Mods and Money!?

[Jazzman]

23 minutes ago, winny257 said:

and there are people who never thereto learn no matter how high the consequences are, they insist on Their point of view and go over corpses. 

As long as these people don't drag the community site and thus its members as a whole into their tax-free business operation they may be masters of their own fate...

[winny257]

one thing I want still say, I hope it is understandable!
for me is pay-modding nothing else as microtransactions and loot boxes in a game, no matter who earned the money!
For me it is the biggest impudence for extra content to demand money (excluding ADD'ons).
all games, in particular Ubisoft and EA with such content, I did not buy and I will never buy.
and for me, the time for pre-orders of games is long gone, I'll wait, wait and when I discover an anomaly, then is this game died for me. 

[Halstrom]

Basically if a modder spends thousands of hours creating a mod better than the games DLC, users demand they do it for free so they aren't allowed to paywall it like the gaming company does

[dagobaking]

9 hours ago, Darkpig said:

I can kinda see where you are going with this but I think the better word would be Advertising. A lot of businesses go for the saying "go big or go home" but a small business can still make a living through sheer word of mouth. I can't say it's perfect but as long as they don't get sued, bought out or whatever there is still a way for small businesses to make things work out.

I'm just looking at the download numbers for mods. No advertisements needed.

 

If people could find it within their hearts to pay .25 to .50 cents per download it would be a decent earning for an individual author.

 

8 minutes ago, Halstrom said:

Basically if you spend thousands of hours creating a mod better than the games DLC, users demand you do it for free so you aren't allowed to paywall it like the gaming company does

Only Bethesda is allowed to be terrible. ?

[winny257]

2 hours ago, Halstrom said:

Basically if a modder spends thousands of hours creating a mod better than the games DLC, users demand they do it for free so they aren't allowed to paywall it like the gaming company does 

my comment about it, these companies cut into their own flesh!
this was already clearly noticeable fierce criticism, LOOTBOXEN in Battlefront 2 (EA) and the associated sales figures!
in germany this game is called "Battlefront 2 is a Star Wars online casino for kids"
Now US politicians criticize the Lootboxen in games such as Star Wars Battlefront 2 - in clear words. There should be an initiative to protect young people better from the elements of gambling in the future or even ban them altogether.

 

sorry on German

https://www.golem.de/news/lootboxen-battlefront-2-ist-ein-star-wars-onlinecasino-fuer-kids-1711-131287.html

 

Spoiler

 

 

edit: Oh yes, I forgot to mention one thing, if themselves the complaints about pay-modding, at the US government augment.
then it might well happen, that Bethesda receives a state edition, to prevent modding in the future! 

[winny257]

3 hours ago, dagobaking said:

 

If people could find it within their hearts to pay .25 to .50 cents per download it would be a decent earning for an individual author.

 

I am but Not crazy, The money transfer would be far more expensive as this mod would cost.
Although I have money, everything is fine in my head! Ger. (noch alle Latten am Zaun) 

 

Edit: adequate?
5000000 downloads times 0.50 cents are 2500000 dollars!

Example: with the CBBE Body this bill would be even more drastic!
12,744,313 Downloads!

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/2666/

that is megalomania!!!! ?

[winny257]

3 minutes ago, Alkpaz said:

Winny, here is a model for Activision: 

Spoiler

 

sorry, I can not translate image texts.

[dagobaking]

50 minutes ago, winny257 said:

I am but Not crazy, The money transfer would be far more expensive as this mod would cost.
Although I have money, everything is fine in my head! Ger. (noch alle Latten am Zaun) 

 

Edit: adequate?
5000000 downloads times 0.50 cents are 2500000 dollars!

Example: with the CBBE Body this bill would be even more drastic!
12,744,313 Downloads!

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/2666/

that is megalomania!!!! ?

[Of course this was over 7 years and subscriptions would be for unique downloads. Not the larger repeat downloads number.]

