Mods and Money!?

[GrimReaper]

1 hour ago, Halstrom said:

Oh yeah $500 is so important but then entitled people deny those very people struggling on low income the right to ask for donations for their work.... yep obviously the Great American way of Freedom for some.....

 

The only Demanding I see in this thread is people demanding everything for free at the cost of others freedom to ask for money for their time, skills and efforts.

Nobody is demanding anything as far as I can tell. After all, a demand comes with authority which none of us really have on that matter. It's a discussion about the topic and I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to paint everyone that disagrees with you as some kind of authoritarian tyrant that demands you behave and work for free or else.

 

From what I can tell, there's nothing wrong both morally and legally about asking for donations. However, if you go so far and lock your mods behind a paywall, you aren't merely asking, you're demanding money in exchange for a product or service. On the other hand, the people that are opposed to paid modding like myself are not demanding that you work for free, we're asking that if you want to mod, you should do so because you want to and if you don't want to, that's fine. Work on mods or don't, it's your choice, but if you do decide to work on a mod, it'd be nice if you didn't charge money for it. Put a pricetag on every mod you use and you might realize where some of the problems lie.

[dagobaking]

59 minutes ago, GrimReaper said:

You already answered your own question. First you say that Bethesda has no legal claim in this matter because they allow script extenders. Then you say that modders don't actually sell their mods and use a donation based system instead because Bethesda might sue them if they outright sold mods. Now we're back to square one.

What? Where did I say either of those things?

 

I said that a specific type of claim that you brought up (intellectual property) is compromised by them publishing instructions about how to use the extender on their site. That is not to say that they have no other legal claims or even that they don't have intellectual property claims related to this depending on the case.

 

I don't see where you are pulling the other claim from at all. How could I even know what all modders do? It's not really something I follow very closely beyond the small circle of mods that I deal with during my mod development.

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The OBSE, SKSE and F4SE teams don't receive money. Yes, there's a potential breach in the ToS here because they're tampering with the games executable files and they're generally very carefully in doing so. However, that's very different from a product or service that's sold that uses another IP as the very core of it's existence.

You framed it as an intellectual property issue. Not ToS. Two related but different things.

 

I addressed intellectual property which applies to BOTH selling mods and releasing reverse engineered proprietary software. What F4SE is is a far more clear-cut violation of intellectual property rights than selling mods that Bethesda has encouraged the world to make.

 

Your idea about "core of it's existence" has no legal bearing. The closest thing to that is to say that something is a derivative of another work. But, many if not most mods are not derivatives. When someone makes a scripted mod, they start with a blank script. They are not copying and pasting Bethesda code. Many bodies, armors, etc. are made from scratch and are used in multiple games. Even mods that bring in Bethesda scripts or assets are not derivatives. There is no "IP at the core of its existence" because it is used in a Bethesda game. Either Bethesda had a hand in actually making the product or they did not. And in many cases, their part of it is either nothing or minimal. In the minimal cases, it is possible for a work to consist of different parts owned by different parties. And again, no third party has automatic rights to prevent people from selling parts of works that they own. It's their idea, their effort, their IP.

 

And because this seems like a point of confusion, this is about IP as you framed it. Not about every ToS matter. There are many other ToS issues that could come into play. That just isn't the way you had been putting this.

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Selling mods would

 

1) probably come with a copyright claim because the potential customer might confuse the unofficial mod with official DLC from Bethesda

I think that would be an incredibly flimsy argument considering how obvious the differences are, how the source of getting the software is different and the fact that Bethesda has profited from and encouraged people to make mods.

Quote

2) probably come with the claim that you do not own the rights or license to make money with said IP by selling additional content for it

Additional content is not automatically their IP!

Quote

 

After all, nobody has any second thought about uploading a free mod anywhere on the web, but when it's about receiving payment for a mod, people suddenly skirt around the issue by asking for """donations""". The reason I put donation in quotes here is because there's a few things that differentiate a purchase from a donation but some modders blur the line to the point where it's obvious it's a purchase for all intends and purposes.

I already went over this.

[MadMansGun]

2 hours ago, CPU said:

Not exactly true.

I did pay, from my own pocket, at least three of these animators for a mod I released for free.

Now, I paid because I was consuming their time, and they did a wonderful job all of the three I paid. (Some others did the work for free, SirNibbles for example.)

i was not taking commissioned work into account, but i'm sure none of them started "learning to do so much" for a financial gain.

