Devious Devices - Equip (LE)

[CGi]

14 minutes ago, Kimy said:

I dare him to name my any such feature. I can't remotely think of anything POP ever could need, that DD couldn't do.

i don't dare him at all but would really like to know if that's a possibility.

 

No action without reason and "because i felt like it" is a reason too, i just doubt it's the case here.

[Inte]

21 hours ago, Kimy said:

But if you hope that ZAP dependency will be ever back, let me tell you one thing - no, it will not. Never. Ever.

No kidding!
Here, I thought you were a good project leader, placing the future of the project above mere pettiness. 

 

21 hours ago, Kimy said:

And I don't keep around stuff for no good reason other than "it always has been done that way!". I shoot for the best solution, not the oldest. ZAP's bondage code is both obsolete and dead.

First, no one is asking you to use ZAP’s bondage code. I don’t use it in POP, nor any of my mods, so why would I ask you to do it? 
Second, how can you, ‘shoot for the best solution’ when you apparently don’t even understand it?

 

21 hours ago, Kimy said:

Move on! If you can't, fine. Then don't. Cling to your outdated stuff as long as you wish.

Yes, I am the one doing the clinging here. 

 

21 hours ago, Kimy said:

Some beings adapt to change. Some do not. The ones that do not, tend to become extinct. Ask the dinos! The rest of the world will move on...

Yes, some beings adapt to change so well, that they don’t even understand it. 
The ‘dinos’ did not become extinct because they could not adapt to change, they were wiped out by a meteor, big difference there.

 

21 hours ago, Kimy said:

Who am I to judge? *shrug*

Who indeed.

 

21 hours ago, Kimy said:

PS: I couldn't use ZAP keywords for DD devices even if I wanted to. ZAP doesn't cover a healthy portion of all device types available in DD. I guess that's because that mod has been dead for 2-3 years now, or so...

ZAP covers the ones that matter for furniture use, (hands, feet, mouth, belt, etc.).

[Inte]

7 hours ago, Kimy said:

I guess it's a case of "But it has always been that way!!!", really. Mind you that PO is one of the older mods around, so I guess that explains that?

 

It can be solved in two ways exactly:

 

1. Inte sticks with ZAP's API and accepts PO not working well with DD and any mod using it. And if I understand it right, that means keeping DD Equip from updating to newer DD versions, too.

2. Inte updates the bondage code in PO to recognize DD keywords in addition or instead of ZAP keywords.

 

It's his decision and his alone. But I said repeatedly that bringing back a dependency on the very API that DD made obsolete years ago, and NOBODY but him is still insisting to use is not an option. Sure, he can continue to blame ME for DD not working well with a mod that's using a competing/alternative API. But it won't change my stance one bit. We discussed the ZAP question for a long time in the DD team and in the end we -unanimously- agreed to drop it as a DD dependency. It will not be reversed. Because it was and is the right decision. That's really the end of that. DD4 got a new major version number because it's not perfectly backwards compatible. And that includes support of ZAP keywords. It was the first time in years we made such a move, and every now and then that just happens in software development, even if we try very hard to avoid forcing our users to update their code. Microsoft depended on MSDOS in (consumer) Windows for a very long time, but eventually it cut it loose - because it was obsolete. We did the same with ZAP. I am not sure why this should be bad. It's called "progress". I guess MS would have a "lolwut???" moment too if you'd ask them to bring back MSDOS dependency, but that's seriously the same thing Inte is asking me to do.

@Kimy, I feel as if you’re trolling me, because I’ve already answered all that nonsense before.
@Veladarius for example, understood the problem in the first try. You on the other hand, keep insisting on the same flawed argument over and over again.

 

I’ll state the problem once again in the simplest terms I can.
I need ZAP’s FURNITURE API for POP, not ZAP’s bondage API. I have not used, nor do I plan to use ZAP’s bondage API. Why you keep bringing up ZAP’s bondage API, escapes me. 
DDi does not have a furniture API.      
ZAP’s furniture API needs to know what the player is wearing, as not to do something silly, and put an armbinder wearing player into a pillory. The easiest way to accomplish this, is to add back the ZAP keywords you removed from the DDi’s restraints, a very simple task that does not involve any coding. But, apparently this is too complicated for you to understand.
It’s like one of my favorite physicists once said,

[CGi]

So the way i see it, we could merge ZAP's restraints into DD and make ZAP furniture use DD's keywords instead, making ZAP the bondage furniture framework.

[Kimy]

24 minutes ago, Inte said:

No kidding!
Here, I thought you were a good project leader, placing the future of the project above mere pettiness. 

