Mods and Money!?

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

...

 

6 minutes ago, thedarkwanderer42 said:

...

Keep in mind that legal aspect are different game by game.

When you install Skyrim Special Edition from Steam and then Creation Kit 64 from Bethesda .net you agree, by clicking a button, that your mods belongs to Zenimax (the owner of Bethesda.)

This does not apply to Skyrim (Oldrim) or Oblivion or Fallout 3 and NV.

 

CDProjekt Red as a statement for ModKit that you can use it only for "Fair use" (at the end you cannot build a new game with it.)

Other game are not providing explicit modding tools so they just don't care about this subject.

 

But remember that using assets outside the "citation" and without authorization is illegal in most countries.

But that is not about the subject.

 

Now. Paywalls, paywalls, paywalls, ...

I fight with this subject all days of all weeks. And I start to be nauseated.

 

My rule:

- Are you giving something free (but not just a demo) and you are publicizing you payable contents here? ⇒ Fine for me.

- Are you just asking for money for something and never giving something free? ⇒ Go fuck yourself. Instaban.

- Are you providing shitty contents for money? ⇒ Ban again. And I, personally and outside LLab, do pledge lots of creators on Patreon just to check if the work offered is valid for the price.

 

[dagobaking]

16 minutes ago, CPU said:

 

When you install Skyrim Special Edition from Steam and then Creation Kit 64 from Bethesda .net you agree, by clicking a button, that your mods belongs to Zenimax (the owner of Bethesda.)

I would be interested in seeing the exact language they used for this.

 

I think it is doubtful that this would hold up in court considering that there are many cases of people even signing away their IP in contracts and still winning rights to them back later. The law favors (I think for good reason) a high standard for consent in transferring intellectual property. Clicking a Steam button I do not think a judge would find compelling enough to justify a transfer like that.

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

I would be interested in seeing the exact language they used for this.

 

I think it is doubtful that this would hold up in court considering that there are many cases of people even signing away their IP in contracts and still winning rights to them back later. The law favors (I think for good reason) a high standard for consent in transferring intellectual property. Clicking a Steam button I do not think a judge would find compelling enough to justify a transfer like that.

Hard to tell.

Will be just lawyer against lawyer.

 

It is for that reason that I limit a lot SSE and FO4 mods. (Edit: mods done by myself)

[DoctaSax]

 

1 hour ago, Halstrom said:

I should totally delete all my mods and get in the car and drive to Brisbane's biggest software games company and get a job instead of thinking of leeching off others to supplement my disability pension enough to buy a steak occasionally

Welfare? I could've guessed.  Get a job, you incense-burning peacenik. Or at the very least have the good grace to get involved with some type of volunteer work in a community that can find a use for whatever it is you're not a total shambles at...

 

1 hour ago, thedarkwanderer42 said:

mfw paid mods

That looks like a crappy definition, but then, I see webster's doesn't have an entry for 'modding', considering it's not anything important.

 

Still, long as we're defining the lingo...

"Free" means mostly 'without restriction'. Is the community built on "free software" or "freeware"?

Since 'sharing' is so conveniently mentioned in that meme, its definitions all revolve around participating with others and ensuring fairness.

 

So if people are going to keep repeating how "free sharing" is essential to a modding community: nobody disagrees with that.

But we should probably not talk about limiting free sharing in the name of free sharing quite so much, it's driving me nutsy.

[GrimReaper]

21 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

So, getting paid wouldn't be motivation to make mods the best they can be? But, on the other hand doing them for free is? For popularity? Likes?

 

I don't think that the free market is all about doing the least at all. It's about doing the maximum or risk someone else doing so and taking the market share you otherwise would have had.

 

[If you fall so far behind that you aren't competitive, then you lost and don't deserve the market share any more. Looking for another niche is a better use of that persons time at that point. This is a win for mod users.]

Modders usually did the whole modding thing out of passion. People who do it for the attention usually burn themselves out very fast.

 

That's very naive because the maximum is virtually infinite, it's not feasible to expect someone to put in the maximum amount of effort. Minimum doesn't mean the least amount of effort possible, minimum in an economic sense means the minimum effort required - it's a sweet spot. If you work 8 hourse to get paid a hundred bucks but you'll also get a hundred bucks if you cut your work time in half, why on earth would you want to work 8 hours instead of 4? Unless you're really into what you're doing, of course.

 

Essentially you try to cut production costs. Spend 50$ for every 100$ earned? Try spending 40$. Still making the same amount of money? Try to get it done with 30$. You'll do that until you notice a drop in earnings and then you dial back to the last stable input-outcome result. For the time being, at least. Of course, if a competitor comes around and is willing to spend 60$ for every 100$ you'll have do adjust. That's why competition is considered healthy for a market whereas monopolies or price fixing is not.

