A little warning to mod creators of non adult mods....

[shunter]

Not trying to be an alarmist or dramaqueen, but what are the odds of Beth finding a way to hardcode/encrypt ESP/ESM and other files in a way that only mods installed through the Workshop work?

[rylasasin]

Chesko's experiment in a nutshell:

 

 

 

[Zor2k13]

They already encrypt preload files so games distributed through steam can't be cracked before release date.

 

 

EDIT

 

I FUCKING HATE bronies!

[RohiseStraud]

 

Get a patreon and ask for donations. If people really want to play your mods that bad, they'll give you money so they can.

I'm actually legitimately curious, and this is to everyone on this site: If Sexout or SexLab or whatever had a donate button or a Patreon link or whatever beside it, how many people here would actually use it?

 

 

I would use it, if I had a stable job.

 

On a semi-related topic, I, until an insurance company decided to stop covering my client, supported a couple of people who made shitty FLASH games.

 

For no reason other than I ENJOYED the work they did.

 

The same would be said for some of the people here, I only say "some" because I have only used a few mods.

[halieslade]

Just gotta have this "More Immersive Sleeping Giant Inn" for the incredible price of only $79.99 and "Gaben's Deuce" for only $99.99 I just can't think of anything more I could ever want to spend money I don't have on. I do believe these are the "Protest" mods you speak of or at least close enough. Most of the shit in "mods under review" are just that "Shit".

now I guess all we have to wait for are the Steam DDoS's. 

 

"Gaben" would be Gabe Newell, co-founder of Valve.  And "deuce" is American slang for shit.  So yeh, that's a protest mod alright.

[Ceit]

This trailer describes perfectly what has just happened to free mods...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yma-g4gTwlE

[skyfrost077]

Not trying to be an alarmist or dramaqueen, but what are the odds of Beth finding a way to hardcode/encrypt ESP/ESM and other files in a way that only mods installed through the Workshop work?

My hope is that when this happens the Ol' School modders find us a way to work around it. In WWII the German's built what was considered to be an unbreakable code machine. When Turing saw it he thought it was one of the most beautiful and elegant machines ever created. Then he broke it. In my opinion, many of the best modders share this view. They mod not because they have to have a naked Inquisitor in the new Dargon Age, they just want to see if they can.  Thanks to sites like LL the modding community is stronger than ever, and while this may be a temporary setback, the true modders will only see another code to crack and modding will survive.

[Hayleyrose2323]

"I fink it will be goods if the modders gots all dem munnies instead of valve n stuffs, den its ok. "

 

I mean, sure it would be better than whats happening now, but at the same time...FUCK THAT.  Been seeing comments like that all over youtube, so annoying, even here for god sakes. The real problem isnt how much money people are getting, its the fact we are even talking about money when it comes to mods, other than donations of course. Bleeeeeeh... >.>

 

EDIT: Hoooooly shit, what if they do this to skyblivion....aw no...

[rylasasin]

"I fink it will be goods if the modders gots all dem munnies instead of valve n stuffs, den its ok. "

 

I mean, sure it would be better than whats happening now, but at the same time...FUCK THAT.  Been seeing comments like that all over youtube, so annoying, even here for god sakes. The real problem isnt how much money people are getting, its the fact we are even talking about money when it comes to mods, other than donations of course. Bleeeeeeh... >.>

 

EDIT: Hoooooly shit, what if they do this to skyblivion....aw no...

 

 

Exactly. 

 

If you feel like you are such a wonderful little snowflake that you have to "get something" out of modding, then you really shouldn't be modding at all.

 

Honestly, selling mods or getting money out of them is like if fanfiction.net offered the option for writers to charge money for viewing them.

[DoctaSax]

I also take issue with people harping on about modders deserving compensation. When did this happen? Only a couple of years ago you'd have been run out of town, tarred and feathered, for even thinking about accepting donations, let alone expecting payment. Not done. Now it's the players who are acting entitled? For going "wtf, mods have been free since forever"?

This isn't about modders v players, no matter how it's framed. Imo, modders maybe deserve reliable playtesters, precise bug reports, and fewer people who fuck up their own install. But no, what really 'breathes new life' into modding is the idea that our work is to be validated by chump change, extra hassle, and signing away any say over your work. Not to mention losing the respect of your peers. You got bills? I got bills too, so what.

[Kamen Rider Kuuga]

Because it's the way the world works these days; people assume whatever they make has inherent value to the world, and thus they deserve money for it.