Oh, right. We've reached the next stage of the debate where me move on from disagreements to ad-hominem attacks. How predictable!

Quote

 

First, no one is asking you to use ZAP’s bondage code. I don’t use it in POP, nor any of my mods, so why would I ask you to do it? 

Keywords are a part of the API as far as I am concerned. That's what you keep telling me this is all about, now isn't it?

Quote

Second, how can you, ‘shoot for the best solution’ when you apparently don’t even understand it?

Yep, nice job. Paint me as stupid. That's sure going to help your cause!

Quote

Yes, some beings adapt to change so well, that they don’t even understand it. 

The ‘dinos’ did not become extinct because they could not adapt to change, they were wiped out by a meteor, big difference there.

Just to point that out, there meteor impact is considered ONE possible cause of their extinction. It's a theory. We don't know with certainty how they died out.

 

That being said - again nice job to take a friendly pun and use it to try making me look dumb.

 

Quote

ZAP covers the ones that matter for furniture use, (hands, feet, mouth, belt, etc.).

You keep talking about furniture, as if this would be the matter at hand. It's almost hilarious. Here is the thing: I never removed ZAP's furniture keywords from DD, because they were never in there. I am no longer sure what your babbling is even still about.

 

Know what? You will now become the second person on LL to go on my ignore list. There is no way I can ever have a civil discussion with you that doesn't end like this, and I am tired of it. Removing you from my life might not solve our differences, but I can assure you that it will make me a little happier.

 

Bye.

[Inte]

38 minutes ago, Kimy said:

Know what? You will now become the second person on LL to go on my ignore list. There is no way I can ever have a civil discussion with you that doesn't end like this, and I am tired of it. Removing you from my life might not solve our differences, but I can assure you that it will make me a little happier.

 

Bye.

Well, alrighty then. 

[Veladarius]

1 hour ago, Inte said:

Well, alrighty then. 

@Inte She isn't bright enough to understand that the furniture has device keywords associated with them indicating what restraint equivalents it has (collar, wrists, legs and such) and not just furniture keywords. As far as I'm concerned DD v4 is just her playground and a resource for DCUR (which is why all of the items from DCUR are in it) and if anyone else uses it then that's fine. I am making CD compatible enough with DD v4 so CD can operate correctly, nothing else is going into it including items. Your situation is much more difficult unfortunately. Personally I am still developing primarily for v3 and not removing any ZAP keywords or anything else from my devices.

[CGi]

4 minutes ago, Veladarius said:

the furniture has device keywords associated with them indicating what restraint equivalents it has (collar, wrists, legs and such) and not just furniture keywords.

This tells me that what i wrote is more than just a legit solution.

[bicobus]

45 minutes ago, CGi said:

This tells me that what i wrote is more than just a legit solution.

That's exactly what @Kimy don't want to do. Her whole argument is to, apparently, ditch ZAP and not use furnitures. If you percolate whatever she said in here, it just get down to that. And for any mod that requires furnitures, well they shouldn't be developed any more - that is until she release her own take on furniture bondage.

 

This is 2-3 days of dialogues where one party kept saying "I need furnitures for this mod" and the other claim "But that mod is old, bad and dead. So don't use it.". That is, there were no discussion at all because one party wouldn't address the existing issue at hand.

 

More so, even if another API were to be developed do you really expect every single mod author to ditch their year-long works to move to a "newer API (because it's the best™)"? The problem at hand hasn't been addressed, and when people patience ran out and lashed out @Kimy took offense.

 

The two questions at hand are:

1. is it possible for DD4 to be aware of ZAP furniture bondage? That is, can DD4 understand if somebody is strapped in a pillory.
2. is it possible for ZAP to be aware of DD4's devices?

More precisely, what are the uses case with using both framework? @Kimy doesn't have any because she doesn't want to address the problem. At least that's what I understood out of this nonsense.

 

ZAP furniture API is sufficient, yet quite bad. It would be better to have a more sensible one. @darkconsole is working on one for SSE. Legendary Edition is stuck with ZAP for the time being. I would encourage @Inte to check out, if not done already, I'll take the display model.

[CGi]

9 minutes ago, bicobus said:

That's exactly what @Kimy don't want to do. Her whole argument is to, apparently, ditch ZAP and not use furnitures. If you percolate whatever she said in here, it just get down to that. And for any mod that requires furnitures, well they shouldn't be developed any more - that is until she release her own take on furniture bondage.

That's not how i read her statements.

What i got so far is that she wants to drop ZAP's implementation of restraints what sadly includes the keywords used to control animations in conjunction with furniture.