[dagobaking]

21 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

Creation Kit EULA

 

D.    No Fees for Use.  In exchange for the Editor being provided to you free of charge, You agree that You will not charge or require, directly or indirectly, a fee or other consideration for others to download, install or use Your Game Mods, including without limitation selling, licensing or other commercial distribution or commercial exploitation (e.g., by renting, licensing, sublicensing, leasing, disseminating, uploading, downloading, transmitting, whether on a pay-per-play basis or otherwise) of any Game Mods without the express prior written consent of an authorized representative of ZeniMax.  This includes distributing a Game Mods as part of any compilation You and/or other users may create.  You further agree not to charge, accept or solicit, directly or indirectly, fees or non-monetary contributions for developing or creating Game Mods, including without limitation fees collected through "crowd funding."  However, the foregoing limitations in this Section shall not apply if and to the extent such agreement violates applicable law.  You further agree that You are only permitted to distribute the Game Mods to users who have purchased the Product through authorized and legitimate distribution channels, solely for use with such users’ own authorized copies of such Product and in accordance with and subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement and all applicable laws.

 

The ZeniMax giveth......and the ZeniMax can taketh away. 

"Creation Kit EULA" - I'm pretty certain that this EULA has not been agreed to uniformly by modders. There are many mods that don't require using the CK at all.

 

"Your Game Mods" - In other words they do not own the mod.

 

"the foregoing limitations in this Section shall not apply if and to the extent such agreement violates applicable law"

 

Translation from legalspeak "we know these terms are a reach and we reserve the right to later claim that we tried to be lawful by including this line!" This is like saying that "we gain the rights to own your firstborn. Unless that is not allowed by law. Then nevermind."

 

Every state has laws that protect workers from contracts that would prevent them from using their individual skills to make a living.

 

This looks to me like a device used to get people to cave to a cease and desist. Not something that would really hold up to scrutiny in court.

 

 

[dagobaking]

22 minutes ago, GrimReaper said:

Modders usually did the whole modding thing out of passion. People who do it for the attention usually burn themselves out very fast.

 

That's very naive because the maximum is virtually infinite, it's not feasible to expect someone to put in the maximum amount of effort. Minimum doesn't mean the least amount of effort possible, minimum in an economic sense means the minimum effort required - it's a sweet spot. If you work 8 hourse to get paid a hundred bucks but you'll also get a hundred bucks if you cut your work time in half, why on earth would you want to work 8 hours instead of 4? Unless you're really into what you're doing, of course.

 

Essentially you try to cut production costs. Spend 50$ for every 100$ earned? Try spending 40$. Still making the same amount of money? Try to get it done with 30$. You'll do that until you notice a drop in earnings and then you dial back to the last stable input-outcome result. For the time being, at least. Of course, if a competitor comes around and is willing to spend 60$ for every 100$ you'll have do adjust. That's why competition is considered healthy for a market whereas monopolies or price fixing is not.

 

So, if the modder has passion, making money doesn't make it worse as you suggest. They still have the passion.

 

*sigh* So far now, we have "naive" and "you forgot to mention" nonsense. We're really going down that path again?

 

It is certainly feasible for someone to put in the maximum effort FEASIBLE for them. And I'm comfortable leaving it to the readers common sense to decide whether or not paying your bills with the work or getting like-button pushes are more motivating toward doing the max feasible.

 

What you describe is a theoretical way that someone might approach their business. Not the way that everyone succeeds. This is made obvious by the existence of budget and premium versions of many products. One is the the outcome of cost cutting where price is the priority as you describe. The premium version being one where no costs are cut because quality is the priority.

 

There is zero evidence that mod-making is prone to cost cutting business models. It doesn't really even make sense since most mods are made by a single person. They don't have any costs to cut. The cost is their time. And the product isn't even on the market until its completed to at least a semi-usable state.

[KoolHndLuke]

37 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

"Creation Kit EULA" - I'm pretty certain that this EULA has not been agreed to uniformly by modders.

Just every modder who has or will install the CK and make a mod- which constitutes almost all of the mods made for Beth/ZeniMax games. If every mod that did need the CK to be made were suddenly gone, there wouldn't even be enough mods left to sustain this site or maybe any others.

 

 They may turn a blind eye to a few people "bending" the rules. But, once more and more mod authors start seeking compensation for their mods, they might just make some changes that will make everyone very unhappy. Just because they haven't yet doesn't mean they never will.

[Guest]

OK, because the last two pages were only derailing, I am temporarily locking the thread to do some clean up.

Cleaning done and thread unlocked.

 

About everything from the last two pages was deleted because highly irrelevant and just drama inciting.

 

DO NOT battle against each others. Don't be forum trolls. (I like to kill trolls.)

