Devious Followers - Continued

[HexBolt8]

30 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

So any development of future-dominant-follower-mod, remains speculative for now.

MrEsturk is doing a bit of rework of Submissive Lola, which has dominant follower content.  He says he's doing it in a flexible way that's light on devices and will accept devices imposed by other mods.  (If Submissive Lola says you must wear a collar, but DFC is already making you wear one, you're deemed to be in compliance.)  In the past, I've been fairly successful using that mod along with this one.  With some enhancements it might be an even better pairing. 

[Lupine00]

2 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

With some enhancements it might be an even better pairing.

Submissive Lola is problematic, both in its age, its antique handling of SexLab, and its focus.

 

I would say "rather MrEsturk than me" on that one... It does have some fun chores, and past discussions have suggested how some of those things might work well with DF, but to what extent it will do that in a revised form ... let's see. It might be a mod I (personally) want to play, but not necessarily a good fit with DF. Or ... who knows? I guess my optimism is muted in that respect, but I really would like to play a refreshed SubL.

 

The main thing about SubL, is the focus: it (historically at least) is about consensual submission.

It's for a PC that goes out of their way to beg to be a slave, and continues to work at remaining one.

 

That seems to conflict with the focus of DF.

DF is about trying to not be enslaved, at least, superficially. There is at least the idea of not realizing you're on a slippery slope.

SubL is about choosing enslavement and working at it, right from the start.

You had to go to a bit of trouble just to get SubL started in its original form: go to Riften, read the book, beg your follower, etc.

 

 

Even if the mechanics mesh perfectly, the idea doesn't.

Unless... SubL is changed into a non-con mod, but as far as that goes...

 

The old directions apply: "If that's where you're headed, I wouldn't start from here."

 

Maybe, if it's going to be significantly different, it would make more sense to just create a new, fresh mod?

Personally, I'd like a sort-of-SubL style mod where you begin, alt-start, Simple Slavery auction ... you're bought by an adventurer as pack-mule.

You then have to work hard to please the adventurer, or else they will sell you off.

Being sold off essentially ends or "fails" the mod. You can reload and start over, or keep going with a normal Skyrim game however you like, but that story is over unless you start a new game.

The goal is to see where the story goes if you can overcome each hurdle your "master" places for you to make yourself useful.

 

In contrast to a few well known mods, where you are enslaved, but you can wander off and do whatever you like for as long as you like, and it's up to you to push the plot along. I'd like a mod where you have to keep up, which could potentially still lead to you playing a lot of regular Skyrim. There are some more thoughts on this on my blog comments about Trapped in Rubber. I'm not suggesting that this is the best way to do things, or that it would please everyone, but it's a route that no other mod takes.

[Lupine00]

11 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

chaos mode.  I never wanted to use it before, but now I think I might.

On this topic, I would suggest that Chaos Mode is the new way to play ALL your DF games.

 

Not in a heavy-handed way though ...

 

The "magic" of chaos mode is that you can use it to create followers that differ, and to create a bit or risk and mystery.

I don't think I would play now with zero chaos, I would always use at least some.

 

 

Here's one recipe:

 

Set variation % to 0.

Set debt-per-day and punishment-debt to have big variations.

Set everything else to 1.

 

Now, whenever you get a new follower, chaos will randomize only debt-per-day and punishment-debt.

It won't change unless you part ways with them. That "deal" with that follower has fixed terms, the next one might be different.

 

This makes it worthwhile shopping around for followers, if you are able ... trying to get a good one ... but if you get a bad one you might have a hard time getting away from them.

 

 

A different recipe:

 

Set variation % to 100.

Set everything to 1 except for initial removal cost, which has a big variation.

Now when you get trapped in devices, you don't know whether it will be trivial to get rid of them, or bank-breaking. Lots of surprise from that, but no surprises otherwise.

 

 

Clearly, there's scope for other setups.

 

While this was possible to do before, it was awkward to configure.

 

 

I did consider, and am still pondering adding, an option for Chaos so you can have Chaos randomize the Chaos settings when you hire a new follower.

Meta-chaos, if you will...