[Suludi]

 

 

Considering that authors get paid a 25% only and that it's actually steam credits rather than actual money, probably not a fucking penny. I just don't get it, one thing is trying to make money, but being a complete dumbwit in purpose seeing how much of an obvious disaster this whole deal is? How does that make any sense? Not only you get way less than half the price, but it's not even real money! At this point, I'm way more frustrated at how fucking idiotic this move is, anyone with a miserable bit of talent could make way more in REAL money by using a donate button, sparing them all the vitrol as a bonus.

 

 

I think you're wrong on the 25 % not being real money. From what I've read, it is. Only the disappointed customer's refund will be Steam credits which means "sorry for selling you crap, how about we give you some other crap and still keep your money".

 

Of course, this (read it on Reddit):

 

 

[–]Mich-666 3 Punkte

3 hours ago

 

And what's more - those 400$ needed for 25% revenue is resetted every month. Meaning that you won't get any money at all if you don't sell well continuously. Rather annoying Steam approach I would say.

 

makes the entire thing into even more a farce than it already was.

 

[Kamen Rider Kuuga]

Also, and this is the most insane thing, I have seen people on the Skyrim forum over on Steam equating modders being paid with being freed from slavery. As if we, the players, were forcing the modders to work in the CK fields.

[azoth1267]

honestly speaking... i dont really care if mod authors want money for their mods. if they put up a tip jar or something like that, that is on them, but what valve is doing is just abhorrently greedy.

 

asking for compensation for mods is one thing, forcing it is another.

[...0...]

Millions don't even aware of this on steam they see a $ 0.45 and pay with there credit card or whatever. This is todays generation.

 

Why do you think we have DLC-CASHSHOPS-EARLY ACCES -5 HOURS FULL PRICED realesed games.

 

Majority is stupid and the 1 % Laughing out loud how stupid consumers are sitting on sunny beach on the bahama's spending your money while you getting less and less because more and more behind PAYWALLS.

 

Future will be worse you can only play short sessions pay per min wanne play more you pay more if not willing to pay more they block you because they can everything on clouds unreachble for us we only have button thats say click here for your payment.

 

Half game released full price want other half pay again full price want bug free pay more ext.

 

This will not end untill people relalise NO MORE.

 

ANARCHY but when i wonder?

[Kofina]

Not trying to be an alarmist or dramaqueen, but what are the odds of Beth finding a way to hardcode/encrypt ESP/ESM and other files in a way that only mods installed through the Workshop work?

%(^*$&%8!!! SHUSH! GAWD!

 

 

*sobs*

[TheOzoneHole]

 

 

 

The SkyUI thing is bothering me far more than it should, but I feel like I've been betrayed at some sort of personal level.

 

And if you look, who all is listed a a creator and contributor to SkyUI....GOPHER! I wonder how much HE is going to make off of them going behind the pay wall? Someone should really ask him that.

 

 

Considering that authors get paid a 25% only and that it's actually steam credits rather than actual money, probably not a fucking penny. I just don't get it, one thing is trying to make money, but being a complete dumbwit in purpose seeing how much of an obvious disaster this whole deal is? How does that make any sense? Not only you get way less than half the price, but it's not even real money! At this point, I'm way more frustrated at how fucking idiotic this move is, anyone with a miserable bit of talent could make way more in REAL money by using a donate button, sparing them all the vitrol as a bonus.

 

 

 

 

What I've heard recently, though it is from IGN so take or leave for truth as needed, is that the actually percent that the modders are getting is closer to 16%. Valve takes their 30% cut, then Beth, in their oh so generous manner gives 25% of the remaining amount to the modder.  And it is Beth, that set that percentage not Valve.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

it's not even real money!

 

See this is what I don't get. How do people not even see that for what it is? The only people who win here are Valve and Bethesda, all while saying how modders get rewarded for their mods. And dipshits swallow that line without a moments thought.

 

Like back in the day when people used to get paid in company scrip which was only redeemable at the company store. Pretty sure that practice is illegal, now.

 

Where is the agreement posted? I need to read that for myself.

 

 

I find it both funny and sad to see people acting like they're on a heavenly high moral pedestal when defending this, talking about modders being rewarded and whatnot, and how those of us who complain are "entitled" it shows how not only they're cringeworthy as hell in pointlessly defending this, they also have no flipping clue of how this works. Let's see how awful this system is in a few simple points:

 

-They get paid only a 25% of the price of the item and not even in real money, but a credit exclusive to the service where it's sold.