 

Collaborate to find a good line against paywalling. Define what is acceptable and what is not. Give your opinion. Avoid just to shoot random facts that have the same valor of posts on Facebook.

 

Happy discussion.

[SexDwarf2250]

On 6/12/2018 at 2:21 PM, -Caden- said:

People should get paid for their work.

 

Software companies charge plenty, and they pay their employees. I believe most people consider that this is about hobbyists, and an industry's greedy attempt to squeeze profit for themselves out of a volunteer community; in the process running the risk of, at best, fragmenting the community* and, at worst, destroying the modding scene as we know it. 

 

If the gaming companies wanted to approach this in a benevolent way and, say, loosen up their restrictions on monetization, I feel like that that might be another discussion, instead of mainly, and quite obviously, just wanting to get their fingers into everyone's pie. On the other hand, it seems it is already possible to make quite a decent living from patreons and donations, as at least one of the links above demonstrates - if you have talent, and perhaps the willingness to satisfy market demand rather than pursue your own interests, if those do not coincide.

 

There's also the consideration that Bethesda games sell to quite a few people based on the expectation of modding availability. If the free mod scene went away, I would, personally, immediately stop buying TES games. The debacle with the CC, not to mention FO 76 (Optional single player campaign! Gosh, how great), is already making me consider that this time might have come. If I had to pay even $5 each for most of the 200+ mods I've used to fix Skyrim's bland or broken shit, I would just throw it in the garbage, and I would also never have been around to have helped with any of the few mod projects I lent a hand with.

 

Lastly, consider the odd fact that it's actually easier to get people (eg cases of doctors, lawyers) to volunteer for free than it is to offer them cheapened rates for cases in need. The parallel is that many modders don't do this for the money, and if they end up to perceive to be second-class employees instead of champions of the free modding/hobbyist community, it could in fact be de-motivational - especially if they can no longer respond to whiny forumites (like me) with "yeah well you're not paying me," haha.

 

*Oh look, first in after the unlock! I didn't even realize it got locked. Well, imagine that.

[Jazzman]

3 hours ago, CPU said:

Collaborate to find a good line against paywalling. Define what is acceptable and what is not. Give your opinion. Avoid just to shoot random facts that have the same valor of posts on Facebook.

 

Happy discussion.

We had already a good (and successful) line against paywalling... some fifteen years ago (and esp. on the Nexus). Problem is, the average gamer memory of today doesn't cover such a long time frame anymore. Gamers are getting younger by the day. It is, thus, as if you tell 'em a cock 'n' bull tale that, if ever, most likely had happened in the days of Christoph Columbus or shortly thereafter, hardly just recently. And above all, the times they are a-changin'.

 

So, taking into account that identity policy has come to the gaming communities and we ain't any longer just fans of moddable games, the 'We', but instead divided into modders and users of mods, 'Us' and 'Them', the natural symbiosis of old might be translated into financial profit, the internal self-fleecing. I'm pretty sure that we have already crossed the line of safe return to the past and the roots of free modding. So where to go from here since everybody is already convinced by a model of their liking and hardly to convince of the contrary, the least by decree from above?

 

I fear any soft move we make, no matter what, might easily lead to further rifts in the communities. Falling apart in the long run, that is what I see in my crystal ball when it comes to the transformation of free modding communities into sth else. It saddens me. Now you might call it Fakebook wisdom (I for one don't even use Zuckerberg's candy communication line), I couldn't care less.

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Jazzman said:

We had already a good (and successful) line against paywalling... some fifteen years ago...

15 years ago is a lifetime. Things change quickly.

Big company's try to make money, because they do. Candy boxes, paid modding, surprise gifts? You name it.

They do and they will continue to do it, because it is a for of gain.

 

In some case it works, (mostly DOAFR and Sims 4, where you pay tons of money for stupid DLCs.) In some case they didn't (Beth paid modding, for example.)

 

Just support modders, and support companies supporting modding. That's my way vision.

Get some coins for your mods? I don't care and I will not block it. As far it is is not a real paywall.

[Halstrom]

Yep some people seem ok to buy a mod creatorss work if they are working for a software company, but if they work for themselves its got to be for free

[dagobaking]

2 hours ago, Halstrom said:

Yep some people seem ok to buy a mod creatorss work if they are working for a software company, but if they work for themselves its got to be for free

This.

 

I don't think it is their intention. But, all this does is consolidate influence toward the corporations.

[Darkpig]

1 hour ago, dagobaking said:

This.

 

I don't think it is their intention. But, all this does is consolidate influence toward the corporations.

