A little warning to mod creators of non adult mods....

Youwish1 · April 25, 2015

Got a reply from Gopher on one of my comments, not sure if im in the wrong anymore, bleh wasnt really thinkin straight. Ima just go away for a while this shit is crazy
You do know that the Gopher isn't god? Actually no idea what you wrote, but a personal conviction is, well, personal. (You never know you may be right - it's a long shot and totally meaningless in the scheme of things, but still.....).
Gopher is nothing but a conformist fool. The only decent thing he does are his modding tutorials. If you want to die a quick death of annoyance and boredom, go watch his LPs.
]]totally agree here, and the way he talks to his viewers is quite shameful sometimes. The other day he basically called every guy that plays as a female is a pervert and a creep...the fuck yo?.

Actually I'm going to have to pick you up on that. I do like his non specific northern type voice, (I suspect Cheshire, but not sure). Mine is a horrible mishmash of esturion/barr'a boy with a mismash of yorkshire, (i.e. horrible). Anyway I've never over the years heard him do anything other than straight PC - unless you talk about him picking up about dialect and pronunciation - which isn't at this time counted as racist. I do like him because if I can't get to sleep and don't want to listen to Old Harrys Games/Revolting People/American Gods/any Lawerence Block book, he is really good. (Mind he is an actual true coder, so will stand up for him whatever - well unless I actually had to work with him).

he never says anything? Not true. He is rude quite a lot and does not give a shit, the way he speaks to his audience is pretty bad. Mind you these are from his streams!.

Zor2k13 · April 25, 2015

Fuck nexus and FUCK Dick0ne he is a sadistic ass hole just like all the other mods at nexus.

Nixea · April 25, 2015

The SkyUI thing is bothering me far more than it should, but I feel like I've been betrayed at some sort of personal level.

And if you look, who all is listed a a creator and contributor to SkyUI....GOPHER! I wonder how much HE is going to make off of them going behind the pay wall? Someone should really ask him that.

Considering that authors get paid a 25% only and that it's actually steam credits rather than actual money, probably not a fucking penny. I just don't get it, one thing is trying to make money, but being a complete dumbwit in purpose seeing how much of an obvious disaster this whole deal is? How does that make any sense? Not only you get way less than half the price, but it's not even real money! At this point, I'm way more frustrated at how fucking idiotic this move is, anyone with a miserable bit of talent could make way more in REAL money by using a donate button, sparing them all the vitrol as a bonus.

Coopervane · April 25, 2015

*sees the thing*

Oooh! That's an interesting idea! I could probably use Steam Workshop as an optional donations platform with this system.

*notices the revenue split*

...

Oksies this idea is awful. Call me after you've fired the con artist in charge of this and you're actually serious about financial cooperation with modders Valve <3

Apparently, you'd more likely make 0% of any profits.

So far it's been established that the mod has to make atleast $400 USD before Valve will even pay the modder, if it makes less than that then Valve considders it beneath them to cut the developer a check.

Buut.. now i'm hearing people on reddit say that it's actually worse than that, that the $400 quota resets every single month, so if the mod isen't selling more than 400 bux every month, then Bethsoft and Valve gets to pocket all the dosh it did make and the author never sees a dime.

If that actually turns out to be true, then this really is a con.

Zor2k13 · April 25, 2015

At a later point in time that is the most beneficial to valve, they could change how much a steam credit is worth so modders get EVEN LESS than they would now. Valve has complete control over this whole thing which is why bugfesta gets the majority of the money no doubt.

dechurch · April 25, 2015

it's not even real money!

See this is what I don't get. How do people not even see that for what it is? The only people who win here are Valve and Bethesda, all while saying how modders get rewarded for their mods. And dipshits swallow that line without a moments thought.

Like back in the day when people used to get paid in company scrip which was only redeemable at the company store. Pretty sure that practice is illegal, now.

Where is the agreement posted? I need to read that for myself.

Ceit · April 25, 2015

OMG!!! It is the end of an era... stupid kids, they have fucked up everything!

It's here to stay. End of story

azoth1267 · April 25, 2015

I've… seen mods you people wouldn't believe… Horse Cocks on fire off the coast of Dawnstar. I watched elf tits glitter in the dark near the Ghostgate. All those… moments… will be lost in time, like tears… in… rain. Time… to die…

(pcgamer apparently wouldn't let me post this in their comments because reasons i guess)

roy would be proud.

+1

Nixea · April 25, 2015

it's not even real money!

See this is what I don't get. How do people not even see that for what it is? The only people who win here are Valve and Bethesda, all while saying how modders get rewarded for their mods. And dipshits swallow that line without a moments thought.

