Prison Overhaul Patched (LE)

[Brommer]

 

 

 

 

1. Is that repeatable, or did it happen just once.

2. Must be a leftover from a pre POP 8h patch. Do a

MarkForDelete

on him/her in console.

 

 

Sorry, I already overwrote the quicksave I had right before release, but I got arrested again, I'll see if it happens again.

This time I'm in Riften with a companion. Good to see that companions now also get whipped in the cell. However, they are not fixed in place like the player and get pushed around by the whipping. The second funny thing is that I was brought to the pillory, but my follower is in the X-cross. Is this intentional? It works fine, but when Madesi went to have fun with my follower it played a pillory animation instead of an x-cross animation.

[Morferous]

This would need to have a toggle as some people that are into one off game items (like Dawnbreaker/Chillrend) will hate this. Why, I'm not sure as you can make a much more powerful enchanted weapon yourself, but anyway.

 

Not making the player's stuff disappearing, rather keeping it in a secure storage. The player could get its stuff back 2 ways: being good or being bad. Being bad of course involve sneaking and possibly murder. Being good is just the way of the bureaucrats and involve the player not breaking the law for a period of time (or do some "community" work, idk).

 

 

Otherwise a good idea, but it can halt the progress in the Thieves Guild, if unique armor is lost and distributed spare armor pieces are already used.

 

I don't mind loosing the gold and other stuff (I am using optional coin weight file for Skyrim Coin Replacer Redux, so I rarely carry a lot of it at one time), but loosing my precious Thieves Guild armor always worries me.

 

I know that I could just store one part to safe place, make a new set with Complete Crafting Overhaul Remade and then enchant it, but that would tie build around using Enchanting skill tree.

 

I am one of those who do not wish to loose their unique stuff for good, because not all of my characters are using Enchanting at all. My thief is a thief, not a mage. She does not know any spells (not even starting spells, thanks to my settings in Disparity) and is disgusted by the thought of using even animal souls that way.

 

Now my night blade did not have that problem, but she was an assassin/mage/vampire. Black soul gems were all fair game for her. She got so powerful that sometimes loosing items for good would have done only good to that character.

 

What I am saying is that such features in mods can be very fun for one character, but very problematic for other RP characters.

 

And yes, I know these were suggested as optional choices and Inte already responded above. I wanted to explain why some players are hanging on to their precious unique items: forcing to craft better ones on their own would limit their RP possibilities.

[bicobus]

Well if you're a thief already you can just sneak in, pick the lock and take your stuff back. If you play a barbarian-type, I don't see why you would just take some random armor and weapon then burst in the bank yelling "Where is my stuff!?".

 

As I proposed, the equipment shouldn't be forever gone but kept as collateral. Depending on your offense, the amount of time it is kept may change in length and not kept at all if you only did petty crimes.

[javamonsoon]

Well if you're a thief already you can just sneak in, pick the lock and take your stuff back. If you play a barbarian-type, I don't see why you would just take some random armor and weapon then burst in the bank yelling "Where is my stuff!?".

 

As I proposed, the equipment shouldn't be forever gone but kept as collateral. Depending on your offense, the amount of time it is kept may change in length and not kept at all if you only did petty crimes.

I'm kinda disagreeing with PO being made a game that could stand on it's own as more and more weight is being placed on extras that aim to exist only to annoy. Already when you steal a loaf a bread and your options for PO are out of the box your Dova will be

1. Raped several times over by the guards,

2. Abused by the good people of whatever hold your Dova is in,

3. Put in a cage to be several times over raped by another prisoner for the pleasure of the Jarl

4. Punished by the jailor before being set free again.

Riiiiight... all for a loaf of bread, aye?

 

Let's add losing all your stuff to that! Because cool! Where's the RP in that? Not even mentioning the high chance that your Dova ends up in lock-up again because she had to go over the line stealing a cloak for when Frostfall is active, lol. Just saying. I mean, already PO has a good chance of being the most important activity your Dova is involved in. Making stuff optional sounds like a good idea, but it will just serve as a relief for annoyed people which makes it missing the point a little and ultimately a waste of time for the developer. 

