D_ManXX2 Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 Bethesda was also good at curating bethnet. Look at how many stolen mods where uploaded in short amount of time. The real drive will come when bethesda state they will take the heat only to stab the modders that supplied creation club back in their backs.like what happenend the first time they tried to introduce paid modding. not bethesda was attacked later on but steam and modders that uploaded their paid mods. many still has bad taste of the action by bethesda back then. The only thing happens now they finally go down with there own success.
arpaschad Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 lol...before this discussion turns personal and unraveling of MamaVault™ denizens becomes a thing that I would have to disclose (highly unlikely) my social security and tax identification number for my right "to have an opinion" on paid mods and paid everything, I would like to just say that the only good thing so far I see with this Schism is the resurgence of "joke mods" in the Nexus and other 3rd party modding sites... one that gave me a nice chuckle is that "Creation Thief" mod in Nexus which basically changes every thief's name in Skyrim to a "unique" one... if Creation Club gets somehow successful I do hope the people working there can create joke mods like this that ain't afraid to poke fun of themselves and the fiascos they have done throughout the years... but then again content in the CC would be "curated" so I doubt that will happen... they can charge for a horse armor mod or retexture though...
ralfetas Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 Bethesda was also good at curating bethnet. Look at how many stolen mods where uploaded in short amount of time. The real drive will come when bethesda state they will take the heat only to stab the modders that supplied creation club back in their backs.like what happenend the first time they tried to introduce paid modding. not bethesda was attacked later on but steam and modders that uploaded their paid mods. many still has bad taste of the action by bethesda back then. The only thing happens now they finally go down with there own success. That! That is a good point, and remember when far harbor leak on nexus before launch, how many "paid mods" will leak to nexus, bethesda.net etc... When was on bethesda.net, they took days to remove a mod, when was in nexus, they have to remove it in few hours. Just speculation now, but because the modder that work on a mod will be a freelancer in a team that will check their work, i don't think we will credits on the mods. Again, from what i read here, 99% of the people are not against paid mods, if they are good, deserve the funding, yes, let's pay, but the problem is what door zenimax is opening, and we are not on the good companys era anymore, when they could release a game without DRM, free DLC's, supporting external content, when you don't have to choose between 3 versions of the same game, all that is history for all big companies. But will be fun to see mods leaking to other places.
Guest Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 I can already see it: FALLOUT 5/TES6 SEASON PASS! Buy now and receive 499 additional credits for user created mods!! Get the deluxe edition and receive 1000 credits!!! I remember when you preordered games in the 90s you actually receive cool physical things like gold cartridges, the link figure when you preordered OOT, and now......it's all intangible online stuff that you won't even remember because the next game will take precedence.... I always thought modding as a hobby I have denied a total of $200 for my mods. As ignorant as my statement is, if you intend to try to make a living with mods then.....you kinda did something wrong with your life. If you're interested in the gaming industry then there's a lot more options then just screwing the community by feeding the greedy corporations. How about trying to go indie on Steam? I don't know much about those kinds of skills (heck I don't even consider myself a mod author), but modding in general was a fun past time where seeing users enjoy their games and be happy was the only rewarded that was needed. People these days are so obsessed with who can get the most endorsements and whatever imaginary internet points to make you feel validated. Not really surprised that a lot of big mod authors have already sold their souls to Satan (bethsoft) because of their desire for validation. I remember someone asking me to upload some mod and their justification was "but you'll get so many endorsements and be on the front page!!" Yeah I give no shits about endorsements or being popular. I make a mod because I want it for myself and then I'll upload it. Simple as that. Seriously, this whole hype of following the popularity train is ridiculous. Big mod authors like DDproduxtions and Elianora have been accepted in the CC and now I feel like people are completely supporting it when we have popular youtubers such as MxR also endorsing it. A mod reviewer even said they'd pay $10 for Eli's armors but only $2 for heather casadin or Ellen the cartographer. I mean no disrespect to Elianora but people are riding her feminine dick so hard if people are willing to pay $10 (which was the price of fucking automatron) as opposed to paying higher for a mod that actually takes more effort and longer hours. I feel like I'm in no position to criticize but I've made armors before and currently working on a custom Voiced companion and let me tell you the work load is a HUGE difference. TL;DR Uneducated people who have no idea about the intricacies of modding are just spewing their opinions out of their asses without realizing the long term harms this can entail to the community. This mindset is because of console plebs, big mod authors taking advantage of their popularity and agreeing with this system, and people being okay with being penetrated by Bethesda without lube. I mean of course big mod reviewers are cool with it! More content for them to make money off of OUR mods. I mean when we have a dying channel like MxR mod reviews it's no surprise that he'd support it knowing that he can make s lot more more making more reviews. ESPECIALLY now that mods will be paid, people will be a lot more willing to check his channel to see what mods are worth buying. Truly a sad time
27X Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 So ''pirated mods'' will be a thing soon? That or slowly killing PC modding scene after so many great years... Pirated mods are already a thing.
