Lokikun Posted May 22, 2018 Posted May 22, 2018 5 hours ago, CGi said: i really hi-jacked inte's thread. Sorry for that but i just couldn't hold back and at least try to find a consent that we can build upon. I just want also to comment after reading all that is happening. I can see where the problem lies. I can even get close to seeing solutions to it. But I also can see how hard t all is. The problem is that both DDI and Zap want to animate the PC. If your mod consumes both (uses devices and furnitures), you need to know: - If the PC is in a Furniture that blocks a specific device to be equipped. - If the PC wears a device that blocks a furniture to be 'Equipped' Today (DDi4/ZAP8) both mods have their unique keywords, and by using them together, they clash in animation filter and other events. In other words, ZAP/DDI and any other mod that wishes to coexist with these two lacks a common way to talk between themselves. (A dwarven prostethic mod for example) They don't have ways that act as a warning to the other mod such as (blocked hands, legs, etc). [The keywords they have today are not only warnings, but they trigger actions inside the mods themselves] The problem grows more when you see that by adding a new device/furniture that blocks access to previously available appendages on the Actor/PC, all involved mods need a new way to communicate this change to the others. (So they need to update their communications array, to include a way to talk about the new object). Maybe the solution is for the community to sit down and create this common language that can be used and shared by all the bondage mods and any other mod that wishes to interact with them. Perhaps a master description database that can only be used as a communication between mods that wish to interact with the other bondage mods. (Actinga as warning that the actor in the game has 'blocks' due to equipped objects. Maybe a bondage keyword master esm). Or maybe it's just like CGI said, one of the mods has to incorporate the other.
Inte Posted May 26, 2018 Author Posted May 26, 2018 On 5/22/2018 at 8:42 AM, CGi said: That's all nice and dandy but doesn't help solving the problem at hand. You know, this wasn't really a problem until Kimy made it into one. In my opinion Kimy 'jumped the gun' and prematurely removed the keywords without having and/or caring for a suitable replacement. It's like building a Ferrari without wheels with the anticipation that anti-gravity technology will be available to replace them. I've already presented the best and easiest solution available right now: restore the removed keywords. But, like @Veladarius said, Kimy doesn't really care about who is spending their time developing mods for DDi. You have a problem with DDi? Well, you better keep it to yourself and praise 'the leader' for a job well done. Bah!
Inte Posted May 26, 2018 Author Posted May 26, 2018 On 5/22/2018 at 3:13 PM, Loki15kun said: I just want also to comment after reading all that is happening. I can see where the problem lies. I can even get close to seeing solutions to it. But I also can see how hard t all is. The problem is that both DDI and Zap want to animate the PC. If your mod consumes both (uses devices and furnitures), you need to know: - If the PC is in a Furniture that blocks a specific device to be equipped. - If the PC wears a device that blocks a furniture to be 'Equipped' Today (DDi4/ZAP8) both mods have their unique keywords, and by using them together, they clash in animation filter and other events. In other words, ZAP/DDI and any other mod that wishes to coexist with these two lacks a common way to talk between themselves. (A dwarven prostethic mod for example) They don't have ways that act as a warning to the other mod such as (blocked hands, legs, etc). [The keywords they have today are not only warnings, but they trigger actions inside the mods themselves] The problem grows more when you see that by adding a new device/furniture that blocks access to previously available appendages on the Actor/PC, all involved mods need a new way to communicate this change to the others. (So they need to update their communications array, to include a way to talk about the new object). Maybe the solution is for the community to sit down and create this common language that can be used and shared by all the bondage mods and any other mod that wishes to interact with them. Perhaps a master description database that can only be used as a communication between mods that wish to interact with the other bondage mods. (Actinga as warning that the actor in the game has 'blocks' due to equipped objects. Maybe a bondage keyword master esm). Or maybe it's just like CGI said, one of the mods has to incorporate the other. The best solution has already been suggested. But ego and pettiness does not become a 'leader'.
Veladarius Posted May 26, 2018 Posted May 26, 2018 DDi has had ZAP as a dependency from the start, partially for the animations and partially for compatibility with existing ZAP mods. It wasn't until they decided to get rid of ZAP animations and make their own that problems started. I understand that some keywords in ZAP automatically cause bound animations but had anyone worked to get alternate keywords added to ZAP? No. Do DDi and ZAP clash over bound animation filtering for sexlab? Yes but both do horrible jobs doing it to the point that I don't use either one. Several years ago all of the then mod makers got together to put together a framework for slavery and added keywords, factions and other things to ZAP as all of these mods used it, it was the basis for not just bondage mods but all manner of mods much of which DD didn't directly support (just had items). As for adding a mod that acts as a go between we have discussed this and running scripts every time you want to use conditions in dialogue or a scene to check what someone is wearing will drastically slow things down. I have done it and unless the dialogue is set to loop until the script is done the dialogue can continue before the script finishes or cause it to time out and drop out of the conversation. As for one mod incorporating the other t.ara has no intention of handing over his work to DD. They can incorporate XAZ and ZAZ's items according to their permissions but not t.ara's as his work is separate, I have already spoken to him about this. One of the things that XAZ and ZAZ (as well as previous DD development team members / leaders) wanted was to keep backwards compatibility, something the current DD Dev team cares nothing about. CGi is looking into a system to translate between the two so hopefully he can come up with something though I am not confident that it can be done.
