Will55 Posted January 18, 2022 Posted January 18, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: Once in a while, one/some of my slaves will just disappear visually. They're still there, just invisible. Reloading the game usually fixes it. Any idea what's up with that? ........That has been the norm for ages in my game...if you prid, moveto player or player.moveto, they are often standing next to you and it is cell NPC graphics overload I am told. How exactly is sex refusal determined? It seems like it depends on sex training? That seems like a weird design choice, both in terms of realism and just gameplay frustration. It seems like a slave with 100 submission should seldom if ever refuse sex, even if she's a virgin. .............SLEN seems dominant here as if they hate you no amount of experience will make them welcome you and even if you do not use SLEN the effect is still there. FemaleSultry slaves are seriously overplaying "Let me go. I won't say anyting." Or maybe it's specific to it being Alva (unique Morthal vampire). I don't have a stable of FemaleSultry slaves to test, but Alva spams the heck out of that line. .............I have Alva with almost all high stats and she is almost meek and mild but if you drag her around you get the odd incisive comment. In the playthrough I just concluded, I was getting some strange behaviour where one slave always follows the PC much more closely than the rest. It isn't always the same slave—if I leave her somewhere, the "extra close follower" role seems to get handed off to another. She'll frequently come running up to the stationary PC, push her half a metre, react to being too close, back away, then back so far away that she comes running up again, and the cycle repeats. It's like having a Yorkie terrier that won't stop humping your leg. I never figured out a cause, but it hasn't reappeared in the playthrough I just started yet. ............never had that and I have never had to change the MCM distance between followers/slaves. My biggest problem: the nymphomaniac followers who cannot walk anywhere with an all too often nooky stop. Silly little bug! If you take a Thalmor slave into the Thalmor headquarters in Solitude, they'll be sorta semi-hostile. ............IIRC I tried to sell( or maybe I even did sell) a Thalmor soldier to them. Never noticed anything but that does not mean it did not happen Respectful slaves should really not be making the reproachful vanilla comments—e.g., "What are you doing that for?!"—whenever you jostle some clutter items. Don't know if that's even fixable, but if it is, it'd be a big improvement! ...........That really annoys me as does "Watch it!" from +4 SLEN >60+ respect 100 sub/pose/sex/ slaves Sometimes, "You'll now address me as a slave should," is eliciting a "Yes..." but then offering punishment in place of the second half of the dialogue; subsequently, the slave is in "respectful mode". ...........Punishing them before you say this is the best way of gaining respect IMO I know I've mentioned this before in the DoM thread, but Troll didn't have any ideas, and I don't think I've mentioned it to you. Do you see any way to prevent slaves from dancing to bards? I know I can get mods to make bards not sing, but I actually like the bards. I just don't think it's very good slave behaviour to forget their training and start dancing every time—unless I can punish them for it. And, worse, it causes strange telekinetic cup behaviour and detached limbs if they happen to be wearing cuffs, armbinders, or straitjackets. .................why would you want to stop slaves from dancing? At most you could forbid it by ordering them if that could be implemented but ceasing it totally is way OTT. My char is a bard with well over 130 inn performances and I love to see them dance. Is there any way to prevent slaves from picking up random weapons? I almost exclusively keep mage slaves so I don't have to worry about it, but I'd like to be able to have slaves fight unarmed without having to put them in straitjackets to prevent them constantly grabbing weapons. On a related note, how hard would it be to make a feature/extension/patch to be able to teach slaves Bound Weapon skills—and have them actually use them. Basically, it's really weird-looking having scabbards hanging off of naked slaves when they equip non-conjured weapons. ................Seeing as such slaves have saved my char's **** several times by picking up weapons and fighting (one used a pick very well) I cannot see why you don't remove the weapons yourself if it worries you. One had a very nice enchanted glass sword: the first one I had seen in this playthrough. As she was 2H I gave her an orc battle axe for it. Is there any way we could have the ability to export/import a few slaves? i.e., When you "export", the slave's appearance, inventory, and stats would be saved to a configuration file, and the slave would be removed from your game. When you "import", an identical new copy of that slave would be created—potentially in a different save game! You'd probably want to limit this to a maximum of 3–5 slaves or else it could quickly get out of hand, lol. ..........................I have not tried it but possibly Proteus( standard or modified) could do this. Implementing it into PAH would be overkill and difficult IMHO ADDED: How hard would it be to create a patch/add-on to be able to teach slaves "bound weapon" spells and get them to use them in combat? ...........I teach followers or slaves, spells via proteus and by the use of the given destruction spells and conjured creatures I know that they use some of them although not all of them ( I always give them restoration spells but am yet to see them used while any ironflesh/ward etc. spell and any lighting spell is often used) I have to confiscate torches as they use them always it seems in dungeons destroying stealth but they only occasionally use the light spells although i have had to remove these spells at times. I give them the spells via proteus but have never bothered with bound spells for them as I always equip them myself with skill suited gear when on the road. SO I have no idea if they would use them BUT having said that, IFF they have the skill and it is high and they have no or a far lesser weapon, then they might well use them IMO. Extra: I might try bound weapons via proteus to see if they work just for the hell of it. These are what I have found in my current playthrough and are obviously all, in my opinion only, and not necessarily kosher. Edited January 18, 2022 by Will55
narbzhikaru Posted January 18, 2022 Posted January 18, 2022 18 hours ago, Martok73 said: They always attack on sight, and as Will suggested you can enslave her and watch what happens, it's kinda funny. however I have noticed on a few different play thrus that if Mona is accidentally hit during the fight with the slavers she will bug out and won't talk to you. If you leave render range or change cells and come back she should still be there and should talk to you then. That worked for me a couple times but not 100%. She however is part of the questline that will lead to stopping the slaver actions of npcs depending on your responses to her during her dialog after the fight with the slavers. I have noticed several things with your load order. One you do not need both MYiYH dialog patches active, the only one you need is the second one, you don't need the 2plus one so you can disable it. You have quit a few mods that will have conflicts and overwrite some things with each other as well. I suggest running xedit and apply the filter to show conflicts then start at the bottom and go thru each one and decide which mod you want to win that conflict by creating an override in a patch for that specific record. I would also suggest checking a guide on youtube or one of the guides here on LL on making a merged patch and a bashed patch via wrye bash. Those will help with alot of conflicts as well as merge some records for leveled lists and keywords to make things play nice together. Once you have those patches I would again go into xedit and check conflicts and look thru the patches to make sure that the mods you want to win the conflicts actually do so in the patches. I know all that sounds complicated and it can be a little bit, and it can take several hours or a few days depending on if you take your time and go slow to minimize mistakes. But once you have your merged, bashed, and any override patch you manually make finished and loading last in your load order, you will noticed a much more stable game and you will find things from your mods that you didn't know were there because of those conflicts. I know it's a PITA but it's worth it in my opinion. I currently have just under 500 active mods with over 400 active plugins and I couldn't live without my merge, bashed and custom override patches. I would also suggest after making all your patches to get the script lag tester mod and install and run it in a short test session in several high traffic areas of your game and around slaves/slavers and the restless hunter inn during an auction. Doing this will for sure let you know if it's bugging out due to script overload which I'm almost positive that is the reason for it. IMHO if the mod shows above 100 it's too much, anything below 80 is golden. Once you have everything done and you have done all your testing, if the slave auctions in the restless hunter inn still doesn't work and the script lag tester shows 80 or less during the auction (while pardo is standing at the podium), the only way I can think of at that point to fix it is to do a complete uninstall of HSH, make a "clean save", clean that save via resaver, make another save in game, then install HSH again. That will remove and replace any fucked up scripts in the mod for sure, but I'd do that as a last resort after doing everything else I mentioned previously. Hope this helps and good luck. I've enslaved her and Merian both a few times, but I've had Mona mysteriously die for absolutely no reason at all before as well. Had both sisters in one of my outdoor camps and while I was off on the other side of the map I got a message in the corner of my screen saying that Mona had died, no reason for the death given, just that she died. NPCs are not supposed to be able to die if they are not rendered in the game as technically they are "frozen" in a kind of suspended animation type thing. They don't move, interact, nothing, so I'm stumped as to how the hell she suddenly died. Now I know that if slaves are below a certain sub level in an outdoor camp that is not guarded they will escape, but that camp was guarded by a massively OP Geared follower, so even if the npcs were moving around interacting with the world the camp was protected. Maybe she died from exposure cause she was naked after all, LOL. Now I know what you're thinking, "but how do NPCs kill dragons if you step inside a building during a dragon attack?", simple, when the dragon appears, step inside any building causing a loading screen, then wait one hour via the wait menu, and when you step outside the dragon will be dead or gone, reason it's scripted that way. If the game did not put npcs into "hibernation" while out of the players render range, the script load on the game would cause it to not run at all and instantly crash, which is also the reason vampire attacks only happen when you fast travel to a city or town and never "off screen". But I've gotten way off topic as we were talking about enslaving Merian and Mona during that part of the HSH Slave questline, which enslaving both of them will progress the quest further in the direction of being able to hold auctions with Pardo so that's a plus. There is a note on one of the slavers you kill, and there are some things around the camp there to loot and a journal I think, been awhile, but yeah, that's how to progress the quest if she won't talk to you, just enslave her and then loot everything and read all the notes and journals. That's an issue with MCM and a known bug that sometimes MCM menus don't appear correctly and are blank/empty. There used to be a mod on the nexus that supposedly fixed that bug but I can't remember the name of it off the top of my head. I've had it happen a few times and how I've fixed it was to go to another menu for another mod and change one setting and exit the MCM back into the game, then make a hard save, exit game, then restart and load the save I previously made, give the game a couple minutes without doing anything just standing still, then open the MCM and the bugged menu would be fixed. I'd of course change back the setting from the other mod I made to trigger the MCM refresh then proceed to setup the menu of the mod that was bugged. In short as long as everything shows up in game and the enslave menu is appearing when interacting with a bleeding out target the mod is in fact working, just your menu and those options are bugged and the MCM has to be refreshed. Hope this helps . So I removed the YHiMH2 patch and it caused one of my other mods to stop working but its fine because afterwards I reactivated after being able to complete the mission like you said, but I would like to know where you are getting these numbers from like 80 or whatever you are saying from script load? Is there a program I should be using to detect this?
CliftonJD Posted January 20, 2022 Author Posted January 20, 2022 On 1/12/2022 at 7:19 AM, Killeer said: Hello, I am still on 8.0.2 just asking if the problem I found can be fix by updating to newer version or the problem is from somewhere else I have Jarl Elisif as slave. She supposed to be super weak but I left her in HSH to train and she is now one shot everything. Even Ebony Warrior with 100,000 Health while other follower with same exact equipment won't make a dent I checked via More Informative Console and found that all parameter seems fine except for her AttackDamageMult is 176476. Where is this come from or might comes from and is there a fix? Thank you Jarl Elisif the Fair + Thalmor Slaver = Elisif the Savage Hide contents never heard of or seen that kinda damage and health on a slave On 1/12/2022 at 2:10 PM, Martok73 said: which I honestly never thought that they could unequip it to begin with. It may be something in HSH causing them the unequip the collars I honestly don't know, I just noticed that a few of them would not be wearing it while the rest were, so not many, just a few, maybe something with HSH honestly have no clue at this point. my first suspect would be a sexlab script that couldn't complete, except those are marked as no strip so even that still seems odd. if you think it might be a hsh bug effecting your pahe slaves, i would suggest disabling the arousal sex from hsh. which ever you decide the most likely thing to cause such a bug, i'd suggest re-equipping them all and watch when things happen to slaves for possible bugs On 1/12/2022 at 2:10 PM, Martok73 said: Ironically she is the only female I've found so far in my game as I've went around to all the giant camps I have discovered/unlocked and haven't seen any other females. So one female out of about 20 camps I think currently that have all been cleared multiple times. Strange that she's the only one so far TBH. lol, no wonder they went extinct with only 1 girl to all them boys.