ralfetas Posted June 23, 2017 Posted June 23, 2017 Big mod authors like DDproduxtions and Elianora have been accepted in the CC and now I feel like people are completely supporting it when we have popular youtubers such as MxR also endorsing it. They are in the CC ?!?!?!? That's for real ?!?!?!?!
Guest Posted June 23, 2017 Posted June 23, 2017 Big mod authors like DDproduxtions and Elianora have been accepted in the CC and now I feel like people are completely supporting it when we have popular youtubers such as MxR also endorsing it. They are in the CC ?!?!?!? That's for real ?!?!?!?! Yep 100% confirmed. Elianora announced it on her twitter and I forgot where I heard about it for DD. Pretty sure in twitter as well. A few other smaller but still popular mod authors have made announcements in the images section of the Fallout 4 Nexus saying how they got accepted into the program. They "claim" that they will still produce free content but watch: the money will make them greedy and Bethesda may prevent them from doing so under whatever contract they may sign.
Yami X Posted June 23, 2017 Posted June 23, 2017 ^^Meh...... I wish I could say I was suprised but I'd be lying.
Guest Posted June 23, 2017 Posted June 23, 2017 Big mod authors like DDproduxtions and Elianora have been accepted in the CC and now I feel like people are completely supporting it when we have popular youtubers such as MxR also endorsing it. They are in the CC ?!?!?!? That's for real ?!?!?!?! She also made a Facebook post about it on June 15. People are saying that this won't affect free content but mark my wordszz
ralfetas Posted June 23, 2017 Posted June 23, 2017 Big mod authors like DDproduxtions and Elianora have been accepted in the CC and now I feel like people are completely supporting it when we have popular youtubers such as MxR also endorsing it. They are in the CC ?!?!?!? That's for real ?!?!?!?! Yep 100% confirmed. Elianora announced it on her twitter and I forgot where I heard about it for DD. Pretty sure in twitter as well. A few other smaller but still popular mod authors have made announcements in the images section of the Fallout 4 Nexus saying how they got accepted into the program. They "claim" that they will still produce free content but watch: the money will make them greedy and Bethesda may prevent them from doing so under whatever contract they may sign. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA RLOL!!!!! SORRY, I AM DYING HERE!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA So the strange guy that wage war against bethesda.net, and their wife or something, join what they clain to be the evil corporation HAHAHAHAHAHAHA that is soo much funny!!! The first time i see a video from DDproduxtions i thought, this guy needs a life... Now with this news, i will use your words, "kinda did something wrong with your life", that's so much funny! I see how elionora treats the people that have questions about her mods, btw, if i have seen this before i would never give her permission to use my mod on her mods, i can imagine they will not do support for beths, or someone will be fired very quickly!!!
Guest Posted June 23, 2017 Posted June 23, 2017 ^^ the issue is that people are starting to see this as a job....which it isn't. But like I said, if you studied video game design or whatever and want to work in a game company then go for it. But if that was never the intention then.....why? I could be wrong here but I think these mod authors have the delusion that someday they will become full fledged employees of Bethesda or that they will have a good experience for their resume. But I highly doubt that employers will prefer someone with schooling and indie experience as opposed to someone with a computer on their hands and working only online with Bethesda. It's not like they are completely hands on with Bethesda in their design studios. Remember, Bethesda is also looking for small companies that may also want to create content. You really think these free lancers will hold any weight against that? Sure there may be like 1-2 exceptions out of the hundreds that will apply for the CC but.....let's be real here.
