control) but being protected from having your keys stolen is quite an advantage.  It might work if the DF keeps some fraction (half or more) of the keys to be held or controlled, with a cap on how many count as yours so you can't bank too many (any keys taken by the DF to be controlled after the cap automatically go to the DF).  A form of key control like this could be an effective solution if you're finding too many keys.

I didn't have time to respond to this when it was posted, but I didn't forget about it  

 

Key control is in the first item on the roadmap:

 

Spoiler

 

Introductory Deal

Can be configured to always be given first

Level 1 - follower wants you to wear a sexy outfit in towns

Level 2 - follower wants periodic sex

Level 3 - follower wants to look after your keys for you so you don't lose any

 

 

The introductory deal is designed as a "soft" way to get deals to satisfy follower boredom.

The idea is that if it's enabled, and you do not have this deal, the follower always offers it; it blocks all other deals.

You can have no deals and not have it, and you can have a bunch of deals and buy out of it, but it will always be the deal offered if you do not have it.

With high willpower you can refuse it, and maybe that will allow you to take another deal instead.

 

So, if enabled, it's basically a pre-requisite to being able to take deals: first you must agree to these terms.

Before you get into deals "seriously", you have already agreed to act as the follower's sub, by dressing for them, having sex with them, and letting them control your keys.

The main benefit of this is that it allows dialogs to be more "on point" and better reflect the relationship with the follower, by using this deal stage as a condition.

 

Another way of handling this I considered is that if you have any other deal, you cannot buy out of this deal. It would then be first-in, last-out.

Maybe that should also be an option? That would include deep-debt modular deal, so if you get that, you're locked into the Intro deal for the long-term.

 

 

 The specific implementation of key control is ... somewhat ... TBD.

However, I'm not a big fan of "You're permitted to keep the keys you have now, but any new keys that you find are taken by the DF" because it's just more complicated to implement than a uniform approach.

 

After winning keys in the key game, you would have a window of time to use them before they are taken off you.

In general, keys are taken off you as you get them. Keys taken off you, no matter how you got them, are counted (added to appropriate key pool).

 

The follower will perform device removals at a discount, using your keys. as long as you have keys in the necessary pool. (There are three kinds of key, if we count piercing tools).

So, you would have to pay to use your keys, but it would be a predictable cost, and less than paying the follower to use their own keys or playing the key game.

Player houses would be no special exception. Take keys from your storage chest? Follower removes them immediately, unless you just played the key game.

 

There are in practice quite a few corner cases and complexities even in this, but it's still about as simple as it can be.

 

The idea of a cap on the pool size makes sense.

 

It's also possible that if your debt is over the "half enslavement debt" limit, the follower takes keys from the pool as payment.

 

e.g.

Device removal base cost is currently 400.

Removal with own key is half-price: 200.

Keys taken as payment are half of that: 100 debt relief per key.

 

The reason to maintain the key game and let the player have keys from it, is (apart from generating debt) it lets the player remove devices when the follower is in hands-off mode due to block-generic items being present.

 

Another possibility, is that if you have keys in your pool, talking to the follower while wearing devices results in the follower removing devices for you, using your keys, even if you specifically ask for it. The follower would in that case be able to work around the block-generic problem.

 

e.g.

"Can you use some of my keys to get this stuff off me?"

"Sure partner."

 

And then the follower removes devices at random until all keys are used up, or no devices remain, and charges you the discount removal fee for each one.

 

Why does this problem exist? Can't you fix the dialogs?

Spoiler

 

To explain the reasoning behind this, the block-generic problem flows from being unable to see what device is adding the block generic flag in the dialogs.

To establish that level of detail is costly. Each device has to be found and examined individually.

Doing that in dialog conditions is not practical, or at the very least would require a major and time-consuming full rebuild of the device removal dialogues, and there are definitely timing concerns.

 

Doing it in a script that can take several seconds to achieve a result is fine. In this case, the time to remove the devices is much longer than the time taken to properly identify them, and the script can take the time to properly examine each device to see whether it is block generic or not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Talking about lock-in deals...

The Deep Debt modular deal given as a higher stage deal can lock in other modular deals...

People haven't really understood how that plays yet. It's in 2.12 alpha, so I suggest you try it out.

I tried it in test. You can get something like wear a gag and wear slave boots locked in with deep debt.

Getting out of that is ... really hard ... you are probably only going to do it by getting yourself abandoned.

 

With the cash-balance changes, you cannot simply level yourself up to buy out old deals, as they keep getting more expensive to buy out of as you level.

Don't pay too much mind to the exact prices you see for expensive deal in the alpha; I'm going to tweak that a bit. Modular deal buyout prices are broken in the alpha and go down to zero when they clearly should not. There's a missing test.

 

 

Possibly, abandonment is currently a bit soft?

I noticed a post on here where somebody didn't realize that after leaving the "cave" they have a bounty in four holds.

The bounty in four holds should probably be changed to bounty in all holds, and there should probably be more devices added.