CliftonJD Posted January 20, 2022 Author Posted January 20, 2022 On 1/14/2022 at 6:38 PM, Gurofiend24 said: Mcm menu doesn't appear when using the most recent version for me. When I roll back to an older one it does show up and work as intended. I'm using SE not AE. Any ideas why it ain't showing up? Tried restarting mod within what I can see in the menu but it never boots. if you're getting the restart button, you're getting the mcm. other options are blocked if the mod isn't running. trouble getting it to boot would be an issue with a stopped up papyrus. post the log if you need further help On 1/15/2022 at 2:41 AM, Pfiffy said: I have some problems with the script fragments for some of the new quests. I need to build new fragments from the old scripts, but the fragment windows are empty, so I can't copy them from the original files to generate the new ones. use xedit to edit the dialogs and tell tell the dialogue to use the script On 1/15/2022 at 2:41 AM, Pfiffy said: how I can distinguish between the start and the end fragment? depends on the tif being edited, majority of the tdf tif's only use fragment 0 On 1/15/2022 at 4:28 AM, Example John said: Paradise Halls still doesn't work well with the latest version of AE/SKSE (1.6.353/2.1.5) correct? actually another user here already testing on ae. some quest npc's that i've fixed in se won't take my quest fixes in ae without adding unofficial se patch On 1/17/2022 at 2:46 AM, narbzhikaru said: The slavers that attack me are the ones for the quest with finding the girl. They attack on sight.. and even if i kill them I can't talk to her or complete the quest. ahh, those are home sweet home npc's for its quest. tons of issues reported in the hsh thread about that quest. pardo not giving his dialogue would be that he's set for a quest stage unless you choose the mcm option to skip the quest, but i think i've also heard issues with skippig the quest once its been started 2
CliftonJD Posted January 20, 2022 Author Posted January 20, 2022 On 1/17/2022 at 10:17 AM, Example John said: Ok, so I did some testing and it would seem that PAHE doesn't work yet with the latest version of Aniversery Edition / SKSE (1.6.353/2.1.5). At least it doesn't for me. I've tested with just PAHE and it's dependencies enabled (Sexlab, Zaz etc,,,) . The logs in the top left says paradise hall has started, the slave tracking quest starts too and all items (whip, collars etc) are in the game too. However on the MCM menu all pages are empty. When trying to interact with someone who's in bleed out or paralyzed the prompt for enslaving pops up but no option to enslave can be picked. then your best bet would be to search this thread for the other user to compare notes for why its not working for you and the other user is already escaping cidna mine with slaves. getting the mod to start would be a papyrus issue so check your log for what's stopped up On 1/17/2022 at 11:17 AM, dustbeetwelve said: Question for @CliftonJD What's the safest way to update mid-save? I remember reading a long time ago there was some procedure where you had to gather all your slaves, tie them, uninstall, reinstall, or something... i know it is probably not ideal to update mid save but i'd like to try how would you recommend I do it? Here's what i'm currently running: PAHE 8.04 DoM 2.3.2 Musje's mods havent been updated in forever so idk if they are relevant but heres my version numbers for them: AYGAS 0.57 HSH 1.26 I'd like to get the latest PAHE so I can get DoM 2.5.0 which requires PAHE 8.07 - not sure if @TrollAutokill would be the person to ask or if i should put it in this thread Asking cuz i want to install the voicepacks that @reedeonry is making for PAHE, DOM, etc and they require latest versions of everything Running SE 1.5.97, non-AE, SexLabFrameworkSE_v163 latest non-AE version from November 20 2021 (they dont have version numbers anymore i think) safest way to update really depends on your save, in most cases its best to just update it as is, but in some cases the scripts are burned into the save too much to upgrade: On 7/3/2018 at 9:22 PM, CliftonJD said: final trouble shooting methods when all else fails: Hide contents Install Let's Tie You Up Bind every slave you have into position Save your game Remove everything PAH-related Load game, wait 5 minutes, save game Clean save with Papyrus Data Transfer Load cleaned game, wait 5 minutes, save it Enable all PAH stuff again Enslave your slaves again On 1/17/2022 at 10:01 PM, Antiope_Apollonia said: How hard would it be to create a patch/add-on to be able to teach slaves "bound weapon" spells and get them to use them in combat? they mostly use their old combat ai so while you could crack the code on aft for how to teach them the spell, not certain they would use it On 1/17/2022 at 10:01 PM, Antiope_Apollonia said: Changing the health threshold for enslavement doesn't seem to actually do anything. had that function break before, last time we couldn't even move the slider and it was a pita to fix it On 1/17/2022 at 10:01 PM, Antiope_Apollonia said: Once in a while, one/some of my slaves will just disappear visually. They're still there, just invisible. Reloading the game usually fixes it. Any idea what's up with that? seems to be a graphic issue, usually means its best to restart the pc to avoid getting the bug again later On 1/17/2022 at 10:01 PM, Antiope_Apollonia said: How exactly is sex refusal determined? It seems like it depends on sex training? That seems like a weird design choice, both in terms of realism and just gameplay frustration. It seems like a slave with 100 submission should seldom if ever refuse sex, even if she's a virgin. could also be argued that a slut with 50 sex training should seldom if ever refuse. if you want an extra option for submission to be considered as a factor, remind me to look into this after reworking the respect On 1/17/2022 at 10:01 PM, Antiope_Apollonia said: FemaleSultry slaves are seriously overplaying "Let me go. I won't say anyting." Or maybe it's specific to it being Alva (unique Morthal vampire). I don't have a stable of FemaleSultry slaves to test, but Alva spams the heck out of that line. probably alva, i'm not even seeing that line as an option On 1/17/2022 at 10:01 PM, Antiope_Apollonia said: Silly little bug! If you take a Thalmor slave into the Thalmor headquarters in Solitude, they'll be sorta semi-hostile. interesting, i'll have to try that out On 1/17/2022 at 10:01 PM, Antiope_Apollonia said: Respectful slaves should really not be making the reproachful vanilla comments—e.g., "What are you doing that for?!"—whenever you jostle some clutter items. Don't know if that's even fixable, but if it is, it'd be a big improvement! never had a slave tell me that for vanilla reasons. in pahe its used in response to a sex topic On 1/17/2022 at 10:01 PM, Antiope_Apollonia said: I know I've mentioned this before in the DoM thread, but Troll didn't have any ideas, and I don't think I've mentioned it to you. Do you see any way to prevent slaves from dancing to bards? I know I can get mods to make bards not sing, but I actually like the bards. I just don't think it's very good slave behaviour to forget their training and start dancing every time—unless I can punish them for it. And, worse, it causes strange telekinetic cup behaviour and detached limbs if they happen to be wearing cuffs, armbinders, or straitjackets. just out of curiosity, find out what happens if you have a tied slave in the same room as the bard, will the tied slave still get upto dance with the rest or will she stay put. iirc tied slaves will stay put, my guess is this bug comes from unlocking their idles. i can add them to the bard excluded faction for next update. i notice sl already uses that faction, so that should work On 1/17/2022 at 10:01 PM, Antiope_Apollonia said: Is there any way to prevent slaves from picking up random weapons? not certain on that either, as far as i can tell that's set in the race conditions. found an article on the comments npc's make about player dropped items indicating it might be a world interaction i can block thru the actor packages so i can try that for next update, but how often does it happen. i mean is it something we can easily test for if i try changing this On 1/17/2022 at 10:01 PM, Antiope_Apollonia said: Is there any way we could have the ability to export/import a few slaves? i.e., When you "export", the slave's appearance, inventory, and stats would be saved to a configuration file, and the slave would be removed from your game. When you "import", an identical new copy of that slave would be created—potentially in a different save game! You'd probably want to limit this to a maximum of 3–5 slaves or else it could quickly get out of hand, lol. think for this we need something like the familiar faces mod, but usable for slaves instead of the player, not something i ready to try yet On 1/17/2022 at 10:01 PM, Antiope_Apollonia said: How much would I need to learn to create a patch/extension to enslave specific NPCs into PAHE through dialogue, e.g., dialogue to offer Bralsa Drel slavery as an alternative to her miserable life instead of initiating the "Feeding the Addiction" quest? Can this be done within SSEEdit, or would I need the CK? this gets easier in the coming updates, i'm making changes along those lines. the first update coming up fixes the family feud weapon enchantment and adds a new rope of enslavement to the devious suits addon. the rope utilizes devious framework to be able to force equip the rope on the victim thru the use of reverse pickpocket. once the rope is worn, the wearer becomes enslaved. coming soon i'll be patching into zaz gag dialogue tree to enslave already bound targets such as the hydra slaves once we have dialogue compatible script, its only a matter of finding a condition so the whole world isn't enslaved and a trigger to start the enslavement. in the case of Bralsa Drel we could patch into her existing dialogue so her existing quest could become an either or situation of accepting the quest or offering her enslavement with you as her care-taker On 1/18/2022 at 12:48 AM, The Man in Black said: I've started having an issue where I can no longer interact with slaves after I restrain them. Resetting the slave fixes it, but I'm trying to figure out what might be causing it. It seems almost like a dialogue block or something. i'm guessing you're referring to the nords who can't speak while gagged due to cattle voices. basically slaves are added to DLC1ThrallFaction to allow feeding on them and prevent issues with dlc npc's if the player sides with the vampires. the reset removes nords from that faction to return to normal slave speech 1
Martok73 Posted January 20, 2022 Posted January 20, 2022 On 1/18/2022 at 6:03 AM, narbzhikaru said: So I removed the YHiMH2 patch and it caused one of my other mods to stop working but its fine because afterwards I reactivated after being able to complete the mission like you said, but I would like to know where you are getting these numbers from like 80 or whatever you are saying from script load? Is there a program I should be using to detect this? That's really strange as I was looking at your load order the only mod I saw for MHiYH was the original version and not the 2plus version, which is what that specific patch is for. As to the 80 number I am refering to the results of the Elephant Script Lag Tester mod, any number it returns below 80 is golden, and for me personally any number over 100 is bad, but that's just me as alot of people think anything over 200 is bad. On 1/18/2022 at 5:05 AM, Will55 said: These are what I have found in my current playthrough and are obviously all, in my opinion only, and not necessarily kosher. Only WRT to your teaching slaves other spells, or having slaves teach other spells... I personally have seen several of my mage slaves teach the spells they know to any slave they train in combat and have seen the newly trained slave use those spells the same way as the original slave. I've also seen melee type slaves learn spells from mage slaves during combat training and use said spells as well, so for me, this already happens and works really well. I've even seen slaves improve the level of their spells the higher their combat training gets, like going from flames, to fireball, to incinerate, which I think is really cool. 2 hours ago, CliftonJD said: my first suspect would be a sexlab script that couldn't complete, except those are marked as no strip so even that still seems odd. if you think it might be a hsh bug effecting your pahe slaves, i would suggest disabling the arousal sex from hsh. which ever you decide the most likely thing to cause such a bug, i'd suggest re-equipping them all and watch when things happen to slaves for possible bugs I'll have to check but I'm almost positive that I have the arousal of followers sex with slaves already disabled in HSH. I honestly have no clue as to what is causing some but not all slaves to unequip their collars, as every single slave I have uses either the iron slave collar or the leashing collar from PAHE. 2 hours ago, CliftonJD said: lol, no wonder they went extinct with only 1 girl to all them boys. Get this, so I recently played another one of my many characters, one I hadn't played in several months, and guess what I found in that save???? I fully functional working female giant walking around with not one but two other male giants in the giant camp just west of Whiterun. They were not in an A-Pose at all and worked just fine and I did absolutely nothing at all to my mod list or mod load order, nada damn thing. So something in that one save file specifically has borked that lone female giant and caused her to A-Pose while the other female giants in my other save file works just fine... Talk about rally weird shit going on, explain that one, LOL. 2 hours ago, CliftonJD said: ahh, those are home sweet home npc's for its quest. tons of issues reported in the hsh thread about that quest. pardo not giving his dialogue would be that he's set for a quest stage unless you choose the mcm option to skip the quest, but i think i've also heard issues with skippig the quest once its been started I've done the quest one time all the way thru and ever since I've always used the MCM option to make it optional cause that quest is buggy as hell and some parts are a royal pain in the ass to complete even without the bugs. 2 hours ago, CliftonJD said: had that function break before, last time we couldn't even move the slider and it was a pita to fix it So far health enslavement slider works fine for me, but I did have to up the value abit cause I accidentally killed a few I wanted to enslave with bad luck rng on crit rolls, LOL. 2 hours ago, CliftonJD said: probably alva, i'm not even seeing that line as an option If it's just Alva then it's rare as hell, cause I've kept her with me ever since I enslaved her on my vampire char and she's fully trained at 100 sub/respect/combat/pose/sex and she's never ever said that at all, not even when I first enslaved her when her stats were all at zero. I looked at her dialog lines in xedit and couldn't find that line at all so no clue where it comes from. 2 hours ago, CliftonJD said: never had a slave tell me that for vanilla reasons. in pahe its used in response to a sex topic I've had slaves use that line after a sex scene that ends up with both of us standing on a bed right before I get off the bed, lol 2 hours ago, CliftonJD said: this gets easier in the coming updates, i'm making changes along those lines. the first update coming up fixes the family feud weapon enchantment and adds a new rope of enslavement to the devious suits addon. the rope utilizes devious framework to be able to force equip the rope on the victim thru the use of reverse pickpocket. once the rope is worn, the wearer becomes enslaved. coming soon i'll be patching into zaz gag dialogue tree to enslave already bound targets such as the hydra slaves once we have dialogue compatible script, its only a matter of finding a condition so the whole world isn't enslaved and a trigger to start the enslavement. in the case of Bralsa Drel we could patch into her existing dialogue so her existing quest could become an either or situation of accepting the quest or offering her enslavement with you as her care-taker I have a question about this myself as I have noticed that on one of my characters if I have them tied up via SL Defeat's knockdown tie up npcs option, then I have a new dialog option when I talk to them that says "I'm taking you with me (enslave via PAHE)" and if I select that option it indeed enslaves them giving me the dialog of "Listen, you're a slave now" and so forth. However I have another character that can do the exact same thing and tie up an npc via the same SL Defeat method and it does not give the "I'm taking you with me" dialog option. Any idea what actually triggers that dialog option on npcs that are tied up via another mod besides PAHE? I'd love to be able to get that dialog on all my characters but I have no clue as to what I've done different in that one single save that has triggered that dialog to appear, and not appear on every other character. 1
Martok73 Posted January 20, 2022 Posted January 20, 2022 @CliftonJD What is the Combat training cap for v8.07? I'm asking because I just had a slave loose 170pts in combat. Had her combat training up to 201 and now it's at 30 any idea what happened and how can I get it back?