Like back in the day when people used to get paid in company scrip which was only redeemable at the company store. Pretty sure that practice is illegal, now.

Where is the agreement posted? I need to read that for myself.

I find it both funny and sad to see people acting like they're on a heavenly high moral pedestal when defending this, talking about modders being rewarded and whatnot, and how those of us who complain are "entitled" it shows how not only they're cringeworthy as hell in pointlessly defending this, they also have no flipping clue of how this works. Let's see how awful this system is in a few simple points:

-They get paid only a 25% of the price of the item and not even in real money, but a credit exclusive to the service where it's sold.

-Valve literally told Chesko that free mods that were available for download were "fair game" to use as assets (Chesko actually pulled off his mods from sale as a personal gesture, not because Valve had to make him).

-This isn't official DLC, and modders are not official employees, so nobody has any legal obligation in here to offer you support over any possibly game breaking crap you buy, or incompatibilities (imagine Dawnguard being incompatible with Dragonborn, that would be a hilarious disaster).

-24 horus refund is ridiculous, many of the worst issues that are common in Bethesda games are caused long term, such as savegame corruption and that odd ancient bug in Oblivion that caused everything to go incredibly slow.

I could go on, but it's late, I'm sleepy and far too upset over this bullshit than I should.

afa · April 25, 2015

Force people into a single avenue for mods. Bethesda receives a bit of the money generated by all mods bought through this avenue. Bethesda profits directly.
Bethesda already receives a bit of the money generated by all mods bought through this avenue. What does this have to do with the hypothetical scenario of limiting free mods as well?

Bethesda is not required to do anything valve says, but the opposite is also true. Workshop support steam integration is on valve's part. there's has to be a deal to reach between both for this to work. And as far as I know they both take a cut from the sale currently along with the mod creator.
It's true that Valve doesn't have to do what Bethesda wants, but that's not relevant because if it doesn't benefit Bethesda then they're never going to approach Valve with it in the first place. The current agreement doesn't matter because that agreement would have to change.

Traffic not in terms of ads (although secondary is possible, more on that later) but rather mods being download from the workshop itself.
Traffic alone brings no revenue to anyone if there are no ads. Free mods being downloaded from the workshop brings no revenue to anyone if there are no ads.

If there's nexus and workshop, one offer mods for free the other offer mods with a price tag which one will I go to? Which one they want me to go to? How to make me go to the one they want? ...How about there's only one that I can go to?
There is certainly no debate that if they are the only source for mods then naturally all traffic will go to them. But this point does not address the benefit of that traffic to Bethesda.

And let me reiterate again the sheer concept of content and distribution control alone is quite possibly enough. It's just how conservative business decisions are made and how they work. Even if they can't make money from something at the moment it is unlikely that they will give it away because "you never know." It is better to have something sit in a locker to rot than to give it out for free, and if it is something you can have for free (nearly...) it is better to have it just in case.
If content and distribution control was so important, I would think it would have been that way from the beginning, but even assuming it's a new direction for the company for whatever reason, taking this step would not give them what you say they would take the step to get. Valve controls the upload system, the download system, the workshop interface itself, and takes the majority of the profits. If all Bethesda mods are available only on Steam, then Bethesda has no content and distribution control whatsoever. Valve has that control. So what's the benefit to Bethesda?

Even if a scenario exists where both nexus and workshop offer the same mod for free if I were to visit their workshop I am sure I will be treated with a picture of a nice shiny sword with a price tag next to it on the front page...where you know..."just in case this is relevant to your interests..."
And I would have no problem with that.

Edit: didn't realize someone already response to this better than me but I'll just leave it.

It feel like there's some misunderstanding of the issue between us in terms of this whole Valve and Bethesda partnership.

Both Valve and Bethesda feels like they have something to gain by monetizing mods. There is a deal between them to split the profit for sales, I think that's clear enough. More paid mod gets sold more profits for BOTH of them at the same time.

Again, it has nothing to do with 3rd party ads. By traffic I mean traffic to the workshop therefore people get exposure to other mods (it is more or less advertising within their own system) which I have explained, and it really isn't that far of a stretch to consider more exposure to paid mod equals higher chance of people picking them up, therefore more profits for BOTH Valve and Bethesda. Plus If workshop is the only places for paid mods to exist, especially paid mods that Bethesda gets to take a cut of, then there's a very strong incentive for Bethesda to direct all mods to the workshop.

As for the content control, even if Bethesda doesn't have access to the whole machine it still limits where the content are coming and going from greatly to somewhere they have a hand in the pie in at the very least. If they wants to do something else (whatever it might be) they can strike a deal with Valve for whatever they want further down the line, again it is the concept of "you never know...in the future" This falls very much in line with that thinking.