After all, getting rid of a bounty is no harder than getting arrested and serving your time.

A belt and plugs would be a nice parting gift. Some tattoos too maybe? And perhaps a massive dose of skooma (SW install permitting)?

 

A nasty option for SLS users with AF could be for the follower to cut off your arms and legs before discarding you.

That's pretty hardcore, though Slaverun does it as a matter of course.

 

Now that a bunch of systemic problems are fixed, or mostly so (deal conflicts, broken dialogs, cost balancing, MCM disorganization) there should be a clear path to adding the roadmap items and 2.13 will be roadmap oriented. i.e. new deals.

 

 

[HexBolt8]

Sorry, yeah I'd forgotten about the roadmap and that key control was in there.

 

On abandonment, yes with vanilla prisons a bounty is a joke.  Surrender, click bed, and an instant later you're free.  With prison replacers, a high bounty might be too harsh.  Why not get rid of the bounty?  If the DF wanted to involve the authorities, that should have been done instead of abandoning you.  And the player can remove tattoos just by opening SlaveTats.  Being sold as a slave makes the most sense, recovering some fraction of what the worthless PC owed.  If Simple Slavery isn't installed, then something like the belt and plugs would have to do.  I wouldn't spend too much time on abandonment though.  In normal play, one should rarely if ever see it.  If the player has failed that badly, a clean slate is in order.  If the player is gaming the system by taking the easy out, there are so many other ways to cheat.

 

An alternative to abandonment or sold into slavery might be trading your freedom.  Like the weird potion, it would be a one-time permanent bargain that would clear your debt (though maybe not the deals).  You agree to be the DF's slave.  Mechanistically, that would activate Continuous Mode and lock out dismissing the follower.  (If you already had continuous mode on, you can never be sold or abandoned so you'd never reach that point.)  You still have to pay the DF, but now it's considered your "quota".  It could work the exactly the same as daily payments, no changes needed.  That is an easy way out, particularly if you intended to stay with that follower anyway, but so what?  The point is to punish the character, not the player, and becoming a slave is no small thing for the character.  For the player, it could be an immersive path to an end the player actually wanted.  For others it might be an interesting twist to the story, from adventurer to slave.  If you don't want that option, don't activate it.  Just an idea, but the basic implementation seems pretty simple.  Enhancements to dialog could follow later but they wouldn't be necessary. 

 

I'm concerned about the Deep Debt "expensive" deals.  I hadn't realized that they could potentially lock in a lower level deal.  That's not going to work.  Players won't like it.  Perhaps Deep Debt deals can go in their own silo, an always-active Septim Deal or something, so they only stack with each other.  Another matter is that they feel quite arbitrary and unfair even for a devious follower.  Sure, there's no immediate consequence, but can the DF really just claim that because of a new deal you owe that much money to buy out?  Maybe implement them as 3 deals, so the first one is less expensive and the cost for the second and third increases.  That gives you an indication with the first deal that bad things are coming.  If you don't handle it, you eventually get the harsher second and third deals.

[Lupine00]

11 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

On abandonment

Abandonment appears to serve the purpose of providing a way out when things spiral out of control to the point that escape is hopeless.

 

Replacing it with a sale to SS as an option is one thing, but it needs to do something without SS.

 

Bounties: I think these are immersive - the follower reported you as owing a huge debt, and if we can tolerate the nonsense in SLS, this is hardly a stretch.

Each bounty imposes a cost you can either pay off, or deal with by other means.

If you have to go to Dagonar for each one, well, that would be a bit of a pain... But that's a problem with Dagonar, not PoP or vanilla. Dagonar users can work out how they want to deal with that. If you don't like going there, why would you even install it? Presumably if you like it, you spend your entire game there, marching up and down the room in a hobble-dress or carrying rocks.

 

I believe that "endless mode" followers can still abandon you if you reach the debt threshold.

If not, I believe they should be able to. All "endless mode" is really doing is swapping the enslavement system with Chains of Debt.

There are very few tests against endless mode in the code, for any purpose. And like enslavement, you need some kind of out when it goes nuts.

 

The slave agreement is another thing, and I was going to talk about something similar in my last post, then backed away from it, as it was going to take some time to address properly.

We already have Weird Potion, and there is no way out of that ever. The curse removing NPC is put in an essential alias and can never die, and there is no way to cure it.

Adding a way to cure it, maybe something absurdly hard, would be interesting, but also a lot of effort, and gating that content behind weird potion seems like many players would never see it.

 

As for mechanics for willing servitude/lifetime contract/etc ... that relates closely to what I wanted from the "Boss Follower" mechanics. I like it, but it's way off in the future if it's anywhere.

 

11 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

I'm concerned about the Deep Debt "expensive" deals.

The costs are supposed to work incrementally, so you can pay off just a single stage, but they're broken at the moment, in multiple ways. I wrote some garbage for the cost calculation and then never looked back at it until I wrote that last post, at which point I saw it wasn't even close to what I'd wanted.