Will55 Posted January 20, 2022 Posted January 20, 2022 7 hours ago, CliftonJD said: never had a slave tell me that for vanilla reasons. in pahe its used in response to a sex topic It is a quite common slave comment post voluntary sex with any slave (or any NPC), even if the slave was the partner. 7 hours ago, CliftonJD said: not certain on that either, as far as i can tell that's set in the race conditions. found an article on the comments npc's make about player dropped items indicating it might be a world interaction i can block thru the actor packages so i can try that for next update, but how often does it happen. i mean is it something we can easily test for if i try changing this So long as it is, as a choice.
terrorofmorrowind Posted January 20, 2022 Posted January 20, 2022 I mananged to fix my AYGAS issue. I think it somewhat "drowns" when you try to load too many mods at once because removing it, cleaning the save and then re-enabling it. Did the trick.
Antiope_Apollonia Posted January 20, 2022 Posted January 20, 2022 (edited) 21 hours ago, CliftonJD said: they mostly use their old combat ai so while you could crack the code on aft for how to teach them the spell, not certain they would use it Yeah, teaching them the spell is the easy part. Getting them to use the spell is more problematic. There is one bandit leader that I encounter in world events like one in five playthroughs who uses Bound Battleaxe, and I could swear there's a cave somewhere full of Somethingsomething Spellswords who use Bound Sword and who I see even less frequently. And they actually use them. So conceivably, I should be able to figure out exactly who they are, then look at their records in SSEEdit and figure out what combat AI they're using, and presumably slaves could be given that AI through some script attached to a dialogue or something. But so far, I've failed step one. 21 hours ago, CliftonJD said: had that function break before, last time we couldn't even move the slider and it was a pita to fix it It has been broken for a while, but I couldn't say exactly when. The slider works fine, but it just doesn't seem to have any effect. I always feel like 50% is kinda too easy, so I turn it down to 20–30%, but for a while now, I've been noticing I have the option to enslave them prematurely. 21 hours ago, CliftonJD said: seems to be a graphic issue, usually means its best to restart the pc to avoid getting the bug again later Just restarting Skyrim has always been enough to fix it for me, but it happens maybe once a week or so. Not the biggest deal, but always pretty jarring when it does occur—sometimes I end up spend spending a good five minutes or so looking for the slave before I remember the bug and realise what's happened. 21 hours ago, CliftonJD said: could also be argued that a slut with 50 sex training should seldom if ever refuse. if you want an extra option for submission to be considered as a factor, remind me to look into this after reworking the respect Maybe my understanding of the systems is wrong, but my sense has been that "Submission" training is meant to govern how compliant the slave is—how willing she is to follow your orders—and that "Sex" training is essentially a measure of how good the slave is at sex—hence why you need high sex training to sell slaves as tavern whores in AYGAS. In practise, it seems to be impossible to have high sex training and low submission training, although maybe with the right DoM personality and a lot of rape you could do it, but I would understand a high sex, low submission slave as being able to perform well sexually but unwilling to do so. But a high submission, low sex slave is quite common, and I'd understand such a slave as basically being like your stereotypical late-teens/early-20s virgin—eager to try, but no idea what she's doing. Anyway, it seems weird that a slave at 100 submission will reliably execute any command you give her except sex. For RP reasons, I never use rape as a punishment, so taken together, this means that training sex is always super weird. I routinely have slaves who have been to hell and back with me and are maxed or close to it in every skill except sex, and they still will refuse sex 100% of the time. Usually, I end up gradually getting their sex training up to a respectable level by scolding/punishing for refusal, but it never feels good from either a gameplay or realism perspective. I'd guess a lot of users just rape their slaves constantly and don't really pay much attention to consent, but if you don't, the current mechanic feels really broken. But determining consent off of sex instead of submission training isn't the only oddity here. That's why I asked how consent is determined. I'm not sure how DoM affects consent, but when I asked in the DoM thread, Troll said it was more of a core PAHE mechanic, so I didn't pursue it there. At any rate, I often find that even slaves with 100 Submission (and pretty much everything else), 90+ Sex, who are "In Love" or "Loyal", and who have highly "Sensual" personalities still refuse sex very frequently. This just doesn't seem like it should be right. That's basically every "pro-sex" box ticked; I'd think such a slave should effectively consent 100% of the time, and it should scale down from there. 21 hours ago, CliftonJD said: probably alva, i'm not even seeing that line as an option 19 hours ago, Martok73 said: If it's just Alva then it's rare as hell, cause I've kept her with me ever since I enslaved her on my vampire char and she's fully trained at 100 sub/respect/combat/pose/sex and she's never ever said that at all, not even when I first enslaved her when her stats were all at zero. I started a new playthrough this week, so I'll try to make my way to Morthal soon and we'll see if I get the same behaviour again. It was a nice, immersive dialogue line for her to use at first, but she just never stopped spamming it, even after she was fully trained, so it got pretty irritating. 21 hours ago, CliftonJD said: never had a slave tell me that for vanilla reasons. in pahe its used in response to a sex topic There are a few dialogues that all(?) NPCs use when you jostle clutter near them. If memory serves, they don't get subtitled, even if you have subtitles enabled by default, so maybe you just miss them? At any rate, slaves seem to use these dialogues the same as any other NPC, but it feels like they really oughtn't. 21 hours ago, CliftonJD said: just out of curiosity, find out what happens if you have a tied slave in the same room as the bard, will the tied slave still get upto dance with the rest or will she stay put. iirc tied slaves will stay put, my guess is this bug comes from unlocking their idles. I tie slaves in inns fairly often, and I've never seen bards break the bondage. It just wreaks havoc on Devious Devices. And, as mentioned, it's also just unbecoming of a properly submissive slave—if it weren't for breaking DD's, I'd say it'd be cool to have it tied to training and make dancing punishable, but given the problems, it'd certainly be better to just block all slaves from dancing altogether. 21 hours ago, CliftonJD said: i can add them to the bard excluded faction for next update. i notice sl already uses that faction, so that should work Well, I have no idea how it'll work, but that certainly sounds like a good solution. I look forward to trying it! 21 hours ago, CliftonJD said: not certain on that either, as far as i can tell that's set in the race conditions. found an article on the comments npc's make about player dropped items indicating it might be a world interaction i can block thru the actor packages so i can try that for next update, but how often does it happen. i mean is it something we can easily test for if i try changing this It's something that happens quite reliably if the conditions are right. If you have a slave who doesn't know any spells and doesn't have any weapons in her inventory, then she will always pick up weapons off the ground if any are available when she engages in combat—although, if she refuses to fight, I don't think she will. I'm not sure exactly how big the search radius is, but it isn't tiny. It makes it basically impossible to keep a slave unarmed when fighting in a bandit dungeon or whatever. Note that, if you equip them with a straitjacket or bondage mittens or the like, that will mostly prevent them from picking up weapons, but it isn't 100% reliable—they still go for staves, especially, but also occasionally other weapons with no discernible pattern. But an even smaller subset of the time, picking up weapons while wearing heavy bondage will lead to further glitchy behaviour like disembodied weapons. If weapon scavenging behaviour can just be removed from their AI wholecloth, it would certainly be an improvement. I look forward to seeing what you come up with. 21 hours ago, CliftonJD said: think for this we need something like the familiar faces mod, but usable for slaves instead of the player, not something i ready to try yet Fair enough. I figured it would be a heavy lift. Especially with DoM, I tend to get really attached to a couple of favourite slaves each playthrough, and I wrote that post when ending one long playthrough and starting the next, so I was feeling quite sad about Jolie and Amalie not being with me anymore. Being able to bring one or two favourites with me to a new playthrough would definitely soften the pain, although one could argue it might also make the moment in each new playthrough, when your frenzied search for your first really nice slave finally bears fruit, less satisfying. Lerisa is doing her best to melt my cold, cold heart in the new playthrough so far. 21 hours ago, CliftonJD said: this gets easier in the coming updates, i'm making changes along those lines. the first update coming up fixes the family feud weapon enchantment and adds a new rope of enslavement to the devious suits addon. the rope utilizes devious framework to be able to force equip the rope on the victim thru the use of reverse pickpocket. once the rope is worn, the wearer becomes enslaved. coming soon i'll be patching into zaz gag dialogue tree to enslave already bound targets such as the hydra slaves once we have dialogue compatible script, its only a matter of finding a condition so the whole world isn't enslaved and a trigger to start the enslavement. Are you familiar with Slave Jane? It's a nice little mod that just gives you a custom slave you can buy in Riverwood for an unimmersively low price. She comes partially trained, and crucially, you enslave her through dialogue—sorta; you knock her into bleedout through dialogue, then enslave her like normal, but that's close enough. Unfortunately, the mod author isn't very active. I've failed to figure out how he managed to do it, but I'm pretty ignorant as a modder, so I'm sure someone more knowledgeable could recreate his work more easily. 21 hours ago, CliftonJD said: in the case of Bralsa Drel we could patch into her existing dialogue so her existing quest could become an either or situation of accepting the quest or offering her enslavement with you as her care-taker If I can learn how to do it, for a while now, I've had designs on making a little PAHE addon to enslave a variety of vanilla NPCs through (relatively) lore-friendly means. Bralsa Drel seems like the most clear-cut case, but I have a few other ideas in mind, too. Another pretty clear-cut one would be while you're doing Svana Far-Shield's quest, when you return to Haelga, she decides Svana has become too much trouble and agrees to let you take the unruly niece off her hands; ideally, Svana would be replaced in the Bunkhouse by a random servant (probably from Full Random) [EDIT: Actually, better yet, maybe you could trade her another slave, and the slave you give her would take over for Svana] who would inherit her AI package for maximum immersion. Anyway, if you'd be interested in building such things into core PAHE, I'd be happy to do the writing and just pass it on to you to implement, but otherwise, I'll try to learn how to make an addon to accomplish this, so if you or anyone else can point me in the right direction, I'm all ears. I have a pretty serviceable but hardly exhaustive knowledge of SSEEdit and very, very little knowledge of the CK, so the more of this it's possible to accomplish within the former, the more likely I'd be to be successful. Edited January 21, 2022 by Antiope_Apollonia
Leoosp Posted January 20, 2022 Posted January 20, 2022 (edited) @CliftonJD For your information via a soft dependency it is possible with EFF to set a follower (but here slave) home, via a modevent. So if PAHE after a dialogue choice were to do the necessary modevent, a slave's home can be set to their present location (or one of a list of player homes). Recommended for people producing homes to be used with PAHE, to have the slave dungeon in its own internal cell. They will be able to navigate back and forth as required. But when ordered home will go to the dungeon cell, and sand box in there, unless in a separate jail. Please note this is for both SSE and Skyrim LE. Edited January 21, 2022 by Leoosp
bnub345 Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 8 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: It was a nice, immersive dialogue line for her to use at first, but she just never stopped spamming it, even after she was fully trained, so it got pretty irritating. If you are using the option to not clone unique NPCs they will still use their vanilla lines. Camilla will always say "You're not from around here bla bla bla..." every time you walk past her for instance. Might be what is going on with Alva.
