Chivalry is Dead?

[KoolHndLuke]

I love women. I mean I adore most things about them. I was taught growing up that I should hold the door for women, pull their chair for them at dinner, give my seat up on a bus or in a crowded place- that kind of thing. Up until 10 or 15 years ago, this kind of treatment of women by men was still halfway expected. Now, when a man tries to honor this tradition and show his affection, some women reject it and possibly berate the man for it. They reject it because they want to be treated as equals- not put on a pedestal and regarded as a prize. At least I think that's the reason.

 

So does this mean that the relationship between men and women have been completely redefined? I'm feeling a bit lost and outdated or redundant as a man. Is romance still a thing? 

 

Are ladies and gentlemen gone for good? Should they be?

[Corsayr]

Just now, KoolHndLuke said:

Are ladies and gentlemen gone for good?

no, but...

 

You have to understand that there is a small subsection of men who when they perform these acts of chivalry believe it earns them certain "privileges", and some women have found life to be a lot easier to simply refuse the services than get into a protracted confrontation.

 

Gentlemanly behavior is not a bad thing, there are plenty of groups that need extra consideration and will greatly appreciate it. The elderly, and people with small children will usually appreciate a seat on a bus.

 

and there is never anything wrong with the offer of holding a door or giving up a seat, just know that if she declines it isn't personal.   

 

 

[KoolHndLuke]

44 minutes ago, Corsayr said:

You have to understand that there is a small subsection of men who when they perform these acts of chivalry believe it earns them certain "privileges"

Hmmmm....... seems sorta like harmless flirting to me. But those types of men usually expect certain "privileges" from women to begin with. I just hold the door to be nice and maybe get a smile. It is a way for people to acknowledge each other and say "hey"- like the old person you otherwise might ignore because you are in a hurry. Those little thank yous and smiles help to brighten a person's day I think.

[Kuunkulta]

It's really nice when guys open the door for me. It brightens the day for both and as a transwoman I find it very validating as well which just widens my smile even more ?

[GrimReaper]

I hold open the door for a short time for anyone that walks behind me. On the other hand, I fully expect adult humans to be able to pull up a chair for themselves or to get out of whatever they're wearing.

[Dojo_dude]

I did THIS - So I 'deserve' that! Hmmm.... yeah, those are old views. It can be shocking to realize they've gone. Like a good edition of an RPG.

[Corsayr]

12 minutes ago, GrimReaper said:

I fully expect adult humans to be able to pull up a chair for themselves

Ya, I think you can safely consign "helping people with their chair" to history, where it probably was more necessary due to the type of clothing women wore. Those poofy skirts make it hard to actually find the edges of the chair to grab em yourself. ?

 

You could try it on a date... But all the times it has been done for me, I sort of felt like it fell in the "trying too hard" category. Which can be cute, but generally unnecessary. ?

 

Situational awareness is probably the watchword if you are on a date or some kind of formal event where she is wearing something that might make simple acts like pulling up your own chair challenging... give it a shot. 

[27X]

Treat everyone as an individual, and if they feel a need to express their outrage in such a trivial situation as entering or exiting a building, simply stop doing what you're doing in that instance. As with most situations up to and including this forum, the loudest and most fervent are often abjectly full of shit, and spending any time in their sphere of self imposed misery will be time you'll never be able to get back.

[DrMojoDoc]

Well, the thing about chivalry being a harmless flirting might be the issue then. They decline it because they perceive it as flirting or even unwanted advance, although it is a bona fide act of goodwill for you. 

Some people just don't like to be flirted. Some people like to be flirted but not by you (you as in generic you).

It's quite maddening for me too. It's like we are all dancing on different tunes. I do it as act of kindness, but others take it as act of aggression and vice versa. 

I just try to maintain professional courtesy to everyone, and that's about all I do these days.

[FauxFurry]

Feudal monarchies are defunct so there is no government who enforces this code of honor between knights and nobles.

[PenBoozerX]

I've never been one for these manners. My mom hated "chivalrous" acts when pointed at her, so I just never learned them and didn't understand why it was considered such an etiquette move since the the most influential woman in my early life always detested it. She taught me to keep the door open for *everyone* who came after me or was trying to pass simultaneously though, she did the same for everyone as well. Giving up seats was polite for those with kids and the elderly, she never thought me to give up a seat for a girl, so I never did. Sliding a chair for someone is something I've never done and probably never will do. A lot of this just comes from how you were thought to behave I guess, not everyone likes it.