Kimy Posted June 23, 2017 Posted June 23, 2017 But I highly doubt that employers will prefer someone with schooling and indie experience as opposed to someone with a computer on their hands and working only online with Bethesda. It's not like they are completely hands on with Bethesda in their design studios. Remember, Bethesda is also looking for small companies that may also want to create content. You really think these free lancers will hold any weight against that? I haven't talked to any modder who didn't have a relevant background in the arts. You'd be surprised. And there are 10,000 good reasons why somebody would prefer making a bit of money off modding (where they could still largely decide what content they'd make) over becoming a corporate drone and/or having to move somewhere where they don't want to be.
Guest Posted June 23, 2017 Posted June 23, 2017 But I highly doubt that employers will prefer someone with schooling and indie experience as opposed to someone with a computer on their hands and working only online with Bethesda. It's not like they are completely hands on with Bethesda in their design studios. Remember, Bethesda is also looking for small companies that may also want to create content. You really think these free lancers will hold any weight against that? I haven't talked to any modder who didn't have a relevant background in the arts. You'd be surprised. And there are 10,000 good reasons why somebody would prefer making a bit of money off modding (where they could still largely decide what content they'd make) over becoming a corporate drone and/or having to move somewhere where they don't want to be. "A bit of money"? That's why there are donations and patreons. I have reason to believe they are looking for A LOT more money if the satisfaction of what we have right now isn't enough to fill their pockets. But it's funny that you bring becoming "corporate drones" considering this is Bethesda we are talking about. And by the way that's why I mentioned working with indie games in my posts. All in all though, it's their choice, whatever I understand. But I hope they understand the repercussions of their choices. With effort and dedication, anyone can be a modder. I have zero background in art and currently work in health care. I'm just a 1 out of the many in the masses but.....seriously modding isn't a career if all it requires it watching hours of tutorials on 3D programs and the CK.
bicobus Posted June 23, 2017 Posted June 23, 2017 I'm pretty sure that whatever BethSoft is paying is more than whatever little donation you'll ever get. Because nobody really donates anything, unless you get a crazy patron with too much money.
Kimy Posted June 23, 2017 Posted June 23, 2017 But I highly doubt that employers will prefer someone with schooling and indie experience as opposed to someone with a computer on their hands and working only online with Bethesda. It's not like they are completely hands on with Bethesda in their design studios. Remember, Bethesda is also looking for small companies that may also want to create content. You really think these free lancers will hold any weight against that? I haven't talked to any modder who didn't have a relevant background in the arts. You'd be surprised. And there are 10,000 good reasons why somebody would prefer making a bit of money off modding (where they could still largely decide what content they'd make) over becoming a corporate drone and/or having to move somewhere where they don't want to be. "A bit of money"? That's why there are donations and patreons. I said it above - a LOT of people here tell modders "Hey, we don't want to buy your stuff because mods should be free, but why don't you set up a Patreon?" Which is a funny thing to say, because close to 100% of the people who downloaded my mods didn't contribute to my Patreon. If a reasonable amount of people enjoying the work of modders would actually put in a few bucks here and there, I don't think we'd have this discussion right now, for no modder would probably even think about joining Beth's CC, if they could get reasonable compensation through donations. But the sad truth is that close to 100% of users do NOT donate anything, ever. At large, people only ever pay up if they are outright forced to. seriously modding isn't a career if all it requires it watching hours of tutorials on 3D programs and the CK. Like I said, I am not aware of many modders (at least the more well known ones) NOT having a relevant professional background. That and apparently taxi driving is a profession, despite all it takes is having a driver's license. Last time I checked people didn't ask them to live off Patreons either, so that's a fairly silly argument to make.
27X Posted June 23, 2017 Posted June 23, 2017 Big mod authors like DDproduxtions and Elianora have been accepted in the CC and now I feel like people are completely supporting it when we have popular youtubers such as MxR also endorsing it. They are in the CC ?!?!?!? That's for real ?!?!?!?! Best part is neither her nor Hothtrooper have ever made an actual MOD in their life. Placing someone else's content in a leveled list or in a navmesh is about as minimum a mod as you can make short of "I put tattoos on this skin in 5 seconds with a stamp brush" Quite the CC roster what with War Daddy and one other person banned off the nexus for racism. Expecting great things. Donations The only mods that actually get donations are porn mods, which is why we're having this conversation in the first place.