Inte Posted May 26, 2018 Author Posted May 26, 2018 Indeed. As for the keywords, only the ones describing the type or worn restraint are needed, e.g. zbfWornWrist, not the ones controlling the animation e.g. zbfAnimHandsWrists.
CGi Posted May 26, 2018 Posted May 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Inte said: In my opinion Kimy 'jumped the gun' and prematurely removed the keywords without having and/or caring for a suitable replacement. It's like building a Ferrari without wheels with the anticipation that anti-gravity technology will be available to replace them. i'm not so sure that it's that easy. No action without a cause but whatever the cause was/is, it doesn't matter much anymore as it seems. 27 minutes ago, Veladarius said: CGi is looking into a system to translate between the two so hopefully he can come up with something though I am not confident that it can be done. i created a first test patcher using CDS as target and it migrated CDS successfully to the DD keyword system. Patching the conditions is working to a degree too but since i never really worked with DD or ZAP to this degree i'm in a big learning phase. But progress is made nontheless. 15 minutes ago, Inte said: Indeed. As for the keywords, only the ones describing the type or worn restraint are needed, e.g. zbfWornWrist, not the ones controlling the animation e.g. zbfAnimHandsWrists. Will be solved over time. There's alot of stuff that needs migrating and i need to write the script editor next so scripts are migrated automaticly too. Definitely the hardest part. 5
Inte Posted May 26, 2018 Author Posted May 26, 2018 43 minutes ago, CGi said: i'm not so sure that it's that easy. No action without a cause but whatever the cause was/is, it doesn't matter much anymore as it seems. I'm afraid it is that easy. Remove the keywords that interfere with the new DDi animation system, and leave the keywords describing the type of restraint worn to keep DDi compatible with the ZAP furniture animation system. Super easy and it can be solved now, and best of all, the mods do not get overcomplicated by patchers.
CGi Posted May 26, 2018 Posted May 26, 2018 27 minutes ago, Inte said: I'm afraid it is that easy. Remove the keywords that interfere with the new DDi animation system, and leave the keywords describing the type of restraint worn to keep DDi compatible with the ZAP furniture animation system. Super easy and it can be solved now, and best of all the mods do not get overcomplicated by patchers. That's what i tryed to suggest with minimal changes to the whole interoperability but was mostly ignored. So that's off the table due to (partially understandable) heated temperaments. What counts now is finding a solution because all solutions so far have been either ignored or ruled out and riding around on old solutions gets us nowhere. How my final solution will work in detail is still not decided since i have 3+2 (nope, not 5 as 2 are still WiP atm) options, but no matter which solution i finally choose it's geared towards the user while helping modders/old mods to the best of my extend. 1
CGi Posted May 26, 2018 Posted May 26, 2018 7 minutes ago, Inte said: Ok. You're aware that i'll bug the living shite out of you to help me with the patcher when i test it against xPOP and run into problems, right? CDS and xPOP are the most complicated ZAP utilizing mods i know so Veladarius and you will be buggered by me. Be prepared, muahaha! Because if i can make a dynamic patcher that works with those 2 mods, then it should work fine for others too ... at least for the most part ... i hope. 1
CGi Posted May 26, 2018 Posted May 26, 2018 5 minutes ago, Inte said: But of course. Hurray for ... uhm ... erm ... RESTRAiNTS! YAY!