 

I do see a situation where you get one device, and then add two deep debts, and it's hard to get rid of, but it shouldn't be impossible. Even a triple deep-debt shouldn't be impossible, just hard. So most likely the player needs a way to adjust the difficulty to their liking.

 

e.g.

one deep debt stage = + K x daily debt

two deep debt stages = + K x 2 x daily debt

three deep debt stages = + K x 4 x daily debt

(we're just counting the stages in the deal, it doesn't matter what their actual stage is)

 

Where the player can configure K

 

Let's say that K is 2.0 for an example:

The default costs are lvl 10 = 493 and lvl 20 = 1017

 

Considering only the worst case of a three stage deal...

zero stages deep-debt, three devices = 493 x 3 = 1479

one stage deep-debt, two devices   = 493 x 3 + 986 = 2465

two stages deep-debt, one device   = 493 x 3 + 986 + 1972 = 4437

three stages deep-debt, no devices = 493 x 3 + 986 + 1972 + 3944 = 8381

 

So, deep debt that locks a single device-deal can cost up to 4437 at level 10, or up to  9153 at level 20 ... with default settings.

However, a triple deep-debt deal is 8381 at level 10, or 17289 at level 20, but such a deal is pure debt and cannot have any devices.

 

I'm not quite sure how you'd end up with such deals by level 10, but I guess it's easy enough if you come in via SS or something.

 

It really depends on your game whether this sounds harsh or not.

If you think it does, then you can turn K down to 0.1, or disable the deep debt deal completely.

 

 

The next release, let's call it a beta, should appear by the weekend at the latest, and will have this scaling.

 

However, I don't want to remove the option of getting deep-debt deals mixed with other modular deals, because:

a) it solves the issue of not being able to award a modular deal

b) it makes modular deals kind of spicy

c) if you don't like it much, you can turn K down as low as 0.1, and your normal payout cost down to a mere fraction of daily debt, or even zero!

d) makes weird potion more attractive. You love drinking weird potions don't you?

e) also makes a "lifetime contract" (that initially gets rid of all deals) a useful mechanic, even if we don't have such a contract yet.

 

[Lupine00]

Lovely... The forum ate my beta post, along with all my fix notes, which I have now permanently lost.

 

Thanks to @HexBolt8 for re-posting the old change list.

