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What is everyone's immersion breaking limit In Fallout or skyrim.


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29 minutes ago, RohZima said:

So what do you think people are talking about when they say "immersion?" Is it just an arbitrary convention to the games lore or medieval-ism generally? What word should they use? If a new version of lord of the rings came out and in a battle scene someone suddenly drove a ferrari to the battlefield and hopped out and got in a challenger 2 tank and started blasting the sorcerers what would you describe it as? Or would you not notice anything strange?

It is all a matter of consistency more than 'Immersion'. If Ferraris are part of the setting, it reveals that the story does not take place on ancient Earth but instead may be post-apocalyptic far flung future science fantasy (see the Shantae series for an example of this). It will pull the audience out of the story if the author tries to play off the presence of cars and goes back to insisting that it is set on Earth's past after all.

You can look at anachronisms in classic tales such as Shakespeare's tragedy of Julius Cesar which had 'modern' clocks in the stage play which didn't exist in ancient Greece for examples of inconsistency. 

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2 minutes ago, Alkpaz said:

Battlefield V tried to do that exact thing and people got "triggered". :P

People did nicely offer EA the suggestion to just set the thing in an alternate history timeline ala Wolfenstein or GreedFall rather than trying to sell it as historical fiction but they just ended up being called Ist-a-phobes for their trouble.

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My immersion breaks if there is too much disparity in the color palette.

A recent example was a mod called "Beasts of Tamriel". The mod looked promising at first, until I found a very green tree in the Rift, among those aspen trees. The green was very bright and cartoonish, and there was a giant pumpkin on top of it, with a very bright orange. Around it there were some green humanoids with pumpkin heads. The scene caused a disparity with the surrounding background, breaking my immersion.

I didnt remember having installed that, so I opened the console and discovered it was from this mod. However, the mod page didnt show this monster in its screenshots. Although it would look funny in a cartoon-orientated game, it wasnt the case in my playthrough, so I had to uninstall it, losing all the other monsters in the package.

 

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Becoming the archmage as a Nord with basically no magic knowledge made me laugh the first time it happened.

For RP purposes I often like to avoid the main quest too, I don't like all my characters being able to shout and get called legendary figures.

 

I've been using mods to avoid that sort of stuff now, it feels better that way.

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I usually start a game with the "lore" of my character in my mind, I usually take a custom home to live so I deactivate others custom homes from my mod organizer, I chose if he will be a vampire, a werewolf or neither, I just make decisions and use mods that could be immersive and helpfull to evolve his story. So almost every lore friendly mod is ok, I can't tolarate "modern mods" cause it really make no sens play with those ones, I have some of them but I just useit for fun, when I have nothing to do or for screenshots.

So I just chose what is more related to my character story. Maybe it's strange, but i get fun that way xD.

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On 12/20/2019 at 5:01 AM, Grey Cloud said:
On 12/19/2019 at 4:40 PM, Captain Cobra said:

Immersion is a meaningless buzzword.

No it isn't. An overly used word certainly, but not meaningless.

A more accurate way of putting it is that immersion is a relative, personal concept that has been abused to near meaningless by too many people trying to pass off their personal tastes in immersion as objective fact. It has meaning, but is rarely used in its correct context these days. People thinking they can add factual weight to their mere opinion by rebranding it as "immersion".

 

On topic I say the constant weird bugs are the most immersion breaking thing for me in those games, as I tailored my mod selection to all stuff I wanted in my play experience. The grayface/blackface bug is probably the worst in my opinion. Nothing like booting up Fallout 4, entering a dialog cutscene only to find out your character is putting on a 1920s minstrel show because the game just "forgot" to texture her face.

 

One of my more hilarious immersion breaking moments was when I didn't properly set up a sex mod in Fallout 4. I heard Dogmeat making all these weird grunts and turn around to find him cornhole-ing a man wearing a potato sack hood. Never could look at him quite the same after that. Then when I reached Diamond City for the first time I found that Piper had already got the gate open... by blowing the mayor! Puts the followup cutscene of her going off on the mayor in a whole difference perspective being she had his cum dripping down her lips the entire time....