 

-Valve literally told Chesko that free mods that were available for download were "fair game" to use as assets (Chesko actually pulled off his mods from sale as a personal gesture, not because Valve had to make him).

 

-This isn't official DLC, and modders are not official employees, so nobody has any legal obligation in here to offer you support over any possibly game breaking crap you buy, or incompatibilities (imagine Dawnguard being incompatible with Dragonborn, that would be a hilarious disaster).

 

-24 horus refund is ridiculous, many of the worst issues that are common in Bethesda games are caused long term, such as savegame corruption and that odd ancient bug in Oblivion that caused everything to go incredibly slow.

 

I could go on, but it's late, I'm sleepy and far too upset over this bullshit than I should.

 

 

You've seen the addition Fore has made in bold and a different color to the license for FNIS?

 

 

Does that hold any actual legal weight, though? Even if it does, Valve and Bethesda are big companies that must absolutely have extremely talented and ruthless teams of lawyers behind them.

 

 

 

 

 

It might hold more weight if he puts his work under a Creative Commons non-commercial license and takes out copyright on his code. Under U.S. law then Valve would have to prove their claim against him rather than the other way around.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The interesting part here is SKSE. Their license states that anyone selling assets and scripts made by them is prohibited. Neither Valve or Bethesda can't really claim their work, so technically all paid mods using SKSE resources could be considered illegal.

 

What you wrote there is not exactly "true" because SKSE already altered the Skyrim.exe file ... and this fact is not exactly " legal " too.

 

Altered Skyrim.exe? Where did you dig that bullshit out? SKSE does NOT modify any Skyrim exe files. The only files SKSE modifies are scripts (pex, psc files) and it's 100% legal to do so. SKSE is completely legal, and please don't speak if you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

Erundil, according to behippo (one of the guys who makes SKSE) you're actually not 100% right either.  http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1516811-discussion-for-workshop-paid-mods-thread-3/page-3?do=findComment&comment=23943101

 

 

I have read the entire post very closely and I found nothing that would prove me wrong. Could you please specify, what exactly makes me "not 100% right"?

 

 

 

"Ian and I also work for software firms with connections to the gaming industry (his much more directly than mine). We simply can't take any money for the Script Extenders, even if we wanted to. Which we don't."

&

"The Script Extenders themselves are on a fairly wobbly legal footing given what we have to do to make things work. Bethesda has always "looked the other way" as far as that is concerned. Trying to prevent paid mods from happening would be more likely to get the Script Extenders banned than  successfully preventing paid mods."

 

 

Added spoiler tags to control the wall of text, sorry for not doing that.

[Double D]

I also take issue with people harping on about modders deserving compensation. When did this happen? Only a couple of years ago you'd have been run out of town, tarred and feathered, for even thinking about accepting donations, let alone expecting payment. Not done. Now it's the players who are acting entitled? For going "wtf, mods have been free since forever"?

 

This isn't about modders v players, no matter how it's framed. Imo, modders maybe deserve reliable playtesters, precise bug reports, and fewer people who fuck up their own install. But no, what really 'breathes new life' into modding is the idea that our work is to be validated by chump change, extra hassle, and signing away any say over your work. Not to mention losing the respect of your peers. You got bills? I got bills too, so what.

 

I only mentioned it as I feel that if people are fine paying for it, who am I to argue? It's a mutual exchange. If I have to pay, I'll kindly pass and move on my way. It doesn't bother me in anyway as there are still free mods. At least, ideally I think that is how it should work. However, this new marketplace could soon be the only place to go for mods for Bethesda games.

 

It will most likely happen once free mods start competing with the paid ones on the workshop. Either that or when they Bethesda writes or obtains a new engine. It's already started with SkyUI. Modders like ApolloDown are on Reddit trying to start a fork. Bethesda, Valve or any other parties that are involved will want to corner this market for themselves and will eventually use litigation to make it happen if the workshop has the profits.

 

If I were to ever tip, it would be because of my own volition. If they see me as entitled because I don't want to pay the toll, either they can leave the scene or I just don't pay and move on my way. It's unfortunate it may boil down to that, but that's just the way I feel things are going.

 

EDIT: Just poked my head into Reddit and Apollo is leaving because he feels the since his mods require SKSE, than users may believe that erroneously. I literally sick to my stomach at how this is destroying a once fantastic community. It's incredibly mortifying.

