Covid19

[KoolHndLuke]

26 minutes ago, woodsman30 said:

No just sheep

That's always been true of people and why they need leaders. Usually the first loud idiot gets the job. Hail Caesar! 

[nonusnomeni]

one day

one glorious day

 

Spoiler

 

 

[FauxFurry]

21 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

It's been pretty accurate so far with people turning on each other left and right. From Joel's perspective, the world took away the thing he loved most once, and he wasn't about to let it happen again no matter the consequences. He said fuck the world. That's my take anyway.

 

Good thing this shit with Covid 19 isn't turning people into zombies, lol.

Don't be too sure about that.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-policewoman-bitten-on-the-arm-while-explaining-covid-19-lockdown-rules-11971769

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/covid-19-tn-man-in-home-quarantine-runs-out-naked-bites-old-woman-to-death/articleshow/74858826.cms

[KoolHndLuke]

18 hours ago, FauxFurry said:

Don't be too sure about that.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-policewoman-bitten-on-the-arm-while-explaining-covid-19-lockdown-rules-11971769

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/covid-19-tn-man-in-home-quarantine-runs-out-naked-bites-old-woman-to-death/articleshow/74858826.cms

AAAHHHH!!!! It's starting!!!  BTW to any young beautiful women, I have a comfy, well stocked cabin in the countryside. 

 

[GrimReaper]

Well there's evidence pointing to the fact that covid-19 also attacks the brain in 1/3 of the cases so

[winny257]

16 minutes ago, GrimReaper said:

Well there's evidence pointing to the fact that covid-19 also attacks the brain in 1/3 of the cases so

https://www.quarks.de/gesundheit/medizin/langzeitschaeden-von-covid-19-was-wir-wissen-und-was-nicht/

[KoolHndLuke]

43 minutes ago, GrimReaper said:

Well there's evidence pointing to the fact that covid-19 also attacks the brain in 1/3 of the cases so

How do you know that isn't just psychological? I think we've seen what people are capable of when they think they might die. Remember I brought up that buried in some people's genes are cannibalistic instincts? I still think that may be true even though it's a stretch. 

[Fotogen]

17 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

How do you know that isn't just psychological? I think we've seen what people are capable of when they think they might die. Remember I brought up that buried in some people's genes are cannibalistic instincts? I still think that may be true even though it's a stretch. 

Well people eat meat. People are made of meat, so ...

 

But don't. Bad. This is why in most cultures canibalism is a tabu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuru_(disease)

 

Disease can easily jump from human to human, but harder to jump from animal to human.

[Psalam]

So How much is a human life worth? (in US dollars and in the context of COVID-19)

 

As usual before I start a serious conversation I want to lay out some provisos:

1) The numbers given here are US-centric. That is because it is where I live and for what I have information. It does not mean that it is the only place where people should ask themselves questions.

2) And along that line, this is meant as thought-provoking. I do not intend to take a position in writing this, just to open up a line of discussion.

3) This is meant to be amoral, non-religious and apolitical. The moderators won't shut down this thread for anything I say in this post (I think). I can't promise the same for your replies. I hope you will be thoughtful about that as well as the topic itself.

4) I considered making this its own thread but decided that since the data  I intend to quote all relate to COVID-19 it was more appropriate here.

5) Everything here is gross estimates. You can argue about what should and should not have been included until your heart is content but it will not change the basic mathematics.

 

So, what is the value of a human life in the era of COVD-19 (in the US today)?

 

Well, the US government is about to spend over $2 trillion US dollars to stimulate the economy which has been flattened, not by the Coronavirus, but by the actions that have been recommended in order to save lives. (https://blog.turbotax.intuit.com/tax-news/what-the-coronavirus-covid-19-stimulus-bill-means-for-your-taxes-46623/)

In addition, the estimates are that the drop in value of the US stock market exceeds $11 trillion US dollars (https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/stock-market-outlook-2016-trump-win-gains-erased-coronavirus-risks-2020-3-1028991585).

