KoolHndLuke Posted March 22, 2022 Posted March 22, 2022 2 hours ago, belegost said: The fact that its so "undefined" that you can make almost anything with it and (usually) not break it. Agree. I suppose it did kind of set the mold for what sandbox games should be if they are meant for a modding audience. On it's own however, it would hardly still be around. Part of it was just the right game at the right time I think that had almost no competition with mod support. Still doesn't really or this thread wouldn't be here.
OriginalOrange Posted March 22, 2022 Posted March 22, 2022 2 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said: Agree. I suppose it did kind of set the mold for what sandbox games should be if they are meant for a modding audience. On it's own however, it would hardly still be around. Part of it was just the right game at the right time I think that had almost no competition with mod support. Still doesn't really or this thread wouldn't be here. Which begs the question, when they know that the open-world element is what draws people in, why didn't anyone ever think of making a fantasy title with no set storyline, maybe a bit like Eve Online with player led factions. That's the reason I never understood the direction of ESO. Huge world, multiplayer but absolutely no 'roleplay' elements. Not that Im saying that I'm too keen on Sexlab Online lol, but a general Elder Scrolls life sim would sell well I reckon.
DocClox Posted March 22, 2022 Posted March 22, 2022 On 3/22/2022 at 7:24 AM, belegost said: People shit on it for being dumbed down and not having any meaningful story or consequences but it's precisely this which made it so moddable. That's two separate points, as I see it. The "dumbed down" complaint is fair enough. Compare Skyrim with Oblivion. Oblivion had character classes. Oblivion had spellcrafting. Oblivion had 8 primary attributes and four derived ones. Skyrim has three attributes full stop. (I'm not counting hidden stats for either game, just to be clear). Compare Oblivion to Morrowind and the "streamlining" is even more pronounced. Thing is, both Oblivion and Morrowind had a lively and active modding community. Whatever it was that made modding so popular on Skyrim, it wasn't the over-simplification of the game mechanics. The lack of a meaningful story, I don't think is a fair criticism, however. What I think is that a generation of console kids turned up who were used to games where they had a predefined character who was inextricably linked to the plot and which basically shunted them from one plot point to the next. The TES games by contrast, you're a nobody and while there are pointers to the main story, there's nothing to force you to pursue it. And those console kids looked at the result and said "what is this shit? Who am I supposed to be? What am I supposed to be doing? This story stinks!" And it got repeated enough that eventually people started to believe it. And that loose coupling of character to plot is important to modding. You can make a mod that lets you play as an experimental synth escaped from an Institute lab, but that doesn't work nearly so well if the game insists on constantly reminding you that you're a 35 year old lady lawyer who survived the war by being frozen in a vault.
27X Posted March 22, 2022 Posted March 22, 2022 4 hours ago, DocClox said: The lack of a meaningful story, Quote 1. The genre they represent have about the same popularity and population respectively. 2. TES is a Bethesda product, FO is not a bethesda product bethesda tried to make a bethesda product. Didn't work out too well. 3. Skyrim's CK is held together with tape and glue but generally understood. FO4's CK is held together with tape and glue and does whatever the fuck it feels like. 4. The dumbest story in Skyrim is the Thieve's Guild. The dumbest story in FO4 is the main story. Considering how long FO4 took to make; not really a endorsement of any kind. 5. FO4 has the worst out of any Bethesda mesh system, and for no benefit. 6. Skyrim's level of draw calls make graphics mod inefficient but doable. FO4's level of draw calls literally cripple the game without mods, much less with. 7. Looking at achievement completion rates, a shit ton more people finished Skyrim than finished FO4, combined with FO4 having better day one sales than Skyrim but selling about half the number of copies lifetime.
johnpage Posted March 22, 2022 Posted March 22, 2022 I put ten hours into F4 before i dumped it, then i found Lovers lab and nexus mods reinstalled fallout 4 and it stayed on my system for 3500 odd hours heavily modded stories body mods sex mods guns armour you mame it i had them all, then one day i woke up and realised all fallout 4 had despite tons of mods was a trigger rush go there shoot this hop over that shoot them dive in there gun those down kill kill kill thats all it was i guess i got fed up of killing because F4 is no longer on my system and i dont see it coming back ever, i have skyrim on steam but mwahh its prob just like F4 only with a sword i find that i prefer more mundane games now like sims 4 at least i'm not killing EV-very-thing on sight when will Devs realise that most of us are not psychopaths, it would be nice to have a game where one can live an alternate reality in space earth wherever and not have to kill everything anyway point being if starfield is anything like F4 i will go nowhere near it
KoolHndLuke Posted March 23, 2022 Posted March 23, 2022 3 hours ago, johnpage said: when will Devs realise that most of us are not psychopaths, it would be nice to have a game where one can live an alternate reality in space earth wherever and not have to kill everything anyway point being if starfield is anything like F4 i will go nowhere near it I hear ya. Many a time I've stared at a dead npc on the ground, standing over them with smoking gun or blood dripping axe and wondering "Why'd this asshole have a name?".