[bicobus]

That is an issue, I agree with you. You shouldn't get jailed if you miss click and take an owner item laying on a stand because you tried to talk to that NPC across it. Or pick a flower or whatever stupid nonsense. Which is why prison overhaul could try to actually overhaul the prison system... But hey, it's just a poor mechanic made by bethesda. They could have made it so the merchant ask you to pay for what you took instead of yelling bloody thief!

 

Now, let say your character is a murderous bastard. Killed hundreds and finally caught. Wouldn't keeping his tools of murder be a sane decision?

[Punga]

I'd like to side with "against removal of unique armor" crowd here.

That being said, I like bicobus's idea that the armor rather than being lost forever is kept as ransom.

I can tell you ransom does work as proven by yours truly when I held Slorm's bucket for ransom until Inte released POP 8h. You're all welcome.

Now to get your stuff back you need to go on a quest and service the Jarl's brother or something similar.

Unfortunately that will be a catch 22 situation if your Dova is as weak as Inte's when not in armor.

Perhaps a better idea would be to release the prisoner wearing a special collar that would prohibit fighting and magic, and give all items back. The collar can only be removed by the jarl upon completion of some quest. All this as a punishment for violent crimes.

[Slorm]

Fair enough, if no one likes the idea, that's why I did suggest a toggle for it, but I do like bicobus's refinement which would work well and let everyone play the way they want. If your stuff matters then you can get it back and if you don't care you can just abandon it and rough up some bandits to get some more.

 

I tend to find even without armour the pc can be overpowered against low level foes (bandits, wolves and the like) You can even take out a lone Forsworn naked and bare handed if they are one of the hunters (bow and knife) though it normally does take a couple to tries as you have to get in close enough without getting shot and punch their lights out .

 

Out of curiosity I tried three wolves with a level 6 character Adept level no armour or weapons just bare fists and it's doable with care, 2 are easy the third one can be a bit tricky as the pc has taken a fair bit of damage if you are not using a Heal spell or potion, but not impossible.

 

I would take issue on one point made about RP, if you were thrown into a jail at that time assuming you even survived the experience you would have just been tossed into the street naked in all likelihood. Dark age and Medieval jails were not noted for their kindness or fairness so I don't see the RP argument holds water personally, quite the opposite. If the NPC guards are RPing as well then chances are you wouldn't get your stuff back.

[bicobus]

Slorm's takes on the medieval prison triggered my nerd nerve, be prepared. This has probably nothing to do with the mod though, but could give ideas. Erh!

 

Prison time and experience highly depended on your status and wealth. You could very well have your own palace in the prison, or even not go to prison at all since prisons sentences could be escaped by paying a set fine. If you were noble, then, it's just you being put into house arrest (more or less). For the common rabble though, yeah, nobody really care about those.

 

The unfairness of the prisons of old were when the prisoners (or their family) had to pay for their food, water, bath and other necessities. Inmates where also tortured for their confessions, if they refused to acknowledge their wrong. I mean, it's as simple as accusing the thief and then letting the thief confess "yes, I stole that.". There were tribunals, of course, but if I remember right the accused must confess his or her crimes.

 

A global "how to be a jailer" guide weren't present, thus each prison were diverse as to how the internal system went about. As I said, the unfairness solely reposed on the difficulty to run a prison rather than the era. You have to pay the people who watch over the inmates and you have to feed and keep said inmates alive. And before dedicated structures were built to house inmates (those where roughly 16th century), prisons were just some appropriated buildings, the Tower of London being a good example of that.

 

Of course, alongside this, you have all sort of punishment that were judged necessary at the time. Like the stocks, flogging or other corporal or capital punishment. Other than that they weren't monsters or barbaric, once sent back in the streets the inmates wouldn't be naked. The inmate paid for their crimes and are now free men (or women), and thus deserve basic respect. Even during the incarceration, the inmates could still appeal to the king or present ruler and ask for grace, or contact friends and family to find someone ready to pay the fine. Even in prison, they are still subjects of the kingdom. It's also a period when people where deeply religious and would consider the ankle of the fair sex erotic. Sadly you can still find the crazy warden who strips inmates of all clothing and deliver them naked to the cell.