 

While you can throw in a lot of other things or argue that things should be removed that total is still roughly $13 trillion US dollars.

 

Now for the divisor. At the beginning of the US portion of the pandemic the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) suggesting that doing nothing would result in the deaths of 200,000 to 1.7 million Americans. (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/13/us/coronavirus-deaths-estimate.html) For ease of use I am going to "split the difference" and suggest that there would have been an "excess" one million deaths.

 

Therefore, if you divide $13 ,000,000,000,000 by 1,000,000 you find that an American life is worth $11 million dollars. The decisions taken, to date, means that each person spared has cost $13,000,000 US dollars in rough terms.

 

If that money had not been spent there how could it have been used? The answers are unlimited. $13 trillion US dollars would go a long way in medical research. It is possible, even likely, that with that level of funding huge strides could be made in the treatment of diseases, particularly pediatric diseases like cancer, diabetes, muscular dystrophy, juvenile rheumatoid arthritis,  asthma and more. Or, more prosaically, that money could have been used to repair/improve infrastructure that needs it desperately. Those changes might save a large number of lives as well - US highway deaths last year exceeded 38,000 (https://www.nsc.org/road-safety/safety-topics/fatality-estimates). A much smaller number but one affecting a much younger population.

 

And last, a note about why I chose to use the original CDC estimates rather than going with any of their newer ones. There are two main reasons for that choice. First, in the US and at the behest of the CDC anyone who dies with COVID-19 counts as a coronavirus death. That is, if Mr. Smith was dying of lung cancer and was not expected to last the week and then was infected by COVID-19 and did not last out the week, he counts as a coronavirus death. This means that even if COVID-19 played no appreciable role in the person's death they are a coronavirus death. 

My second reason was that, now that we are well into the US portion of the pandemic, we can say for certain that deaths are mostly in the old and infirm. A very large percentage of deaths are happening among institutionalized elderly (read nursing homes). While it is unpleasant to say it is nonetheless true that these deaths are not so much caused by COVID-19 as hastened by it. Most of these people could not have expected much more in the quality or quantity of life even before the pandemic.

 

So, I hope this gives a different perspective from the rhetoric of "we have to save lives" or, equally, "we have to save the economy." How much, indeed, is each life worth?

[KoolHndLuke]

1 hour ago, Psalam said:

So, I hope this gives a different perspective from the rhetoric of "we have to save lives" or, equally, "we have to save the economy." How much, indeed, is each life worth?

Looking at the nation as a whole from the government's perspective, I can see where you came up with that estimate. Your life's value is determined constantly by circumstances and any other factors involved. Might be worth a bit of water or food (or nothing) if everything takes a turn for the worst. Thus, it is incalculable. My question is who's life is worth more if you had to choose? These are decisions being made in hospitals around the globe right now.

 

Two patients need intensive care and you only have staff and equipment to take care of one. One man is an 50-ish architect and the other is a 20-ish college student. Whom do you choose? The older one since he has an established career? Or has more money/family influence? Or the younger one that has most of his life and career ahead of him? Or has a better chance of recovery?

 

Decisions that these people wouldn't have to be making with Covid 19 if our leaders had taken some well founded predictions/warnings more seriously and thought our lives worth protecting in the first place. The relief money is in their interests to subdue the angry natives. Calling them reparations for their negligence would be more appropriate.

[woodsman30]

44 minutes ago, Psalam said:

$13 trillion US dollars would go a long way in medical research.

It may however there is no money in cures that is just a fact... who is the big three lobbyist big Pharma, oil, defense contractors..... the simple fact is money is not worth the paper it is printed on it is about control plain and simple. 

[winny257]

2 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

How do you know that isn't just psychological? I think we've seen what people are capable of when they think they might die. Remember I brought up that buried in some people's genes are cannibalistic instincts? I still think that may be true even though it's a stretch. 