belegost Posted March 23, 2022 Posted March 23, 2022 6 hours ago, PhysicsPunk said: We need these components: Open World Sandbox 1000+ quests Dev Tools / Open Source (Not reversed engineered hacks, although, tbf, some of them are probably better than the tools devs use at times) Company Trust / Cult Following (and Bethesda had that before their spiral plummet) A centralized modding platform, or, what I'd REALLY like is a decentralized platform that branches out to other modding platforms so that one dev can't destroy an entire modding center. Block chain modding or something would be nice. Politically benign, if that's even possible these days. And, well, I don't see it happening any time soon. In other words: a unicorn.
DocClox Posted March 23, 2022 Posted March 23, 2022 10 hours ago, 27X said: 4. The dumbest story in Skyrim is the Thieve's Guild. The dumbest story in FO4 is the main story. Considering how long FO4 took to make; not really a endorsement of any kind. Ooh. This looks like fun. Quote This is a numbered list in a quote, but it doesn't actually attribute the quote to anyone So it looks like it carries the weight of authority, without actually being authoritative. I'm going to bold the next entry so everyone will think it's the important one and skip over the other entries. That'll make it look like the whole list is relevant to the point, even though it isn't. The Fallout 4 story is indeed crap. That doesn't mean that Bethesda's style of storytelling isn't widely misunderstood. And a couple more unbolded entries on the end. Clever, huh?
OriginalOrange Posted March 23, 2022 Posted March 23, 2022 Fallout 4's Main Quest was just bizarre to be honest. You can see where the original writers were going with it, trying to bring in Blade Runner noir vibes, but you just tell they were rushed. Tbh it seems like there was an original story that had no mention of the Brotherhood and then it got butchered to assist with the rehashing of elements from previous games just for fanboyism.
27X Posted March 23, 2022 Posted March 23, 2022 3 hours ago, DocClox said: isn't widely misunderstood. not really clever, no. Critiquing the argumentation style only and acting like the point of the argument doesn't actually exist works when verifying factual information. The best part is where you posit this completely false assumption after elden ring literally wholesale demolishing your thesis to the tune of 12 million copies, nevermind the endless vapid praise New Vegas receives versus vanilla, nevermind good ol Emile literally laying out his ... "method" of storytelling for twoish hours in 2016, all of which defenestrates your premise from about the 12th floor, nevermind From having used the actual method you claim in Soulsborne to the tune of 25 million copies sold. tldr version:
DocClox Posted March 23, 2022 Posted March 23, 2022 2 hours ago, OriginalOrange said: Fallout 4's Main Quest was just bizarre to be honest. You can see where the original writers were going with it, trying to bring in Blade Runner noir vibes, but you just tell they were rushed. Tbh it seems like there was an original story that had no mention of the Brotherhood and then it got butchered to assist with the rehashing of elements from previous games just for fanboyism. Personally, I'm convinced that it originally had a very good story centered around themes of the nature of consciousness, what it means to be Human, and Invasion Of The Body Snatchers style paranoia. You can see echoes of it all over the game, but every time they set something up, it gets dropped on the floor. What I think happened is that Beth's marketing guys (and probably Zenimax's too) got involved and started saying things like "you can't do that, it's too highbrow, we're going for Lowest Common Denominator here" and "stick a baby in it - we want to appeal to the female gamer market" and "so what if the story makes no sense? It's S/F bullshit anyway! No one cares!" And by the time they got done broadening the appeal of the game and making sure that no-one needed to think too hard, whatever was good and interesting about the story had been carved out, and no one was allowed to care. It's not like they don't know how to tell a story. Even the much maligned Emil Pagliarulo cut his teeth writing the Dark Brotherhood questline for Oblivion, arguably the best story Bethesda have ever told. I think Fallout 4 is what happens when you get a bunch of marketeers with zero investment in the lore or genre, and tell them to maximize the short term profits from a game by any and all means possible.
DocClox Posted March 23, 2022 Posted March 23, 2022 12 minutes ago, 27X said: The best part Single sentence reply to out of context quote that sounds argumentative without saying anything relevant.
Popo07 Posted March 23, 2022 Posted March 23, 2022 3 hours ago, DocClox said: I think Fallout 4 is what happens when you get a bunch of marketeers with zero investment in the lore or genre, and tell them to maximize the short term profits from a game by any and all means possible. Fallout 76 begs to differ. ?