 

Anyhow, the prison system of the medieval period is fascinating - everything so wrong and bath in ignorance. Did you know that if your crime was of blasphemous nature, you could ask for grace and be granted the right to do a pilgrimage to atone your crime? You'd sometimes also be required to do that without shoes, a set of specific clothes or even while carrying a candle. And more on that, you'd have to do it yourself and not by procuration, requiring you to get a certificate from the designated place attesting your presence. Not by procuration because you could ask (pay) people to pray for your soul while you were out warring, killing people, which would nullify or reduce your time in purgatory.

[Inte]

Had Karliah as follower via AFT and had outfit management on and she lost everything and didn't get it back except for an ebony dagger.  Don't know if that's part of the mod feature about the guards/jailer keeping your stuff on occasion or not.  When I first recruited her, I had to give her a duplicate of all my Nightingale gear and weapons since hers doesn't show up in her inventory with AFT.  I didn't feel like going back to a save before the arrest or going on with her no longer having Nightingale gear so I was like f**k it, just dupe my stuff for her again.  Karliah is really cute in a pillory too so it was worth the trouble.

 

I can pretty much evade capture by bounty hunters indefinitely now though it gets to the point where you are spending all your time getting ready for their next appearance (waiting until late at night on rooftops or in dark corners crouched down, etc.).  I was thinking that having more than one show up in the beginning rather than the calling for backup after the arrest would be a good idea, that way it would be a lot harder to get the drop on all two or three of them when before there was only one.  Having them sneaking around invisible would be pretty neat too.  If I see them before they see me, even when trying to Ninja me, I have ample time to encase them with Ice Form and at that point it is easy to kill them or get away if I chose to spare them.  On another note, the prisons are impossible to escape from as far as I can tell though I did glitch out of the cell when I fed on the jailer.  He was close to the bars with his back to me so I was like, why not?  I glitched into the cell next to mine and got the prisoner has escaped notification.  Then the jailer bound me in a belt and bra and arm restraints to punish me for attacking him after which he left the jail and headed back toward Windhelm since his job was finished as I had escaped leaving me to fight off guards with nothing but roundhouse kicks.  So I ended up running out into the wilderness bound and gagged just to see how far I could get and went back to a save before I bit him since I didn't want to escape by means of a glitch and ended up serving the rest of my four day sentence.  Plenty of time to watch a couple of movies and clean my kitchen while I wait.

 

For the followers stuff, I just do a RemoveAll to some container. Not sure why only the follower's stuff would sometimes disappear. Is it custom gear?

I too have a set of custom Nightingale gear that I would be very upset if it disappeared.  

 

Well, if the BHs are distracting you from your game and perhaps making you a bit paranoid, they are doing their job.

 

Actually I was toying with the invisible BHs but I just could not go through with it.

Player should have a fighting chance. In fact, paranoia is what I was aiming for. I'd say mission accomplished?

 

Another thing I was toying with (maybe a bit too cruel?) was in HC mode the BH's MCM menu would not show up*, and the delay for them to show up would be random, say between 0 and the time setup in the MCM.  

 

Wait, you were able to feed on the jailer with the cuffs on and him not sleeping? How? A mod for sure.

 

I do other things while POP is running as well.

I tried to make POP as 'automated' as possible for that reason. I do have one scene that still requires player feedback, which I am about the rectify. I am trying to find a way to stop the spinning screen on idle 'feature' but there does not seem to be an easy way to do it.  

 

* - See, right now you can just look in the MCM and it will tell you if you have a BH on your tail.

 

[Inte]

Fair enough, if no one likes the idea, that's why I did suggest a toggle for it, but I do like bicobus's refinement which would work well and let everyone play the way they want. If your stuff matters then you can get it back and if you don't care you can just abandon it and rough up some bandits to get some more.

 

I tend to find even without armour the pc can be overpowered against low level foes (bandits, wolves and the like) You can even take out a lone Forsworn naked and bare handed if they are one of the hunters (bow and knife) though it normally does take a couple to tries as you have to get in close enough without getting shot and punch their lights out .