  

On 12/30/2019 at 4:18 PM, KoolHndLuke said:

The vanilla game in either one.

Yeah when I see screenshots of how in the vanilla versions none of the adults look younger than a 35 year old smoker I find it pretty immersion breaking for me. Okay, everyone in Fallout would probably look rather weathered. But when you see that the Jarl of Solitude, who is described as an abnormally beautiful young noblewoman, looks like a middle-aged house cleaner in the vanilla game... Bethesda loves making their NPCs ugly for some reason.

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On 12/20/2019 at 8:59 PM, FauxFurry said:

It is all a matter of consistency more than 'Immersion'. If Ferraris are part of the setting, it reveals that the story does not take place on ancient Earth but instead may be post-apocalyptic far flung future science fantasy (see the Shantae series for an example of this). It will pull the audience out of the story if the author tries to play off the presence of cars and goes back to insisting that it is set on Earth's past after all.

You can look at anachronisms in classic tales such as Shakespeare's tragedy of Julius Cesar which had 'modern' clocks in the stage play which didn't exist in ancient Greece for examples of inconsistency. 

Consistent just like the worlds' governments? *Obvious sarcasm*

 

I think we all agree that Skyrim broke Skyrim's immersion. Recently saw a video about it too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYbl66iLRxk

 

Verisimilitude might be a better word for this than consistency. Problem is that the word is too long. Maybe we should just go back to calling it realism or illusion of realism.

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For me it's usually minor things I notice a pattern of. Like NPC interactions in cities and stuff, Nahzeem being a major culprit.

There's mods to mitigate this, mods that add NPCs to make the place more lived-in looking like 3D NPCs and Inconsequential NPCs which add a lot more variety and some even interact with the vanilla NPCs. Sex mods also help, it's a spooky medieval place where sex and debauchery would obviously be commonplace.

Major glitches like dragons flying backwards or carts breaking don't take me out of immersion because I dismiss that as Skyrim being weird, I've gotten used to that, it's just annoying NPCs for the most part. Like Nahzeem and the children in each city.

 

 

Also being 1shot by a mudcrab while I'm running around with the power of god and anime on my side.

Skyrim especially scales really annoyingly so unless you've modded it to shit you never really feel powerful despite saving the world at least 10 times over in your career as Dragonborn.

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2 hours ago, megamantaray said:

For me it's usually minor things I notice a pattern of. Like NPC interactions in cities and stuff, Nahzeem being a major culprit.

There's mods to mitigate this, mods that add NPCs to make the place more lived-in looking like 3D NPCs and Inconsequential NPCs which add a lot more variety and some even interact with the vanilla NPCs. Sex mods also help, it's a spooky medieval place where sex and debauchery would obviously be commonplace.

Major glitches like dragons flying backwards or carts breaking don't take me out of immersion because I dismiss that as Skyrim being weird, I've gotten used to that, it's just annoying NPCs for the most part. Like Nahzeem and the children in each city.

 

 

Also being 1shot by a mudcrab while I'm running around with the power of god and anime on my side.

Skyrim especially scales really annoyingly so unless you've modded it to shit you never really feel powerful despite saving the world at least 10 times over in your career as Dragonborn.

Nahzeem the farmer loves to lord it over everyone, and considers player a lesser being.

So he's frozen.

All guards (in whiterun) seem to have the attitude that they don't like your kind there, so they're frozen.

I forget her name (Irileth) the court-something is decent, once you get to know her, but Ysolda is the only decent person in town.

In my game, after winning the war, they abandoned you (to the wolves), after giving you the privilege of buying a house.

Who writes this stuff? "Emil Pagliarulo"?

Google says he's from Texas.

o.

Deviating from his fantasy, living in skyrim and trying on enormous amounts of bondage-gear that Ysolda ignores,

waiting for her to come home and hump you, gets old.

Outside, the world hates you unless you're their tool.

Inside the fire burns 24/7 and Ysolda's usually in a good mood, unless she isn't, 

throwing you out to the rain.

I'd think most people would love this game, most people here anyway.

Bethesda isn't at fault.

Sturges typifies all the games "do this, do that do the other" fucking slavedriver.

"Build this, build that, tell us how much you like it here"

"what's a foreigner want in Skyrim anyway?"