Cannibalism has always existed, also even today. 

https://www.badische-zeitung.de/zum-fressen-gern-in-europa-war-es-gelaeufig-menschen-zu-essen--149953640.html

Cannibals of West New Guinea

https://www.vice.com/de/article/3byank/meine-begegnung-mit-dem-kannibalen-stamm-von-west-neuguinea-943

[FauxFurry]

1 hour ago, Psalam said:

So How much is a human life worth? (in US dollars and in the context of COVID-19)

 

As usual before I start a serious conversation I want to lay out some provisos:

1) The numbers given here are US-centric. That is because it is where I live and for what I have information. It does not mean that it is the only place where people should ask themselves questions.

2) And along that line, this is meant as thought-provoking. I do not intend to take a position in writing this, just to open up a line of discussion.

3) This is meant to be amoral, non-religious and apolitical. The moderators won't shut down this thread for anything I say in this post (I think). I can't promise the same for your replies. I hope you will be thoughtful about that as well as the topic itself.

4) I considered making this its own thread but decided that since the data  I intend to quote all relate to COVID-19 it was more appropriate here.

5) Everything here is gross estimates. You can argue about what should and should not have been included until your heart is content but it will not change the basic mathematics.

 

So, what is the value of a human life in the era of COVD-19 (in the US today)?

 

Well, the US government is about to spend over $2 trillion US dollars to stimulate the economy which has been flattened, not by the Coronavirus, but by the actions that have been recommended in order to save lives. (https://blog.turbotax.intuit.com/tax-news/what-the-coronavirus-covid-19-stimulus-bill-means-for-your-taxes-46623/)

In addition, the estimates are that the drop in value of the US stock market exceeds $11 trillion US dollars (https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/stock-market-outlook-2016-trump-win-gains-erased-coronavirus-risks-2020-3-1028991585).

 

While you can throw in a lot of other things or argue that things should be removed that total is still roughly $13 trillion US dollars.

 

Now for the divisor. At the beginning of the US portion of the pandemic the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) suggesting that doing nothing would result in the deaths of 200,000 to 1.7 million Americans. (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/13/us/coronavirus-deaths-estimate.html) For ease of use I am going to "split the difference" and suggest that there would have been an "excess" one million deaths.

 

Therefore, if you divide $13 ,000,000,000,000 by 1,000,000 you find that an American life is worth $11 million dollars. The decisions taken, to date, means that each person spared has cost $13,000,000 US dollars in rough terms.

 

If that money had not been spent there how could it have been used? The answers are unlimited. $13 trillion US dollars would go a long way in medical research. It is possible, even likely, that with that level of funding huge strides could be made in the treatment of diseases, particularly pediatric diseases like cancer, diabetes, muscular dystrophy, juvenile rheumatoid arthritis,  asthma and more. Or, more prosaically, that money could have been used to repair/improve infrastructure that needs it desperately. Those changes might save a large number of lives as well - US highway deaths last year exceeded 38,000 (https://www.nsc.org/road-safety/safety-topics/fatality-estimates). A much smaller number but one affecting a much younger population.

 

And last, a note about why I chose to use the original CDC estimates rather than going with any of their newer ones. There are two main reasons for that choice. First, in the US and at the behest of the CDC anyone who dies with COVID-19 counts as a coronavirus death. That is, if Mr. Smith was dying of lung cancer and was not expected to last the week and then was infected by COVID-19 and did not last out the week, he counts as a coronavirus death. This means that even if COVID-19 played no appreciable role in the person's death they are a coronavirus death. 

My second reason was that, now that we are well into the US portion of the pandemic, we can say for certain that deaths are mostly in the old and infirm. A very large percentage of deaths are happening among institutionalized elderly (read nursing homes). While it is unpleasant to say it is nonetheless true that these deaths are not so much caused by COVID-19 as hastened by it. Most of these people could not have expected much more in the quality or quantity of life even before the pandemic.

 

So, I hope this gives a different perspective from the rhetoric of "we have to save lives" or, equally, "we have to save the economy." How much, indeed, is each life worth?