 

Out of curiosity I tried three wolves with a level 6 character Adept level no armour or weapons just bare fists and it's doable with care, 2 are easy the third one can be a bit tricky as the pc has taken a fair bit of damage if you are not using a Heal spell or potion, but not impossible.

 

I would take issue on one point made about RP, if you were thrown into a jail at that time assuming you even survived the experience you would have just been tossed into the street naked in all likelihood. Dark age and Medieval jails were not noted for their kindness or fairness so I don't see the RP argument holds water personally, quite the opposite. If the NPC guards are RPing as well then chances are you wouldn't get your stuff back.

 

Well now, when you put it that way.

 

Actually implementing your idea, where your stuff gets nuked (say when violent crime is above 1000g) is not that hard to implement if you're using DDe. The function to move already equipped stuff to a container is already there. The problem is if the player does not use DDe, because I would have to duplicate that function to POP and it will fight the one from DDe. Hmm ...

 

[Inte]

Oh,

There is an option in the POP MCM for us vampires to get blood potions instead of food.

[Inte]

 

Well if you're a thief already you can just sneak in, pick the lock and take your stuff back. If you play a barbarian-type, I don't see why you would just take some random armor and weapon then burst in the bank yelling "Where is my stuff!?".

 

As I proposed, the equipment shouldn't be forever gone but kept as collateral. Depending on your offense, the amount of time it is kept may change in length and not kept at all if you only did petty crimes.

I'm kinda disagreeing with PO being made a game that could stand on it's own as more and more weight is being placed on extras that aim to exist only to annoy. Already when you steal a loaf a bread and your options for PO are out of the box your Dova will be

1. Raped several times over by the guards,

2. Abused by the good people of whatever hold your Dova is in,

3. Put in a cage to be several times over raped by another prisoner for the pleasure of the Jarl

4. Punished by the jailor before being set free again.

Riiiiight... all for a loaf of bread, aye?

 

Let's add losing all your stuff to that! Because cool! Where's the RP in that? Not even mentioning the high chance that your Dova ends up in lock-up again because she had to go over the line stealing a cloak for when Frostfall is active, lol. Just saying. I mean, already PO has a good chance of being the most important activity your Dova is involved in. Making stuff optional sounds like a good idea, but it will just serve as a relief for annoyed people which makes it missing the point a little and ultimately a waste of time for the developer. 

 

 

Eloquently put.

 

[Madrias]

Honestly, regarding the whole "losing your stuff" thing, I don't necessarily agree with it.  As much as I understand some people would want it, I outright hate losing my stuff, mostly because it always seems that I end up having to travel all the way across frickin' Skyrim to get back my dragon-bone armor and my enchanted weapons.  And I play with settings that make that trip a little bit unfair.  I'm not totally defenseless without my good armor and weapons, but having to use whatever I've found to make the trip... Not my cup of tea.

 

However, I think losing all of your gold would be more than fair.  It's easy enough to get most of it back in Skyrim (normal economy) and with a few tweaks, it takes a bit of effort getting gold back.  But then again, it means you still have a lasting punishment beyond just losing your stolen goods and some prison time.  Plus, it's easily justified as being a combination of "Some went to pay down your bounty, so you wouldn't be in here quite as long.  Some went to feeding you, some more of that gold went as reparations to the Jarl for disturbing their peace, some to the victim(s) and/or their next of kin.  And some lined the Jailer's pocket."

 

Alternatively, offer an on/off switch for both.

 

One for losing your items (with a way to get them back) and one for losing your gold.

 

As for where to store the items and how to get them back...  I've got an idea.

 

Store the Items in this mysterious Jailer's Place I keep hearing about, and to get your stuff back, you'll have to do several favors for the Jailer.  No waiting around for a certain amount of time first, no, you'd have to willingly go to this mystery place, seek out the Jailer, and let him have his way with you, multiple times, before he'd let you have your gear back.

[Inte]

 

Or put it all in a container at the end of the Labyrinth for violent crimes above 1000g and in the Maze for violent crimes bellow that.

 

EDIT: And you would have to do that in full bondage gear, like someone else has tried and failed.

 

Muhaha!

[Numerals]

Any chance that you can make PO not mess with the camera while in the pillory? It interferes with the use of free camera, getting it stuck after only a second or so of movement.