Spoiler

• 2.12

• Fixed poor wording in debug add follower dialogs.
• Debug add follower dialogs now only show up on PotentialFollower and PotentialHireling faction members.
• Overhaul of MCM layouts so less scrolling is required and General page less crowded.
• Fixed bug where MCM updates would lead to some MCM entries behaving as OTHER entries until you'd re-visisted every page.
• Total rework of all costs and level scaling.
  •     Daily follower cost is now determined by fixed "cost at level 1" and "cost at level 100" values, along with a difficulty curve (or line).
  •     You can choose from preset curves, or put in your own exponent value.
  •     See the main post above for details on the curves.
  •     Most other costs now scale off the cost per day, so you can set up "fair" scalings and tweak the overall mod difficulty by adjusting only the cost per day values.
  •     No more need to constantly tweak Enslavement Threshold or Maximum Debt (which now has a new, clearer name).
  •     Punishment Debt and Deal values are all based off the per-day cost.
• Fixed Chaos updates to they don't only occur if you sleep 6+ hours, but instead occur on all debt updates sleeps.
• Total rework of Chaos system.
  •     Chaos prices are now all scale values too, so your Chaos setup should work with almost any debt configuration.
  •     Chaos doesn't change or overwrite any of the main settings but is completely separate.
  •     If you disable Chaos, your regular settings should take over without having been altered or corrupted.
  •     Chaos settings that are multiplier ARE evenly distributed across the scale range you choose.
  •     The proportional weighted update of chaos values works properly, even for lives.
  •     Chaos does not restore follower lives every time you adjust a setting.
  •     Disable the re-enable chaos will cause a complete (100%) re-randomization of chaos values.
  •     The hide values now only impacts the special chaos values display on the chaos page, and doesn't change or hide any settings in the main configuration - all those values will continue to work as normal; chaos is just a scale applied on top of them (lives and deal duration are an exception to this, in that either the chaos or the normal value is used, but the two do not interfere with each other).
• Added expensive modular "Deep Debt" deal - this is a seemingly harmless deal with a high buyout cost. It can be obtained multiple times, and as a level 1, 2 or 3 stage in any modular deal. The deep debt buyout cost is not impacted by early buyout scaling and depends on how many stages of deep debt you have in a deal, not what stage they appear at.
• Fixed willpower-resistance fatigue removal by religious donation.
• Fixed bogus log spam about none items, relating to worn item removal.
• Fixed forced follower start so it doesn't occur while mod is paused.
• Fixed (stopped) enforcement of deals while enslaved.
• Added variant "debt added" follower announcements, depending on gold-control mode and willpower.
• Reworked device application system for enslavement events.
• Fixed various info/tooltip items that were not displaying, or had bad information.
• Improved data about debt/gold-control on stats page.
• Raised quest priorities, which should hopefully make more followers reliably devious without causing problems in other mods.
• Updated old chaos tooltips which were mainly useless placeholders.
• Fixed broken slider for daily debt increase due to boredom.
• Improved labels and tooltips on main deals menu page.
• Fixed issue with main debt/deals dialog vanishing at certain willpower levels if you had no deals.
• Fixed issue with boredom, and debt penalties not being reset on enslavement via the enslave me MCM button (which enslaves you directly, not the SS way). Not enabled if you don't have SS.
• If you have no default SS "slaver", your first DF will be assigned to that role. If you set one yourself it always takes precedence.
• Fixed display of boredom on main stats page not showing decimal place.
• Rewrote and added male/female variants for innkeeper modular deal and vendor modular deal scenes.
• Fixed generic bug with foreplay and anal sex not selecting foreplay or anal.
• Improved sex animation selection with respect to devices, for almost all occasions sex is played by DF.
• Fixed merchant + innkeeper deals so that oral isn't used if gagged, vaginal isn't used if belted. (May need new game).
• Fixed equipment weights of whore armor.
• Weird potion now debuffs magic, increases stagger taken, reduces intimidate and has higher weight scaling for armor.
• Can toggle and configure custom whore armor in hardcore mode.
• "Other mods" settings no longer hidden in hardcore mode. (So you can configure them if added).
• Added spanking mechanics:
  • Added spanking mechanic, get spanked by your follower, if you are an STA masochist or the follower is bored.
  • Added spanking mechanic, get spanked by a guard if you are an STA masochist or female.
  • Added mod event to trigger spanking mechanic.
  • Added spanking config display in 'other mods' to provide details on animations and patch status.
  • Beta adds boob spanking to increase the max pain you can reach from spanking.
• Fixed walk away from deal dialog so you always get a deal at low willpower. (May need new game).
• Added Simple Slavery enslavement button in Debug menu that works even if SS not present (sort of).
• Improved quest and AI priorities so there might be less problems with mods that override behaviors or dialogs.
• Fixed looping dialogs on low will for modular deals.
• Fixed buggy walk away dialogs for modular deals.
• Reworked willpower regain, especially in MCM - now a min and max regain slider, and no toggle boxes. Min regain is always regained, max regain possible if no devices or deals, get an amount in between based on how many deals and devices you have.
• Added slider to adjust scaling of the expensive "deep debt" deal in the modular deals page.
• Re-FNIS of animation files with latest FNIS for modders.
• Added some boredom relief from the denial scenes triggered by the Ownership Deal.
• Added longer delays when giving out multiple devices for a deal.
• Changed the details of penalties to max resistance from devices, if enabled. Removed heavy-bondage from the items that reduce max resistance. Added corset/harness to causes. Doubled the max resistance reduction from collars.

 

 

Here is the first beta:

Look at newer posts for the latest beta.

 

[Xiaron]

10 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

We already have Weird Potion, and there is no way out of that ever. The curse removing NPC is put in an essential alias and can never die, and there is no way to cure it.

Adding a way to cure it, maybe something absurdly hard, would be interesting, but also a lot of effort, and gating that content behind weird potion seems like many players would never see it.

Just my 2 cents. Currently I have/will never use weird potion just because there isn't a way to remove it in game. A mechanic to cure it even if very difficult would make it have value for me as intended. So while it's certainly possible many players would never see whatever you put together to cure the weird potion, I would think it's also possible that players that had been uninterested in the mechanic because of the permanence would use it now since while they would have to work for it, there was a way out of the situation. There's probably more coding involved than I realize, but having the player find out about a cure potion that requires rare ingredients they have to make to remove the weird potion effect doesn't seem like it would be too difficult? The difficulty in game being more having to find amounts of something rare (daedra hearts, nirnroot?) then you writing a quest to take them all over which as you said could be a lot of work for not much value.

 

Also, haven't tested the beta but I'm not finding any issues with the last alpha once I got past the user error I was having. The text line I mentioned before is indeed gone, and I love the payment scale. It's more of a constant struggle to keep the DF paid rather then way too hard at first, and then too easy unless I tweak the numbers. Thank you!

[HexBolt8]

@Lupine00, I was able to retrieve a cached copy of your alpha change log from yesterday.