 

And good for Caliente! They deserve it for making a mod that many people find useful.

 

I would like to see what they do for us if they can do this full time. Wouldn't you?

[winny257]

29 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

[Of course this was over 7 years and subscriptions would be for unique downloads. Not the larger repeat downloads number.]

 

And good for Caliente! They deserve it for making a mod that many people find useful.

 

I would like to see what they do for us if they can do this full time. Wouldn't you?

so much money earned no programmer in a company, not even in 7 years!
and therefore are modders, the only thereon think, megalomaniac.
and my guess, with such amounts of money it would call Bethesda's Legal Department on the scene. 

[KoolHndLuke]

14 minutes ago, winny257 said:

and my guess, with such amounts of money it would call Bethesda's Legal Department on the scene.

That's exactly what I was saying. I don't have a problem with someone like Caliente making that kind of money on her mods - she deserves it. Beth/ZeniMax is what I also see as a BIG problem when they start noticing a lot of cash going into people's pocket for mods in their games. Don't you think that they- as a business- want damn near all the money to be made off their games going into their pockets? Like I said, they might let the little bit of money being tossed around right now go. But, turn it into something bigger.........

[Jazzman]

1 hour ago, winny257 said:

I am but Not crazy,

Of course not, pops. We have a social security number, a legal profession, pay our income tax, all the bills and fees for the costs of living and the lover, go to church *coughs* and, most importantly, don't confuse revenue with real earnings... not to end up behind bars or below the bridge for years.

[Guest]

On 7/28/2018 at 6:21 PM, SexDwarf2250 said:

 

Software companies charge plenty, and they pay their employees. I believe most people consider that this is about hobbyists, and an industry's greedy attempt to squeeze profit for themselves out of a volunteer community; in the process running the risk of, at best, fragmenting the community* and, at worst, destroying the modding scene as we know it. 

 

If the gaming companies wanted to approach this in a benevolent way and, say, loosen up their restrictions on monetization, I feel like that that might be another discussion, instead of mainly, and quite obviously, just wanting to get their fingers into everyone's pie. On the other hand, it seems it is already possible to make quite a decent living from patreons and donations, as at least one of the links above demonstrates - if you have talent, and perhaps the willingness to satisfy market demand rather than pursue your own interests, if those do not coincide.

 

There's also the consideration that Bethesda games sell to quite a few people based on the expectation of modding availability. If the free mod scene went away, I would, personally, immediately stop buying TES games. The debacle with the CC, not to mention FO 76 (Optional single player campaign! Gosh, how great), is already making me consider that this time might have come. If I had to pay even $5 each for most of the 200+ mods I've used to fix Skyrim's bland or broken shit, I would just throw it in the garbage, and I would also never have been around to have helped with any of the few mod projects I lent a hand with.

 

Lastly, consider the odd fact that it's actually easier to get people (eg cases of doctors, lawyers) to volunteer for free than it is to offer them cheapened rates for cases in need. The parallel is that many modders don't do this for the money, and if they end up to perceive to be second-class employees instead of champions of the free modding/hobbyist community, it could in fact be de-motivational - especially if they can no longer respond to whiny forumites (like me) with "yeah well you're not paying me," haha.

 

*Oh look, first in after the unlock! I didn't even realize it got locked. Well, imagine that.

You make great points and it would be a valid discussion if all I said is " people should get paid for thier work" but I said alot more than that. In my post and comments I continue to say " donations" and "paywall", and it is peoples right to charge or ask for donation, like it or not.

 

Talking about people buying games just because others might mod, yes that's true, so some modders should put in a thousand hours into mods and give them to you so you will buy from Bethesda? Ah no!

 Again you have your opinion and I respect that and I have mine. No-one has given me and example yet of why I should change my opinion.