Guest Posted June 23, 2017 Posted June 23, 2017 "Modding isn't a career if all it requires is watching hours of tutorials on 3D programs and the CK" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aD-hfcFt2w Ganas: Desire. Ah I remember watching this movie! But I agree though. I'm not trying to belittle any mod author but with a little desire and tutorials anyone can do it. The real work that's put in the bulk of modding are the silverlock team and the Doctor + Ashal who got sex tech and four play running. THAT requires extensive knowledge of coding and reverse engineering that deserves monetary compensation. And I'm not talking out of my ass. I already donate to this site once a month.
ralfetas Posted June 23, 2017 Posted June 23, 2017 Big mod authors like DDproduxtions and Elianora have been accepted in the CC and now I feel like people are completely supporting it when we have popular youtubers such as MxR also endorsing it. They are in the CC ?!?!?!? That's for real ?!?!?!?! Best part is neither her nor Hothtrooper have ever made an actual MOD in their life. Placing someone else's content in a leveled list or in a navmesh is about as minimum a mod as you can made short of "I put tatoos on this skin in 5 seconds with a stamp brush" Quite the CC roster what with War Daddy and one other person banned off the nexus for racism. Expecting great things. Donations The only mods that actually get donations are porn mods, which is why we're having this conversation in the first place. I leave donations open to my mods (not adult mods), and some people help indeed, i pay some softwares that i use with these donations, of course is not nothing that we can count as a income, but at least i have the software expenses paid. For the DD mods, to be honest i never ever try a mod from him, don't know if they are good or not, but his and other modders financial situation should be terrible to take this. When i was young, i realize that work is not a hobby, and when a hobby become work, is not a hobby anymore, so you have to do what you are good at, not what you like, and most of the time you need money to make what you like, and in some cases, a lot!
Guest Posted June 23, 2017 Posted June 23, 2017 Big mod authors like DDproduxtions and Elianora have been accepted in the CC and now I feel like people are completely supporting it when we have popular youtubers such as MxR also endorsing it.They are in the CC ?!?!?!? That's for real ?!?!?!?! Best part is neither her nor Hothtrooper have ever made an actual MOD in their life. Placing someone else's content in a leveled list or in a navmesh is about as minimum a mod as you can made short of "I put tatoos on this skin in 5 seconds with a stamp brush" Quite the CC roster what with War Daddy and one other person banned off the nexus for racism. Expecting great things. DonationsThe only mods that actually get donations are porn mods, which is why we're having this conversation in the first place. I leave donations open to my mods (not adult mods), and some people help indeed, i pay some softwares that i use with these donations, of course is not nothing that we can count as a income, but at least i have the software expenses paid. For the DD mods, to be honest i never ever try a mod from him, don't know if they are good or not, but his and other modders financial situation should be terrible to take this. When i was young, i realize that work is not a hobby, and when a hobby become work, is not a hobby anymore, so you have to do what you are good at, not what you like, and most of the time you need money to make what you like, and in some cases, a lot! Yeah exactly...if we assume their financial situation was bad then.....what the hell are they doing playing video games?! I can't really say for sure given that we don't know how much Beth is paying them but do you think it's as much as a standard developer? Heck no. They will be paid a flat rate regardless of whether they get zero downloads or 1 billion downloads. And knowing Bethesda....it will probably be at a rate MUCH lower than their own developers. Why? Because why make developers create more DLC content when we have cheaper labor that can produce cooler content? However I highly doubt anyone who signed up went in with the intention of "gee I hope this opportunity can help me survive!" Maybe there is something I'm not understand in the FAQ from Bethesda, but nothing about it seemed like it was an actual job.