It's like, Emil watched a few westerns and made some games from them.

hunt stuff.

(or transform the animals into friends, freeze all the guards, make friends with the foreigners,

Learn whatever Satan wants)

That talking statue is a real bitch on wheels but at least she sounds grateful.

Here, have a sword.

Here, take this rusty hammer.

Here's some second-hand armor.

O, *thank you*, (throws it all out in some field)

war.....

war never changes

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

What mod does this? Because I want to see her on her knees deep-throating a fat cock! I tried the sex mods for FO4 a few years ago, but not since.

Pretty sure it was this one:

It basically turns all the NPCs into raging nymphos. I remember it caused my companion go completely off the deep end, giving out blowjobs to anyone she met like it was a greeting handshake. I recall eventually disabling it because every time I found a raider camp they were usually too busy fucking each other to put up a fight.

 

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5 hours ago, Darkpig said:

I think we all agree that Skyrim broke Skyrim's immersion.

 

Since you are at it, the words "huskarl" and "husband" are very related. Both are for male functions.

So calling a woman a "huskarl" is the same as calling a wife a "husband".

 

I searched for mods featuring male huskarls, but then there was the issue with the vanilla voices, so I dropped the search.

But if I could, I would only keep the dark elf as a female huskarl, since she sounds like a lesbian.

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5 hours ago, Darkpig said:

Consistent just like the worlds' governments? *Obvious sarcasm*

 

I think we all agree that Skyrim broke Skyrim's immersion. Recently saw a video about it too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYbl66iLRxk

 

Verisimilitude might be a better word for this than consistency. Problem is that the word is too long. Maybe we should just go back to calling it realism or illusion of realism.

That's not the best video to use for this particular topic.

The video maker doesn't even seem to know that all summons are drawn from a plane of Oblivion including Bound Weapons. The games do fail to communicate certain concepts past their initial usage, however, so it is on BGS writing staff more than anything else. The main characters of the games tend to be prodigious and willing to make deals with Daedra and Aedra alike so using the main characters' abilities as a point of reference for the average citizen is a major error for any critic to make.

As for magic usage in general, the characters in game refuse to remain quiet on how distrusted and feared magic and its users are so the fault for that mistake is entirely on the video maker. On Earth, any society can make use of science but that doesn't mean that a group of religious fundamentalists or 'spiritualists' are going to take advantage of it to better their societies. There is little reason why magic would be any different. 

 

Verisimilitude is aided greatly by consistency in world setting rules(and yes, Governments are fairly consistent according to the underlying rules of Human Psychology go, whether that means that they are consistently held up in gridlock as per design in nations with a healthy system of Checks and Balances or consistently abusive in those which lack said C & B)and pre-established lore so it isn't really a thing to be dismissed. Skyrim's poor character modelling is perceived as being bad due to the character appearances not being consistent with what is presented in character descriptions and dialogue, with 'burly men' only being of about average build or 'fresh faced young fair maidens' appearing wizened and weathered as well as vast plains and towering structures being dainty if not diminuitive in the actual game.

Mods which correct these error can rightly be counted as gems among GEMs (Game Enhancing Mods).

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5 hours ago, megamantaray said:

For me it's usually minor things I notice a pattern of. Like NPC interactions in cities and stuff, Nahzeem being a major culprit.

There's mods to mitigate this, mods that add NPCs to make the place more lived-in looking like 3D NPCs and Inconsequential NPCs which add a lot more variety and some even interact with the vanilla NPCs. Sex mods also help, it's a spooky medieval place where sex and debauchery would obviously be commonplace.

Major glitches like dragons flying backwards or carts breaking don't take me out of immersion because I dismiss that as Skyrim being weird, I've gotten used to that, it's just annoying NPCs for the most part. Like Nahzeem and the children in each city.

 

 

Also being 1shot by a mudcrab while I'm running around with the power of god and anime on my side.

Skyrim especially scales really annoyingly so unless you've modded it to shit you never really feel powerful despite saving the world at least 10 times over in your career as Dragonborn.