She clearly stated she's not touching furniture and their functionality itself and has no plans to do so. it's sadly more of a "side effect".
So the problem i see is that ZAP still uses the old keywords to control furniture animations while DD dropped those and only those.
So my suggestion for a solution doesn't even neccessarily mean to merge ZAP restraints into DD but maybe drop the ZAP keywords and replace them with the ones from DD or similar ones while making the furniture system recognize those.
This wouldn't even need a dependecy to DD if the keyword filter on both sides uses inStr to look for identifiers in a string which has attached keywords as source (like SexLab does it). This way ZAP and DD can use thier own keywords but reuse words like Armbinder, WristCuffs and so on so animation filters work globally and between both mods.

[t.ara]

These all discussioons are not really relevant because zap must stay compatible with existing (when I used OLDER MODS in the past, I got attacked -  sorry for that!!) mods of the past time.

The same words came also by zazChris in repetition and he would never change the framework and loose the functionality for not any more updates mods. SOMETIMES I personally like to play also the OLD stuff, old versions-simply, who are MUCH more lightweighted - same is for the old DD stuff. If I for example want to play Maria Eden 1.4, I can grab all suiting stuff of the past and that old version is at once working. But: I can let ZAP (8+) and sexLab together installed with ALL of the stuff. That´s a great thing.

Best for zap is, when it´s ready to work for everything.

 

The discussion about the framework is obsolate, because a change is kicking lot of those OLDER mods OFF the LL party - the huge work of the older times is then ZERO.

This should never become true, so let´s not discuss to change zap.

 

One guy in the past told me, that windows OS  is FULLY compatible with ALL software versions through all the years, even the oldest games do run on modern windows systems ... it´s not for 100%, but I have to mention that it is the task of microsoft, to KEEP the compatibility ALIVE. If not, there will be lot of nonsence coming up. Microsoft could also stop to take care of supporting different features or switch away bad things, like explorer and other tools...but they luckily don´t . 

 

As KIMY´s intention is understood correctly, she will be with DD once completely independent and autonom. I mentioned some pages before, that is IS VERY bad, to have only one only framework for everything. Because some people like it different. And this is fine that way.

As long zap is not exploited to be only for DD the parts-warehouse, her idea is well and fine:-)

 

That´s because I do not like any more grabbing off my work into other mods. If DD wants to overtake the old zap furnitures, it is okay, but I want for regular no exchange anymore because the DD team is STRONG enough to create their own things. My personal work should not be shared and dealed away like it´s nothing-I stay to support zap as well I can.

 

I do still believe into zap because it is a very handy framework. I can create furnitures that can run with every questmod together and I can also add all other stuff, that will spend more nicer gameplay and most of you have seen, that it´s a fairly HUGE resource for now. When I sometimes run through the testcell I can not anymore understand what´s there all around me...

 

The new offsets are also my work , you can´t see them in the testcell, but you can wear them. I want also the offsets to stay in zap. Pretty sure that they can be handled together with DD.

 

 

About "missing" keywords: it´s possible to ask me to add keywords to the framework. This will not affect older stuff and it´s functionality, as we had between the v6.11 and v.7.

As long I did not add some code to the framework, I do not see my person as a "maintainer" of this mod. But I have some plans to add some new features, that no other mod has so far.

 

Putting the zap furnitures into DD seems to me little funny. Create some different stuff and take care for a richer gameplay in that way. It´s nonsence to take the old animations of zap and copy them to DD...the most animations are so much simple poses, that it is looking weird. 

About animations: Animations can be made in a fantastic way, that we can see within the mod of OSEX. This is a phantastic work, but I am personally little afraid to get into so much detail, as the animations are not becoming a real part of skyrim !!! 

At least I want to replace older animations to be more beautiful and that are made with the latest skeleton and technical possibilities I can afford. 

(I´m finally scared with that missalignment of pillory, old horse (and it´s bad collision) and some other stuff, that could be working more better.

 

I do, in FIRST LINE MISS to add simple IDLE animations, so that I can exactly add idles with sound/face expression - changing this could SPARE OUT A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF animations, who are counted by fnis double and tripple-times. (every furniture entry and exit is counted, not important, if the exit is always the same !!!)

 

I asked KIMY to take part of modding DD, add my stuff to it (offsets, for now) and to make DD my second testing-field for such a stuff. I can of course also FEED another framework with contence like I do here inside of ZAP. But my personal opinion is, that the "teamplay" has it´s limits. I can tell you this way: I need a serious mod to feed with serious stuff.