[Trill0]

I've been playing male PCs using this mod for a long time, since Lozeak was still making it.
There are a lot of extra problems using a male PC in general as most mods assume all PC are female.

It's extra work to have content for both sexes and they often don't bother.

 

5 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

I can only speak for myself, but the sissy/effeminate thing feels like a specific fetish that's not the best fit for this mod.  For me, if I played a male character the point would be being duped a smaller weaker female.  That's handy, because the derogatory terms would be similar to those for female player characters (minus gender-specific terms):  weak-willed (not physically weak), dumb, foolish, ineffective, loser, failure.

I agree. 

 

As it is now IMO the best thing to fix is probably the easiest, just patching the dialogue that still refers to a male PC as female.

As was already said, allowing the PC to limit scenes by gender would benefit everyone.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

I can only speak for myself, but the sissy/effeminate thing feels like a specific fetish that's not the best fit for this mod.  For me, if I played a male character the point would be being duped a smaller weaker female.  That's handy, because the derogatory terms would be similar to those for female player characters (minus gender-specific terms):  weak-willed (not physically weak), dumb, foolish, ineffective, loser, failure. 

 

Every player has to come to terms with suspension of disbelief in ways that work for that player.  My own longish answer below:

  Reveal hidden contents

If it helps, for me, I assume that there are no free followers.  This follower lets me pay as I go rather than wanting a large up front payment.  That sounds okay, especially at low level.  I assume that the contract itself is fairly simple, but the details are hidden.  Perhaps it refers to the Standard Agreement document on file with a hard-to-find bureaucrat.  The follower assures that it's nothing to be concerned about.  So I plausibly get duped into the relationship. 

 

The tricky part is agreeing to the deals.  Fortunately, if you use classic deals they start out deceptively easy and are not that humiliating.  As time goes on, the DF has been undermining my character's confidence, and it's harder to say no to that next step. 

 

I assume that the DF is well connected with governing officials and the guards, and maybe has dabbled in slave trading in the past.  If I balk, the DF threatens to use those connections.  The authorities will side with the DF, who promises that my life will be miserable if I go to prison.  I might never get out.  Records could be lost.  Or I might end up at the slave market with false papers.  "Every slave claims to be a free man.  Stop telling such lies."

 

My personal sticking point was, why doesn't my character leave when debt & deals are paid off?  Contract terms and the new expensive deals help make sure that doesn't happen.  While waiting for 2.12, I was playing around with loans.  That's not in the mod, but it's easy to add a loan amount to the current debt, and the DF only asks that that the PC agree to a contract extension, just a week or two to allow enough time to pay back the loan (role playing that last part, manually extending the remaining time).  By the time the deals get intense, the contract term is long enough that I probably won't be able to go that long before falling back into debt.  I might also manually apply term extensions to obtaining extra gold under gold control to work that angle too.

 

That's my own answer to why.  Maybe there are ideas in there that you can use for your own rationalization.

 

I have come to the conclusion that what I am looking for isn't actually enslavement. But rather something a little more playful. I like the idea of "deals" or losing a bet so to speak. But it doesn't come from a place of malice or hardcore exploitation on the follower's part, where the follower actually cares for the player character with a level of trust between them. That said, there won't be any missing of opportunities to have a little fun at the PC's expense whenever possible. Even if it means the follower subtlety fabricating such situations and innocently standing by while the PC manages to get themselves into a "bind".

 

There are a few mods that can work with this concept if they could be fused together to work that way....

 

For example....a rough idea might be using Devious helpers in conjunction with Pet Collar.

 

If a proper synergy between these mods could be worked out, they could create some basic scenarios. Such as a dialogue framework mod. (One would need to be created for that I think)

[donttouchmethere]

6 minutes ago, bishlapped said:

For example....a rough idea might be using Devious helpers in conjunction with Pet Collar.

You mean if the PC gets into a pet collar that removes all clothes/food/items and shock her close to death if she tries to wear something, while everyone in Skyrim rapes her, is "to have a little fun"? ?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, donttouchmethere said:

You mean if the PC gets into a pet collar that removes all clothes/food/items and shock her close to death if she tries to wear something, while everyone in Skyrim rapes her, is "to have a little fun"? ?