 

I do agree little things like holding a door for someone and getting a simple smile or "thanks" is very uplifting. Even the rare occasion when someone holds a door to me is very flattering even for a dude I find.

[Chbaakal]

I do these acts not to flirt, but out of consideration for others. If someone doesn't 'get it', then they're ignored for the duration of our contact. If the offended (?) person is confrontational about it, I just say, 'What, I can't be nice to a fellow human being? Guess I'd better find someone else to be considerate to......see ya.....'

 

[Kendo 2]

Prior to 2015 I was an old school gentleman.  Now younger women are invisible unless I know them.  I don't hold the door for them, surrender my seat in waiting areas, etc.  BUT for the women I know the old rules still apply, and I'm still courteous to older (40+) women.  My contempt for younger women is mostly political (they're probably Liberal); and small part is social (Instagram attention whores and blue-haired feminists).  They aren't worthy of my consideration since they think men are either walking wallets or the evil enemy.  It's the world they wanted, or thought they wanted.

[Resdayn]

Yeah it is pretty much dead in my generation, people can do those things themselves there anyway. 

 

Man who do it in my generation is a certain group wich can put big ass strain to it, so not really attractive thing do. ?‍♀️ 

 

You probably have better luck women in your generation with those things, than younger ones.

 

[V The Heretic]

Chivalry isn't dead. Respect is dead.

[2dk2c.2]

4 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

I love women. I mean I adore most things about them. I was taught growing up that I should hold the door for women, pull their chair for them at dinner, give my seat up on a bus or in a crowded place- that kind of thing. Up until 10 or 15 years ago, this kind of treatment of women by men was still halfway expected. Now, when a man tries to honor this tradition and show his affection, some women reject it and possibly berate the man for it. They reject it because they want to be treated as equals- not put on a pedestal and regarded as a prize. At least I think that's the reason.

 

So does this mean that the relationship between men and women have been completely redefined? I'm feeling a bit lost and outdated or redundant as a man. Is romance still a thing? 

 

Are ladies and gentlemen gone for good? Should they be?

Are generations getting shorter? I wonder (but I'm very bad at math).

Some are very good at chivalry, most are awkward as hell and put on a little show.

The ones that are good at it, not drawing attention, reserving it for the right situations, are heroes whatever their gender.

And drivers.

And postmen

and pizza delivery people.

But if you're narrowing your scope to only talk of women deserving

or men offering (OK, I just realized, this is a thread that kills time...)

no.

Not dead.

I've been the recipient of chivalrous acts since I was 5. It saved my butt sometimes.

Maybe, men standing when a woman sits, or is that some vestige of military behavior.

 

[Corsayr]

Just as a mild clarification (to my way of thinking, anyway) of the three general acts being discussed.

 

Holding the Door:

 

There are two variations of this act

 

The first briefly holding the door open as you pass through so that the person behind you can grab the door in an open state, and the door isn't shutting in their face. This is a socially required minimal level of acceptable behavior and everyone should be doing this for everyone else. ? The only exception being people who may not physically be able to hold a door open from that vantage point. (older people, injured, etc)

 

The second is more of what I think of when asked about a man holding the door for a lady, and that is when the man stands to the side of the door holding it open and allowing the woman to pass through first. This is a bit more personal, and for the most part, should not be controversial but as I mentioned before women these days need to be careful of the 1/1000 dude who is doing it for less than admirable reasons. A lot of focus of the discussion is placed on those rare instances when clearly, that is not the norm. If you feel like you want to do this because you enjoy being helpful to others there should not be a problem, and if you get push back about doing it just simply say, "as you wish, have a nice a day." smile and move on. The pushback probably had nothing to do with you. 

 

Helping someone with their chair:

 

I already kind of mentioned my thoughts, it is generally a very situational thing. 

 

Offering your seat:

 

I can sum up every instance of me accepting an offered seat in one line. 

 

"I was wearing heels"

 

Other than that I usually say something like, "I'm good, thank you." Which is likely what most people would say (even guys) if someone offered them their seat. 

 

[Visio Diaboli]

My rule of thumb is I don’t ever go out of my way for anyone, unless I already know them and respect or appreciate them enough to warrant doing so. 