 

I have over 40 mods out thier right now on 3 different sites and have never once thought about charging or asking for donation, that does not make me a more moral modders, If others open a patreon or paywall that is thier choice and I respect their choice AND donate to their page when I can

 

Finally, and I say this in a "poke fun joking manor" ☺ this isn't CNN, so quoting just one line out of everything I said misses the point I was trying to make.

[KoolHndLuke]

35 minutes ago, Alkpaz said:

Nexus would burn first since they donate 10K a month to modders, and even have a Patreon account dedicated to it. 

Well, Mr. Scott has said that the best way to deal with Beth is to not bring it up to them. Something along the line of they can't say no if you don't ask. Still, 10k shelled out to mod authors every month is symbolic more than anything else.

 

 If half the users that download mods contributed some pennies per mod- it would add up to a rather significant amount for most authors. But, since hardly anyone even thinks about donating,....we have to debate a paid mod system over and over while everyone ignores the elephant in the room.

[Guest]

On another note about modding, for anyone who has uploaded a mod, If you do not think modders should get paid for the work of creating a mod they should at least get paid for the trolls on thier mod, the demanding people who use the mod.

 It's not modding that burns people out, it the repeated " Your mods not working in my game it must be broke"..oh really, yea your right fucko the mod works for 19,000 other people but you installed it wrong so it's broke!

Or will you add this, this, and this? So as far as I am concerned if someone uploads a working mod, then adds something to the mod that someone else "ASKED" for, then at that point you have the right to paywall, or ask for donations

People who download mods are really demanding for something that they expect for free.

So people should expect to get a fully working mod for free but have no problem buying a half broken game like Skyrim for 60 dollars, 3 or 4 times over the past 7 years...something seems backwards

[dagobaking]

1 hour ago, winny257 said:

so much money earned no programmer in a company, not even in 7 years!

I can assure you that many developers do make that much. More in fact. And then a lot, lot more if you start counting ones that independently make apps, etc. similar to the risk/reward that modding is.

1 hour ago, winny257 said:

and my guess, with such amounts of money it would call Bethesda's Legal Department on the scene. 

I'm assuming this would be on a sanctioned site maybe through Steam or Nexus.

 

Yes. I'm sure that a market site just going up without Bethesda's blessing would get shut down.

1 hour ago, KoolHndLuke said:

That's exactly what I was saying. I don't have a problem with someone like Caliente making that kind of money on her mods - she deserves it. Beth/ZeniMax is what I also see as a BIG problem when they start noticing a lot of cash going into people's pocket for mods in their games. Don't you think that they- as a business- want damn near all the money to be made off their games going into their pockets? Like I said, they might let the little bit of money being tossed around right now go. But, turn it into something bigger.........

The deal for a pay market has already been blessed by them once. It could happen again in some variation.

 

I think that they would like all the money. But, that just renders the idea not viable for anyone. I think that there are significant gains for them as a business without taking a large cut. Theres a gain if they take no cut.

8 minutes ago, -Caden- said:

On another note about modding, for anyone who has uploaded a mod, If you do not think modders should get paid for the work of creating a mod they should at least get paid for the trolls on thier mod, the demanding people who use the mod.

 It's not modding that burns people out, it the repeated " Your mods not working in my game it must be broke"..oh really, yea your right fucko the mod works for 19,000 other people but you installed it wrong so it's broke!

Or will you add this, this, and this? So as far as I am concerned if someone uploads a working mod, then adds something to the mod that someone else "ASKED" for, then at that point you have the right to paywall, or ask for donations

People who download mods are really demanding for something that they expect for free.

So people should expect to get a fully working mod for free but have no problem buying a half broken game like Skyrim for 60 dollars, 3 or 4 times over the past 7 years...something seems backwards

This x1000!

 

[RitualClarity]

14 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

Well, Mr. Scott has said that the best way to deal with Beth is to not bring it up to them. Something along the line of they can't say no if you don't ask. Still, 10k shelled out to mod authors every month is symbolic more than anything else.