Can't those functions be turned off interdependently? So the collar can just be set to provide service for NPCs? The idea is that Helpers stops at locking the player up. But why should the follower allow that opportunity to go to waste? So Helpers puts you in the collar, then, because you are bound up, the follower gets to have a little fun.

Even still, It's a rough idea. They still don't integrate well enough to really do that well. and then there is the (not so) working dialogue.

 

But overall, what you are saying is correct. They don't work well enough together.

 

[donttouchmethere]

1 hour ago, bishlapped said:

But overall, what you are saying is correct. They don't work well enough together.

Uhm, sorry, I'm just a bit baffled by all those soft approaches to consensual "enslavement" that end in brutal fun.

I just brutally jump into a conversation I didn't followed.

 

That said, ME had good approaches related to Sub Dom relationships (no, not compared to the ones in reality).

Means over time the Dom gets softer and a more emotional setting is added (minimal tho ?)

 

Normally everything "enslaved" in Skyrim is harsh and doesn't progress in any way. It just will stay harsh.

Interesting would be some "relationship" progress over time that binds the player to those sadistic followers, instead of thinking how long the player has to endure them.

 

Now that I write that I think I understand what you mean. Some kind of more playful approach. ?

The kick from a devious Skyrim still is that unrealistic things are allowed  ?

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, donttouchmethere said:

Uhm, sorry, I'm just a bit buffed by all those soft approaches to consensual "enslavement" that end in brutal fun.

I just brutally jump into a conversation I didn't followed.

 

That said, ME had good approaches related to Sub Dom relationships (no, not compared to the ones in reality).

Means over time the Dom gets softer and a more emotional setting is added (minimal tho ?)

 

Normally everything "enslaved" in Skyrim is harsh and doesn't progress in any way. It just will keep harsh.

Interesting would be some "relationship" progress over time that binds the player to those sadistic followers, instead of thinking how long the player has to endure them.

 

Now that I write that I think I understand what you mean. Some kind of more playful approach. ?

The kick in a devious Skyrim still is that unrealistic things are allowed  ?

My inclusion of DD based mods was a bad idea to begin with. I just picked them as an example...albeit a bad example.....

 

But take the idea of forced public nudity....A playful approach would be like....

 

(Assuming you are using some kind of survival mod where you need to sleep at regular intervals, and while out in the open)

 

You see a message alert saying...."You are awakened to the sound of screaming" "It's your follower". Your follower is yelling about how some "wolf just ran off with our supplies" Of course, by "our supplies" it means "Your armor". You catch up to the follower who says "Some hunters just killed and looted the wolf" They took off that way". So now you are on a wild goose chase, naked. Was there ever really a wolf aside form the one in sheep's clothing? ......You get the idea.

[donttouchmethere]

51 minutes ago, bishlapped said:

You get the idea.

? yes!

I also already can imagine how I fiddle nervously with the Frostfall spells while cursing and running back to the campfire ?

[Lupine00]

58 minutes ago, donttouchmethere said:

That said, ME had good approaches related to Sub Dom relationships (no, not compared to the ones in reality).

Means over time the Dom gets softer and a more emotional setting is added (minimal tho ?)

 

Normally everything "enslaved" in Skyrim is harsh and doesn't progress in any way. It just will keep harsh.

Interesting would be some "relationship" progress over time that binds the player to those sadistic followers, instead of thinking how long the player has to endure them.

This was a part of Sex Slaves - Mia's Lair - Dominant Andrew, but it made Andrew a bit of a bi-polar personality. One minute he'd be all lovey-dovey, the next he'd be complaining you hadn't offered him enough sex, or worse, going mental because some NPC raped you, which would be your fault.  The execution exactly quite polished, but it had a good try.

[donttouchmethere]

31 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

This was a part of Sex Slaves - Mia's Lair - Dominant Andrew, but it made Andrew a bit of a bi-polar personality. One minute he'd be all lovey-dovey, the next he'd be complaining you hadn't offered him enough sex, or worse, going mental because some NPC raped you, which would be your fault.  The execution exactly quite polished, but it had a good try.