 

2 hours ago, Halstrom said:

Well fine for you "rich" Skyrim people, we only have 3 current animators in Fallout.

FO4 is too boring, the only thing interesting is the deathclaw....and i ported that into skyrim.

[Halstrom]

1 hour ago, GrimReaper said:

Nobody is demanding anything as far as I can tell. After all, a demand comes with authority which none of us really have on that matter. It's a discussion about the topic and I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to paint everyone that disagrees with you as some kind of authoritarian tyrant that demands you behave and work for free or else.

 

From what I can tell, there's nothing wrong both morally and legally about asking for donations. However, if you go so far and lock your mods behind a paywall, you aren't merely asking, you're demanding money in exchange for a product or service. On the other hand, the people that are opposed to paid modding like myself are not demanding that you work for free, we're asking that if you want to mod, you should do so because you want to and if you don't want to, that's fine. Work on mods or don't, it's your choice, but if you do decide to work on a mod, it'd be nice if you didn't charge money for it. Put a pricetag on every mod you use and you might realize where some of the problems lie.

Well people here are demanding against the right to ask for donations too.
And if people lock their mods behind Paytron or Steam, they had better be pretty unique or good at a low one off price if they want them to sell. They will recieve what they are worth.
Expensive mods in Second Life and other platforms only sell and make money if they are truly good mods and most required a mountain of effort and support rather than a 30minute asset rip.
 

[Halstrom]

2 minutes ago, MadMansGun said:

i was not taking commissioned work into account, but i'm sure none of them started "learning to do so much" for a financial gain.

 

FO4 is too boring, the only thing interesting is the deathclaw....and i ported that into skyrim.

Skyrim is too boring, they spent 5 years failing to make a Mermaid mod, no interested animators apparently...…….

[MadMansGun]

Just now, Halstrom said:

Skyrim is too boring, they spent 5 years failing to make a Mermaid mod, no interested animators apparently...…….

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/90967

[Halstrom]

35 minutes ago, MadMansGun said:

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/90967

Nope just a Mermaid creature mod....

[giuliohe151]

On 6/12/2018 at 8:21 PM, -Caden- said:

I Just want to put my two cents out there on paid mods, paywalls and Patreon. ( Not that anyone cares but I take a different stance than a lot of people)

 

 My opinion on this is it is a good thing. People should get paid for their work. Just because some modders do not have a Patreon or a paywall does not make them a better modder, or have better ethics in the gaming community. A modder requesting to get paid for the hours they put into a mod, whether it be hundreds or thousands of hours is very acceptable. ( I know I know you should get everything for free right?) 

 I have made mods and/or update mods from time to time and I have never had a Patreon, nor will I ever have one, but it is not because I feel that mods should be free all the time, there are 2 reasons why:

 

1. I am blessed with having a very good career, and modding to me is a hobby, like it is to most people
2. I have not put in the time like many others, like Ashal , CPU, Kimy and team, T.ara, and Goubo, just to name a few, and there are many many more

 

 Now you have a lot of very talented people that have made incredible mods that you have got hours of enjoyment out of, and 99.9 percent of them put them up for free, and some add a Patreon page for donations if you can. I think is fantastic, yet very few donate (compared to the amount of members), but will be the first to overload the mod page (the mod that you got for free by the way) with demands on what should be added, or what you do not like.

 

I sponsor a few modders monthly , and by no means does that make me a better member, I do it because I am able too. I understand that a lot of people are unable too, but if you buy a coffee for 2.50 at the store every day, why cant you give a dollar, one time to Lovers Lab, or your favorite modder that spent countless hours to make a mod that you have used thru 5 playthrus, I mean really a lot of us paid Bethesda 4.95 for Hearthfires ffs.

 

 Please do not take this as trying to shame people, because it is not meant that way, just think about it the next time you see a Patreon link on someone's page, or for Lovers Lab if you able to throw even a dollar that way..just please consider it.

 

 Finally I want to give a shout out to the often forgotten modders and they work the put in, the modders creating animations, often overlooked as to how important their animations are to make so many other mods work. Anub, Leito, Funnybiz, SirNibbles and Billy just to name a few and there are many more great ones

 

 Anyways that's just my two cents, support if you can, and if you cannot support with a donation, then a kind word about their mod goes a long ways instead of always a complaint.