About Tree Fiddy. ($3.50)

[GrimReaper]

2 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

How do you know that isn't just psychological? I think we've seen what people are capable of when they think they might die. Remember I brought up that buried in some people's genes are cannibalistic instincts? I still think that may be true even though it's a stretch. 

Pretty sure a virus infection causes neurological damage to the brain and not psychological damage, though the first might lead to the latter, in short: ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE NOW

[woodsman30]

4 hours ago, Alkpaz said:

How is that "flattening the curve" working out for you? 

It is social conditioning not social distancing they tell you to wear a mask... and oh you can make one out of cloth... really? because a kerchief has long been known to be a protective barrier against things measured in microns..SMH

you just can't make this shit up

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/video-shopkeeper-coronavirus-face-mask-union-jack-thong-a4371761.html

[s.kirmish]

12 hours ago, Alkpaz said:

"A year ago: “Owning guns is non-essential.”

Today: “Protesting is non-essential.”

Soon™️: “Voting is non-essential.”"

They don't need to get rid of the no-impact voting there though, because they figured out how to sham the system in running online mode long ago. North Korea votes.

[Kaldor Draigo]

 

[27X]

1 hour ago, HUNK RE2 said:

 

 

Yeah cause wearing a red hat makes a virus skip you on the infection roster. By all means ignore the rules of basic biology, and find out why the rules exist regardless of your literally made up ideology. The spanish flu killed way more people the second go round than the first.

[Senator Blutarsky]

On 3/19/2020 at 1:21 PM, Bazinga said:

People like OP generally mean the US government. They don't seem to know or care that there are other countries out there.

 

If they did they would also be aware how much we all laughed about their president in the last couple of years. And not just behind his back.

But they probably don't care about that fact either.

Oh you mean the one that blatantly ignored the protocols set up (as a start) in 2003 by President George W Bush later upgraded by president Gerorgie w bush in 2005, used and again upgraded by president Barack obama several times and used and followed by president Barack obama to contain several outbreaks including Ebola, h1n1 and Zika and other shit.  Donald j trump had the same level of foreknowledge both those presidents did but unlike president George w bush (where we had no real super contagious viral threat prior to that on any serious level when he initially acted w foresight) Donald j rump chose inaction. And look what happened. Would it have stopped it from spreading? Probably not, but America would not lead the world in coronavirus if Donald j trump wasn’t in office. President george w bush and president Barack obama both would handled this properly. Also locally Bill deblasio fucked up with his moronic attempt to keep schools open and actively covered up cases in schools. He most likely did this to keep it so the poor could continue to get lunches but this moron ignored a school cloture plan in January. A similar plan that governor Andrew Cuomo eventually put in that is common sense. So bill deblasio basically made the very people he sought to protect suffer more due to inaction. And the first thing I think of now with these two dipshits is the scenario in fable 2 where you fail to act to save that town and the same thing happens as if you actively chose to slaughter them.  

 

Idk about other mayors or governors but it seems right now governor Andrew Cuomo the only one that has New York’s back. I know de Santis fucked Florida but now he’s doing the right thing.

[Senator Blutarsky]

On 4/15/2020 at 5:56 PM, woodsman30 said:

It is social conditioning not social distancing they tell you to wear a mask... and oh you can make one out of cloth... really? because a kerchief has long been known to be a protective barrier against things measured in microns..SMH

you just can't make this shit up

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/video-shopkeeper-coronavirus-face-mask-union-jack-thong-a4371761.html

It’s well known that the cloth masks protect others from you not you from others. For the same reason that the virus stays on plastic longer than on cloth is that a plastic face shield is protecting you as opposed to a face mask. You step into an elevator ten secs after someone coughed in it In a face mask you fucked In a face shield you not. But 99% it mutherfu lers w a face shield are goin to just toss it aside and not sterilize immediately after use. 

 

Im still doin the 100 burpees a day stay at home challenge (posted on the big board of fun here). Been on that since March 23. I hope I don’t break my prior record of 100 a day for 100 days (another challenge). And we are 1/4 of  The way there.