[WaxenFigure]

That is an issue, I agree with you. You shouldn't get jailed if you miss click and take an owner item laying on a stand because you tried to talk to that NPC across it. Or pick a flower or whatever stupid nonsense. Which is why prison overhaul could try to actually overhaul the prison system... But hey, it's just a poor mechanic made by bethesda. They could have made it so the merchant ask you to pay for what you took instead of yelling bloody thief!

 

Now, let say your character is a murderous bastard. Killed hundreds and finally caught. Wouldn't keeping his tools of murder be a sane decision?

Anyone hear about the wonderful mod named "Block Steal"? It prevents you from accidentally stealing items, your thefts have to be deliberate.

 

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/61605/?

[Slorm]

 

bicobus, on 21 Sept 2016 - 12:57 AM, said:

Slorm's takes on the medieval prison triggered my nerd nerve, be prepared. This has probably nothing to do with the mod though, but could give ideas. Erh!

Prison time and experience highly depended on your status and wealth. You could very well have your own palace in the prison, or even not go to prison at all since prisons sentences could be escaped by paying a set fine. If you were noble, then, it's just you being put into house arrest (more or less). For the common rabble though, yeah, nobody really care about those.

The unfairness of the prisons of old were when the prisoners (or their family) had to pay for their food, water, bath and other necessities. Inmates where also tortured for their confessions, if they refused to acknowledge their wrong. I mean, it's as simple as accusing the thief and then letting the thief confess "yes, I stole that.". There were tribunals, of course, but if I remember right the accused must confess his or her crimes.

A global "how to be a jailer" guide weren't present, thus each prison were diverse as to how the internal system went about. As I said, the unfairness solely reposed on the difficulty to run a prison rather than the era. You have to pay the people who watch over the inmates and you have to feed and keep said inmates alive. And before dedicated structures were built to house inmates (those where roughly 16th century), prisons were just some appropriated buildings, the Tower of London being a good example of that.

Of course, alongside this, you have all sort of punishment that were judged necessary at the time. Like the stocks, flogging or other corporal or capital punishment. Other than that they weren't monsters or barbaric, once sent back in the streets the inmates wouldn't be naked. The inmate paid for their crimes and are now free men (or women), and thus deserve basic respect. Even during the incarceration, the inmates could still appeal to the king or present ruler and ask for grace, or contact friends and family to find someone ready to pay the fine. Even in prison, they are still subjects of the kingdom. It's also a period when people where deeply religious and would consider the ankle of the fair sex erotic. Sadly you can still find the crazy warden who strips inmates of all clothing and deliver them naked to the cell.

Anyhow, the prison system of the medieval period is fascinating - everything so wrong and bath in ignorance. Did you know that if your crime was of blasphemous nature, you could ask for grace and be granted the right to do a pilgrimage to atone your crime? You'd sometimes also be required to do that without shoes, a set of specific clothes or even while carrying a candle. And more on that, you'd have to do it yourself and not by procuration, requiring you to get a certificate from the designated place attesting your presence. Not by procuration because you could ask (pay) people to pray for your soul while you were out warring, killing people, which would nullify or reduce your time in purgatory.

 

 

Sorry totally OT now. Wall of text so ignore if you're not into history which is why I've put into spoilers with bicobus's really interesting post.

 

 

 

Thank you for that bicobus it was an interesting read though perhaps targeted somewhat more towards medieval and early renaissance rather than the previous feudal society which in rl would be Nordic or Saxon at around (I would guess) the 6th to 10th century roughly (stone build structures seem to appear around the 5th century onward).

 

Later on there was quite a sophisticated law making apparatus in place and indeed much of current England's laws are still based on Saxon law rather than Roman law which is reflected very much in the Court system here which is adversarial rather than inquisitorial (in it's true meaning) in much of Europe.

 

Nevertheless, wealth and standing does bring privilege and as you rightly point out far better treatment. This is well illustrated in Tudor times though of course conditions were still not that great and it did to some extent depend of who you'd upset further up the hierarchy.

 

Going back to feudal times is less clear though but I think it's safe to assume that human nature does not change very much and I suspect the issues then were much more to do with basic survival.