CliftonJD Posted January 21, 2022 Author Posted January 21, 2022 21 hours ago, Martok73 said: Only WRT to your teaching slaves other spells, or having slaves teach other spells... I personally have seen several of my mage slaves teach the spells they know to any slave they train in combat and have seen the newly trained slave use those spells the same way as the original slave. I've also seen melee type slaves learn spells from mage slaves during combat training and use said spells as well, so for me, this already happens and works really well. I've even seen slaves improve the level of their spells the higher their combat training gets, like going from flames, to fireball, to incinerate, which I think is really cool. hmm, any idea if that's a feature of hsh or another of your mods. would love to be able to share my slave spells with other slaves. lol wenches and judgement wenches come to mind 21 hours ago, Martok73 said: Get this, so I recently played another one of my many characters, one I hadn't played in several months, and guess what I found in that save???? I fully functional working female giant walking around with not one but two other male giants in the giant camp just west of Whiterun. They were not in an A-Pose at all and worked just fine and I did absolutely nothing at all to my mod list or mod load order, nada damn thing. So something in that one save file specifically has borked that lone female giant and caused her to A-Pose while the other female giants in my other save file works just fine... Talk about rally weird shit going on, explain that one, LOL. just outta curiosity since i know how bad slave giants were in Le, wonder if your female giants get messed up after enslaving the male 21 hours ago, Martok73 said: So far health enslavement slider works fine for me, but I did have to up the value abit cause I accidentally killed a few I wanted to enslave with bad luck rng on crit rolls, LOL. oh good to hear its working at your end, means it might be exclusive bug to that other user 21 hours ago, Martok73 said: If it's just Alva then it's rare as hell, cause I've kept her with me ever since I enslaved her on my vampire char and she's fully trained at 100 sub/respect/combat/pose/sex and she's never ever said that at all, not even when I first enslaved her when her stats were all at zero. I looked at her dialog lines in xedit and couldn't find that line at all so no clue where it comes from. ahh another weird dialogue bug. oh and i think that dialogue about "whip" that slaves get every so often might be a zaz thing cuz it gets used alot in hsh scenes 21 hours ago, Martok73 said: have a question about this myself as I have noticed that on one of my characters if I have them tied up via SL Defeat's knockdown tie up npcs option, then I have a new dialog option when I talk to them that says "I'm taking you with me (enslave via PAHE)" and if I select that option it indeed enslaves them giving me the dialog of "Listen, you're a slave now" and so forth. However I have another character that can do the exact same thing and tie up an npc via the same SL Defeat method and it does not give the "I'm taking you with me" dialog option. Any idea what actually triggers that dialog option on npcs that are tied up via another mod besides PAHE? I'd love to be able to get that dialog on all my characters but I have no clue as to what I've done different in that one single save that has triggered that dialog to appear, and not appear on every other character. ya, i don't use defeat, but see alot of other users miss the dialogue from it for enslavement. seems to be about 50/50 average 17 hours ago, Martok73 said: @CliftonJD What is the Combat training cap for v8.07? I'm asking because I just had a slave loose 170pts in combat. Had her combat training up to 201 and now it's at 30 any idea what happened and how can I get it back? the cap is over 800, but there's a faction limit that breaks around 250 or so. next update sets the cap down to 150 or 175 so we don't exceed the game's faction limit and lose all that training-got about half a dozen or so slaves in my save with that same issue, but i notice those slaves are harder to feasibly impossible to train or retrain combat, so it has me wondering if that 30 we see is really 30 + the invisible amount it had before that 30 6 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: But determining consent off of sex instead of submission training isn't the only oddity here. That's why I asked how consent is determined. I'm not sure how DoM affects consent, but when I asked in the DoM thread, Troll said it was more of a core PAHE mechanic, so I didn't pursue it there. At any rate, I often find that even slaves with 100 Submission (and pretty much everything else), 90+ Sex, who are "In Love" or "Loyal", and who have highly "Sensual" personalities still refuse sex very frequently. This just doesn't seem like it should be right. That's basically every "pro-sex" box ticked; I'd think such a slave should effectively consent 100% of the time, and it should scale down from there. 2 options for fear with a submission 60 or higher for consenting options fear with a submission 60 or higher and sex training 40 or more gives consenting options fear with sub 70 or more gives consenting options another for fear with 50 or higher gives consenting options respectful with sub 90 or higher leads to consenting options no anger with a sub 80 or more and a sex training 50 or more leads to consent no anger and sub of 90 or more and a sex training 60 or more leads to consent no anger with sub 70 or more and sex training 30 or less leads to consent 2 options for no anger with a sub 60 or higher and sex training 40 or less lead to rape topics 2 options for anger with sub 60 or higher leading to rape anger with sub 60 or more and a sex training 60 or less leads to rape anger with sub 60 or more and sex training 50 or more leads to rape anger with sub 60 or less and anger 60 or less leads to rape no anger and sub 70 or less with sex training 50 or less leads to rape 2 options for no anger with sub 60 or less and sex training 30 or less leading to rape another option for sub 60 or less and sex training 30 or less without emotional bias leading to rape fear with sub 70 or higher and sex training 40 or less leads to rape no fear and no anger with sub 70 or higher leads to rape seems a balance is already set in place leaning towards a mix between emotion and training. think this would be where i pointed out in the Le thread that fear tends to get you what you want more while anger will tend to get opposition and rebellion. also planning on working in a system where the rape topics become flat out refusal topics with a change to the punishment options that you would need to tie them down to get the rape options 7 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: so maybe you just miss them? At any rate, slaves seem to use these dialogues the same as any other NPC, but it feels like they really oughtn't. ya, i seen others use it plenty, just never seen it from slaves. i see no plus or bonus to letting them keep saying it, but i do see it would seem awkward coming from a slave. think we would classify this as a reaction to player actions so i'm removing that option from the slaves behavior for next update 8 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: Are you familiar with Slave Jane? It's a nice little mod that just gives you a custom slave you can buy in Riverwood for an unimmersively low price. She comes partially trained, and crucially, you enslave her through dialogue—sorta; you knock her into bleedout through dialogue, then enslave her like normal, but that's close enough. Unfortunately, the mod author isn't very active. I've failed to figure out how he managed to do it, but I'm pretty ignorant as a modder, so I'm sure someone more knowledgeable could recreate his work more easily. lol, he should ammend the requirements to specify it only works with paradise halls enhanced or pahe...not the regular old paradise halls. wasn't aware yet of the finished product, i remember helping to make it work 7 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: I can learn how to do it, for a while now, I've had designs on making a little PAHE addon to enslave a variety of vanilla NPCs through (relatively) lore-friendly means. Bralsa Drel seems like the most clear-cut case, but I have a few other ideas in mind, too. Another pretty clear-cut one would be while you're doing Svana Far-Shield's quest, when you return to Haelga, she decides Svana has become too much trouble and agrees to let you take the unruly niece off her hands; ideally, Svana would be replaced in the Bunkhouse by a random servant (probably from Full Random) [EDIT: Actually, better yet, maybe you could trade her another slave, and the slave you give her would take over for Svana] who would inherit her AI package for maximum immersion. Anyway, if you'd be interested in building such things into core PAHE, I'd be happy to do the writing and just pass it on to you to implement, but otherwise, I'll try to learn how to make an addon to accomplish this, so if you or anyone else can point me in the right direction, I'm all ears. I have a pretty serviceable but hardly exhaustive knowledge of SSEEdit and very, very little knowledge of the CK, so the more of this it's possible to accomplish within the former, the more likely I'd be to be successful. Edited 2 hours ago by Antiope_Apollonia ya, my biggest pet peeve on dialogue writing always get the feeling its not the right thing should be said or doesn't seem immersive so a nice idea could sit on the shelf sometimes just for lack of the right feeling to the dialogue. like oh you're so tied up you can't object if i enslave you now<then bam she's a slave> 4 hours ago, Leoosp said: @CliftonJD For your information via a soft dependency it is possible with EFF to set a follower (but here slave) home, via a modevent. So if PAHE after a dialogue choice were to do the necessary modevent, a slave's home can be set to their present location (or one of a list of player homes). Recommended for people producing homes to be used with PAHE, to have the slave dungeon in its own internal cell. They will be able to navigate back and forth as required. But when ordered home will go to the dungeon cell, and sand box in there, unless in a separate jail. Please note this is for both SSE and Skyrim LE. but have you tested that follower feature on slaves, we know for certain that the "my home is your home" mod breaks any slaves its used on. this is why the patches were made preventing those dialogs on slaves 2
Leoosp Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 (edited) @CliftonJD The feature requires the use of Mod Events in Papyrus API to access, and I have had an really bad experience with the editor of Oblivion in the past. Given that Skyrim is in part the same engine, I'm seriously wary of it. So as a result I don't know, but if the slaves are using EFF as a form of something like a follower then it would be at a base level. It just re-assigns where the "home" (residence) location is. Basically where they return to when they are dismissed can be re-assigned through EFF. So if re-assigning the home location of any slaves it its used on, breaks them with "My Home is Your Home" mod then it will too. If however it is something else done in MHiYH or the way it re-assigns the home location, then it may be different. Edited January 21, 2022 by Leoosp
Martok73 Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 13 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: Maybe my understanding of the systems is wrong, but my sense has been that "Submission" training is meant to govern how compliant the slave is—how willing she is to follow your orders—and that "Sex" training is essentially a measure of how good the slave is at sex—hence why you need high sex training to sell slaves as tavern whores in AYGAS. In practise, it seems to be impossible to have high sex training and low submission training, although maybe with the right DoM personality and a lot of rape you could do it, but I would understand a high sex, low submission slave as being able to perform well sexually but unwilling to do so. But a high submission, low sex slave is quite common, and I'd understand such a slave as basically being like your stereotypical late-teens/early-20s virgin—eager to try, but no idea what she's doing. Anyway, it seems weird that a slave at 100 submission will reliably execute any command you give her except sex. For RP reasons, I never use rape as a punishment, so taken together, this means that training sex is always super weird. I routinely have slaves who have been to hell and back with me and are maxed or close to it in every skill except sex, and they still will refuse sex 100% of the time. Usually, I end up gradually getting their sex training up to a respectable level by scolding/punishing for refusal, but it never feels good from either a gameplay or realism perspective. I'd guess a lot of users just rape their slaves constantly and don't really pay much attention to consent, but if you don't, the current mechanic feels really broken. But determining consent off of sex instead of submission training isn't the only oddity here. That's why I asked how consent is determined. I'm not sure how DoM affects consent, but when I asked in the DoM thread, Troll said it was more of a core PAHE mechanic, so I didn't pursue it there. At any rate, I often find that even slaves with 100 Submission (and pretty much everything else), 90+ Sex, who are "In Love" or "Loyal", and who have highly "Sensual" personalities still refuse sex very frequently. This just doesn't seem like it should be right. That's basically every "pro-sex" box ticked; I'd think such a slave should effectively consent 100% of the time, and it should scale down from there. What dialog option are you specifically using to have sex with your slaves? For me I have 3 different options all from PAHE to initiate sex with slaves. There is the "you need to be punished" option that will rape the slave, there is also the option that is under the "Ok, slave" dialog which is "I'm going to fuck you" which also counts as rape but with different animation options as opposed to the punishment option. Then there is the "Strip now slave I'm going to have some fun with you" option that has 3 options under it, 1st option "Come here and give me some attention" is flagged as consensual and does not trigger rape in SexLab and most of the time doesn't show aggressive animations, but on occasion I have some bleed thru as choices. 