TES 4 was infinitely worse as far as level scaling goes. It is one of the reasons why I would never even consider replaying it unless I use a de-leveler mod so I can avoid having to engage in obsessive amounts of min-maxing to keep my thief character viable in the front line battles in the main campaign or many of the side quests.

The new Mad God in training should never have to run from monsters in their own plane of Oblivion but that is indeed what will happen if one is not careful with one's level-ups even after obtaining the power of Sheogorath. That itself is madness.

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15 hours ago, FauxFurry said:

That's not the best video to use for this particular topic.

The video maker doesn't even seem to know that all summons are drawn from a plane of Oblivion including Bound Weapons. The games do fail to communicate certain concepts past their initial usage, however, so it is on BGS writing staff more than anything else. The main characters of the games tend to be prodigious and willing to make deals with Daedra and Aedra alike so using the main characters' abilities as a point of reference for the average citizen is a major error for any critic to make.

As for magic usage in general, the characters in game refuse to remain quiet on how distrusted and feared magic and its users are so the fault for that mistake is entirely on the video maker. On Earth, any society can make use of science but that doesn't mean that a group of religious fundamentalists or 'spiritualists' are going to take advantage of it to better their societies. There is little reason why magic would be any different. 

 

Verisimilitude is aided greatly by consistency in world setting rules(and yes, Governments are fairly consistent according to the underlying rules of Human Psychology go, whether that means that they are consistently held up in gridlock as per design in nations with a healthy system of Checks and Balances or consistently abusive in those which lack said C & B)and pre-established lore so it isn't really a thing to be dismissed. Skyrim's poor character modelling is perceived as being bad due to the character appearances not being consistent with what is presented in character descriptions and dialogue, with 'burly men' only being of about average build or 'fresh faced young fair maidens' appearing wizened and weathered as well as vast plains and towering structures being dainty if not diminuitive in the actual game.

Mods which correct these error can rightly be counted as gems among GEMs (Game Enhancing Mods).

"That's not the best video to use for this particular topic" you say?

Well it got us talking about it.

Bound sword is a novice spell. That means any novice conjurer could conjure it. I guess there is a certain risk with weapons from dimension X ImeanOblivion but that doesn't stop people from trying. That brings me to my next point.

 

When one talks about the fear of magic they should have an explanation as to why these magic hating folk don't have a plan against said magic. That was one of the main arguments of the video. Hating magic without having a counter to said magic is kind of like building a dragon trap out of wood and don't get me started on the enchanted wood bullshit. If every other bandit shmo can cast magic then that would be a prison disaster waiting to happen. Note that I said bandit shmo not Dragonborn. Prison guards in the real world are already hard pressed trying to stop prisoners from misusing silverware never mind magic. Every risk to security should be considered and every weapon neutralized even if said weapons could be disastrous to said person's health. There are crazy pieces of shite out there who will hurt others despite the risk.

 

However if we are talking about risk we may as well talk about nuclear power. People use nuclear power despite the risk. I'm talking honest, living breathing people use this to power their entertainment and appliances despite the risk that there may be a meltdown. Would it be so far fetched for a bunch of greenhorns to start learning how to summon swords? Maybe In a land of talking cat people and giant fire breathing lizards.

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23 minutes ago, Darkpig said:

"That's not the best video to use for this particular topic" you say?

Well it got us talking about it.

Bound sword is a novice spell. That means any novice conjurer could conjure it. I guess there is a certain risk with weapons from dimension X ImeanOblivion but that doesn't stop people from trying. That brings me to my next point.

 

When one talks about the fear of magic they should have an explanation as to why these magic hating folk don't have a plan against said magic. That was one of the main arguments of the video. Hating magic without having a counter to said magic is kind of like building a dragon trap out of wood and don't get me started on the enchanted wood bullshit. If every other bandit shmo can cast magic then that would be a prison disaster waiting to happen. Note that I said bandit shmo not Dragonborn. Prison guards in the real world are already hard pressed trying to stop prisoners from misusing silverware never mind magic. Every risk to security should be considered and every weapon neutralized even if said weapons could be disastrous to said person's health. There are crazy pieces of shite out there who will hurt others despite the risk.