[Erundil]

 

 

 

 

 

 

The interesting part here is SKSE. Their license states that anyone selling assets and scripts made by them is prohibited. Neither Valve or Bethesda can't really claim their work, so technically all paid mods using SKSE resources could be considered illegal.

 

What you wrote there is not exactly "true" because SKSE already altered the Skyrim.exe file ... and this fact is not exactly " legal " too.

 

Altered Skyrim.exe? Where did you dig that bullshit out? SKSE does NOT modify any Skyrim exe files. The only files SKSE modifies are scripts (pex, psc files) and it's 100% legal to do so. SKSE is completely legal, and please don't speak if you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

Erundil, according to behippo (one of the guys who makes SKSE) you're actually not 100% right either.  http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1516811-discussion-for-workshop-paid-mods-thread-3/page-3?do=findComment&comment=23943101

 

I have read the entire post very closely and I found nothing that would prove me wrong. Could you please specify, what exactly makes me "not 100% right"?

 

 

"Ian and I also work for software firms with connections to the gaming industry (his much more directly than mine). We simply can't take any money for the Script Extenders, even if we wanted to. Which we don't."

&

"The Script Extenders themselves are on a fairly wobbly legal footing given what we have to do to make things work. Bethesda has always "looked the other way" as far as that is concerned. Trying to prevent paid mods from happening would be more likely to get the Script Extenders banned than  successfully preventing paid mods."

 

 

 

 

Thx.

 

[Kofina]

IMHO, those that ran to the steam workshop are the modders that weren't worth the community's time.
Those modders that sat on their hands and did nothing or stopped support of their mods until this popped up don't deserve a cent.
What stopped some of these modders from making their own site, starting a patreon with subscription gifts or placing a donation button on their site?, people would've clearly supported them that way too!

NOPE! They waited for Mr. Moneybags to come along instead of taking initiative themselves.
 

Your hobby is no longer a hobby the moment you start selling your work, and those that think that people were entitled before money came into play, boy are they in for a surprise when people's money are involved.

EDIT:

As for Chesko, he should've known that once he signed the contract that his "property" is no longer his, as a character designer my work is no longer mine and belongs to the company I work for, I can't just ASK them to take shit down because I've suddenly realized my "mistake", it's their's now and they can do whatever they want with it.

Read the fine print people...

These shennanigans are REALLY sad.

[TheOzoneHole]

Yep. As a professional programmer, I've had to be darn careful even with my involvement here. I have wanted to restart SPS-Morrowind, even without the files that I lost nearly five years ago, but at this point I can't. I could do damage to the reputation of the company I work for if it were known that one of their employees were making a mod like that (and I would get fired, no ifs ands buts or second chances).  What those guys are doing from a technical stand point goes way past SPS.  

 

While I'm not exactly an "old school" modder from original Morrowind days like some of our members, I'm going to kinda-sorta disagree with DoctaSax. I have no problem with modders getting a tip from people. Yes, even two-three years ago even that would have raised a stink, but setting up something like a patreon (or however it is spelled) or a "Donate" button to a paypal account for $1-$2 is fine with me.  I know how much quality tools cost, I've had to spring for programming and digital media software from my own pocket and it isn't cheap stuff.  I'm not necessarily talking about things like 3DSMax or Photoshop, but getting someone in to do voice work, that isn't easy. You look at some of the people doing Let's Plays and Twitch, you can tell who has a good microphone and who doesn't. Heck, even a good gaming rig to run Skyrim well costs over $1000, and that's making it yourself not paying someone else to do it.  Even if it isn't anything more than them being able to order a pizza once in a while, that's fine with me. The key is that it is done with voluntary donations, not demanded payments.

 

And if everyone got what they "deserved," the population of the world would be reduced to all humans under 6 months of age, who would promptly die from lack of care.

 

Edit: I love this, one of the people on the nexus (this was yesterday) put forth that all the big mods like SKSE, SkyUI etc. should get the GPL3 License, but I looked at the site for that and they are under a Creative Commons license. For some reason I find that funny.

[Alva]

I don't think I would ever buy a Bethesda game if it wasn't for mods and modding - if paid modding becomes a thing - it just means I'll have to give up some games which at vanilla were mediocre at best anyway.

Thankfully I never really learned to mod this game, because <reasons> - But I do feel for the more 'hardcore' modders who've dedicated a lot of free time and effort to see something like this going on.