 

Personally I (male for clarification) can’t stand when strangers (or even peole I just don’t regularly communicate with) go even slightly out of their way to perform some kind of courtesy. I don’t want to feel an obligation to thank people for doing insignificant things, which is the culture I feel these things inspire, and thus wouldn’t want anyone else to feel that obligation either. 

 

Though this comes from a pessimist and introvert. So take it for what it is I guess XD.

[Captain Cobra]

Chivalry is Dead (And millennials killed it) (And that's a good thing)

[Sceadugengan]

Personally I've never been taught to treat women as special.

I guess it differs from country to country but in general "gentlemanly acts" are in decline and it's better this way - I welcome gentlemen going extinct.

It just means your gender doesn't matter as much anymore.

[gregathit]

Things do change, I acknowledge that, however, not all change is good.

As for myself, I still adhere to the chivalric code.  If that offends someone, fuck'em.  I'm not changing who I am for anyone.  I'm not asking others to change, so I won't tolerate them demanding I change.  Just like I won't ever be PC or any of that other shit.  

[KoolHndLuke]

So what happens in a society that does not follow the Code of Chivalry or something like it? Unchivalrous is defined as being impolite, ill mannered, disrespectful, dishonorable, selfish, arrogant, inconsiderate, unsympathetic, cowardly, etc. Instead of opening a door for you, people will slam it in your face because you're not worthy of respect or consideration any more as a fellow human being. You are a potential mark.

 

But, almost all heroes or heroines from every book or movie I have ever read or viewed follows the chivalric code. They protect the old and the weak and children. Of course they get fucked sometimes by unscrupulous villains because of this code, but they keep their dignity.

 

Now maybe girls don't want to be princesses any more and boys don't want to be heroes. Maybe boys want to be princesses and girls want to be heroes. Maybe they want to be each other or neither. Maybe they want to be everyone or no one at all. It doesn't matter because there will always be some code of conduct. It just won't be as idealistic and naive as chivalry perhaps is. But it will be much colder and less humanitarian I think.

[porkybork]

I can't make any comment on the "giving up your seat for someone else" thing since reliable public transportation isn't really a thing on the west coast, but I can talk about the doors thing. Most people I know and have interacted with have no problem holding doors open for other people, whether it be pushing the door open for the person behind them as they walk through or going the full 9 yards are holding the door open for people. And, people are usually quite thankful for those who do that. In fact, most people would consider it incredibly rude to not do that.

Now, you may say "oh, so you must have a lot of old-fashioned people where you live, right?" No. At least not entirely. The area I live in has a pretty diverse population, we've got people from several different backgrounds living in my area. We don't do this type of stuff because we're "chivalrous" or "old-fashioned" or anything like that, we do it because it's common courtesy. It doesn't matter who you are or who the other person is, you hold the door for them. This isn't medieval Europe and we're not knights working for our lords, we're regular people trying to get by with what we've got. What you call a chivalric code, we call basic human decency. Everyone is expected to do it. Man, woman, child, white, black, hispanic, asian, conservative, liberal, socialist, democrat, republican, independent, right-wing, left-wing, cis, trans, straight, gay, bi, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, atheist, purple, muffin, werewolf, it doesn't matter. That's the beauty of the Golden Rule, it involves everyone. Chivalry is restricted to medieval knights and dudes who read too many fantasy novels ?

As for getting someone's chair for them, yeah, nobody does that unless the other person is disabled or old or something. Otherwise, nobody really cares. The general attitude towards that is basically, "they have arms, they can do it themselves."

 

Also, LOL at all the people using this thread as an excuse to bitch about politics.

[Guest]

 the word usage may have changed,opening the door for a women or the elderly,giving up your seat for a women or aged person to me is simply the decent thing to do,I did however get a nasty wake up call after i tried to help someone in a wheelchair and they actually went off at me,perhaps i understand that one,but it costs nothing to do the decent and polite thing without doing it just so you can say " see what i did aren't i a great person "

 

Society is changing so fast now though it's getting hard just to keep up with certain social do's and don'ts

[Kendo 2]

2 hours ago, porkybork said:

LOL at all the people using this thread as an excuse to bitch about politics.

LOL that you're pretending Liberal antics have nothing to do with the abandonment of traditional values, like chivalry.  And people don't need an 'excuse' to laugh about the state of politics in the Western World; the totalitarian Left provides all the ammunition required.  They're comedy gold without even trying.