 

Spoiler

2.12

• Fixed poor wording in debug add follower dialogs.
• Debug add follower dialogs now only show up on PotentialFollower and PotentialHireling faction members.
• Overhaul of MCM layouts so less scrolling is required and General page less crowded.
• Fixed bug where MCM updates would lead to some MCM entries behaving as OTHER entries until you'd re-visisted every page.
• Total rework of all costs and level scaling.
  •     Daily follower cost is now determined by fixed "cost at level 1" and "cost at level 100" values, along with a difficulty curve (or line).
  •     You can choose from preset curves, or put in your own exponent value.
  •     See the main post above for details on the curves.
  •     Most other costs now scale off the cost per day, so you can set up "fair" scalings and tweak the overall mod difficulty by adjusting only the cost per day values.
  •     No more need to constantly tweak Enslavement Threshold or Maximum Debt (which now has a new, clearer name).
  •     Punishment Debt and Deal values are all based off the per-day cost.
• Fixed Chaos updates to they don't only occur if you sleep 6+ hours, but instead occur on all debt updates sleeps.
• Total rework of Chaos system.
  •     Chaos prices are now all scale values too, so your Chaos setup should work with almost any debt configuration.
  •     Chaos doesn't change or overwrite any of the main settings but is completely separate.
  •     If you disable Chaos, your regular settings should take over without having been altered or corrupted.
  •     Chaos settings that are multiplier ARE evenly distributed across the scale range you choose.
  •     The proportional weighted update of chaos values works properly, even for lives.
  •     Chaos does not restore follower lives every time you adjust a setting.
  •     Disable the re-enable chaos will cause a complete (100%) re-randomization of chaos values.
  •     The hide values now only impacts the special chaos values display on the chaos page, and doesn't change or hide any settings in the main configuration - all those values will continue to work as normal; chaos is just a scale applied on top of them (lives and deal duration are an exception to this, in that either the chaos or the normal value is used, but the two do not interfere with each other).
• Added modular "Expensive Deal" - this is a seemingly harmless deal with a 10x normal payoff cost. It can be obtained multiple times, and as a level 1, 2 or 3 deal.
• Fixed willpower-resistance fatigue removal by religious donation.
• Fixed bogus log spam about none items, relating to worn item removal.
• Fixed forced follower start so it doesn't occur while mod is paused.
• Fixed (stopped) enforcement of deals while enslaved.
• Added variant "debt added" follower announcements, depending on gold-control mode and willpower.
• Reworked device application system for enslavement events.
• Fixed various info/tooltip items that were not displaying, or had bad information.
• Improved data about debt/gold-control on stats page.
• Raised quest priorities, which should hopefully make more followers reliably devious without causing problems in other mods.
• Updated chaos tooltips which were mainly useless placeholders.
• Fixed inability to disable modular deals in MCM introduced in earlier alpha.
• Fixed broken slider for daily debt increase due to boredom.
• Improved labels and tooltips on main deals menu page.
• Fixed issue with main debt/deals dialog vanishing at certain willpower levels if you had no deals.
• Added spanking dialogs and actual spanking (see details in main post section above).
• Added a menu item to send to Simple Slavery - currently doesn't send you properly but does enslave you more or less the same way.
• Fixed issue with boredom, and debt penalties not being reset on enslavement via the enslave me MCM button (which enslaves you directly, not the SS way). Not enabled if you don't have SS.
• If you have no default SS "slaver", your first DF will be assigned to that role. If you set one yourself it always takes precedence.
• Fixed display of boredom on main stats page not showing decimal place.
• Restricted spanking requests to within dwellings.
• Added male dialogs for spanking.
• Rewrote and added male/female variants for innkeeper modular deal and vendor modular deal scenes.
• Fixed generic bug with foreplay and anal sex not selecting foreplay or anal.
• Improved animation selection with respect to devices, for all occasions.
• Fixed merchant + innkeeper deals so that oral isn't used if gagged, vaginal isn't used if belted. (May need new game).
• Fixed weights of whore armor.
• Fixed weird potion perk to debuff magic and intimidate, and increase staggers taken.
• Can toggle and configure custom whore armor in hardcore mode.
• "Other mods" settings no longer hidden in hardcore mode. (So you can configure them if added).
• Improved spanking config display to provide more details:  animations and patch status.
• Fixed walk away from deal dialog so you always get a deal at low willpower. (May need new game).
• Simple Slavery enslavement button that works even if SS not present (sort of).

 

[HexBolt8]

Lupine, your term "lifetime contract" is just right.  I'd been grasping for something less than "enslavement" that was also permanent.  It's a nicer way out of hopeless debt than the weird potion. and yes those Deep Debt deals could drive one to make that choice if they're allowed to pile up.  The ability to configure the deep debt factor should make those deals work for just about any play style.

[Lupine00]

12 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

I'd been grasping for something less than "enslavement" that was also permanent.

Lifetime contract needs something a little more than just being a lifetime contract, but not too much, or it's too intrusive, or too much effort.

 

My initial thoughts are that if lifetime contract is added, when the player agrees to it, the follower explains the contract is not so much for a lifetime follower, but to be a lifetime follower.