 

My little offer aside:

So now - this is a chance for DD to become more (what it was?)...lore friendly?...yes! I am creating two new additional working partitions tonight and I could install there one one of them DD(e) - and I will tolerate the effects, that DD has on the system,...if my adds I create then, are seriously staying inside the pack and if those things do find their release, I can maybe make DD my second friend of mine.

But I must admit that I am no teamplayer...you must "gulp" what I do like and what I create...LOL.

 

I´m modding inside of zap, because it´s the easiest way now for me, to bring stuff into the game. If zazChris would appear with another update again, I´d stop to make this offer for download because I do not like to steal his show. He had some very cute stuff in the latest videos, he send me. They are very complicated (like the WRIST-RAGDOLLand ANKLE RAGDOLL chain), he had excellent ideas and he got them to be working. If you "Chris" read this, you could maybe send me a p.m. with your latest projects-ready or not, I could ADD them to the PACK-and I could create also again some differnt things of it !!!!

 

I told KIMY, that I will create quest-mods without DD and she couldn´t understand me. It´s not easy to start with scripting and I must reduce the parameter to a minimum. The more frameworks, I would have to take care for, the more complicated it may be. I CAN sexLab !! -But I can´t  zap for now ggg.

 

And I also must not have a "perfect" framework under my keyboard-tipping. If the gamer is looking, that the character gets tied and begins to try to use the keyboard and it´s not reacting...okay. I personally don´t need a key-locking-but zap has one that is far good enough for the skyrim gameplay. Okay, INTE is right if zap has the lock hold on, then you can´t break also the zap-offset-there´s only ONE way: the water collision. This will be changed.

 

DD and ZAP can work together, as long DD will not destroy the zap functions. The change of framework or a partitional switch -off is funny and not serious. DD is also not switching something, instead it´s trying to widen it´s  offer. So read between the lines (sometimes it is a must) and be happy to have so much possibilities.

 

What is exactly missing in zap is the heraetical stuff, as it is much more suiting to zap (it´s made of zap items), beside I want it for repairing and I can create new stuff from it in addition. I could do it all for myself, but when it gets into zap, it will be steady inside. But this is not focussed now.

 

ZAP is no concurence "product" of DD and it´s basic stuff came mostly from oblivion and skyrim itself - pillory and gibbets and horses followed. And I stay on my personal opinion, that the framework is been made in wise forseight and brings together in a very fine way all the goodies to play BD/SM in skyrim.

 

The existing material of resources can be used for many-many years without any need of updates. This makes a good resource.

And if an OLDER mods needs older versions, then use the older version. They are light-weighted and do work proper.

But I did everything, so that zap can stay as a new version aside, playable with everything and imo not obsolate...sorry, not obsolate inside of my mods.

 

I know that people do always look for something new, items, clothing, restraints....ähm...what we can else create for next...and so on and so on.

I don´t like to press down my foot onto the khajiit´s tale (if having one) , but zap is MY NO.1  resource for skyrim´s BDSM-gameplay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CGi]

Change is a necessity and even SexLab went through enough of them to render older mods obsolete or in a non-working state.

One can always leave old version available for download in case users need an older version for older mods what solves this "problem".

[Veladarius]

For me ZAP is my go to source for animations and furniture and truthfully when I started building CD I didn't even know ZAP had any sort of framework within it for items much of anything else for that matter, my skills at examining scripts and decoding them to figure out the commands is not that great and as someone that used to document processes and dealing with programmers I can definitively say that just about every programmer makes a lot of assumptions about the knowledge of the user and leaves things out.

 

Now that I am somewhat better at decoding other peoples work I intend to look into the ZAP animation to see what I can make use of so CD works better. While CD may be centered on DD items it could not exist without ZAP either and its use is becoming more prominent as I move forward.

 

I won't give suggestions on ways to make ZAP and DD v4 compatible since I don't really know enough about how ZAP handles the keywords with the furniture but looking at the furniture it is obvious as to why they are there. I do know that for me to be fully compatible with DD v4 I would have to rebuild every device and custom device script I have and v4 isn't worth it.

 

Kimy doesn't care about backwards compatibility or what DD users want, she just cares about what she wants to do with it and her uses for it which has made a lot of mods no longer work with it especially with custom versions of some devices. The existing system of adding settings to the devices could have easily been used alongside an MCM menu for player settings and have the ability for device settings to override the MCM menu settings, especially on quest items but player control was not something she cared about (or even seemingly wanted in DD).

[CGi]

That's all nice and dandy but doesn't help solving the problem at hand.

[t.ara]

10 minutes ago, CGi said:

Change is a necessity and even SexLab went through enough of them to render older mods obsolete or in a non-working state.

One can always leave old version available for download in case users need an older version for older mods what solves this "problem".