2nd option is "Time to get a little rough" which is flagged as aggressive sex in SexLab but not exactly rape because it primarily uses aggressive animations but for the most part I get a message in the upper left showing something to the effect of "genereic npc name, pushes against you and cries out" or something similar. While the 3rd option tells them to masturbate. Now I have no idea how DoM changes the dialog but as far as PAHE is concerned I have never had an animation "Not" play when using any of the different ways to start a sex scene with a slave in PAHE dialog, not one single time has it failed regardless of how much sex training they have or how high their submission level is. I have had them react with "What, NOOO" before when using the "I'm going to fuck you" option to start sex, but the animation still played even tho they said no, animation still played, because the "I'm going to fuck you" dialog option is flagged as aggressive and counts as raping them, so the animation will proceed and never fail to start. I have had them beg for mercy when using the "Punishment" dialog option to start sex, but the animation always plays again because it is flagged as aggressive and counts as rape it never fails to start. Now from my own personal experience after a little over 1k hrs using PAHE I have never personally had a slave refuse sex is anyway shape or form when I use the semi-consensual non-aggressive flagged dialog option "Strip now I'm going to have some fun with you". Even tho it is not flagged as aggressive and does not count as rape, it isn't exactly 100% consensual either imho, because you are talking to a slave as their master/mistress and telling them to come and pleasure you, so even tho I have never ever had a slave refuse that dialog option resulting in an animation not playing, to me, the slave is merely being compliant with their master/mistresses command to "service" them and may or may not be what that slave actually wants to do, but they still do it. I honestly have never paid any attention as to whether or not the last dialog option that triggers non-aggressive sex is available the second you enslave a fresh npc or not tbh, so I can not tell you if that single dialog option is in anyway tied into the slaves submission level or sex level. I just know that I have never ever had a slaves refusal or objection to have sex stop a SexLab animation from playing. So if you actually are having slaves refuse sex and it's preventing SexLab animations from starting and playing, then it is for sure being caused by another mod and has nothing to do with PAHE cause in just over 1k hrs with this mod I've never had that happen ever and I've had ALOT of sex with ALOT of slaves. 6 hours ago, CliftonJD said: hmm, any idea if that's a feature of hsh or another of your mods. would love to be able to share my slave spells with other slaves. lol wenches and judgement wenches come to mind I honestly have no idea if it's part of HSH or just something in the base game that can happen between npcs, really no clue, I just know that I've had melee only slaves learn magic from my mage slaves, and have had the reverse happen with mage slaves learning melee from other slaves too. I do know that follower framework mods will allow you to teach your followers spells that you know, but that does not bleed over to one npc teaching another npc the spells that they know, cause I've been using follower frameworks longer than I've been using PAHE or HSH and have never had that happen so it can't be related I wouldn't think. Either it's part of HSH or it make be a hidden gem in the base game code somewhere, who knows really. 6 hours ago, CliftonJD said: just outta curiosity since i know how bad slave giants were in Le, wonder if your female giants get messed up after enslaving the male I honestly don't know the answer to that either, I suppose I could always load up a previous save before I enslaved the giant and see if I can find a female and check to see if she works or in an a-pose. So how come trolls, dwemer contraptions, and forgot the other thing listed in the MCM, work just fine to enslave but the giants cause issues? Enslaving a mechanical construct has always seemed really weird to me as they technically are not alive as they have soul gems inside to control their functions. I understand why trolls work so well because in Dawnguard you can have armored trolls as followers which is cool af. What was that last critter in the options of what can and can't be enslaved, I keep forgetting, it's in the long list of how you choose to enslave that has the health slider at the top right. 6 hours ago, CliftonJD said: oh good to hear its working at your end, means it might be exclusive bug to that other user It's possible, I know mine works cause I set it to 5 and took the health down to just under 50% and there was no "Enslave Health" option when I clicked on the npc I only had the dialog that SL Dialog adds on the particular bandit I did my testing on. I now have it set to 30% because with the 3 characters I am including slavery on, they hit too hard to set it any lower without risking killing the target on accident. I have several other characters that are not doing any kind of slavery in their playthroughs. 6 hours ago, CliftonJD said: ahh another weird dialogue bug. oh and i think that dialogue about "whip" that slaves get every so often might be a zaz thing cuz it gets used alot in hsh scenes It's a good possibility, and I've only seen that "whip" comment when whipping one of my slaves in HSH, I don't remember seeing it while they were under PAHE control but it's entirely possible it has happened and my goldfish memory just forgot. 6 hours ago, CliftonJD said: ya, i don't use defeat, but see alot of other users miss the dialogue from it for enslavement. seems to be about 50/50 average So, defeat is supposed to have the dialog then and just sometimes bugs out and doesn't show it? Am I understanding that statement correctly? 6 hours ago, CliftonJD said: the cap is over 800, but there's a faction limit that breaks around 250 or so. next update sets the cap down to 150 or 175 so we don't exceed the game's faction limit and lose all that training-got about half a dozen or so slaves in my save with that same issue, but i notice those slaves are harder to feasibly impossible to train or retrain combat, so it has me wondering if that 30 we see is really 30 + the invisible amount it had before that 30 No clue about a hidden or invisible amount, but the slave that lost the 170+ levels in combat training is now sitting at 83 currently, up from the 30 it blasted down to when it lost all the levels. So her combat is going up, albeit real damn slow now. 6 hours ago, CliftonJD said: 2 options for fear with a submission 60 or higher for consenting options fear with a submission 60 or higher and sex training 40 or more gives consenting options fear with sub 70 or more gives consenting options another for fear with 50 or higher gives consenting options respectful with sub 90 or higher leads to consenting options no anger with a sub 80 or more and a sex training 50 or more leads to consent no anger and sub of 90 or more and a sex training 60 or more leads to consent no anger with sub 70 or more and sex training 30 or less leads to consent 2 options for no anger with a sub 60 or higher and sex training 40 or less lead to rape topics 2 options for anger with sub 60 or higher leading to rape anger with sub 60 or more and a sex training 60 or less leads to rape anger with sub 60 or more and sex training 50 or more leads to rape anger with sub 60 or less and anger 60 or less leads to rape no anger and sub 70 or less with sex training 50 or less leads to rape 2 options for no anger with sub 60 or less and sex training 30 or less leading to rape another option for sub 60 or less and sex training 30 or less without emotional bias leading to rape fear with sub 70 or higher and sex training 40 or less leads to rape no fear and no anger with sub 70 or higher leads to rape seems a balance is already set in place leaning towards a mix between emotion and training. think this would be where i pointed out in the Le thread that fear tends to get you what you want more while anger will tend to get opposition and rebellion. also planning on working in a system where the rape topics become flat out refusal topics with a change to the punishment options that you would need to tie them down to get the rape options Ok so this is confusing as hell, lol. Are you basically saying that while a slave is under PAHE control, depending on submission level, current fear level, current anger level, and sex level, all determines which dialog options show up in the conversation menu to initiate sex with a slave? Am I understanding that correctly? If that's true I'm gonna have to pay alot more attention to the numbers showing in the MCM and not what is shown by using the "Slave Info" spell, cause I have found that the spell doesn't always show the same numbers as the MCM. So if starting sex dialog is tied to those numbers as to what available and when, I'm really gonna have to pay attention to those numbers cause I have never noticed that before at all and have just chosen dialog options based on their comments when I first start talking to them after they are enslaved. As in depending on just how rude and bitchy they are determines whether or not they get tied up, whipped and/or fucked or not, to show them their mouth won't be tolerated and submission leads to an easier time, lol. Fear and Anger numbers don't stay tho, I've seen them go up and down all depending on their actual mood and whether or not they just got the whip, or got shit fucked out of em' for being mouthy. I am definitely going to have to go on a slave hunt and get some fresh meat to test this out cause all my current slaves across all my slaver chars, are either at 100sub/100sex or damn close to it and are either TDF Prostitutes or sitting at a HSH location servicing my followers. Gotta try this out on some fresh meat for sure and not transfer the test subjects to HSH at all cause if I do, then I transfer them back, they have 0 fear and 0 anger and only their sub, respect, combat, sex and pose numbers stick. Oh, and please for the love of Dibella do not make it so you have to tie up a slave to rape them, cause I have enough trouble getting the right animations to play while a slave is tied up as it is and half the time it starts one animation then jumps to another one and locks out all the rest making it a royal pain in the ass to get more than one single animation to play for each of the "tied" dialog options. I've tried changing and adjusting every single setting in SexLab and even tried using SLU+ and it still fucks up over half the time when trying to have sex with a tied up slave. So PLEASE I'm begging you do not make animations fail if a slave is not tied up under any circumstances PLEASE, it'll cause even more headaches. I have almost 1k sexlab animations and I'd say the vast majority of those are aggressive animations with probably 1/3 or maybe even 1/2 of them being "bound" animations, BUT, for whatever reason SexLab is a royal pain in the ass when it comes to actually selecting and making animations available for selection to be used in a scene with a npc that is in any kind of real true "tied up/bound/restrained" stated. At least 1/2 of the time that I use the "Tie you up" dialog option in PAHE to tie up a slave, then use the "punish" dialog to choose the "all tied up refuse me now" option to get the "let's see how rebellious you are after I ream your ass" to actually start a sex scene, OMFG SexLab has a spaz attack and starts off using one "bound/restrained" animations then suddenly flips to a completely different "bound/restrained" animation right as the fun starts, which always results in that being the only animation in the popup window when hitting the key to choose what animation you want to play after the scene starts. This happens way more then it should and I've pretty much gotten into a habit of only tieing up a slave right before whipping their ass so they don't get pushed all over the place from "being hit". Or I'll tie on up to keep them somewhere while I go do something else, or to raise their pose level, but I've almost stopped tieing them up before starting sex with them because of the shit that keeps happening when I do. Sadly nothing I have tried has done anything to reduce or solve the issue and honestly it gets really boring really fast when SL forces you into the same ol' bound/restrained animation over and over just because the npc is tied up. So please please please don't make that change . (went as far as removing the single animation that SL kept forcing me into to see if it would choose another one, but nope it failed completely then as no animations were available despite having almost 1k of the goddamn things installed .)