It can and will fragment the modding communities, individual modders can quickly become much more protective and less eager to share to safeguard their assets and frameworks.

I hope this experiment fails horrible, but as DLCs now are mainstream - I'm not so optimistic because many gamers will pay for anything.

But I also think it'll be murder on the modders who sell stuff, because if things are up for sale - then suddenly more quality, more support, more service is inherently expected not only from the producers of the game - but from the modders. And seeing how stable Skyrim is .....

And if modders thought they got grief from unintelligent people now a days - just wait when those people feel entitled to service and support because they paid. The horror.

 

Dark days ahead for modding and modders and the rest of us, the content consumers.

[Ceit]

Yep. As a professional programmer, I've had to be darn careful even with my involvement here. I have wanted to restart SPS-Morrowind, even without the files that I lost nearly five years ago, but at this point I can't. I could do damage to the reputation of the company I work for if it were known that one of their employees were making a mod like that (and I would get fired, no ifs ands buts or second chances).  What those guys are doing from a technical stand point goes way past SPS.  

 

While I'm not exactly an "old school" modder from original Morrowind days like some of our members, I'm going to kinda-sorta disagree with DoctaSax. I have no problem with modders getting a tip from people. Yes, even two-three years ago even that would have raised a stink, but setting up something like a patreon (or however it is spelled) or a "Donate" button to a paypal account for $1-$2 is fine with me.  I know how much quality tools cost, I've had to spring for programming and digital media software from my own pocket and it isn't cheap stuff.  I'm not necessarily talking about things like 3DSMax or Photoshop, but getting someone in to do voice work, that isn't easy. You look at some of the people doing Let's Plays and Twitch, you can tell who has a good microphone and who doesn't. Heck, even a good gaming rig to run Skyrim well costs over $1000, and that's making it yourself not paying someone else to do it.  Even if it isn't anything more than them being able to order a pizza once in a while, that's fine with me. The key is that it is done with voluntary donations, not demanded payments.

 

And if everyone got what they "deserved," the population of the world would be reduced to all humans under 6 months of age, who would promptly die from lack of care.

 

Edit: I love this, one of the people on the nexus (this was yesterday) put forth that all the big mods like SKSE, SkyUI etc. should get the GPL3 License, but I looked at the site for that and they are under a Creative Commons license. For some reason I find that funny.

 

First of let me  tackle the first part of your post. That is that YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM! It is because of people like you that the gaming companies are going this! Once they saw that people would pay, donate, support financially they had no choice but to protect their products! They can't allow other people to mmake money off of their products. it is as simple as that. This whole donation BS is what started this whole mess in the first place.

 

In fact it started many years before that when some time during the Oblivion heyday modders started to believe that they "OWNED" their mods. WTF?!? They started to control their mods with arcane rules called "PERMISSION". What a bunch a crap that was. That was the beggining of the end. Any body with any corporate business or internation copy right law knowledge knew right away that this was total garbge.

 

Second; You don't own your mods. Once you release a mod " FOR MASS DOWNLOAD" on a gaming platform that you don't own you immediately give up all ownership rights. If you want to argue that then you will need a lot of money to pay the team of international copy right busineess lawyers to argue your case in Europe where International Copy right laws are argued. (I forget offhand which country it is done in... it is late here) But I can assure you that all the gaming companies are watching and supporting this.

 

The fact is that there are thousands of purchases already and the flood gates are just beginning to open. It is over and this generation of Skyrim modders are to blame. These children don't realize what they have just done... what they lost. The innocence of it all... the fun and happiness... it's all gone now.

 

I am reminded of the words of Wrye (from Wrye Bash fame) and why he left modding at the hight of his popularity all those years ago just because the modders from Oblivion were enforcing "PERMISSION" rules in their mods ... I can only imagine what he would say now...

 

 

[Double D]

PC gaming will never die. If anything happens, Bethesda will either crater like Sega or just sellout to the console/DLC crowd even more so than they do now. There will always be a market for a sandbox RPG that is easily modifiable on PC. If Bethesda doesn't care to make that game anymore someone else will step up to the plate to fill the void.

[Kakabishan]

You know whats ridiculous? The whole mod pack bundle steam has is actually costing MORE than the game. Use your brain and calculate the VALUE of what you are spending your money on instead of shitting cash at their direction. And if you say "OHH SUPPORT MODDURRRZZ". No, you're supporting BETHESDA annd VALVE, the modders themselves get such a small sum..