 

But in practice, it could mean:

• Deep debt deals are replaced with 'obligation' deals.
• If you somehow manage to remove the follower as a follower, they will - after a time - track you down and re-add as your follower, even if this means kicking some other follower, or meaning you have additional followers (depends on follower framework availability). This will only happen when you go in "safe" places, so it won't occur while you are enslaved in a cave, or locked in a prison cell, or being whipped in PoP.
• The follower won't enslave you - endless mode is turned on if it was off.
• You can still be abandoned for huge debt. In which case, the contract is ended.
• If the follower is mad at you for exceeding the enslavement debt, they will check your deal-devices every time you sleep and re-fit them all, properly locked. (I'm thinking this should be a general feature of endless mode?)
• You must wear the follower's collar. It's just a regular collar. Alternative collars will be grudgingly accepted.
• If the introductory deals are enabled, you can't buy out of them once you've got them.

 

The obligation deals are a mixed blessing.

They will add bonus debt relief when you get them and have normal buyout cost.

However, each one you make, adds to an "Obligations" count (one time, at the point you get the deal).

 

The follower can call in the obligations at some later date, which they will tend to do any time you don't have many (or any) deals, or have a good credit balance, etc.

Obligations could be called in thus:

• You must take a deal - there is no debt relief from it.
• A number of days are added to an existing deal.
• You accept a substantial addition to your cash debt.
• Any fun mechanic you can think of that fits in, such as playing a game.

 

The intent is that when times are hard, and you are piling on modular deals, you get a break, and the follower eases off by basically giving you free debt relief.

And when times get better, you have to pay back.

 

It's a modest self-balancing mechanic. It's designed around "easy to implement" while still doing useful things, and still creating some immersive feeling of having given up something important to the follower.

 

This, and the new deals won't be in 2.12, which is now more or less done.

 

However, 2.13 will be new deals, at least spanking and introductory deals. Something like this "lifetime contract" might fit in there, along with some kind of simple mechanic for curing the weird potion. I'm currently thinking of a basic run-around quest that takes back and forth across Skyrim a bit, and requires daedra heart, red nirnroot, and an item you only get from finishing the run-around to make an antidote. Another option is less extreme ingredients, but you need to take the antidote every time the effect triggers.

[twsnider1138]

Lupine00, is it possible to include either an option to pick a specific deal from the MCM or automatically getting the crawling deal once you’re enslaved please? I’ve been dying to try that one out but the RNG gods are never in my favour. Thank you very kindly.

[Lupine00]

4 hours ago, twsnider1138 said:

or automatically getting the crawling deal once you’re enslaved please

There are no deals when you're enslaved. Deals are suspended during enslavement and resume if you buy out of slavery.

Enslaved characters must always crawl outside of dungeons, wear a collar, and wear the magic mittens.

 

Normally, those items are equipped onto you when you're enslaved.

 

 

As far as selecting deals goes. I'd like to be able to do it in Debug for testing, but I haven't had time to add such a capability.

[valcon767]

5 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

However, 2.13 will be new deals, at least spanking and introductory deals. Something like this "lifetime contract" might fit in there, along with some kind of simple mechanic for curing the weird potion. I'm currently thinking of a basic run-around quest that takes back and forth across Skyrim a bit, and requires daedra heart, red nirnroot, and an item you only get from finishing the run-around to make an antidote. Another option is less extreme ingredients, but you need to take the antidote every time the effect triggers.

ohh new deals coming..... WOOT!

 

weird potion cure ... my vote would be the run around quest.

something kind of like go to city and buy a certain item (alchemy or otherwise), 

rinse and repeat.

example

when acquiring stuff it only counts if it is acquired in the correct location.

go to Solitude and acquire white cap

go to Skall Village and acquire wheat

go to Markarth and acquire blisterwort

go to Winterhold and acquire Nord Mead

go to Falkreath and acquire glow dust

go to Shor's Stone and acquire iron ingot

go to Karthwasten and acquire silver ore

go to Riften and acquire Black Briar Mead

go to Rorikstead and acquire chicken egg

go to Windhelm and acquire potion of minor healing

go to Riverwood and acquire petty soul gem

go to Dawnstar and acquire potion of minor stamina

go to Ivarstead and acquire bread

go to Morthal and acquire minor magicka potion

go to Raven Rock and acquire flin

go to Whiterun and acquire canis root

go to Dragon Bridge and acquire ale

then it could have you get a hard to find alchemy ingredient (such as yellow mountain flower)

then have to deliver all of that to a certain npc (such as Edla out in Skall Village) who will then take them and a large sum of gold to make the cure.

(everything i used in this example is buyable other than the  Yellow Mountian Flower and the silver ore in Karthwasten {no merchants there})

 

 

[Lupine00]

3 minutes ago, valcon767 said:

everything i used in this example is buyable other than the  Yellow Mountian Flower

You can buy yellow mountain flowers in Ibn, for some reason  

You can buy red nirnroot there too, which seems a bit of a cheat.

 

But seriously, I'm not doing anything with that many steps, or making it so you must have DLC just for that.

[xboronx]

Tried the new beta yesterday, looks great.

 

Did you introduce gold weight somehow through the mod? When i have 20k gold suddenly i get overweight, seems like 10 carryweight per 1000 gold.

Also follower boredom doesn't seem to increase, i did disband my follower and then rehire it, but when i quickly advanced time by setting a high timescale while the follower charged payment as she should Lydia's boredom never increased.