You just want to trick me into playing Mia's Lair again

I must admit I never played the Andrew content of Mia's Lair

For some reason I was mostly busy - for hours - to whip some poor girls hanging from the ceiling before feeding them dry bread ? 

(although they rock in combat after that ?)

[Buridan]

14 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

Every player has to come to terms with suspension of disbelief in ways that work for that player. 

I like imagining some sort of personal connection pushing a slightly naive PC towards a disadvantageous contract in the beginning. Like maybe she has a little crush on the handsome bard or battlemage, or sees the old spellsword as kind of a surrogate father figure, so she doesn't look too closely at the proposed agreement, and it doesn't become apparent to her that the follower is Devious until she's in too deep.

[HexBolt8]

2 hours ago, Buridan said:

I like imagining some sort of personal connection pushing a slightly naive PC towards a disadvantageous contract in the beginning.

Yes!  I've done that too.  The PC might start out attracted to and/or admiring the confidence & poise of an NPC, and be delighted that this person agrees to join forces.  That fits very well with confidence undermining by the DF, because the PC likes and respects that person.  My other favorite starting scenario is being in a jam, such as getting locked in a device that's too difficult to escape, and a friendly NPC offers to loan the money to pay a blacksmith, and accompany you until you can repay the loan (with interest and daily payments, did I mention that?)

 

5 hours ago, bishlapped said:

something a little more playful. I like the idea of "deals" or losing a bet so to speak.

DFC can still help there if you limit the deals, and there's the gambling part, as well as gold control where the DF messes with how much gold you can have.  DD Helpers seems to best fit what you want, but there's not much content in that area besides being tied up.  You're correct, the punitive parts of Pet Collar can be turned off.  Maybe you just want the follower to control holding all the stuff and having to ask for what you need.  (I personally found the pet bag feature to be too disruptive, but it's an interesting idea.)

[abode]

I really like this mod but have been having a little trouble with it. For one, I can't seem to make any money as my character can't really do much with their arms bound or sell stuff with some gags. I've tried buying off the deal which required a gag but the follower adds to my debt after a while when I don't have it on. The follower still seems to want 500 gold to actually follow me so I can't really use it to fight for me. Additionally, sometimes I don't know where my follower is (I've used the debug menu to jump right into this mod to test and promptly get lost)

[HexBolt8]

24 minutes ago, abode said:

I really like this mod but have been having a little trouble with it.

It sounds like you recruited a vanilla follower, the kind that wants 500 gold up front.  This mod works better with followers added by mods (as long as they use the vanilla follower system, not their own built-in follower framework).  The console command "set zadDialogueGagDisable to 1" should allow you to talk to merchants if that's ruining your game.  If your arms are bound, a prostitution mod would offer a way to make money in town.

[abode]

Awesome, Thanks hexbolt. I do have some other follower mods so that likely could have been the issue. I've been setting this up a lot with the debug commands to test it out first so no doubt something went wrong along the way. Also the temporary workaround for dialog would definitely be helpful since my level 1 character isn't very good at making money right now

[HexBolt8]

2.12 Alpha Feedback

 

Spoiler

Bugs

 

Costs page.  Daily Debt Modifiers % increase per day.  Default is 5% but the slider goes from 0-1%.  I think you wanted 0-100%.  Selecting the max value results in 1%, with no way to get back up to 5%.

 

I assume that this is a bug (I've been away from the mod for a while):  Modular Deals page.  Number of deals can only be increased, never decreased, even with all classic deals enabled and no deals active.  Modular deals are not displayed to be enabled/disabled. 

 

Wording

 

Classic Deals page.  Under Ownership, the toggles are "Owned" and "Stage 3 Denial".  For consistency and reduced confusion, it would  be better if "Owned" were "Stage 3 Owned".  Unless I've forgotten how this deal works.  This might seem trivial, but never underestimate the ability for players to be confused. 

 

Feature Tweak Suggestion

 

Limited Willpower Gain.  There's a toggle, which isn't very informative or flexible.  How about adding a percentage slider for when the toggle is on?  At 100%, limited willpower gain will restore full willpower if there are no deals or devices.  But having deals or devices reduces the recovered amount.  Set this slider lower to make things harder.  That's fairly intuitive.  With the slider, the player would have a better feel for the maximum possible willpower gain.  Full restoration seems too generous, but what do I get if I check that toggle?  It's a mystery (the maximum possible gain, not the concept) and the player might not care for whatever that hard-wired maximum gain is. 