shadowlord445 Posted June 23, 2017 Posted June 23, 2017 I can already see it: FALLOUT 5/TES6 SEASON PASS! Buy now and receive 499 additional credits for user created mods!! Get the deluxe edition and receive 1000 credits!!! I remember when you preordered games in the 90s you actually receive cool physical things like gold cartridges, the link figure when you preordered OOT, and now......it's all intangible online stuff that you won't even remember because the next game will take precedence.... I always thought modding as a hobby I have denied a total of $200 for my mods. As ignorant as my statement is, if you intend to try to make a living with mods then.....you kinda did something wrong with your life. If you're interested in the gaming industry then there's a lot more options then just screwing the community by feeding the greedy corporations. How about trying to go indie on Steam? I don't know much about those kinds of skills (heck I don't even consider myself a mod author), but modding in general was a fun past time where seeing users enjoy their games and be happy was the only rewarded that was needed. People these days are so obsessed with who can get the most endorsements and whatever imaginary internet points to make you feel validated. Not really surprised that a lot of big mod authors have already sold their souls to Satan (bethsoft) because of their desire for validation. I remember someone asking me to upload some mod and their justification was "but you'll get so many endorsements and be on the front page!!" Yeah I give no shits about endorsements or being popular. I make a mod because I want it for myself and then I'll upload it. Simple as that. Seriously, this whole hype of following the popularity train is ridiculous. Big mod authors like DDproduxtions and Elianora have been accepted in the CC and now I feel like people are completely supporting it when we have popular youtubers such as MxR also endorsing it. A mod reviewer even said they'd pay $10 for Eli's armors but only $2 for heather casadin or Ellen the cartographer. I mean no disrespect to Elianora but people are riding her feminine dick so hard if people are willing to pay $10 (which was the price of fucking automatron) as opposed to paying higher for a mod that actually takes more effort and longer hours. I feel like I'm in no position to criticize but I've made armors before and currently working on a custom Voiced companion and let me tell you the work load is a HUGE difference. TL;DR Uneducated people who have no idea about the intricacies of modding are just spewing their opinions out of their asses without realizing the long term harms this can entail to the community. This mindset is because of console plebs, big mod authors taking advantage of their popularity and agreeing with this system, and people being okay with being penetrated by Bethesda without lube. I mean of course big mod reviewers are cool with it! More content for them to make money off of OUR mods. I mean when we have a dying channel like MxR mod reviews it's no surprise that he'd support it knowing that he can make s lot more more making more reviews. ESPECIALLY now that mods will be paid, people will be a lot more willing to check his channel to see what mods are worth buying. Truly a sad time Which youtuber said that? Heather Casdin is the type of content Fallout 4 desperately needs, and is better than anything those 2 have ever made.
Guest Posted June 23, 2017 Posted June 23, 2017 I can already see it: FALLOUT 5/TES6 SEASON PASS! Buy now and receive 499 additional credits for user created mods!! Get the deluxe edition and receive 1000 credits!!! I remember when you preordered games in the 90s you actually receive cool physical things like gold cartridges, the link figure when you preordered OOT, and now......it's all intangible online stuff that you won't even remember because the next game will take precedence.... I always thought modding as a hobby I have denied a total of $200 for my mods. As ignorant as my statement is, if you intend to try to make a living with mods then.....you kinda did something wrong with your life. If you're interested in the gaming industry then there's a lot more options then just screwing the community by feeding the greedy corporations. How about trying to go indie on Steam? I don't know much about those kinds of skills (heck I don't even consider myself a mod author), but modding in general was a fun past time where seeing users enjoy their games and be happy was the only rewarded that was needed. People these days are so obsessed with who can get the most endorsements and whatever imaginary internet points to make you feel validated. Not really surprised that a lot of big mod authors have already sold their souls to Satan (bethsoft) because of their desire for validation. I remember someone asking me to upload some mod and their justification was "but you'll get so many endorsements and be on the front page!!" Yeah I give no shits about endorsements or being popular. I make a mod because I want it for myself and then I'll upload it. Simple as that. Seriously, this whole hype of following the popularity train is ridiculous. Big mod authors like DDproduxtions and Elianora have been accepted in the CC and now I feel like people are completely supporting it when we have popular youtubers such as MxR also endorsing it. A mod reviewer even said they'd pay $10 for Eli's armors but only $2 for heather casadin or Ellen the cartographer. I mean no disrespect to Elianora but people are riding her feminine dick so hard if people are willing to pay $10 (which was the price of fucking automatron) as opposed to paying higher for a mod that actually takes more effort and longer hours. I feel like I'm in no position to criticize but I've made armors before and currently working on a custom Voiced companion and let me tell you the work load is a HUGE difference. TL;DR Uneducated people who have no idea about the intricacies of modding are just spewing their opinions out of their asses without realizing the long term harms this can entail to the community. This mindset is because of console plebs, big mod authors taking advantage of their popularity and agreeing with this system, and people being okay with being penetrated by Bethesda without lube. I mean of course big mod reviewers are cool with it! More content for them to make money off of OUR mods. I mean when we have a dying channel like MxR mod reviews it's no surprise that he'd support it knowing that he can make s lot more more making more reviews. ESPECIALLY now that mods will be paid, people will be a lot more willing to check his channel to see what mods are worth buying. Truly a sad time Which youtuber said that? Heather Casdin is the type of content Fallout 4 desperately needs, and is better than anything those 2 have ever made. In terms of specific amounts a YouTube named JuiceHead made that statement and a lot of his users called out on his bullshit. MxR has also stated paying stupid amounts for small content. But juicehead is the specific YouTube that would pay $10 for armors that uses in game content rather than heather casadin that requires a custom voice, custom missions, numerous dialogue, and a lot more effort. Juice head has made many videos about the CC if you're interested in that specific one I can link it for you.