 

 If half the users that download mods contributed some pennies per mod- it would add up to a rather significant amount for most authors. But, since hardly anyone even thinks about donating,....we have to debate a paid mod system over and over while everyone ignores the elephant in the room.

I don't think people are ignoring the elephant in the room, I think they FORGOT what the elephant in the room is

 

5 minutes ago, -Caden- said:

On another note about modding, for anyone who has uploaded a mod, If you do not think modders should get paid for the work of creating a mod they should at least get paid for the trolls on thier mod, the demanding people who use the mod.

 It's not modding that burns people out, it the repeated " Your mods not working in my game it must be broke"..oh really, yea your right fucko the mod works for 19,000 other people but you installed it wrong so it's broke!

Or will you add this, this, and this? So as far as I am concerned if someone uploads a working mod, then adds something to the mod that someone else "ASKED" for, then at that point you have the right to paywall, or ask for donations

People who download mods are really demanding for something that they expect for free.

So people should expect to get a fully working mod for free but have no problem buying a half broken game like Skyrim for 60 dollars, 3 or 4 times over the past 7 years...something seems backwards

So people that help the author fielding the stupid as fuck questions, directing the people who refuse to admit they are doing something dumb or even to follow those instructions should get paid as well? They are helping the mod author avoid frustration.

 

As for paying for a broken game.. I do have issues with it. I was satisfied with Fallout NV and even Skyrim (given Skyrim SE by the way) even though it was essentially broken and buggy.   but was really pissed at the broken game of Fallout 4 and how bad the game was for so long and the design decisions as well. I was livid with MEA (Mass Effect Andromeda)  as well. So much so I haven't bought a game since.   I am not buying any game at full price.... without serious playablity and excellent reviews and many bug fixes (post release). As a result... there hasn't be a single game that has qualified for me to buy. So.. I can't talk for others... however, I can speak for myself... I was livid and am taking serious steps for limiting or preventing this in the future. I might be in a very small minority though...it is sad

 

To add to the demeaning for free stuff... imagine how they will be for paying for mods. Think they will be ... Oh, Ok it doesn't work oh well. No. I think it will be even worse and quite frankly I agree that a product that is paid for one can expect much higher quality. A level of completeness as well (once fully completed that is.. not beta or pre-release. Even Steam has these games as options for someone. ) 

 

Paying for a mod is different than supporting the author wouldn't you agree. Your an author, wouldn't it be better for support... than to outright pay for access to a mod? If money is involved that is. At lest with that, you are supporting the works (all of them) of the author. You are "giving" monetary support to them not buying a product from them. I believe there is a difference, a big difference.

 

I am not able to give monetary support so in the past I have given my personal support in the mod, testing, support of the mod, deflecting those demanding people. Creating tutorials and other instructional documents, and liberal praises and encouragement.. etc. Is this not also valuable? Is this not also important? To an author that is. I know it don't pay the bills but surely it is something. Hopefully valuable.

[KoolHndLuke]

Do you like the idea of a BodySlide preset "mod" getting 10,000 downloads in a week? A face preset? A weapon damage edit? A simple texture mod?

 

 Any kind of paid modding is going to bring a flood of these kinds of mods. People are that ignorant about modding and download and endorse those like crazy. You make a really complicated quest mod and people like it, but, they report all kinds of bugs that have nothing to do with your mod, want changes made because they are paying for it, demand updates, etc. So, after awhile you say "FUCK IT!!! I'm just going to make easy mods from now on and laugh all the way to the bank.". Pretty soon, that's how most or all mod authors see things and the community is left with shit and slowly dies. Did anyone think of that?

 

Will modders still be passionate about making mods when they see some other asshole making money on a shit mod?

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, RitualClarity said:

Paying for a mod is different than supporting the author wouldn't you agree

I do agree that was actually what this post was originally about. Do I think all modders should get paid? No! Their are a lot of dumb mods out there:

Exploding chickens...um what? That is for a 10 year old or someone who smoke one to many bowls.