 

EDIT: To fix Typos and to name a few animators cause its deserving

I don't really know how I feel about this topic....

On one hand something I liked about the modding community was that it was all created and shared for free , player made content for other players.
It is also true that selling mods goes against the ToS because modders are using the original game's files to make their mods and that as such it is not so legal.

Many of the players who install mods also happen to be students with no jobs ( like me ) and hiding mods behind a paywall would exclude them from getting said mods....and let's face it...if we were all favorable to the fact that you can capitalize your mods and earn something ( for as little as it can be ) instead of giving them away for free....why would you not do that ? I'm fairly sure a lot more modders would start locking their work behind payment....and pay for this and pay for that in the end it becomes pretty heavy....( hell, my skyrim game now counts about 500 mods....if I had to spend 5 $ for....let's even just say half of them because let's simulate the fact some modders would give away their work for free....it would be 5 x250 = 1250 $ I spent.....it's a lot....at this point I'd rather not use mods at all ) .

On the other hand....I myself have a few artist friends and like to support them when I can and think it's right to do so, these people deserve our support.

Still, the point is that as a student I can not buy myself a coffee for 2.50 every day as you said....I actually have to save my money for important stuff....and if I also had to pay for mods every time I want a new mod then I wouldn't be able to handle it the same way as I wouldn't be able to handle a p2p game or something like that ; I understand that with a decent carreer and a salary these amounts of money must look not so important to you....but they do make the difference for some people. 

[Guest]

You miss something,
It is not because there are "paywall" that content is no longer distributed free later....
 

Some shout to the wolf about the paywall,
But there is not really any bad paywall here.

Just one thing, I think is that people who give something also deserve an extra bonus.

Go to a restaurant for example, they are nice, they offer you free things, but if you want filet mignon there's a moment it is no longer possible to give everything ..
The world does not become free because you are a student or no longer have money.
The money will come when you work, and even when you work you will also encounter some money problems someday.
This is the case for the vast majority of the people of this planet in developed countries.

 

And In the end, we also serve students.
A little less free mods, less time to play games and more time to study..
We motivate you to study to earn money later.
Work before the "fun".

 

But remember that gamers doing stuff for gamers is a bit a truncated picture.
Many of us do not play games either because of loss of interest or lack of time because we work for you ..
It's not fun, it's not playing a game, but working.

 

You will realize that in life you always have to work to get something..
From student to the death.. It's how the world is.

[pinky6225]

11 hours ago, giuliohe151 said:

I don't really know how I feel about this topic....

On one hand something I liked about the modding community was that it was all created and shared for free , player made content for other players.
It is also true that selling mods goes against the ToS because modders are using the original game's files to make their mods and that as such it is not so legal.

Many of the players who install mods also happen to be students with no jobs ( like me ) and hiding mods behind a paywall would exclude them from getting said mods....and let's face it...if we were all favorable to the fact that you can capitalize your mods and earn something ( for as little as it can be ) instead of giving them away for free....why would you not do that ? I'm fairly sure a lot more modders would start locking their work behind payment....and pay for this and pay for that in the end it becomes pretty heavy....( hell, my skyrim game now counts about 500 mods....if I had to spend 5 $ for....let's even just say half of them because let's simulate the fact some modders would give away their work for free....it would be 5 x250 = 1250 $ I spent.....it's a lot....at this point I'd rather not use mods at all ) .

On the other hand....I myself have a few artist friends and like to support them when I can and think it's right to do so, these people deserve our support.

Still, the point is that as a student I can not buy myself a coffee for 2.50 every day as you said....I actually have to save my money for important stuff....and if I also had to pay for mods every time I want a new mod then I wouldn't be able to handle it the same way as I wouldn't be able to handle a p2p game or something like that ; I understand that with a decent carreer and a salary these amounts of money must look not so important to you....but they do make the difference for some people. 

The lure of money drew back some modders that had stopped modding (i.e. when steam first tried it) who promptly dropped off the face of the earth again when that possibility was taken away, net result was the same as not paying for mods as they didnt make any new mods

 

A few modders have mentioned they do this for free as its there hobby/they do it for fun, if it becomes unfun they will stop doing it - if it becomes unfun but they need extra money to fix their car they might keep doing it as they have an incentive - i.e. no i wont stay at work 20 extra hours to earn time and a half i'll make something and stick it on the web for those that choose to buy

 

Still not understanding whats wrong with giving them that choice, we have the choice to keep our credit card in our wallet or try make it ourselves

[GrimReaper]

16 hours ago, dagobaking said:

 

I said that a specific type of claim that you brought up (intellectual property) is compromised by them publishing instructions about how to use the extender on their site. That is not to say that they have no other legal claims or even that they don't have intellectual property claims related to this depending on the case.