Also I am sure if Bethesda has the capability (and the popularity for the lack of a better word) they would very much like to have access to the whole machine. But Valve is offering a service, one that Valve excel at. Steam is popular, the infrastructure is there already as oppose to if Bethesda want to do this alone they have to do it all on their own from scratch almost (which will cost Bethesda time and money)

It would be interesting to see how their deal work exactly and I don't mean just how the % profits are split but rather what (if any) limitation they have for each other or who has control of what, timeline of the deal, termination, content ownership, etc.

In some sense think of it like a licensed distributor line of thinking and maybe with a touch of "turf protection" even.

Another random thoughts...while people smack on the 25% profit for modder...I don't feel like that's really too bad. For many of the modders their work net them nothing in the past and now have something to gain. Also between the 3 parties I would assume valve should have the largest cut since they are the one ponying up the whole infrastructure.

*rylasasin* · April 25, 2015

And, at least regarding the kitten bit, there are those of us (in the U.S.) who can legally carry guns who would pull them out and put them to the head of the suit and tell them in no uncertain terms to stop, while also calling the cops (or backup, depending on the person in question).

Who then arrest you for assault with a deadly weapon and drag you off to an overloaded max security prison for 30+ years (on the LIGHT end). (Provided they haven't preemptively killed you, that is. There's a lot of that going around lately.) Meanwhile the anti-gun lobby uses this as an excuse to push for more gun laws and the NRA uses this as an example of why we need more guns so "upstanding ethical americans" people can protect those poor business people from "insane psychopaths" while the whole kitten thing is slipped silently under the rug or when it comes up the media on both sides makes up some shitty excuse for it or cries crocodile tears and talks about the importance of ethical consumerism over direct action.

...And meanwhile I look on, sigh, and whisper: Nice Job Breaking It Hero.

*Dayelyte* · April 25, 2015

The fallout from this will be a bit wider than most realize.

While many mods here on LL will never be found anywhere else, many of them rely on other mods as dependencies to function. ( Eg: SkyUI, FNIS, etc )

If any of the dependencies end up behind a paywall, it throws a mighty big wrench into the entire system.

LidiaSun · April 25, 2015

Sorry I have a big Question. !!!!!!

What will be the policy in this site? I am asking because either if i want to use contents from here or upload in the future some mods or just testing some mods I want to know if it will remain free. I want to have the feeling that what ever I will decide to do in the future will be in a community for free. So it is essential for me to know which site I will call as a home.

Just a fun comment ~ how much as users must charge for testing mods? ~

p.s. sorry for any mistakes English are not my Native language.

Ηρθε ή ώρα το Skyrim να μείνει ελέυθερο. ~ It has the time to keep Skyrim free.

dechurch · April 25, 2015

it's not even real money!

See this is what I don't get. How do people not even see that for what it is? The only people who win here are Valve and Bethesda, all while saying how modders get rewarded for their mods. And dipshits swallow that line without a moments thought.

Like back in the day when people used to get paid in company scrip which was only redeemable at the company store. Pretty sure that practice is illegal, now.

Where is the agreement posted? I need to read that for myself.

I find it both funny and sad to see people acting like they're on a heavenly high moral pedestal when defending this, talking about modders being rewarded and whatnot, and how those of us who complain are "entitled" it shows how not only they're cringeworthy as hell in pointlessly defending this, they also have no flipping clue of how this works. Let's see how awful this system is in a few simple points:

-They get paid only a 25% of the price of the item and not even in real money, but a credit exclusive to the service where it's sold.

-Valve literally told Chesko that free mods that were available for download were "fair game" to use as assets (Chesko actually pulled off his mods from sale as a personal gesture, not because Valve had to make him).

-This isn't official DLC, and modders are not official employees, so nobody has any legal obligation in here to offer you support over any possibly game breaking crap you buy, or incompatibilities (imagine Dawnguard being incompatible with Dragonborn, that would be a hilarious disaster).

-24 horus refund is ridiculous, many of the worst issues that are common in Bethesda games are caused long term, such as savegame corruption and that odd ancient bug in Oblivion that caused everything to go incredibly slow.

I could go on, but it's late, I'm sleepy and far too upset over this bullshit than I should.

You've seen the addition Fore has made in bold and a different color to the license for FNIS?

Erundil · April 25, 2015

Nexus continues it's practice of banning people for commenting about the pay for mods scandal and are locking any threads that want to discuss it.

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2796904-nexus-steam-mods-service-providers/

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2796839-i-want-to-show-my-support-for-isoku-and-chesko/

Both locked by the same mod Vagrant0. Interesting.