Martok73 Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 7 hours ago, CliftonJD said: ya, my biggest pet peeve on dialogue writing always get the feeling its not the right thing should be said or doesn't seem immersive so a nice idea could sit on the shelf sometimes just for lack of the right feeling to the dialogue. like oh you're so tied up you can't object if i enslave you now<then bam she's a slave> I know the feeling all to well, and I concur with that statement as it is very similar to what shows up on occasion when you tie up a npc thru SL Defeats Knockdown function. Whether or not that specific dialog is part of Defeat itself and it just "sees" someone has PAHE installed and triggers it to show up giving the option to "take them with you" aka enslave them or not only you can answer cause I don't know if you put that in PAHE or if it's part of Defeat tbh. But I really really like the idea of it and having it available when it decides to show up, (doesn't always show up for all my characters). 43 minutes ago, Leoosp said: @CliftonJD The feature requires the use of Mod Events in Papyrus API to access, and I have had an really bad experience with the editor of Oblivion in the past. Given that Skyrim is in part the same engine, I'm seriously wary of it. So as a result I don't know, but if the slaves are using EFF as a form of something like a follower then it would be at a base level. It just re-assigns where the "home" (residence) location is. Basically where they return to when they are dismissed can be re-assigned through EFF. So if re-assigning the home location of any slaves it its used on, breaks them with "My Home is Your Home" mod then it will too. If however it is something else done in MHiYH or the way it re-assigns the home location, then it may be different. HSH does part of what you are asking for already, as it "sets their base location". Slaves do have to manually be taken to a HSH Location where you have placed a "cell" and told to stay there, but once done they will sandbox quite effectively and HSH opens up a crap-ton of other options as well for each slave you have in that "cell". I can verify and attest that MYiYH will fuck up a slave beyond repair from my own personal experience with it. Which results in literally having to console command markfordelete the victim of the FUBAR. So with the majority of follower framework mods using very similar methods for "setting home base" of a follower, where they will return to when dismissed, as what MYiYH uses, I would bet that there is a 99.9% probability of using any said follower framework "home base" function on a slave would in turn FUBAR them the exact same way that MYiYH does. So what I personally would recommend is if you are making a custom house for the purpose of containing a large number of slaves, then make sure to make the "holding cells" in your dungeon section large enough to house the "house cell token" from HSH. Make sure tho that you do not add more than 10 total cells to hold your slaves via separate "cell tokens" as you can only have a total of 10 permanent house/camp cells active at one time in the game world. What I do is I find whatever location I am going to hold slaves in for training I place one house cell token, remove the actual cage/cell that surrounds it, leaving just the little strong box that activates the menu. Then using that menu I place markers around the location where I want them to sandbox, sleep, work, train, etc. so I don't have many cell tokens in one location and can have multiple "training camps" so to speak, and also have locations for the "good house slaves" to go to when they are fully trained. Anyway that's my suggestion, and I know it's not exactly what you are looking for, but at least it's close . I just wish I could find a nice big house mod with a good sized lower level dungeon where I could place a few cells and bedding and my own devices to customize it instead of just finding these big houses with very small dungeons/holding cells that are not really good for a lot slaves at one time. I like the addon for Lakeview Manor, but it's got a nasty bug right now with the fishing mod form the Creation Club/AE that causes a grey wall to appear that I can't get rid of and honestly I'm kinda getting tired of having to house all my slaves there cause it's the only place big enough for more than ten slaves at a time and I really don't have other viable options. So if you are making a custom house mod with a slave dungeon and you make it big and empty for people to add in their own DD/ZAZ furniture that's be so freakin awesome I'd be one of the first to download and test it .
bnub345 Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 @Martok73 I'm not going to attempt to pull a quote out of that novel, but the "I'm going to fuck you" dialogue has a check for consensual/noncon outcomes. If the slave has high enough stats, they should willingly agree and go to the consensual dialog tree. If not, you go to the noncon dialogue tree. I think Antiope's point was that slaves still fail the consensual check even at very high stats. 1
CliftonJD Posted January 21, 2022 Author Posted January 21, 2022 8 hours ago, Leoosp said: The feature requires the use of Mod Events in Papyrus API to access, and I have had an really bad experience with the editor of Oblivion in the past. Given that Skyrim is in part the same engine, I'm seriously wary of it. So as a result I don't know, but if the slaves are using EFF as a form of something like a follower then it would be at a base level. It just re-assigns where the "home" (residence) location is. Basically where they return to when they are dismissed can be re-assigned through EFF. but slaves don't normally return anywhere when dismissed. dismissal of slaves can either execute them or turn them into a vegetable. slaves don't use eff as a form of anything and its been said that forcing them to use it can cause problems. would you really want to risk breaking your save to force them into eff management just to be able to send them some place as a home for them to stand there like a vegetable. not really much difference between that and a mannequin 7 hours ago, Martok73 said: Then there is the "Strip now slave I'm going to have some fun with you" option that has 3 options under it, 1st option "Come here and give me some attention" is flagged as consensual and does not trigger rape in SexLab and most of the time doesn't show aggressive animations, but on occasion I have some bleed thru as choices. 2nd option is "Time to get a little rough" which is flagged as aggressive sex in SexLab but not exactly rape because it primarily uses aggressive animations but for the most part I get a message in the upper left showing something to the effect of "genereic npc name, pushes against you and cries out" or something similar. While the 3rd option tells them to masturbate those are all from another mod, likely from hsh with the option selected for pahe slave dialogs in the hsh mcm 7 hours ago, Martok73 said: What dialog option are you specifically using to have sex with your slaves? For me I have 3 different options all from PAHE to initiate sex with slaves. There is the "you need to be punished" option that will rape the slave, there is also the option that is under the "Ok, slave" dialog which is "I'm going to fuck you" which also counts as rape but with different animation options as opposed to the punishment option. those are the pahe options. if you go over the dialog conditions listed above, you can see the odds for the dialog to be consenting versus rape 7 hours ago, Martok73 said: far as PAHE is concerned I have never had an animation "Not" play when using any of the different ways to start a sex scene with a slave in PAHE dialog, not one single time has it failed regardless of how much sex training they have or how high their submission level is. i think Antiope_Apollonia is referring to consenting options, not that the animation won't play 8 hours ago, Martok73 said: So how come trolls, dwemer contraptions, and forgot the other thing listed in the MCM, work just fine to enslave but the giants cause issues? dunno, could be their size or that they're so tall they don't fit thru doorways, or that they so tall they hit their head on the ceiling if you get them inside, or could even be they're skeleton and related animations aren't compatible with pahe behavior packages 8 hours ago, Martok73 said: Enslaving a mechanical construct has always seemed really weird to me as they technically are not alive as they have soul gems inside to control their functions. enslaving the dwarven automatons has an exception against centurions, but most others seem ok 8 hours ago, Martok73 said: So, defeat is supposed to have the dialog then and just sometimes bugs out and doesn't show it? Am I understanding that statement correctly? that's about as much as i understand of it as well 8 hours ago, Martok73 said: Ok so this is confusing as hell, lol. Are you basically saying that while a slave is under PAHE control, depending on submission level, current fear level, current anger level, and sex level, all determines which dialog options show up in the conversation menu to initiate sex with a slave? Am I understanding that correctly? close, but none depend on their current fear level, but their current emotion and looks like only 1 uses their anger training level 8 hours ago, Martok73 said: Fear and Anger numbers don't stay tho, I've seen them go up and down all depending on their actual mood and whether or not they just got the whip, or got shit fucked out of em' for being mouthy. under normal pahe those numbers stay based on the basic pah code. if those aren't staying for you, that's likely a bug in dom. this here: 8 hours ago, Martok73 said: Gotta try this out on some fresh meat for sure and not transfer the test subjects to HSH at all cause if I do, then I transfer them back, they have 0 fear and 0 anger and only their sub, respect, combat, sex and pose numbers stick. also sounds like a dom bug. normally hsh ignores those traits, but they remain as if those stats go into hibernation until returning to pahe 8 hours ago, Martok73 said: Oh, and please for the love of Dibella do not make it so you have to tie up a slave to rape them, cause I have enough trouble getting the right animations to play while a slave is tied up as it is and half the time it starts one animation then jumps to another one and locks out all the rest making it a royal pain in the ass to get more than one single animation to play for each of the "tied" dialog options. I've tried changing and adjusting every single setting in SexLab and even tried using SLU+ and it still fucks up over half the time when trying to have sex with a tied up slave. So PLEASE I'm begging you do not make animations fail if a slave is not tied up under any circumstances PLEASE, it'll cause even more headaches. I have almost 1k sexlab animations and I'd say the vast majority of those are aggressive animations with probably 1/3 or maybe even 1/2 of them being "bound" animations, BUT, for whatever reason SexLab is a royal pain in the ass when it comes to actually selecting and making animations available for selection to be used in a scene with a npc that is in any kind of real true "tied up/bound/restrained" stated. At least 1/2 of the time that I use the "Tie you up" dialog option in PAHE to tie up a slave, then use the "punish" dialog to choose the "all tied up refuse me now" option to get the "let's see how rebellious you are after I ream your ass" to actually start a sex scene, OMFG SexLab has a spaz attack and starts off using one "bound/restrained" animations then suddenly flips to a completely different "bound/restrained" animation right as the fun starts, which always results in that being the only animation in the popup window when hitting the key to choose what animation you want to play after the scene starts. This happens way more then it should and I've pretty much gotten into a habit of only tieing up a slave right before whipping their ass so they don't get pushed all over the place from "being hit". Or I'll tie on up to keep them somewhere while I go do something else, or to raise their pose level, but I've almost stopped tieing them up before starting sex with them because of the shit that keeps happening when I do. Sadly nothing I have tried has done anything to reduce or solve the issue and honestly it gets really boring really fast when SL forces you into the same ol' bound/restrained animation over and over just because the npc is tied up. So please please please don't make that change . (went as far as removing the single animation that SL kept forcing me into to see if it would choose another one, but nope it failed completely then as no animations were available despite having almost 1k of the goddamn things installed .) ok, was requested in the dom thread a while back, but i been tied up with other things so never got round to it. could see your point tho, get tired of the stupid sexlab filters myself. really hate that the people in charge of installing said filters have opted out of the filter being optional as it was in the past. lol, i've half the mind to crack the case on their filter and compare it to older filter to make it optional again as it was before 8 hours ago, Martok73 said: Whether or not that specific dialog is part of Defeat itself and it just "sees" someone has PAHE installed and triggers it to show up giving the option to "take them with you" aka enslave them or not only you can answer cause I don't know if you put that in PAHE or if it's part of Defeat tbh. But I really really like the idea of it and having it available when it decides to show up, (doesn't always show up for all my characters). i think the part of defeat that's used to detect if pah is installed might have the same buggy detection as i've heard ppl get with aygas detecting the mods in its mcm 1
Example John Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 On 1/20/2022 at 3:31 AM, CliftonJD said: if you're getting the restart button, you're getting the mcm. other options are blocked if the mod isn't running. trouble getting it to boot would be an issue with a stopped up papyrus. post the log if you need further help Hi Clifton, Thanks for your reply. As requested here is my papyrus log. I first started SexLab, then I tried to start paradise halls. next i tried to enslave a bandit which it diddn't allow me to. Papyrus.0.log
CliftonJD Posted January 21, 2022 Author Posted January 21, 2022 47 minutes ago, Example John said: Hi Clifton, Thanks for your reply. As requested here is my papyrus log. I first started SexLab, then I tried to start paradise halls. next i tried to enslave a bandit which it diddn't allow me to. Papyrus.0.log 6.26 MB · 1 download according to the log you either didn't install both bsa files or you installed the bsa files, but unpacked 1 and not the other causing the unpacked files to overwrite the packed files so neither can work properly. now you either need to reinstall it and choose to install all the bsa files this time or you need to remove the unpacked files to allow the bsa's to work as intended