 

[Lupine00]

5 hours ago, abode said:

Awesome, Thanks hexbolt. I do have some other follower mods so that likely could have been the issue. I've been setting this up a lot with the debug commands to test it out first so no doubt something went wrong along the way. Also the temporary workaround for dialog would definitely be helpful since my level 1 character isn't very good at making money right now

You can set the prices lower so that things are easier.

The vanilla "hirelings", such as Jenessa will always expect 500 to hire, they're not well supported. They seemed OK when I used them, but some people have problems. I suspect those are caused by interactions with another mod, but it's never been established which mods cause problems.

 

If you use add followers you add via a mod, as long as it's not Inigo or something, they should work reliably.

[Lupine00]

2 minutes ago, HexBolt8 said:

I assume that this is a bug (I've been away from the mod for a while):  Modular Deals page.  Number of deals can only be increased, never decreased, even with all classic deals enabled and no deals active.  Modular deals are not displayed to be toggled on/off.  Shouldn't they be?

This isn't what I see. Puzzling.

[HexBolt8]

4 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

This isn't what I see. Puzzling.

I'm seeing this (below).  It looks like MDC.DealsBuilt isn't getting initialized, but I can't tell because I'm missing some source files and I can't compile the script to add a debug statement.

 

Spoiler

 

[HexBolt8]

I'll be up for a little longer.  If you have a debug script you'd like me to try running, I'm happy to do that.

[Lupine00]

Thanks for the feedback...

  

3 minutes ago, HexBolt8 said:

I assume that this is a bug (I've been away from the mod for a while):  Modular Deals page.  Number of deals can only be increased, never decreased, even with all classic deals enabled and no deals active.  Modular deals are not displayed to be toggled on/off.  Shouldn't they be?

This sounds odd. There are no changes here from 2.11

 

Originally, if  you had a deal you could not edit modular deals AT ALL.

In 2.11 I made it so you can still enable more if you have a deal already, but not disable deals.

 

That entire modular deals page is a menu of deals to enable/disable.

If you have a deal, it should say so on that page too. The stats page summarizes things, but you can't edit on the stats page, by design.

 

You say you have no deals active, but it is acting like you have a deal.

 

Is it a new game, or an update?

  

3 minutes ago, HexBolt8 said:

Limited Willpower Gain.  There's a toggle, which isn't very informative or flexible.  How about adding a percentage slider for when the toggle is on?  At 100%, limited willpower gain will restore full willpower if there are no deals or devices.  But having deals or devices reduces the recovered amount.  Set this slider lower to make things harder.  That's fairly intuitive.  With the slider, the player would have a better feel for the maximum possible willpower gain.  Full restoration seems too generous, but what do I get if I check that toggle?  It's a mystery (the maximum possible gain, not the concept) and the player might not care for whatever that hard-wired maximum gain is. 

A fair suggestion, but will leave it for now. The original change to add limited restore was a little controversial at the time. 2.X had introduced the idea of full restores for every sleep, and it wasn't clear whether that was wrong or right. A single way to adjust this would be better, but the mechanic as implemented has no way to do that.

 

I can definitely do this better, but for now I'm sticking to making sure what is in works, and adding spanking.

[Lupine00]

17 minutes ago, HexBolt8 said:

I'm seeing this (below).  It looks like MDC.DealsBuilt isn't getting initialized, but I can't tell because I'm missing some source files and I can't compile the script to add a debug statement.

Yes, clearly corrupt.

Is this only in a new game?

 

If you take a deal, does it magically fix itself?

[HexBolt8]

5 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

You say you have no deals active, but it is acting like you have a deal.

 

Is it a new game, or an update?

New game.  I had 2.11 installed but not activated.  I installed 2.12 alpha and activated the mod for the first time in this game.

 

I already had a follower.  Is that a problem?  After activating this mod, the follower had the [Click Me] dialog.  Great!  But the Modular Deals page was mostly blank (as in the screenshot) before and after clicking Click Me.