I would like to think that most people would be boycotting EA after origin came out but nope still throwing their money at EA and their underwear too:-(

LoL so true

That's the whole problem with the "vote with your wallet" argument right there. And why the whole sentiment of "ethical consumerism" has Never. Accomplished. Anything.

The fact is, 99.999% of consumers are... get this... bone dead retarded and/or heartless. Most of the time they don't have the correct info they need to make an informed decision. And worse, most of the time they don't even care when they have it. They don't care about ethics. They don't care about good business practices. They don't even care about who gets exploited in what way. The only thing "consumers" give a fat fuck about... is getting two dollars off. The suits could literally beat a kitten to death in front of these so called "consumers", and while they might feign disgust, most of them will just turn around and say "does this mean I can get it cheaper?". They might even pretend to enjoy the spectacle in front of them if you offer a dime off the product, will readily cheer if you offer them two, and even join in if you offer a dollar off.

Seriously, if ethical consumerism worked, BP, Walmart, Foxconn, etc. would have gone out of business decades ago, and EA would be a distant memory.

Of course, it's entirely their fault, nor is it really productive to blame consumers. After all, we have a billion dollar industry that's dead set on ensuring this exact, self-centered, irrational behavior. We call it the "advertising industry". And that's even implying they really have an economical choice in the matter at all.

Sure, you have your 0.001% that actually know better AND care enough to act on it AND are in an economically viable enough position to do so, but they are not near enough, and never will be.

Actually the problem is not exactly like this. A lot of ppl knows how to "vote with their wallet", but as statistics show, when it comes to micro-transactions, it's 5-10% of population that makes any purchases at all. Yet this stupid 5-10% is rich enough to make the whole bussiness profitable for the company holding those micro-transactions.

btw it is not legal to post daz3d assets, you may ONLY show screen captures. you may NOT sell or upload assets you buy from the DAZ store.

read their terms closely. you may only use said assets on YOUR own computer period. why do you think Krysta's mods have been banned from Nexus.

100% Daz3d content. shit ton of work went into converting all that stuff but that doesn't negate the terms put forth by DAZ. it's like buying Skyrim, you don't own the game you only bought a license to use it.

Really? Either I'm misunderstanding things, or you are. If what you say is true, then it makes Daz 3D nearly useless. The biggest benefit of Daz 3D seemed to be a shitload of resources to use when making games (or mods). If the license limits Daz to renders, it makes no sense to me.

Just did a Google search on Valve, and the petition to remove the paid content from the workshop is in the results list above their company website and Wikipedia entries.

This is getting epic. I'm sure soon they will do something to position themselves in search engines better. For now we can enjoy our little victory (not like it changes anything in a long term).

DAZ3D terms in part

"Restrictions on Copying. The Content is provided for User's exclusive use. User does not have the right to provide the Content to others in any form or on any media except as set forth in this Agreement. The Content may be copied in whole or in part for User’s exclusive use. Specifically, User may copy the Content onto the storage device of an unlimited number of computers owned or controlled by User. The Content is for User’s exclusive use and no other individual or entity. Each individual must obtain his or her own license to use the Content."

if you are a company then each computer that the content is on must have a license for the content.

this is why there are blogs that have renders/images they sell with characters in different poses and situations. that's the only way the content can be used to make money, by rendered image.

Thanks. Now I'm wiser.

Nixea · April 25, 2015

it's not even real money!

See this is what I don't get. How do people not even see that for what it is? The only people who win here are Valve and Bethesda, all while saying how modders get rewarded for their mods. And dipshits swallow that line without a moments thought.

Like back in the day when people used to get paid in company scrip which was only redeemable at the company store. Pretty sure that practice is illegal, now.

Where is the agreement posted? I need to read that for myself.

I find it both funny and sad to see people acting like they're on a heavenly high moral pedestal when defending this, talking about modders being rewarded and whatnot, and how those of us who complain are "entitled" it shows how not only they're cringeworthy as hell in pointlessly defending this, they also have no flipping clue of how this works. Let's see how awful this system is in a few simple points:

-They get paid only a 25% of the price of the item and not even in real money, but a credit exclusive to the service where it's sold.

-Valve literally told Chesko that free mods that were available for download were "fair game" to use as assets (Chesko actually pulled off his mods from sale as a personal gesture, not because Valve had to make him).

-This isn't official DLC, and modders are not official employees, so nobody has any legal obligation in here to offer you support over any possibly game breaking crap you buy, or incompatibilities (imagine Dawnguard being incompatible with Dragonborn, that would be a hilarious disaster).