 

I don't see where you are pulling the other claim from at all. How could I even know what all modders do? It's not really something I follow very closely beyond the small circle of mods that I deal with during my mod development.

You framed it as an intellectual property issue. Not ToS. Two related but different things.

 

I addressed intellectual property which applies to BOTH selling mods and releasing reverse engineered proprietary software. What F4SE is is a far more clear-cut violation of intellectual property rights than selling mods that Bethesda has encouraged the world to make.

 

Intellectual property isn't a claim, it's a definition that comes with certain claims, like copyright, end user licence agreements, terms of service and such. Reverse engineering which is what you brought up isn't covered by the same part that covers copyright infringement, for example. So even if a company like Zenimax passively allows reverse engineering (which seems to be mostly legal anyway in the US at least) their game's executable files this has nothing to do with say, some dudes releasing a game that's called Skyrim 2. That's why I said you're jumping topics. Yes, when a company allows copyright infringment for years and then decides to not do that anymore it won't be that easy and that's why many companies shut down fan projects because if they're allowing a fan project that might be mistaken for an official product it could be used against them in the future.

[dagobaking]

On 6/29/2018 at 11:10 AM, GrimReaper said:

Intellectual property isn't a claim,

Are you now saying that you did not frame the basis of a theoretical Bethesda lawsuit as IP?

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Reverse engineering which is what you brought up isn't covered by the same part that covers copyright infringement, for example. So even if a company like Zenimax passively allows reverse engineering (which seems to be mostly legal anyway in the US at least) their game's executable files this has nothing to do with say, some dudes releasing a game that's called Skyrim 2.

You're just doing the same thing as the last post. Asserting an idea without actually adding anything new or addressing the way I have already responded to the same point.

 

Releasing reverse engineered, proprietary code, to the public against their terms of service 100% is an IP matter. And sending mixed messages about their stance on IP as it relates to modding would 100% be relevant to an IP based lawsuit over modding. The argument would be that Bethesda arbitrarily enforces their IP rights because at large, they profit from the interest that modders create in their product. In light of this, they are wrongfully seeking to prevent modders from profiting from THE MODDERS IP that exists in the mods, even though through their own actions, Bethesda clearly demonstrates that they know they are already benefitting from the modders work.

 

Sorry. One party doesn't get to be the only one who can profit from their IP just because they made a ToS. If they had not actively encouraged modding, it would be a different story. [And as written before, this is why you have not demonstrated a business reason why Bethesda is anywhere close to going after modders in the first place. They are making millions off of modders now. Shutting some modder down is a loss for Bethesda. Not a gain.]

 

In discovery, I am certain that there would be massive numbers of emails proving what I am saying as they share strategy, ideas, research about how much they make from modding AND what their real motives for picking and choosing modders to go after is based on.

 

Quote

That's why I said you're jumping topics. Yes, when a company allows copyright infringment for years and then decides to not do that anymore it won't be that easy and that's why many companies shut down fan projects because if they're allowing a fan project that might be mistaken for an official product it could be used against them in the future.

And this is why I pointed out in the beginning that Bethesda has allowed ToS and IP violations for years. Not sure why you think it applies differently to copyright than to IP enforcement.

[Guest]

for me, simple as this : have to pay for mods= lame. pay for the best version of a mod variation= seems fair. free mods= always fun. guilt tripped and pressured into donating to mod author= it's fine, if ya love the mod and got a lil extra moolah lying around I'd donate and if ya don't also fine no need to pay. for me? simple as that.

 

[winny257]

a very important point for pay modders, everybody knows the legislation and how one can handle these.
but you all forgot one thing, if I pay for something then it will automatically become my property!
and what I do with my property, is completely alone my Thing, and if I the bought mod continue to give away, then nobody can prevent it.
or have their ever heard of it, that a car manufacturer dictates to me,  that I a bought car, can not give away? 