I'm calling bullshit on that one. (Ah no offense) People expect a lot from videogames nowadays with big budget graphics and huge immersive in game worlds which requires a large budget and/or time to pull off. Thankfully small games from independent developers are still in demand. Now it is true that having modders expands a game's sale but it doesn't easily fit into a particular game setting due to a lack of communication between modder and game developer. A good example are mods on loverslab which put the player or other characters in sexual positions with a creature that doesn't really fit with the lore or in situations that doesn't make sense for the player character such as the Dragonborn in Skyrim getting raped by a chicken. Mods can even break in game mechanics if not done correctly.

[Jazzman]

1 hour ago, Darkpig said:

... a lack of communication between modder and game developer.

That's it in a nutshell.

 

Spoiler

Backed by the community I tried hard to communicate when they used my lines of code in their pricey add-on w/o having the courtesy to give me my fucking credits, something fundamental the company demanded from us modders in their gaming forum, or else. No reaction, no communication. Silence. After a while I stopped performing the shrieking Little Red Riding Hood tho. The endless loop leads nowhere and Big Bad Wolf has eaten you up already. Influence? Wtf is that? There is none!

 

All animals are equal,.. but some animals are more equal than others.

 

 

[dagobaking]

1 hour ago, Darkpig said:

I'm calling bullshit on that one. (Ah no offense) 

So, you don't think that all of the money that is spent on video games going to corporations expands their influence and minimizes others?

[Darkpig]

1 minute ago, dagobaking said:

So, you don't think that all of the money that is spent on video games going to corporations expands their influence and minimizes others?

We're talking a local candy shop vs the Mafia.

So come sing with me:

?Money is a funny thing it makes us good it makes us bad. ?

 

I guess the point I'm getting at is that there is way too many people in the world to keep track of it all and businesses or corporations as you call them are the best way to keep track of it all. That said people do root for the underdog.

 

 

[dagobaking]

1 minute ago, Darkpig said:

I guess the point I'm getting at is that there is way too many people in the world to keep track of it all and businesses or corporations as you call them are the best way to keep track of it all. That said people do root for the underdog.

I was referring to corporations to distinguish from individuals who could also run businesses.

 

I think that the driving force behind modding is that individuals or small teams are better at catering to niche interests than corporations are. But, when all the capital goes to the corporations, the individuals are cut off at the knees by comparison.

[Darkpig]

4 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

I was referring to corporations to distinguish from individuals who could also run businesses.

 

I think that the driving force behind modding is that individuals or small teams are better at catering to niche interests than corporations are. But, when all the capital goes to the corporations, the individuals are cut off at the knees by comparison.

I can kinda see where you are going with this but I think the better word would be Advertising. A lot of businesses go for the saying "go big or go home" but a small business can still make a living through sheer word of mouth. I can't say it's perfect but as long as they don't get sued, bought out or whatever there is still a way for small businesses to make things work out.

[Jazzman]

The problem with working in market niches is...  you have to be the legal owner of the very niche - the commonly accepted share holder of a market of which the niche (that produces taxable 'tuning parts') is part of. That, however, is not the case (or intention) here. It never was. Already explained what happens when you think otherwise - your valuable assets might get looted, your extrajudicial complains totally ignored. Likewise you can't simply establish your exotic vendor's tray or stake your claim in gold digger fashion on our land just b/c a voice within has told you so. It doesn't work that way... you might find it fatal. Learning things the hard way first is not the best option.

[KoolHndLuke]

3 hours ago, Jazzman said:

Learning things the hard way first is not the best way of all.

Hard way, hard headed- that's people for ya. As kids they stuck their fingers in things to see what would happen, either not aware or not caring about the consequences. Some people never change this habit until much later in life when the consequences- and possible guilt- are more than they can bear.

[nokou]

If you want to sell your mods.. sell them, if you're like me share your mods... (this is my opinion... i don't believe in buying mods but sharing mods is nice)

I just hope this site doesn't end up like nexus.. (every so often when downloading a mod nexus begs for money)

[RitualClarity]

10 minutes ago, nokou said:

If you want to sell your mods.. sell them, if you're like me share your mods... (this is my opinion... i don't believe in buying mods but sharing mods is nice)

I just hope this site doesn't end up like nexus.. (every so often when downloading a mod nexus begs for money)

It does get annoying but, I don't mind it over putting things behind a paywall.  It is convenient for those that want to support the author to donate a little bit for the mod. That popup is one of the better solutions to provide an opportunity for a mod author to request money. I don't have a problem with requesting money for the work they have done.

 

In my opinion of all the things Nexus has done in the past, that is the least offensive one 

 

 

[winny257]

1 hour ago, KoolHndLuke said:

Hard way, hard headed- that's people for ya. As kids they stuck their fingers in things to see what would happen, either not aware or not caring about the consequences. Some people never change this habit until much later in life when the consequences- and possible guilt- are more than they can bear.

and there are people who never thereto learn no matter how high the consequences are, they insist on Their point of view and go over corpses.