DocClox Posted March 23, 2022 Posted March 23, 2022 1 hour ago, Popo07 said: Fallout 76 begs to differ. ? Never played that one, but I'll take your word for it :)
Popo07 Posted March 23, 2022 Posted March 23, 2022 Its pretty much F4 frankensteined into an mmo with added micro transactions.
Grey Cloud Posted March 23, 2022 Posted March 23, 2022 Any optimists out there thinking Dragon Age 4?
DoctaSax Posted March 23, 2022 Posted March 23, 2022 A lot of you are too hung up on Beth and that type of game. My guess is the next big sex modding game's gonna be Sims 5. WW for Sims 4 became the most downloaded mod on this site ever a few years back, and that's with mods like SL having a huge head start as well. As long as EA sticks to repeating itself as usual, Sims 5 will be the next king of the heap.
27X Posted March 23, 2022 Posted March 23, 2022 1 hour ago, DoctaSax said: type of game. Illusion will have published at least two more sex games by the time that game's first ESG compliance pass is failed for not having enough shades of blue in the hair tab.
Idyll Posted March 23, 2022 Posted March 23, 2022 2 hours ago, 27X said: Illusion Hah... Classics. Spoiler
KoolHndLuke Posted March 24, 2022 Posted March 24, 2022 Wow... rise of the Adult Sex Game Industry. This ought to be quite the ride!
Idyll Posted March 24, 2022 Posted March 24, 2022 9 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said: Wow... rise of the Adult Sex Game Industry. This ought to be quite the ride! As long as the tickets are paid for...
thepit Posted March 24, 2022 Posted March 24, 2022 11 hours ago, DoctaSax said: A lot of you are too hung up on Beth and that type of game. My guess is the next big sex modding game's gonna be Sims 5. WW for Sims 4 became the most downloaded mod on this site ever a few years back, and that's with mods like SL having a huge head start as well. As long as EA sticks to repeating itself as usual, Sims 5 will be the next king of the heap. Maybe? Will people keep buying sims if they keep ripping out features to sell as dlc? I hope paralife lights a fire under their ass but after watching how that corporate culture spat out anthem i do not have hopes for them. I am looking forward to what happens with bannerlord. Now that has some potential. Dickplomacy was an epic mod so if bannerlord gets something similar then fuck yeah. On 3/22/2022 at 9:08 PM, PhysicsPunk said: We need these components: Open World Sandbox 1000+ quests Dev Tools / Open Source (Not reversed engineered hacks, although, tbf, some of them are probably better than the tools devs use at times) Company Trust / Cult Following (and Bethesda had that before their spiral plummet) A centralized modding platform, or, what I'd REALLY like is a decentralized platform that branches out to other modding platforms so that one dev can't destroy an entire modding center. Block chain modding or something would be nice. Politically benign, if that's even possible these days. And, well, I don't see it happening any time soon. Kenshi tried this. My understanding is that kenshi is not as easy to mod as bethesda games, hence why it does not have the support. Hell the game has an npc slave system half built in. Maybe kenshi 2 will overcome those problems? it will be in unreal, not ogre. Granted there have been some insane innovations with kenshi mods over at steam, including a giant and soon an attack on titan mod, with titans. People are shitting on bethesda, and they do deserve it to an extent, but I put the decline mostly to the private equity firm(Atlantic street capital). They went to shit when that company bought them, and you can see the quality go down right after the acquisition. My guess is that starfield was a testing platform for AI, and we will see some crazy follower improvements. I also suspect it will be very mod friendly with the microsoft acquisition. Grad students are having trouble in college now because they can't navigate windows file structures. You know, those places we troubleshoot from time to time when we royally fuck up a mod? Microsoft has been doing these weird out of character good deeds by trying to make windows dev and support training free and accessible, probably to grow the windows ecosystem. So i have this suspicion that they want to make games more mod friendly in the future, and we may even see .net ide support built into mod tools. That's my hope anyway. The scary bit is i learned more about file management troubleshooting fuck mods then i ever did in college. Literally this place gave me more useful skills than most of the courses i took. Not sure how i feel about that...
belegost Posted March 24, 2022 Posted March 24, 2022 1 hour ago, thepit said: My understanding is that kenshi is not as easy to mod Kenshi is very easy to mod. It comes already packaged with its own modding tool which is relatively easy to use, is in fact the same tool used to build the game and has built-in mod manager. Modyfying what's there is super easy. The problem with Kenshi is that it was baking in the oven for over 12 years and a lot of stuff is just hard-coded. You can't do any deep modifications or add new functionalities without essentially re-writing source code.
KoolHndLuke Posted March 24, 2022 Posted March 24, 2022 2 hours ago, thepit said: Not sure how i feel about that... Like you were robbed? Kinda how I look at it.
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