-24 horus refund is ridiculous, many of the worst issues that are common in Bethesda games are caused long term, such as savegame corruption and that odd ancient bug in Oblivion that caused everything to go incredibly slow.

I could go on, but it's late, I'm sleepy and far too upset over this bullshit than I should.

You've seen the addition Fore has made in bold and a different color to the license for FNIS?

Does that hold any actual legal weight, though? Even if it does, Valve and Bethesda are big companies that must absolutely have extremely talented and ruthless teams of lawyers behind them.

dechurch · April 25, 2015

The fallout from this will be a bit wider than most realize.

While many mods here on LL will never be found anywhere else, many of them rely on other mods as dependencies to function. ( Eg: SkyUI, FNIS, etc )

If any of the dependencies end up behind a paywall, it throws a mighty big wrench into the entire system.

None of this is over by any stretch. There will be many I told you so's, but the sad thing is, we as gamers and you as modders will get soundly fucked, not in the fun way, and people will cheer gaben and bethesda for it.

Zor2k13 · April 25, 2015

If fore just pulled the plug right now, valve would find someone else to replace his mod but if he sticks around and makes life miserable for the greedy sellouts it will drag this on longer and get more attention.

*Loogie* · April 25, 2015

It's pretty retarded. While I realize that this isn't affecting Fallout, here's some issues:

1: Free mods being stolen and uploaded for money by people who didn't make them. This is already happening.

2: Someone who makes a large mod and then sells it, and in the process is essentially selling the work of others. Tryout wouldn't be possible with Sexout, NVSE, and the plugin I'm making now requires TTW. Plus not to mention all the help and resources I've gotten from others. If someone made something similar and tried to sell it, what are the ramifications? Who gets what money in what percentage?

dechurch · April 25, 2015

Does that hold any actual legal weight, though? Even if it does, Valve and Bethesda are big companies that must absolutely have extremely talented and ruthless teams of lawyers behind them.

Well, that's what they're counting on, right? Valve has said flat out that they're not taking anything down unless legally compelled to do so. How much money do you suppose Fore has to fight a legal battle with a company like valve?

It has a ton of weight in theory, zero in practice.

Vortec · April 25, 2015

I was wondering if any mod authors would like to upload thier mods with the dependency that Bethseda fix Skyrim? You know fix there bugs then the mod would work...maybe. Or maybe that the dependency be that Skyrim be 64bit instead of 32 bits or requires a seperate skeleton to make an armour work. Seriously i was at the Steam store giggling away at some of the pranks mods on sale there

Erundil · April 25, 2015

The interesting part here is SKSE. Their license states that anyone selling assets and scripts made by them is prohibited. Neither Valve or Bethesda can't really claim their work, so technically all paid mods using SKSE resources could be considered illegal.

What you wrote there is not exactly "true" because SKSE already altered the Skyrim.exe file ... and this fact is not exactly " legal " too.

Altered Skyrim.exe? Where did you dig that bullshit out? SKSE does NOT modify any Skyrim exe files. The only files SKSE modifies are scripts (pex, psc files) and it's 100% legal to do so. SKSE is completely legal, and please don't speak if you have no idea what you're talking about.

Erundil, according to behippo (one of the guys who makes SKSE) you're actually not 100% right either. http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1516811-discussion-for-workshop-paid-mods-thread-3/page-3?do=findComment&comment=23943101

I have read the entire post very closely and I found nothing that would prove me wrong. Could you please specify, what exactly makes me "not 100% right"?

*rylasasin* · April 25, 2015

Charismoon (the three matera races creator) can be added to the list of modders who's come out against this.

Solidarity, sister!

Dingaling22 · April 25, 2015

Well chesko pulled out after a time, the question is, how is this going to affect us here? Or the mods we already have installed, like wet and cold/frostfall ect ect? While I think mod authors are entitled to ask for and recieve donations for their effort, having valve and bethesda in on this makes it questionable at best and downright dirty at worst.

Im certainly willing to donate to good mod authors, but I don't want valve and bethesda's grubby little hands on that money, frankly they don't deserve it. And blocking content we have already had access to behind a paywall is inexecusable, it would be less so for new games with currently little to no modding community at the time, but not for an established community that has been going for years.

Zor2k13 · April 25, 2015

This is just the beginning of the end, now all the other mega game companies that go through steam will do this shit too. The gaming industry needs to just collapse anyway, someone above mentioned talented lawyers... when the gaming industry has more talent in the legal department than they do anywhere else then it is time to crash.

Anyone holding stocks in gaming companies should just sell now and get out, even if you only break even just get rid of their stocks and pass the word around to stop buying their stocks. Teach them a lesson where it really matters right now, in the stock market.

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