Tyrant99 Posted May 26, 2018 Posted May 26, 2018 So ZadLibs has the following keywords that differentiate the different types of devices: Keyword Property zad_DeviousPlug Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousBelt Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousBra Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousCollar Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousArmCuffs Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousLegCuffs Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousArmbinder Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousArmbinderElbow Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousHeavyBondage Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousHobbleSkirt Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousHobbleSkirtRelaxed Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousAnkleShackles Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousStraitJacket Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousCuffsFront Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousYoke Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousYokeBB Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousCorset Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousClamps Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousGloves Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousHood Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousSuit Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousGag Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousGagPanel Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousPlugVaginal Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousPlugAnal Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousHarness Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousBlindfold Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousBoots Auto Keyword Property zad_Lockable Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousPiercingsNipple Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousPiercingsVaginal Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousBondageMittens Auto If you wanted to supplement zbfWornWrist keyword, it seems like you could create a logic test that looks for any of the above device categories that occupy Armor Slot 33 (Hands). As far as I know they are the following: Strait Jacket Armbinder Elbow Binder Gloves Wrist Shackles Yoke BB Yoke Bondage Mittens (These are unique as they may not necessarily interfere with ZAP furniture) If the right Zadlibs keywords are used to look for above Devices and grouped as a block, could be used logically in lieu of zbfWornWrist. I am not saying that this is a 'better' or 'easier' solution, as ostensibly it may be a pain in the ass, but it might at least be a work-around. 1
LazyBoot Posted May 26, 2018 Posted May 26, 2018 6 hours ago, Tyrant99 said: So ZadLibs has the following keywords that differentiate the different types of devices: Spoiler Keyword Property zad_DeviousPlug Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousBelt Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousBra Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousCollar Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousArmCuffs Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousLegCuffs Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousArmbinder Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousArmbinderElbow Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousHeavyBondage Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousHobbleSkirt Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousHobbleSkirtRelaxed Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousAnkleShackles Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousStraitJacket Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousCuffsFront Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousYoke Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousYokeBB Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousCorset Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousClamps Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousGloves Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousHood Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousSuit Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousGag Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousGagPanel Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousPlugVaginal Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousPlugAnal Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousHarness Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousBlindfold Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousBoots Auto Keyword Property zad_Lockable Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousPiercingsNipple Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousPiercingsVaginal Auto Keyword Property zad_DeviousBondageMittens Auto If you wanted to supplement zbfWornWrist keyword, it seems like you could create a logic test that looks for any of the above device categories that occupy Armor Slot 33 (Hands). As far as I know they are the following: Strait Jacket Armbinder Elbow Binder Gloves Wrist Shackles Yoke BB Yoke Bondage Mittens (These are unique as they may not necessarily interfere with ZAP furniture) If the right Zadlibs keywords are used to look for above Devices and grouped as a block, could be used logically in lieu of zbfWornWrist. I am not saying that this is a 'better' or 'easier' solution, as ostensibly it may be a pain in the ass, but it might at least be a work-around. Straitjackets, arm/elbowbinders, shackles, and both types of yokes all use the zad_DeviousHeavyBondage keyword, and don't need to be checked individually. 1
Tyrant99 Posted May 26, 2018 Posted May 26, 2018 2 hours ago, LazyBoot said: Straitjackets, arm/elbowbinders, shackles, and both types of yokes all use the zad_DeviousHeavyBondage keyword, and don't need to be checked individually. And other devices that don't interfere with slot 33 could be setup to use the zad_DeviousHeavyBondage keyword in various Mods. Most Mod Authors would probably use zad_BlockGeneric and zad_QuestDevice instead, but who knows, they might have 'reasons' for doing something else... If you're looking for Devices that specifically interfere with slot 33 (hands), then you're guaranteed to catch things with precision. In scripting, if you have a chance to choose between guaranteed precision and a 'should be this way' option, usually best to go for guaranteed precision.
t.ara Posted May 26, 2018 Posted May 26, 2018 Hello:-))) Pity, that I´m not into scripting. I can´t help here. You please together find a way that is most easy and light weighted, if possible. Today I had a break, I thought I can go on, but it´s too warm around me here. So I´m little chilling;-) ...I could of course add those keywords for being "parallel" to the "zap"-keys, if it does matter isWristCuff/... isAnkleCuff/...
t21 Posted June 2, 2018 Posted June 2, 2018 Hey need some help if someone could answer something for me. Does Devious Devices - Equip need Zaz animation pack or not and if it does which one? Because Nexus mod manager says its needed.
donttouchmethere Posted June 2, 2018 Posted June 2, 2018 1 hour ago, t21 said: Hey need some help if someone could answer something for me. Does Devious Devices - Equip need Zaz animation pack or not and if it does which one? Because Nexus mod manager says its needed. yes DDe has zaz as master you can use any ZAZ version (6.11,7,8,8+) i guess its not listed as a requirement, because it was a DDi master before since DDi removed Zaz dependency Inte could add it now as requirement on the DDe download page
t21 Posted June 3, 2018 Posted June 3, 2018 That's odd, i have ZAZ 8 installed but NMM still says the other Zaz is required. Anything thoughts on it?
donttouchmethere Posted June 3, 2018 Posted June 3, 2018 3 hours ago, t21 said: That's odd, i have ZAZ 8 installed but NMM still says the other Zaz is required. Anything thoughts on it? NMM will show a missing master in red if you click on the mods in the NMM plugin window means masters will be red (missing) or black (all fine) NMM wont say "other zaz is required" it would be helpful if you could explain that in more detail if the ZAZanimationPack.esm is missing => you have to reinstall ZAZ (deinstall -> close/restart NMM -> install)
t21 Posted June 4, 2018 Posted June 4, 2018 Its red and telling me it missing, even though i have installed. I even tried deinstall and then install like you said still comes up red.
Inte Posted June 11, 2018 Author Posted June 11, 2018 On 6/2/2018 at 4:33 AM, donttouchmethere said: yes DDe has zaz as master you can use any ZAZ version (6.11,7,8,8+) i guess its not listed as a requirement, because it was a DDi master before since DDi removed Zaz dependency Inte could add it now as requirement on the DDe download page Indeed!
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