 

However if we are talking about risk we may as well talk about nuclear power. People use nuclear power despite the risk. I'm talking honest, living breathing people use this to power their entertainment and appliances despite the risk that there may be a meltdown. Would it be so far fetched for a bunch of greenhorns to start learning how to summon swords? Maybe In a land of talking cat people and giant fire breathing lizards.

Counter-measures exist to magic in the lore but they are insufficient in Skyrim compared to earlier installments. Gone are anti-magic cuffs or wards. Now there is really only the Vigilants of Stendarr to defend against Daedric artifacts and summons, the Dawnguard to fight vampires and apparently the College of Winterhold to suppress magic anomalies (and possibly the Psijic Order for more severe magical threats).

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55 minutes ago, FauxFurry said:

Counter-measures exist to magic in the lore but they are insufficient in Skyrim compared to earlier installments. Gone are anti-magic cuffs or wards. Now there is really only the Vigilants of Stendarr to defend against Daedric artifacts and summons, the Dawnguard to fight vampires and apparently the College of Winterhold to suppress magic anomalies (and possibly the Psijic Order for more severe magical threats).

So pretty much Skyrim is fucked. ?

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20 hours ago, FauxFurry said:

That's not the best video to use for this particular topic.

The video maker doesn't even seem to know that all summons are drawn from a plane of Oblivion including Bound Weapons. The games do fail to communicate certain concepts past their initial usage, however, so it is on BGS writing staff more than anything else. The main characters of the games tend to be prodigious and willing to make deals with Daedra and Aedra alike so using the main characters' abilities as a point of reference for the average citizen is a major error for any critic to make.

As for magic usage in general, the characters in game refuse to remain quiet on how distrusted and feared magic and its users are so the fault for that mistake is entirely on the video maker. On Earth, any society can make use of science but that doesn't mean that a group of religious fundamentalists or 'spiritualists' are going to take advantage of it to better their societies. There is little reason why magic would be any different. 

 

Verisimilitude is aided greatly by consistency in world setting rules(and yes, Governments are fairly consistent according to the underlying rules of Human Psychology go, whether that means that they are consistently held up in gridlock as per design in nations with a healthy system of Checks and Balances or consistently abusive in those which lack said C & B)and pre-established lore so it isn't really a thing to be dismissed. Skyrim's poor character modelling is perceived as being bad due to the character appearances not being consistent with what is presented in character descriptions and dialogue, with 'burly men' only being of about average build or 'fresh faced young fair maidens' appearing wizened and weathered as well as vast plains and towering structures being dainty if not diminuitive in the actual game.

Mods which correct these error can rightly be counted as gems among GEMs (Game Enhancing Mods).

 

This is entirely of purpose, based on Howard's refusal to have anything be permanent or "of a deciding nature", same for the not-racism and the general lack of doing anything that could be construed as "railroading" of any social, mechanical or thematic venues/paradigms. Another strong jank factor was the playstation, the amount of shit they had to cut to get the playstation SKU to work at all constitutes about 45% pf the game's potential worldspace. Winterhold without the college was larger than Whiterun, so was Solitude and Falkreath and one other city I've forgotten, and the playstation could handle none of it, nevermind bethesda's perpetual inability to even understand their own engine (behavior files are not supposed to in any way shape or form actually animate, they're supposed to point to animation arrays and govern how they implement and blend based on environment and AI).

 

Bethesda's storytelling has been a trainwreck since Morrowind, so that prolly doesn't help either.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Alkpaz said:

I know some people that have played that game a few thousand hours without ever modding it.. I didn't. I played vanilla straight through upon release and then dropped it for like 2yrs before I started modding it then went back and modded the living hell out of Oblivion and then back to Skyrim for a few thousand hours, then back to Oblivion. I mainly use Skyrim now for my jollies and that is all. Oblivion still holds my interest in questing, oddly, have a few thousand in that game as well. This lead me to a big enough backlog that I started playing newer games and yeah, Skyrim is damn shallow, if one takes the nostalgia glasses off, the interest only goes so far. Oblivion has gates, but for me, I manually merged multiple Oblivion realm textures so that it actually is kinda awesome as a "realm". 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

download.jpg.ff64680647bb09b3b53cb523ded3a9b3.jpg22330_screenshots_20160915014718_1.jpg.36e9260ac79d720de8e72a6063ebc5ad.jpg22330_screenshots_20160908202640_1.jpg.9769a1ba361d36ab57344dd2bc7a0602.jpg22330_screenshots_2015-09-11_00005.jpg.cd2d676b29ceae2c346f525dc6761a9e.jpg