 The there was Thomas the train, my little pony and the list goes on and on about dumb mods, but as far as quality mods that's have a Patreon or even a paywall, I see nothing wrong with that

9 minutes ago, RitualClarity said:

I am not able to give monetary support so in the past I have given my personal support in the mod, testing, support of the mod, deflecting those demanding people. Creating tutorials and other instructional documents, and liberal praises and encouragement.. etc. Is this not also valuable? Is this not also important

Extremely Important, and anyone doing this, like yourself ,for a mod should get the praise for that and if a mod author doesn't thank someone like you for doing that they need to get their head out of their ass and Thank you. Also if the mod author is making money on his/ her mod I see nothing wrong with shooting a few buck your way

 

As to the games. Your talking about I agree, That why I stopped pre ordering or buying on the release date,  I wait to see how it plays out after release

 

As to the question about isn't support worth money too, the answer is yes.

If you read my early comments I was talking about a member named Pfiffy and saw no problem with him starting a patreon for himself . Remember the days when you could buy a book for the games, some you still can, but anyways people paid for those books and that was payment for support

 

I know this is long winded but the day I became a diehard lovers lab member was when I tried to give a donation to lovers lab in Guffels name because of all his great work, that was after Guffel thanked me for offering a donation to him but refused kindly. Ashal emailed me back and said there was no need because of Guffel contribution to the site with his work...i realized 2 things that day

1 Ashal see the contributions of people 

 

2 LL in not about money it's about members

 

WITH that said for you to be a supporter of mod authors and mods users, is extremely Important,  and should not go without notice

 

 

 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

Do you like the idea of a BodySlide preset "mod" getting 10,000 downloads in a week? A face preset? A weapon damage edit? A simple texture mod?

 

 Any kind of paid modding is going to bring a flood of these kinds of mods. People are that ignorant about modding and download and endorse those like crazy. You make a really complicated quest mod and people like it, but, they report all kinds of bugs that have nothing to do with your mod, want changes made because they are paying for it, demand updates, etc. So, after awhile you say "FUCK IT!!! I'm just going to make easy mods from now on and laugh all the way to the bank.". Pretty soon, that's how most or all mod authors see things and the community is left with shit and slowly dies. Did anyone think of that?

That's a very good point

[RitualClarity]

1 hour ago, -Caden- said:

Extremely Important, and anyone doing this, like yourself ,for a mod should get the praise for that and if a mod author doesn't thank someone like you for doing that they need to get their head out of their ass and Thank you. Also if the mod author is making money on his/ her mod I see nothing wrong with shooting a few buck your way 

 

I am of the mindset that I wouldn't want any bucks sent my way. If someone was making a few dollars off a mod that I was helping with, just having contact, a bit of support (to be better at supporting) and the latest and greatest of what is to be offered (for my assistance ) is more than enough.

 

My tutorials and all the stuff I have here is up for someone to work on and edit and make versions with nothing more than a simple credit to the original source (without that would be very possibly plagiarism lol. Unless they totally rewrite it... and if that was the case... well... they didn't need to take my tutorial in the first place... lol. ... )

 

I am of the mindset that unless I was doing some mega massive project (Like a DLC sized.. scratch that... a PROPERLY SIZED DLC project (Not something equivalent to a "horse armor" ;)) maybe.  I just can't see myself doing that. If anything, I would encourage those individuals to support the site that is holding the files and providing a distribution source for the mod. I know a site takes a metric shit ton of money to run.