 

 

edit- you can make a face shield out of a 2 liter soda bottle some elastic or string and a sponge

[s.kirmish]

9 hours ago, 27X said:

 

Yeah cause wearing a red hat makes a virus skip you on the infection roster. By all means ignore the rules of basic biology, and find out why the rules exist regardless of your literally made up ideology. The spanish flu killed way more people the second go round than the first.

As macabre as it might seem, a lesson like this might actually be in order to set people straight. Anti-vax was ridiculous, but I thought they would at grasp their wits once a real epidemic knocks on the door. If they (or people like them) are this life-threatening convinced of their insane ideology, then harsh lessons in reality are needed to pierce through this *other* epidemic of self-delusion that has been spreading way longer.

 

There is a large wrong turn of culture that has become to think they can dream up what they want, and it becomes truth. Too sheltered in modernity.

 

If only we had a pandemic without loss of innocents though. Wouldn't it be great if there was one that just attacked your amygdala or something, multiplied your delusional thinking there (but [zero or near zero]*X=[still nothing]), so only those screwheads would kill themselves, perhaps in promise of paradise or belief in poison medicine etc. ?

[27X]

2 hours ago, s.kirmish said:

As macabre as it might seem, a lesson like this might actually be in order to set people straight. Anti-vax was ridiculous, but I thought they would at grasp their wits once a real epidemic knocks on the door. If they (or people like them) are this life-threatening convinced of their insane ideology, then harsh lessons in reality are needed to pierce through this *other* epidemic of self-delusion that has been spreading way longer.

 

There is a large wrong turn of culture that has become to think they can dream up what they want, and it becomes truth. Too sheltered in modernity.

 

If only we had a pandemic without loss of innocents though. Wouldn't it be great if there was one that just attacked your amygdala or something, multiplied your delusional thinking there (but [zero or near zero]*X=[still nothing]), so only those screwheads would kill themselves, perhaps in promise of paradise or belief in poison medicine etc. ?

 

[woodsman30]

5 hours ago, Senator Blutarsky said:

It’s well known that the cloth masks protect others from you not you from others.

That makes little sense so by this... a cloth mask has only a one way barrier?....things can go in but not out? Knowing about masks, PPE, respirators, SCBA, ect... having used them for decades I can say for certainty that you nor others are protected using a cloth mask... I also have family and friends from doctors to nurses who work in the medical field several who currently work in designated covid-19 hospitals. I asked many question and this very question " do cloth masked work at any level " I was answered a simple "no".  They ( replace with what ever name you wish ) are telling people feel good things not facts.

I always followed this guild line " Take charge of your own safety" for whatever it is worth it your neck not theirs.

[Psalam]

42 minutes ago, woodsman30 said:

That makes little sense so by this... a cloth mask has only a one way barrier?....things can go in but not out? Knowing about masks, PPE, respirators, SCBA, ect... having used them for decades I can say for certainty that you nor others are protected using a cloth mask... I also have family and friends from doctors to nurses who work in the medical field several who currently work in designated covid-19 hospitals. I asked many question and this very question " do cloth masked work at any level " I was answered a simple "no".  They ( replace with what ever name you wish ) are telling people feel good things not facts.

I always followed this guild line " Take charge of your own safety" for whatever it is worth it your neck not theirs.

While I agree with what you say in principle the CDC feels that having people wear the cloth masks will decrease the viral burden to others when the person wearing it coughs or sneezes. Frankly, while I wear a mask (mostly because I believe it is important for physicians to be seen following the CDC guidelines) I also think that the CDC has it wrong. Their original recommendation, "if you are ill wear a mask, and if you are not ill don't bother" was the correct one. As best I can tell their current advice is based on the old saw, "it couldn't hoyt (hurt)", and they can score popular/political points "by doing something."

[Bazinga]

You can't be sure that you're not carrying the virus unless you were tested though.

So if we want to relax the social distancing measures then it would probably be wise if masks were made mandatory.

But for that there has to be a big enough supply of them which still isn't the case.

Meaning I'll keep my distance for now, at least I try to.