shadowlord445 Posted June 23, 2017 Posted June 23, 2017 please do *Edit* Found it, 10 bucks got you Automatron, which added weapons, armor, and the ability to build your own robot, and this guy would pay that for an armor pack, *shakes my head*
ralfetas Posted June 23, 2017 Posted June 23, 2017 Yeah exactly...if we assume their financial situation was bad then.....what the hell are they doing playing video games?! I can't really say for sure given that we don't know how much Beth is paying them but do you think it's as much as a standard developer? Heck no. They will be paid a flat rate regardless of whether they get zero downloads or 1 billion downloads. And knowing Bethesda....it will probably be at a rate MUCH lower than their own developers. Why? Because why make developers create more DLC content when we have cheaper labor that can produce cooler content? However I highly doubt anyone who signed up went in with the intention of "gee I hope this opportunity can help me survive!" Maybe there is something I'm not understand in the FAQ from Bethesda, but nothing about it seemed like it was an actual job. I am no one to judge on that financial matter... But people do stupid things, i already see a lot, i already had to fired people because they just don't know how to adjust priorities in their life. Don't know if the mods there will be cool or not... mods are not DLC, but they sure will need to be polish, i believe everyone that makes a mod, do it thinking about perfection or something close to it, they give their best, so the difference between CC and free mods for now would be just the polish, the package i believe. But like we are all here talking, the problem is not what is coming now, but what will come next... Losing community members is not cool, in special because the community is already not so big like used to be, but the guys who really make all that magic happen are true to the modding spirit.
Guest Posted June 23, 2017 Posted June 23, 2017 i hate it when someone infringes on my gimmick- goddamn gimmick infringers jacking my signature gimmick
D_ManXX2 Posted June 23, 2017 Posted June 23, 2017 Seriously, this whole hype of following the popularity train is ridiculous. Big mod authors like DDproduxtions and Elianora have been accepted in the CC and now I feel like people are completely supporting it when we have popular youtubers such as MxR also endorsing it. A mod reviewer even said they'd pay $10 for Eli's armors but only $2 for heather casadin or Ellen the cartographer. I mean no disrespect to Elianora but people are riding her feminine dick so hard if people are willing to pay $10 (which was the price of fucking automatron) as opposed to paying higher for a mod that actually takes more effort and longer hours. Cant say i am surprised With big modders like that and elionora housing is like dlc work already. But Mxr that fucking traiter ?? he was the one that was attacking paid mod from the start. looks to me he made 180 degrees turn. i never liked his crappy youtube clips anyway. I see now why ddproduction where skimming the nexus for talent contest lately getting the best modders away from free release so they could start this in secrecy. But the good thing they can never re-release their previous work it is has to be new and unique. witch means they cannot not remove their free stuff and only get that back in creation club under paid content. Like what happened with paid mod version 0.1 on steam. I was laughing so loud when the creator of mcm tought he could get mcm mod off the free grid and into paid moddding content. users starting to attack him left and right so he quickly dropped that idea altogether. now he left the modding scene altogether, I do hope there are atleast rules on creation club not releasing stuff their that require skse atleast then we know more advanced stuff is not possible to be build.
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