 

I am so pleased that most authors provide their mods for free. Then a few provide versions through Patron but release their recent versions shortly later.  I don't know of any that demand money for their mod. (or those that don't give regular updates unless you are part of their patron)

[Halstrom]

4 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

That's exactly what I was saying. I don't have a problem with someone like Caliente making that kind of money on her mods - she deserves it. Beth/ZeniMax is what I also see as a BIG problem when they start noticing a lot of cash going into people's pocket for mods in their games. Don't you think that they- as a business- want damn near all the money to be made off their games going into their pockets? Like I said, they might let the little bit of money being tossed around right now go. But, turn it into something bigger.........

Caliente is probably responsible for a large percentage of Beth sales though seeing they suck at that stuff.
Oh yeah CBBE, Bodyslide && LooksMenu are easy mods, anyone can knock one up in an hour...

[SexDwarf2250]

3 hours ago, -Caden- said:

it is peoples right to charge

However, even in this postmodernist age, your feelings don't define people's rights, legal or otherwise.

3 hours ago, -Caden- said:

You make great points and it would be a valid discussion if all I said is " people should get paid for thier work" but I said alot more than that.

My response to one of your points is not invalidated by your other chatter, especially when the item I address is an underlying assumption of injustice on which your overall argument seems to somehow rest.

3 hours ago, -Caden- said:

Talking about people buying games just because others might mod, yes that's true, so some modders should put in a thousand hours into mods and give them to you

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

 

[RitualClarity]

4 minutes ago, Halstrom said:

Caliente is probably responsible for a large percentage of Beth sales though seeing they suck at that stuff.
Oh yeah CBBE, Bodyslide && LooksMenu are easy mods, anyone can knock one up in an hour...

I can't even get my GECK  or CK up and running for a hour without crashing....

[SexDwarf2250]

Some other questions to consider,

 

Why would throttling demand improve anything when satisfying demand is one of the motivations that many modders work for?

 

There's a saying, "the proof is in the pudding." If paying for mods will make things better, why is it then, when I look at the Creation Club, that I don't see a single thing that is better than the community's creations? For that matter, how is it that Bethesda can pay people full time to create things that are at least in some cases, frankly, crap compared to some modders' work, which they create and distribute for the joy of creation and sharing?

 

Lastly, anyone on Loverslab should be especially concerned - the discussion is different for mature content. All this content here could never exist in any sort of official connection with Bethesda. This has become especially relevant because independent modders are now in direct competition with Creation Club profit. Now that the Bethesda bean counters are potentially getting a dollar value out of our work, assuming their venture is successful, you can bet it is only a matter of time before the free modding community begins to feel some form of  pressure. Then, once the Creation Club platform spreads out to increase its potential contributors and takes over the modding space, paid or not, content you find on Loverslab will be a thing of the past.

 

This is the real issue to me: CC did two things, one small, one big. How modders can get paid has changed, from patreon or donations to per-transaction. This is (in the grand scheme of things) a small change. The big change is that because Bethesda now collects money from the modders' work, this creates something new: a conflict of interest for them. Every mod that exists free and in the wild is now a lost opportunity for profit. It is this conflict of interest that makes me opposed to the CC in general, because it certainly can not possibly have any benefit for the modding community, to the contrary, if it proceeds logically and according to market principles, it will almost certainly ruin the modding scene.

 

I don't need more Bethesda-flavor content in their games. I need the spice that free modders create, people that do things for fun, that don't care what the "mainstream" wants to buy, people that are free to make mature content without corporate approval.

[Halstrom]

33 minutes ago, SexDwarf2250 said:

Lastly, anyone on Loverslab should be especially concerned - the discussion is different for mature content. All this content here could never exist in any sort of official connection with Bethesda. This has become especially relevant because independent modders are now in direct competition with Creation Club profit. Now that the Bethesda bean counters are potentially getting a dollar value out of our work, assuming their venture is successful, you can bet it is only a matter of time before the free modding community begins to feel some form of  pressure. Then, once the Creation Club platform spreads out to increase its potential contributors and takes over the modding space, paid or not, content you find on Loverslab will be a thing of the past.

Sex mods are also responsible for a lot of game sales