 

Might start a new savegame to see if the issue persists. Or does boredom only increase if the player has low Willpower?

 

Sorry for the load of questions, thanks in advance.

[Lupine00]

7 minutes ago, xboronx said:

Did you introduce gold weight somehow through the mod?

Not on purpose.

Did you install SLS?

SLS and SL Adventures add gold weight.

 

I must remember to check for a gold weight change when I do Tes5Edit check and clean.

CK could have somehow dragged an SLS edit into DF somehow.

 

  

7 minutes ago, xboronx said:

Also follower boredom doesn't seem to increase, i did disband my follower and then rehire it, but when i quickly advanced time by setting a high timescale while the follower charged payment as she should Lydia's boredom never increased.

 

Boredom should only increase if your follower is not meeting the minimum deals requirement, and only increases once per X days as configured in the MCM.

But it's also something I need to test now you're raised it, as others have complained, and I never knew if they were expecting it to go up despite having enough deals, or whether it simply wasn't going up.

 

I've reviewed the code that raises it though. I didn't see any obvious reason it would not work last I checked.

Guess I need to check again, and test it out.

 

When I tested it originally, I used the wait action, interspersed with regular waiting so the follower could run their scripts.

[xboronx]

10 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Not on purpose.

Did you install SLS?

SLS and SL Adventures add gold weight.

 

I must remember to check for a gold weight change when I do Tes5Edit check and clean.

CK could have somehow dragged an SLS edit into DF somehow.

  

Seems SLS was the culprit. Though the MCM showed 0.000 gold weight it somehow assumed gold weight. After changing the slider again gold weigt seems gone.

 

10 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Boredom should only increase if your follower is not meeting the minimum deals requirement, and only increases once per X days as configured in the MCM.

But it's also something I need to test now you're raised it, as others have complained, and I never knew if they were expecting it to go up despite having enough deals, or whether it simply wasn't going up.

 

I've reviewed the code that raises it though. I didn't see any obvious reason it would not work last I checked.

Guess I need to check again, and test it out.

 

When I tested it originally, I used the wait action, interspersed with regular waiting so the follower could run their scripts.

 

Will try again, yesterday it didn't increase despite setting the interval to 0,5 days.

 

Edit: Doesn't increase, somehow it is stuck at 0 expected deals for my follower.

[Lupine00]

3 hours ago, xboronx said:

Edit: Doesn't increase, somehow it is stuck at 0 expected deals for my follower.

It may not increase the way you're expecting.

 

Expected deals only increases if you have more active deals than the expected deals.

 

It starts at zero, so the first time you get a deal, it can go up ... and so on.

 

It won't increase if your Will is less than 4.0

 

BUT ... assuming you have will >= 4.0, then EITHER boredom OR expected deals must go up.

It's two branches of an If Else, it's got to be one or the other...

 

Except, there's an expected deal limit... I made provision for it to be editable, though it isn't.

It defaults to 9.0 in the ESP. I thought it might be an unset property, but no, it's fine.

So, that should not be preventing your expected deals from increasing.

 

If expected deals goes up, boredom is reset.

ExpectedDeals only goes down if you get a new follower, or you are enslaved, or if you pay off slavery, or as a result of various "games",

It's remotely possible that this is happening when it shouldn't.

 

One thing, is that if you have a lot of excess deals, your timer for re-evaluation can be extended considerably.

Basically, each excess deal gives you a multiple of the boredom interval.

 

I need to confirm behavior for myself, but it was tested at one point.

[shiagwen]

Dear Lupnie

you name yourself a skyrim addict and you post in nearly every mods forum. you are really concerned that everything works well and makes fun.

 

with devious followers you made a mod that really hits the best of atmosphere and dialogue content that can be made. i love lydia but since she is the df it is really marvellous to play with her.

i interrupt short here to confirm that prostitution would be very logical and necessary to avoid extra mods for that as well as whipping. i know that only inte in pop and zaira in me sucessfully made whipping work solid.. but being a slave means geting whipped, otherwise she is just a luxury fucktoy, not a slave. 

(tip : if you doubt you can do that technically, just ask inte or zaira to do it for you, i am sure, they will )

 

however, my main point is another. i already wrote this to inte for his dde and sum and to sexlab survival, but here in your mod it is definitely the main problem.

as much as i like youir mod i had to repay all deals and break the mod, because it simply did not let me play skyrim, it is total annoying running around in wilderness and dungeons in dds.

it would be a brilliant sucess of you if you would enable all your deals and stuff at city gate when enter and disable when leaving. keep all your mod inside the cities. that is my advice to make the mod fun to play for longer than two dungeons.

thumbs up

[Richard1234]

Hi Lupine, it's great to see how you're developing this mod. Interesting mechanics. I have one request for you to consider: Would it be possible to add a rubber suit kind of deal? As far as I can tell such a deal currently doesn't exist. It would make for a nice modular deal.