Martok73 Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 3 hours ago, bnub345 said: @Martok73 I'm not going to attempt to pull a quote out of that novel, but the "I'm going to fuck you" dialogue has a check for consensual/noncon outcomes. If the slave has high enough stats, they should willingly agree and go to the consensual dialog tree. If not, you go to the noncon dialogue tree. I think Antiope's point was that slaves still fail the consensual check even at very high stats. Sorry but I tried to put everything in one post so as to not have multiple ones, sorry. Anyway I'm abit confused about that because from my own experience anytime I use the "I'm going to fuck you" dialog option that is under the "Ok, slave" dialog tree, no matter what the slaves stats are any of the sex options have been flagged as aggressive in SL and listed as rape resulting in the "end of rape" animations playing. I've never had any of the "I'm going to fuck you" options under that selection count as consensual in SL even with slaves with 100 sub/resp/sex, so really confused on that. 1 hour ago, CliftonJD said: those are all from another mod, likely from hsh with the option selected for pahe slave dialogs in the hsh mcm So you're saying that the "Strip now I'm going to have some fun with you" dialog tree and all 3 options listed under it are from HSH and not PAHE? Damn never knew that, always thought it was one of your features cause it really works well and fits seamlessly into the slave dialog menus and is completely lore friendly especially for fully submissive trained sex slaves . Good to know. 1 hour ago, CliftonJD said: those are the pahe options. if you go over the dialog conditions listed above, you can see the odds for the dialog to be consenting versus rape So the only dialog options actually added and controlled by PAHE is the one listed under the "You need to be punished" dialog tree, which for me at least is always registered as aggressive and rape in SL. And the other one that is listed under the "Ok, Slave" dialog tree which also for me has never resulted in any animations regardless of which ones are chosen being flagged as consensual in SL and have always for me at least been flagged as aggressive in SL resulting in the nice little "post rape" animations playing and also increasing the "# of times as Aggressor" counter going up, and the "Last Victim" being shown as whatever base type npcs the current slave I just fucked was. SO if I am understanding you correctly then the only dialog sex option that should be 100% rape all the time is the one that is shown under the "You need to be punished" tree is that correct? And the dialog option to start sex that is listed under the "Ok Slave" tree has a should actually have a chance to be consensual and not flagged as aggressive in SL resulting in the counters going up and the "post rape" scene playing, is that correct? If I understand you right, then I for sure am having some kind of bug happening because none of those dialog options to start sex ever result in consensual sex flags in SL and always gets flagged as aggressor/victim increasing those counters in SL 100% of the time no matter how high the slaves stats are and this includes fully trained slaves with 100 in sub/respect/sex. My dialog options for what type, ie oral/vaginal/anal, only change if the slave is restrained via the "I'm going to tie you up" or the "I'm going to make sure you stay here" dialog options and never change because of the slaves stats. 2 hours ago, CliftonJD said: i think Antiope_Apollonia is referring to consenting options, not that the animation won't play Ahh ok, well that makes abit more sense then. 2 hours ago, CliftonJD said: dunno, could be their size or that they're so tall they don't fit thru doorways, or that they so tall they hit their head on the ceiling if you get them inside, or could even be they're skeleton and related animations aren't compatible with pahe behavior packages LOL, so we can fuck giants but can't reliably enslave them without risking weird shit happening to the rest of the "free" giants, ok, that's just funny as hell, strange but funny as hell. ?. 2 hours ago, CliftonJD said: enslaving the dwarven automatons has an exception against centurions, but most others seem ok Ok, makes sense I suppose but still seems weird to me, lol. 2 hours ago, CliftonJD said: that's about as much as i understand of it as well Ok, good to know, would be nice tho if there was a way as you had mentioned before to add in a check for "tied" status or DD items making a dialog option show up to be able to enslave someone via dialog like that. Would be a very nice and immersive addition imho. 2 hours ago, CliftonJD said: close, but none depend on their current fear level, but their current emotion and looks like only 1 uses their anger training level Ok, makes sense but unfortunately no matter what those numbers are for me the afore mentioned dialog options never change and are always the same, so perhaps a bug but not sure what would cause it. 2 hours ago, CliftonJD said: under normal pahe those numbers stay based on the basic pah code. if those aren't staying for you, that's likely a bug in dom. this here: I don't have DoM at all so it can't be that causing the numbers to go away. The Fear stat shown when using the Slave Info spell and the Anger stat shown by the same spell goes up or down while the npc is controlled by PAHE, but as soon as I transfer them to HSH, if I move them back to PAHE for whatever reason then the stat is shown as 0 when looking at it with the Slave Info spell. Perhaps the bug is being caused by transferring the slave to HSH and then back to PAHE? Not sure but should not be happening either way if I am understanding you correctly. 2 hours ago, CliftonJD said: also sounds like a dom bug. normally hsh ignores those traits, but they remain as if those stats go into hibernation until returning to pahe Yeah, again I don't have DoM so can't be that. I did not know that HSH ignores those stats tho and they are supposed to stick. Another HSH bug maybe? 2 hours ago, CliftonJD said: ok, was requested in the dom thread a while back, but i been tied up with other things so never got round to it. could see your point tho, get tired of the stupid sexlab filters myself. really hate that the people in charge of installing said filters have opted out of the filter being optional as it was in the past. lol, i've half the mind to crack the case on their filter and compare it to older filter to make it optional again as it was before The guy that made SLU+ added several filters of his own and I've tried using those to "fix" the fubar filter in SL but have had no luck, so if you decide to crack it and make the SL Filter optional again resulting in all animations being available for every scene via the popup menu, holy fuck batman that would be amazing. It makes it even more annoying when the people that make the animations throw every goddamn tag onto each animation so that no filter stops them from showing up in a scene. Not naming names but I know you know which animators I'm referring to as their animations show up ALL the damn time no matter if it's consensual, rape, or otherwise and it's really damn annoying. 2 hours ago, CliftonJD said: i think the part of defeat that's used to detect if pah is installed might have the same buggy detection as i've heard ppl get with aygas detecting the mods in its mcm Going back to what we discussed earlier, maybe you can come up with a way to add in checks for DD/ZAZ items or a "Tied" stat and have a similar dialog option popup to allow for a really cool and immersive way to enslave someone. BTW bro, really enjoying the conversations and the passion and dedication you put into making this mod the best it can be, it is greatly appreciated, I just wish we had more modders that were half as passionate and dedicated as you, we'd be in such a better place if we did . When's the next version? *grin* *wink* 1
Antiope_Apollonia Posted January 22, 2022 Posted January 22, 2022 (edited) 19 hours ago, bnub345 said: If you are using the option to not clone unique NPCs they will still use their vanilla lines. [...] Might be what is going on with Alva. I'm not using that option. 19 hours ago, CliftonJD said: the cap is over 800, but there's a faction limit that breaks around 250 or so. next update sets the cap down to 150 or 175 so we don't exceed the game's faction limit and lose all that training My experience has been that Combat caps at 900. I've never been clear on what the advantage of combat training >100 is supposed to be, though. I thought about the possibility of using it to let the slaves level up, perhaps; e.g., cap it at 200, and when they hit the cap, increase their level by one and roll combat back to 100. Might need to scale the rate of training post-100 down somewhat to keep it from getting out of balance. 19 hours ago, CliftonJD said: seems a balance is already set in place leaning towards a mix between emotion and training. think this would be where i pointed out in the Le thread that fear tends to get you what you want more while anger will tend to get opposition and rebellion. I'm not completely sure I know how to interpret your list, but it looks like it's basically a list of binary checks, right? I'd have expected a formula that scales the chance of consent based on such factors rather than a bunch of nested If→Then→Else commands or whatever. As I sit and think about it now, I'm not sure which approach is better. I instinctively started writing that I think it should be a scaling formula, but I can see the logic of doing it in a more binary way. But I think at least partly decoupling consent from Sex training becomes even more imperative if you're doing it that way. Think about—or, better yet, take a slave and try it—the training path for sex if you don't use rape right now. It's really weird, and it feels terrible both in terms of gameplay engagement and in terms of realism. You have to increase sex training by punishing refusal to have sex in order to have a chance to have sex. And not a little bit—it takes a bunch of iterations to get sex training into the range that satisfies any of your conditions. Which is just weird. How does punishing defiance make the slave better at sex? If you're not punishing with rape, punishing for no_sex should likely have an increased impact on Submission training but little to no impact on Sex training, so the Sex training from rape should come from some other condition. I'm not sure it wouldn't ultimately be better to use some function to calculate consent probability, but maybe the solution would just be to re-evaluate these conditions: 19 hours ago, CliftonJD said: no anger with a sub 80 or more and a sex training 50 or more leads to consent no anger and sub of 90 or more and a sex training 60 or more leads to consent I'm not sure if there's a typo here, or if the second option is just redundant, but it looks like the first option strictly dominates the second. Setting that aside, then there's this: 19 hours ago, CliftonJD said: no anger with sub 70 or more and sex training 30 or less leads to consent So is this saying that they'll consent early, and then start refusing as their training progresses? That makes no sense. At any rate, I maintain that sexual prowess shouldn't be a key factor in determining consent. How about doing something like this? Set "Angry" mood = -20 Set "Fearful" mood = +20 If Submission + Sex + Mood ≥ 95, then consent That would give you broadly similar results overall. Consent would be slightly easier on the whole, but I'm pretty convinced it needs to be. For people who respond to refusal with rape, both training stats will progress together, and the results will be similar to the conditions you've outlined, but for people who do not, then high Submission + low Sex will still be able to result in consent the same way moderate Submission + moderate Sex currently appears to. Or maybe it could be made a little more strict than that, but then @TrollAutokill could apply bigger modifiers DoM's additional moods. "Broken", "Shocked", and "Terrified" are all added by DoM, right?—in addition to "In Love" and "Loyal". Something like this: Set "Angry" mood = -20 Set "Fearful" and "Shocked" moods = +20 Set "Broken" and "Terrified" moods = +40 Set "In Love" and "Loyal" moods = +60 If Submission + Sex + Mood ≥ 135, then consent. That would produce results that seem much more reasonable and allow for multiple valid training/roleplaying strategies. It is both more simpler than the much longer list of conditions you gave and yet also more flexible—ultimately, it seems a much more elegant approach. 19 hours ago, CliftonJD said: also planning on working in a system where the rape topics become flat out refusal topics with a change to the punishment options that you would need to tie them down to get the rape options That sounds interesting. Beware that this could create a problem for lesbian players, though, as there are virtually no female–female bound animations available currently. As I sit here writing this, I should probably really be instead finishing my PM to the legendary Billyy that will hopefully help him fill that gap, so maybe it won't be an issue in the long run, but right now, it definitely could be. 19 hours ago, CliftonJD said: think we would classify this as a reaction to player actions so i'm removing that option from the slaves behavior for next update Sounds good! 19 hours ago, CliftonJD said: i remember helping to make it work Any guidance you want to give me on how you accomplished that would be welcome. ? 19 hours ago, CliftonJD said: ya, my biggest pet peeve on dialogue writing always get the feeling its not the right thing should be said or doesn't seem immersive so a nice idea could sit on the shelf sometimes just for lack of the right feeling to the dialogue. like oh you're so tied up you can't object if i enslave you now<then bam she's a slave> Well, if you want to build this idea into PAHE core, I'd be happy to take care of all the writing if you can handle the implementation. I'll send you a PM soon™ on the subject. 5 hours ago, bnub345 said: @Martok73 I'm not going to attempt to pull a quote out of that novel, but the "I'm going to fuck you" dialogue has a check for consensual/noncon outcomes. If the slave has high enough stats, they should willingly agree and go to the consensual dialog tree. If not, you go to the noncon dialogue tree. I think Antiope's point was that slaves still fail the consensual check even at very high stats. Exactly. The "You, strip! I'm going to have some fun with you" dialogue is from HSH and evidently isn't fully integrated with core PAHE and DoM mechanics. Aside from the fact that it has no consent check at all, which is unimmersive, it also doesn't count for falling in love and things like that. Basically, it should be avoided in favour of "Ok slave..." → "I'm going to fuck you" if you want everything else to work as designed. I don't know where the other dialogue comes from, but it isn't PAHE or DoM, either—SLEN maybe? dunno; I don't use it—so it should probably also be avoided. Edited January 22, 2022 by Antiope_Apollonia 1
Antiope_Apollonia Posted January 22, 2022 Posted January 22, 2022 1 hour ago, Martok73 said: Sorry but I tried to put everything in one post so as to not have multiple ones, sorry. Post length isn't the problem. It's the lack of paragraphs. It's really hard to follow your huge blocks of text without any structure. Some judicious use of paragraphs would improve the readability of your posts tenfold. Take it from someone else who's no stranger to the Walls-o'-Text™.