So I don't get quite as bored with Oblivion gates as I once did. :P 

Sourcies: https://steamcommunity.com/id/alkpaz/screenshots/?appid=22330

 

Morrowind, I played to death, I used the strategy guide (book) so much that it literally fell apart. After doing that I modded a bit of it and then never played it ever again. I tried going back a few years ago and just couldn't, even with that neato overhaul *.exe thingy, it still couldn't hold me very long. 

 

I know there are people who have over 10K hours logged in Skyrim, and if they still find joy in it.. good for them. For me? My Skyrim days are just "jerky" ones. 

After watching that video you recommended earlier I almost considered buying Oblivion. Of course I didn't. After playing Skyrim for more hours than the lifespan of a weasel I realized how jarring the dialog and story in Skyrim is and while the story in Oblivion is said to be better in most cases it just isn't worth paying for another Bethesda title. I might just sink some more time into New Vegas as it was developed by Obsidian and I already paid for it anyway. As for Skyrim I might do what I can to fix the game's shitty story or download a zombie survival mod and call it good. I rarely dabble in textures. I already have enough game breaking experiences outside meshes and textures as it is.

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5 hours ago, 27X said:

 

This is entirely of purpose, based on Howard's refusal to have anything be permanent or "of a deciding nature", same for the not-racism and the general lack of doing anything that could be construed as "railroading" of any social, mechanical or thematic venues/paradigms. Another strong jank factor was the playstation, the amount of shit they had to cut to get the playstation SKU to work at all constitutes about 45% pf the game's potential worldspace. Winterhold without the college was larger than Whiterun, so was Solitude and Falkreath and one other city I've forgotten, and the playstation could handle none of it, nevermind bethesda's perpetual inability to even understand their own engine (behavior files are not supposed to in any way shape or form actually animate, they're supposed to point to animation arrays and govern how they implement and blend based on environment and AI).

 

Bethesda's storytelling has been a trainwreck since Morrowind, so that prolly doesn't help either.

 

 

Indeed.

A combination of technical limitations and ambition which far exceeds their teams' collective level of competence has greatly hampered any success at building a cohesive setting true to any sort of creative vision.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: They would benefit from having a harsh taskmaster come in to crack the whip, to ruthlessly edit out ideas or concepts that they know that they will not have the time or talent to do in a reasonable timeframe to focus on the things which play to the franchise's strengths (or perceived strengths), leaving all else to revision patches, DLC or sequels. 

 

Focusing on smaller yet more accurately modeled world spaces, fewer plots which can be better fleshed out and adjusted for player choice, a smaller number of races available to players for the sake of more distinct racial traits and cultures (possibly accomplished by just merging together the human races, something which can simply be explained by extensive interbreeding over the span of a timeskip) and having someone to do the PR work to calm players down after they learn that fluff is being cut for the sake of a better over-all product instead of throwing in as much content as possible to give the impression of depth would be things which would help the franchise out immeasurably at this point.

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Considering the amount of 'open world' games I've played over the years including MMo's, I'd have to say LOADING SCREENS take me out faster than anything.

 

Content usually won;t unless it's CC, but then that shouldn't count against the 'original vision' of the developers.

 

I will say when I started up the Witcher 3 and was entering buildings, caves, etc. with NO loading screens I felt giddy.

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Fallout 4 "vanilla" is the most unimmersive game. 210 years after the bombs and there are literally thousands of structurally sound houses and other buildings boarded up with sheets of plywood over windows. Everyone living in rusty jury-rigged shacks and all these perfect houses boarded up. Heck with rocket boosted sledge hammers and all the other tools lying around, how hard is it to pry the boards off and open up those houses. That is one aspect that I have always hated about fallout 4.

 

I know, their game engine is basically an outdated piece of shit, and the houses are just empty place holders for performance reasons.

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