[Halstrom]

3 minutes ago, winny257 said:

a very important point for pay modders, everybody knows the legislation and how one can handle these.
but you all forgot one thing, if I pay for something then it will automatically become my property!
and what I do with my property, is completely alone my Thing, and if I the bought mod continue to give away, then nobody can prevent it.
or have their ever heard of it, that a car manufacturer dictates to me,  that I a bought car, can not give away? 

Maybe by that logic you can give the original copy but not copies of course, you can't buy a DVD, book or CD then give copies away or sell copies.

[love456352]

I personally think that my original mod can be a sponsor but if it's a non-original mod, I think it's not necessary to sponsor it because the mod is not what he does

[love456352]

1 hour ago, winny257 said:

a very important point for pay modders, everybody knows the legislation and how one can handle these.
but you all forgot one thing, if I pay for something then it will automatically become my property!
and what I do with my property, is completely alone my Thing, and if I the bought mod continue to give away, then nobody can prevent it.
or have their ever heard of it, that a car manufacturer dictates to me,  that I a bought car, can not give away? 

Knowledge products and physical products are not the same thing at all!

[winny257]

2 hours ago, love456352 said:

Knowledge products and physical products are not the same thing at all!

I remain true to at least one point of view *Forever FREE*!
and when I give away pay mods would, what do you want to do about it?
me court ads (sue in court) without itself getting into the focus of the Investigation!
for me is and remains Pay modding illegal! 

[dagobaking]

8 minutes ago, winny257 said:

and when I give away pay mods would, what do you want to do about it?
 

 Pretty easy to stop.

 

I doubt that LL or Nexus would allow you to do this. So, you would just be banned. And if you started your own site, a cease and desist would get your host provider to shut you down.

[Kimy]

4 hours ago, winny257 said:

but you all forgot one thing, if I pay for something then it will automatically become my property!

 

No, it doesn't. You apparently have no clue about copyright laws. You never, ever own anything unless you created it. What you buy is the right to use it. That doesn't mean you can give away copies of it. Some people call that "piracy". It's actually illegal.

[Kaz Aanh]

You only get license to use this downloaded product. You don't own it, its a rental system.

 

Lasts as long as your file are on HDD or website/service dies.

[Lozeak]

 

2 hours ago, winny257 said:

I remain true to at least one point of view *Forever FREE*!
and when I give away pay mods would, what do you want to do about it?
me court ads (sue in court) without itself getting into the focus of the Investigation!
for me is and remains Pay modding illegal! 

 

How does this help free mods?

All your doing in trying to hurt someone because they don't follower your beliefs and there the kind of people I don't want supporting the free mods I make.

 

Don't like paid/early access mods- Don't pay for them.

Want free mod- support/promote/donate to them.

 

Also, yea you probably could do that on some shady website with a community that would likly never of paid of mods anyway so you'd probably be wasting your time.

 

Ulmf, used to be a place to pirate games until the community started making games and it changed very quickly, it's still there but is a lot less worse than it was for that kind of behavior.

 

Here's the thing though the mentality behide a lot indie porn games is "if you like you should donate" with mod it's "if you like it .... complain about other early access mod" it helps no one.

 

[MadMansGun]

3 hours ago, dagobaking said:

I doubt that LL or Nexus would allow you to do this. So, you would just be banned. And if you started your own site, a cease and desist would get your host provider to shut you down.

10 minutes ago, Lozeak said:

Also, yea you probably could do that on some shady website with a community that would likly never of paid of mods anyway so you'd probably be wasting your time.

one of the mod piracy sites is actually less "shady" than LoversLab....and it has more web traffic than nexus.

[dagobaking]

1 hour ago, MadMansGun said:

one of the mod piracy sites is actually less "shady" than LoversLab....and it has more web traffic than nexus.

I think the idea was that stealing is shady. Loverslab is actively against stealing.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Kimy said:

No, it doesn't. You apparently have no clue about copyright laws. You never, ever own anything unless you created it. What you buy is the right to use it. That doesn't mean you can give away copies of it. Some people call that "piracy". It's actually illegal.

You know, "Culture" is like jam, the less they have, the more they spread it. ?

 

--

Piracy website less shady than LL... 

Ear that surely please the staff... ?
Those who make every effort to be fair to EVERYONE..
They also expressed themselves on this thread but many seem not to have noticed what they said.

They are correct, upright and intelligent people, and new rules about paywalling will happen anyway...