That´s much different, what I heard in the past. Me personally, I was looking to forward with zap in the very past time - AND I had the same argument to let older versions to be online for download - exactly my words....

lol-

 

I´ll change no framework-function inside of zap8 and higher.

 

 

 

[CGi]

8 minutes ago, t.ara said:

I´ll change no framework-function inside of zap8 and higher.

My suggestion was not about changing functions or functionality.
Maybe you should ask your scripter. He's very likely better in explaining what i tried to suggest.

 

P.s.: Suggestions is all i'm making in my try to find a solution. What this'll be in the end is still up to debate.

[t.ara]

15 minutes ago, CGi said:

My suggestion was not about changing functions or functionality.
Maybe you should ask your scripter. He's very likely better in explaining what i tried to suggest.

 

P.s.: Suggestions is all i'm making in my try to find a solution. What this'll be in the end is still up to debate.

Nice:-)

I do not have a scripter...i´m only a single-man-hobby- factory  here;-)))

I know-sorry for being harsh, but I´m sometimes reacting impulsive!

 

p.s. are you a scripter?

[CGi]

7 minutes ago, t.ara said:

I know-sorry for being harsh, but I´m sometimes reacting impulsive!

 

p.s. are you a scripter?

No problem. After reading most of this discussion i was aware that temperaments are heated on all sides.

 

Yes and no. i know how to use Papyrus for my needs but i'm far away from the likes of Ashal, Kimy or Veladarius (alphabetical order so no1 can blame be for taking a side because i'll definitely not ... well ... i'm on the users side but that doesn't count).

[t.ara]

so our account Icons do suit quite well together (side by side) ... the Overall "rest" seems to be same way...ggg

Veladarius´s  Icon instead reminds me always of a bunch of black (no.8?) billard-balls streaming out of the mouth - it´s very impressive:-)

Suggestion:-->new thread: what account Icons tell about their users!

[CGi]

i really hi-jacked inte's thread. Sorry for that but i just couldn't hold back and at least try to find a consent that we can build upon.

[Psalam]

17 minutes ago, t.ara said:

so our account Icons do suit quite well together (side by side) ... the Overall "rest" seems to be same way...ggg

Veladarius´s  Icon instead reminds me always of a bunch of black (no.8?) billard-balls streaming out of the mouth - it´s very impressive:-)

Suggestion:-->new thread: what account Icons tell about their users!

Actually T.ara I asked Veladrius about that. I hope that he chooses to repeat his story here (it is his story to tell, not mine). It is an interesting thread idea.

When you say the icons don't suit do you mean Veladrius or CGI because I think that Veladrius' fits very well with yours.

[t.ara]

12 minutes ago, Psalam said:

Actually T.ara I asked Veladrius about that. I hope that he chooses to repeat his story here (it is his story to tell, not mine). It is an interesting thread idea.

When you say the icons don't suit do you mean Veladrius or CGI because I think that Veladrius' fits very well with yours.

I hopefully told that it´s suiting between me and CGI, simply because of it´s both background, nothing serious:-))

 

Me I have been living with a cat for 18 years during my youth, but my pic could also show a usual bird.

My cat wasn´t black, she was Grey. But the face on my Icon looks like my old cat´s face, surly exceptionally the Color of eyes.

[Psalam]

1 minute ago, t.ara said:

I hopefully told that it´s suiting between me and CGI, simply because of it´s both background, nothing serious:-))

 

Me I have been living with a cat for 18 years during my youth, but my pic could also show a usual bird.

My cat wasn´t black, she was Grey. But the face on my Icon looks like my old cat´s face.

The language wasn't clear (in that it wasn't specific) - but I take your point. 

 

I love your cat. We are down to only three now but one is a black "farm" cat that looks like your icon. We (my wife and I) had a beautiful gray Russian Blue that looked nothing like your icon - he was just as crazy as he could be. 

[t.ara]

14 minutes ago, Psalam said:

The language wasn't clear (in that it wasn't specific) - but I take your point. 

 

I love your cat. We are down to only three now but one is a black "farm" cat that looks like your icon. We (my wife and I) had a beautiful gray Russian Blue that looked nothing like your icon - he was just as crazy as he could be. 

;-) thanks-I´ll Little take a break and then I go on with THIS...this top-secret and COLORFULL MOD !!!

[Psalam]

2 minutes ago, t.ara said:

;-) thanks-I´ll Little take a break and then I go on with THIS...this top-secret and COLORFULL MOD !!!

I'll love to hear this back story when it becomes available. 

BTW I hope you will take up Einarr the Red on his offer and join us in working on his mod (the offer is on the ZAP thread).