For now I can change the whore armour deal to use the rubber suit ofcourse

 

Thanks for this cool mod.

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, Richard1234 said:

Hi Lupine, it's great to see how you're developing this mod. Interesting mechanics. I have one request for you to consider: Would it be possible to add a rubber suit kind of deal? As far as I can tell such a deal currently doesn't exist. It would make for a nice modular deal.

Some kind of rubber enclosure deal has been mentioned before. I like the idea, but it needs something to make it distinctive.

 

Currently, you can ask your follower for a rubber suit to wear at any time, so there is some rubber suit support, and that is why it was never added as a modular deal; it would interfere with the warm suit for Frostfall.

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, shiagwen said:

i interrupt short here to confirm that prostitution would be very logical and necessary to avoid extra mods for that as well as whipping.

I agree. But to make a prostitution that is worth using over the existing dedicated mods, it's a lot of work.

There is some lightweight prostitution in the Whore Deal, and in enslavement, but it's really more atmospheric that real prostitution.

 

There is a path to better prostitution in DF, bit by bit, but it's not something that is happening yet.

 

 

  

1 hour ago, shiagwen said:

it is total annoying running around in wilderness and dungeons in dds.

DF most of all tries not to block you from playing Skyrim too much.

If you can pay your follower, DF helps you stay out of devices, because the follower will remove some of the ones that you might get from cursed traps, etc.

 

If you can't pay your follower, DF doesn't impose deals that make it impossible to play, just ... harder.

The extreme deals are already not required in dungeons.

Even during enslavement, you can arm up and fight effectively in dungeons.

 

In DF, the main goal is to pay the follower and avoid getting into deals.

You can configure for yourself how hard this is. If you find you're getting too many deals, simply turn down the costs a bit.

 

If there are deals you feel really get in the way, disable those deals specifically.

DF doesn't impose weapon or spell limitations, so devices basically mean you can't wear armor.

If you are feeling a bit fragile, make more use of the follower to tank for you.

If your follower is useless for that, there are mods to improve follower tanking.

[shiagwen]

3 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I agree. But to make a prostitution that is worth using over the existing dedicated mods, it's a lot of work.

There is some lightweight prostitution in the Whore Deal, and in enslavement, but it's really more atmospheric that real prostitution.

 

There is a path to better prostitution in DF, bit by bit, but it's not something that is happening yet.

 

 

  

DF most of all tries not to block you from playing Skyrim too much.

If you can pay your follower, DF helps you stay out of devices, because the follower will remove some of the ones that you might get from cursed traps, etc.

 

If you can't pay your follower, DF doesn't impose deals that make it impossible to play, just ... harder.

The extreme deals are already not required in dungeons.

Even during enslavement, you can arm up and fight effectively in dungeons.

 

In DF, the main goal is to pay the follower and avoid getting into deals.

You can configure for yourself how hard this is. If you find you're getting too many deals, simply turn down the costs a bit.

 

If there are deals you feel really get in the way, disable those deals specifically.

DF doesn't impose weapon or spell limitations, so devices basically mean you can't wear armor.

If you are feeling a bit fragile, make more use of the follower to tank for you.

If your follower is useless for that, there are mods to improve follower tanking.

to avoid too much work you may take an existing prostitution mod like radiant prostituion and build a bridge to it. for example a flag that works like the innkeeper faction so the follower is the " innkeeper" = pimp for RP.  RP is the only prostitution mod that includes full working approching of clients with mcm to avoid elder clients or female clients etc. it needs atmospheric fine tuning.  solification in cursed loot  comes near to Df when the innkeeper sets a goal how much money the whore has to make and putting dds at her to give her a bonus. (but CL has no approaching, no near beds use,   innkeeper starts only if no DD weared, etc ).   TDF is the only prostitution mod with full working followers as whores,  but that would be opposite to DF, finally Maria Eden included zaz features like whipping, milk machine, pee, dog and horse, which gives ME a superiority above all other prostitution mod, but is highly instable and bugged.  so you see, to get all features possible, player has to use them all. in fact i do.

 

i have noticed that you try to avoid blocking skyrim.  you made the naked in town deal, not all naked. same could be for all dd.

( town isnt city and there are landscape areas that count as town, for example around riverwood. city gates would be better.)

 

Another problem is the gag. i like to see it, but not to use it.  set zaddialoguegagdisable to 1 works until loaded,   a mcm point would be much more user friendly.

[Lupine00]

19 minutes ago, shiagwen said:

RP is the only prostitution mod that includes full working approching of clients with mcm to avoid elder clients or female clients etc

I'm not sure about that. SWL may even be better in that area, but it lacks the quests. 

I proposed the Whore Collar for DCL, so I'm familiar with that, and I've tried all the other mods too, looking for the solution I wanted. I did not find it.

 

I think, for it to be satisfactory, a lot of things would need to change in RP; many dialogs lack a DF feel, and there's not so much point without that.

You can just use RP and pretend if you're happy with that, which is close to what I do now.