Martok73 Posted January 22, 2022 Posted January 22, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: Think about—or, better yet, take a slave and try it—the training path for sex if you don't use rape right now. It's really weird, and it feels terrible both in terms of gameplay engagement and in terms of realism. You have to increase sex training by punishing refusal to have sex in order to have a chance to have sex. And not a little bit—it takes a bunch of iterations to get sex training into the range that satisfies any of your conditions. Which is just weird. How does punishing defiance make the slave better at sex? If you're not punishing with rape, punishing for no_sex should likely have an increased impact on Submission training but little to no impact on Sex training, so the Sex training from rape should come from some other condition. With the clarifications as to which mod adds the "Strip now I'm going to have some fun with you" dialog option that gives the ability to increase sex training without "raping" the slave, that is a perfectly viable and realistic way to do it imho anyway. That line of dialog is added by HSH with the option of "give pahe slaves additional dialog" setting in the HSH MCM. I actually prefer using that dialog to start sex with most of my slaves to raise their training as opposed to the other two options honestly. As it gives both options for semi-consensual, and aggressive/rape sex scenes at the same time, and the slaves do not have a negative reaction to it either from what I have noticed. 1 hour ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: virtually no female–female bound animations available currently Although I do not want this feature for reason already explained, however this is resolved at least somewhat if the setting for females to use strap-ons is enabled in the SL MCM as female players will use a strap-on when playing any bound scene with another female npc. 1 hour ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: Well, if you want to build this idea into PAHE core, I'd be happy to take care of all the writing if you can handle the implementation. I'll send you a PM soon™ on the subject. Just talked to him about this with the dialog that SL Defeat "sometimes" shows if PAHE is installed and it actually detects it correctly that does indeed give the enslavement option via dialog. If you can work with Clifton and make a good sounding dialog choice to enslave a npc thru a dialog option if that npc is already tied up or wearing certain DD/ZAZ devices then that would be totally fucking awesome. The dialog that Defeat has that only shows up sometimes when it feels like it is "I'm taking you with me (enslave with PAHE)" which the dialog works when it shows up, but it could be better worded. 1 hour ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: Exactly. The "You, strip! I'm going to have some fun with you" dialogue is from HSH and evidently isn't fully integrated with core PAHE and DoM mechanics. Aside from the fact that it has no consent check at all, which is unimmersive, it also doesn't count for falling in love and things like that. Basically, it should be avoided in favour of "Ok slave..." → "I'm going to fuck you" if you want everything else to work as designed. I don't know where the other dialogue comes from, but it isn't PAHE or DoM, either—SLEN maybe? dunno; I don't use it—so it should probably also be avoided. See here's my issue with that, to me the wording is very immersive because it basically tells the slave that they are going to comply and pleasure their master/mistress whether they want to do it or not, otherwise face the consequences of refusal and non-compliance. So to me it is a semi-consensual thing as in reality most slaves in real life will comply with requests for sex just to avoid being beaten or worse even if they don't like it and do not really want to, they will still comply. It's a survival mechanism the brain engages to deal with the enslavement, the lesser of two evils in a manner of speaking. Honestly the other option under the "Ok Slave" tree of "I'm going to fuck you" no matter what checks the mod makes in the background is worded in a way that could not even remotely be construed as consensual at all, regardless of how "in love" a slave is or how much they are suffering from Stockholm Syndrone either. I mean would you walk up to a person that is in love with you and say "I'm going to fuck you"? I know I wouldn't cause it would most likely not end well. Anyway I do not use DoM, nor SLEN either, I only use PAHE and HSH, so the dialog that doesn't come from PAHE has to come from HSH and according to Clifton the only dialog that comes from HSH is the "Strip, I'm going to have some fun with you", leading into the semi-consensual/compliant option, aggressive option, and masturbation options being shown. Anyway if immersion is really the goal for people that do use DoM and their "Stockholm Syndrone" "In Love" slaves, (no offense but that is what they are as it is not possible for a captor/captive relationship to involve actual real loving feelings according to many doctors anyway), then the wording for the dialog option to start any kind of true consensual sex scene will have to be changed form "Ok slave," "I'm going to fuck you", to something alot less aggressive that has no other way to take it but as a demand, as opposed to an offer of sex, otherwise no matter what checks and balances are in place to trigger the consensual animations in SL, the dialog wording itself will break any and all immersion that may be had with a sensual loving animation. Just an idea off the top of my head here as to dialog that would give the idea of at least the illusion of a slave having a choice and consent could be something like this: "Come, let us make hot passionate love together" or "Come, let us be alone for awhile". In my opinion at least those lines of dialog would at the very least give a slave the illusion that they actually have a choice of whether to have sex with their master/mistress or not. Instead of the current dialog option which is very blunt and demanding with "I'm going to fuck you" which in no way shape or form would ever leave anyone hearing that line to believe they even remotely have a choice in the matter at all. So yeah, if you want truly consensual choices with actual immersive consent then the dialog will have to change to reflect that cause as it stands now it ain't never gonna be truly consensual no matter what animations are playing nor how SL flags it for it's counters and statistics, nor "immersive" either for anyone trying to roleplay as a "kind" slave owner (they don't exist in reality btw regardless of how a slave is treated they are still a slave which is not "kind"). Sorry for the "Novel" but just my two cents worth and humble opinion . 49 minutes ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: Post length isn't the problem. It's the lack of paragraphs. It's really hard to follow your huge blocks of text without any structure. Some judicious use of paragraphs would improve the readability of your posts tenfold. Take it from someone else who's no stranger to the Walls-o'-Text™. Sorry I try but yeah sometimes it bugs out for me and won't let me do multiple quotes and sometimes it bugs out when I try to put alot of quotes in the same post. Sorry, I'm old and my mind doesn't work right after having 2 strokes. Edited January 22, 2022 by Martok73
CliftonJD Posted January 22, 2022 Author Posted January 22, 2022 1 hour ago, Martok73 said: I for sure am having some kind of bug happening because none of those dialog options to start sex ever result in consensual sex flags in SL and always gets flagged as aggressor/victim increasing those counters in SL 100% of the time no matter how high the slaves stats are and this includes fully trained slaves with 100 in sub/respect/sex. My dialog options for what type, ie oral/vaginal/anal, only change if the slave is restrained via the "I'm going to tie you up" or the "I'm going to make sure you stay here" dialog options and never change because of the slaves stats. that to me indicates a sl filter is preventing you from getting consenting animations, that you had the consenting dialogs already and only saw them different when the options are limited to aggressive/rape sex--"if the slave is restrained via the "I'm going to tie you up" or the "I'm going to make sure you stay here" dialog options"<<that. while all the other methods leave a chance at rape or consenting, tied slaves only get raped. so if that's the only time you saw the options change, then something was preventing you from seeing the correct animations during consenting situations 2 hours ago, Martok73 said: would be nice tho if there was a way as you had mentioned before to add in a check for "tied" status or DD items making a dialog option show up to be able to enslave someone via dialog like that. Would be a very nice and immersive addition imho. mentioned that on the previous page, its coming soon for zaz to compliment hydra slaves. 2 hours ago, Martok73 said: soon as I transfer them to HSH, if I move them back to PAHE for whatever reason then the stat is shown as 0 when looking at it with the Slave Info spell. Perhaps the bug is being caused by transferring the slave to HSH and then back to PAHE? Not sure but should not be happening either way if I am understanding you correctly. hmm, wonder if that's another temporary display bug like the sex stat that hsh used to have issues with. maybe its self-correcting if you check back later 2 hours ago, Martok73 said: When's the next version? *grin* *wink* soon..unless i keep getting more requests for a bigger update 1 hour ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: My experience has been that Combat caps at 900. I've never been clear on what the advantage of combat training >100 is supposed to be, though. I thought about the possibility of using it to let the slaves level up, perhaps; e.g., cap it at 200, and when they hit the cap, increase their level by one and roll combat back to 100. Might need to scale the rate of training post-100 down somewhat to keep it from getting out of balance. if the feature is working, their stats should increase as their combat training increases...but i have found what could be considered a bug preventing their combat training from increasing their stats. seems the regen health functions look at the base actor health so i might need to adjust that to cover their increased stats from training 1 hour ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: I'm not completely sure I know how to interpret your list, but it looks like it's basically a list of binary checks, right? 1 hour ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: 20 hours ago, CliftonJD said: no anger with a sub 80 or more and a sex training 50 or more leads to consent no anger and sub of 90 or more and a sex training 60 or more leads to consent I'm not sure if there's a typo here, or if the second option is just redundant, but it looks like the first option strictly dominates the second. Setting that aside, then there's this: 20 hours ago, CliftonJD said: no anger with sub 70 or more and sex training 30 or less leads to consent So is this saying that they'll consent early, and then start refusing as their training progresses? That makes no sense. binary checks would sum it up well, but each of those lists of conditions is set on a dialog as random chance so if the slave meets more than 1 group, its more chance that it will get that outcome. if you look at the consenting lists against the non consenting lists, you might even find times where a slave could meet the conditions for both options, so when you're looking for consent, it becomes beneficial for it to meet the criteria for more than 1 consenting dialogue. 1 hour ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: Think about—or, better yet, take a slave and try it—the training path for sex if you don't use rape right now. It's really weird, and it feels terrible both in terms of gameplay engagement and in terms of realism. You have to increase sex training by punishing refusal to have sex in order to have a chance to have sex. And not a little bit—it takes a bunch of iterations to get sex training into the range that satisfies any of your conditions. Which is just weird. How does punishing defiance make the slave better at sex? If you're not punishing with rape, punishing for no_sex should likely have an increased impact on Submission training but little to no impact on Sex training, so the Sex training from rape should come from some other condition. if sex training were limited to the quality of performance, it would just match the stats already given by sl, but including the training for disobeying a sexual command rather than pushing it into submission when pah is already loaded with submission training...would leave even less sex training and less ways to evaluate what that submission is for and how that submission effects what's taking place. 1 hour ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: At any rate, I maintain that sexual prowess shouldn't be a key factor in determining consent. recheck the list, its not the primary factor, but instead increases the odds. without it all we have is emotion Spoiler 2 options for fear with a submission 60 or higher for consenting options fear with a submission 60 or higher and sex training 40 or more gives consenting options fear with sub 70 or more gives consenting options another for fear with 50 or higher gives consenting options respectful with sub 90 or higher leads to consenting options no anger with a sub 80 or more and a sex training 50 or more leads to consent no anger and sub of 90 or more and a sex training 60 or more leads to consent no anger with sub 70 or more and sex training 30 or less leads to consent 2 options for no anger with a sub 60 or higher and sex training 40 or less lead to rape topics 2 options for anger with sub 60 or higher leading to rape anger with sub 60 or more and a sex training 60 or less leads to rape anger with sub 60 or more and sex training 50 or more leads to rape anger with sub 60 or less and anger 60 or less leads to rape no anger and sub 70 or less with sex training 50 or less leads to rape 2 options for no anger with sub 60 or less and sex training 30 or less leading to rape another option for sub 60 or less and sex training 30 or less without emotional bias leading to rape fear with sub 70 or higher and sex training 40 or less leads to rape no fear and no anger with sub 70 or higher leads to rape 2 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: How about doing something like this? Set "Angry" mood = -20 Set "Fearful" mood = +20 If Submission + Sex + Mood ≥ 95, then consent first mood is binary and you can't have both more than 1 emotion at a time. either the slave is afraid or they're angry or they're normal. numbers on emotions are how much they've been trained at that. next everything above is written into the dialogs as random chance, its not hard-coded into the scripts as your formula would require 2 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: Consent would be slightly easier on the whole, but I'm pretty convinced it needs to be. you're forgetting slaves would naturally be more difficult than they already are. currently they already consent to a sexual punishment about 99% of the time when they're not tied up. like they have a way of showing preference to it over the whip, while sex just for having sex would make sense to be more difficult to achieve consent 2 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: could apply bigger modifiers DoM's additional moods. "Broken", "Shocked", and "Terrified" are all added by DoM, right?—in addition to "In Love" and "Loyal". Something like this: Set "Angry" mood = -20 Set "Fearful" and "Shocked" moods = +20 Set "Broken" and "Terrified" moods = +40 Set "In Love" and "Loyal" moods = +60 If Submission + Sex + Mood ≥ 135, then consent. pahe stores the factions for those other moods, but without any input from @TrollAutokill shocked and terrified seem equal to afraid, just as broken seems would get the same result in consenting sex as in love, but loyalty doesn't imply consent to sex. a soldier could be loyal to his/her commander and still not consent to sex. loyalty would be the skyrim equivalent to allied while in love would be married or potential marriage partner 2 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: That sounds interesting. Beware that this could create a problem for lesbian players, though, as there are virtually no female–female bound animations available currently. As I sit here writing this, I should probably really be instead finishing my PM to the legendary Billyy that will hopefully help him fill that gap, so maybe it won't be an issue in the long run, but right now, it definitely could be. ahh, thanks for pointing that out, i'd overlooked that 2 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: Any guidance you want to give me on how you accomplished that would be welcome. ? its listed as open source so you need only to follow the dialogue tree to the stage where she becomes enslaved to see the script name used. then look at the script source file with that name and open it with windows notepad. thinking i'll use a spell for this effect when the dialogue stage is reached for enslavement, an enslavement spell is cast on them...i haven't checked, maybe that's already how that mod was written. i provided the means for it to happen and what his script would need to do to achieve it, but left for him to decide how to reach that stage as you get more advanced you can learn other tools such as notepad++ 3 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: Well, if you want to build this idea into PAHE core, I'd be happy to take care of all the writing if you can handle the implementation. I'll send you a PM soon™ on the subject. ok, that works
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