 

Now let's take Inte's goats ( ) if I nick one today, Inte will curse paying the excess on the insurance but would suffer a small loss which would be taken into account by the Court so I'd get some community service and a fine. If I did the same thing back in the 9th century it would carry a a much more serious penalty as it could be life threatening due to the dependence on agriculture and animals for day to day survival. It would also have a knock on effect as a serf or peasant was a form of production and taxation for both Freeman and the Thane so a crime would affect them as well and their wellbeing. Now unless you were some highborn Earl's (Jarl's) son who could afford to pay, you'd probably have hard time in the lockups and come missing a hand at least.

 

Whether they'd throw you out naked is a matter for conjecture as it would depend on whether you had anything worth taking, and how desperate your guards were, as in some poor areas they might be in poverty and so grab anything they can as no one cared about a common thief.

 

Anyway an interesting diversion.

 

 

[Inte]

Any chance that you can make PO not mess with the camera while in the pillory? It interferes with the use of free camera, getting it stuck after only a second or so of movement.

 

It doesn't/shouldn't.

 

[Brommer]

Ok, another prison sentence behind me. The bug where the collar remains in my inventory after release is reproducible. The follower also keeps some items, a log gag and rope cuffs (probably from the arrest). Riften has a few bugs when compared to whiterun. All four days, I was put into the pillory and my follower into the x-cross. It mostly works, but it always plays pillory animations for the follower (I set "xcross" as tag for x-cross animations in MCM).

The jailer had problems with the door between the jail and Riften city, from both sides, so I had to use fast-forward to get around. Actually after release, the door is now fully broken, I cannot enter the jail at all. The whole thing may be a vanilla Skyrim problem, not sure, but I have had broken doors before.

[Bonding1005]

Lately, I was a very bad girl, so I had quite some encounters with your BH's which resulted in several prison sentences. Two things had me wondering a bit:

1) If you select fast forward (doesn't matter if once or always), it takes sometimes nearly a minute until the teleport. That was not the case earlier. Any reason for that?

2) When I resisted the BH's, they got hostile and killed me. Is that intentional? I thought they would use their paralyze spell / weapon and then arrest me. What happened was that they paralyzed me all right, but then proceeded to kill me anyway. There's no money for dead prisoners, is it?

[Slorm]

Ok, another prison sentence behind me. The bug where the collar remains in my inventory after release is reproducible.

 

It's pretty much always done that for me, I think it's a present from Inte, not a bug.

 

Sell it to Belethor or player.removeitem it

 

[Guest emilio]

it seems female player prisoner will peg male follower prisoner during jailed scenes despite excluding options checked in MCM tabbed. maybe this is due to POP sexlab? is there anyway to exclude threesome tags there? 

settings look like this

https://gyazo.com/8cad7d098ad5eba8c591e4198b4e9f38

[Inte]

Lately, I was a very bad girl, so I had quite some encounters with your BH's which resulted in several prison sentences. Two things had me wondering a bit:

1) If you select fast forward (doesn't matter if once or always), it takes sometimes nearly a minute until the teleport. That was not the case earlier. Any reason for that?

2) When I resisted the BH's, they got hostile and killed me. Is that intentional? I thought they would use their paralyze spell / weapon and then arrest me. What happened was that they paralyzed me all right, but then proceeded to kill me anyway. There's no money for dead prisoners, is it?

 

1. The delay is intentional, to allow scripts to settle down after an arrest.

2. If you resist them through dialog, and don't have DA - yes, it is a fight to the death. If you do have DA, then that will trigger an arrest when the hp is low enough. Also, if you attack them on sight but then yield by sheading your weapon, they will forgive you once.    

 

[Slorm]

I'm away for a week "darn sarth" while the builders fix the last of the flood damage from last year.

 

Have fun my little scamps and don't let Punga nick my bucket again

[boo]

Did a complete reset of prison overhaul and am still having issues with the in cell whipping scenario with a companion. Just dialogue for myself and my companion and then it ends. Whipping time is set to 120 seconds with cell punishment set to 60 seconds. Maybe an issue with whip time being > cell punish time?