Devious Devices - Contraptions

[DonQuiWho]

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

Eh... Yes.

 

Can anyone explain to me what that was all about?

 

And the handwriting thing?

 

I guess we can all just pinch ourselves until we wake up and realise the whole thing was just a crazy dream.

From past personal experience of having been misunderstood on LL, I think a lot of the problem arises from the use of machine translations by many of our very talented members, for whom English is not a first, or maybe even second, language, to translate both comments on both receipt, and reply. 

 

There have been some weird resultant comments, replies and discussions that would appear to result from the receipt of messages, seemingly received with neither the sense, nor tone, with which they left me, and which may not have properly conveyed the tone and sense intended by the person replying either. 

 

My guess is that the translators being used probably don't deal too well with some of the more complex English expressions and styles

 

@Lupine00  Leaving that aside, and going back to your very pertinent comments about gameplay to suit DDC, are the things which I asked you about possible or not?  With apologies if that's a bit blunt, but we wouldn't want any misunderstandings.... 

 

 

 

[Lupine00]

46 minutes ago, donkeywho said:

My guess is that the translators being used probably don't deal too well with some of the more complex English expressions and styles

I think maybe that DeepL Translator thing is better than regular old Google Translate.

Posts from people that used that often seem very clear and devoid of weird.

 

But on to the pertinent question ...

 

I thought I had indicated what I might do, if it makes sense to do it.

 

My idea of a framework is one for modders, that simply makes it less awkward to create complex multi-scene scenarios, but which contains no modelling of behaviors or logic of its own.

 

Kimy and Srende have created some interesting capabilities. one is sort of locked away in Pet Project, but is actually a highly generic system.

XDFF is narrowly oriented towards random slavery states, and not well oriented towards managing a slavery state-machine, and it has some small limitations in the design that end up making it a lot harder to extend in certain ways, which perhaps were not originally envisaged, but which it could do, with minor changes.

Slaverun is also built around a similar concept, to a great extent. Kenjoka was able to enormously productive with such an approach.

 

So, imagine a system that supports multiple state-machine instances - one for each involved NPC, and one to help manage the player state.

It would deal with the sort of events I used as examples earlier.

It would make it easy to start scenes, and easy for scenes to tie back into it from their own scripts.

It would handle certain tasks for you, like getting an NPC to a marker, cheating, or walking properly, before a thing can happen.

 

The actual "models" of behaviour, like "NPC X wants you to fetch him an ale", or "NPC Y will whip you if you equip a weapon" would be entirely modder coded, but would be supported by the state machine, so you could write an entry condition, and start and end actions, a bit like a dialog, but script.

Possibly could use some C++ to add an ability to do some dynamic evaluation, if needed, so you could call a function name in a string, rather than having to create a hard binding.

 

There's no real design, but I have some ideas for requirements.

 

Any furniture system, or other stuff would be overlaid by it - a bit like a convenience library for DD (if one existed) that allowed you to write code like:

 

EquipSuit("PetSuit", "Leather", "Red")

or

If IsPossibleEquipSuit("CatSuit", "Rubber", "Yellow") ...

 

would hide away the internals of DD, but not alter it.

[DonQuiWho]

2 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I think maybe that DeepL Translator thing is better than regular old Google Translate.

Posts from people that used that often seem very clear and devoid of weird.

 

But on to the pertinent question ...

 

I thought I had indicated what I might do, if it makes sense to do it.

 

My idea of a framework is one for modders, that simply makes it less awkward to create complex multi-scene scenarios, but which contains no modelling of behaviors or logic of its own.

 

Kimy and Srende have created some interesting capabilities. one is sort of locked away in Pet Project, but is actually a highly generic system.

XDFF is narrowly oriented towards random slavery states, and not well oriented towards managing a slavery state-machine, and it has some small limitations in the design that end up making it a lot harder to extend in certain ways, which perhaps were not originally envisaged, but which it could do, with minor changes.

Slaverun is also built around a similar concept, to a great extent. Kenjoka was able to enormously productive with such an approach.

 

So, imagine a system that supports multiple state-machine instances - one for each involved NPC, and one to help manage the player state.

It would deal with the sort of events I used as examples earlier.

It would make it easy to start scenes, and easy for scenes to tie back into it from their own scripts.

It would handle certain tasks for you, like getting an NPC to a marker, cheating, or walking properly, before a thing can happen.

 

The actual "models" of behaviour, like "NPC X wants you to fetch him an ale", or "NPC Y will whip you if you equip a weapon" would be entirely modder coded, but would be supported by the state machine, so you could write an entry condition, and start and end actions, a bit like a dialog, but script.

Possibly could use some C++ to add an ability to do some dynamic evaluation, if needed, so you could call a function name in a string, rather than having to create a hard binding.

 

There's no real design, but I have some ideas for requirements.

 

Any furniture system, or other stuff would be overlaid by it - a bit like a convenience library for DD (if one existed) that allowed you to write code like:

 

EquipSuit("PetSuit", "Leather", "Red")

or

If IsPossibleEquipSuit("CatSuit", "Rubber", "Yellow") ...

 

would hide away the internals of DD, but not alter it.

Thanks for the reply

 

I did laugh a little, as 'State Machine' sounds positively Soviet

 

Whatever, I think I get some of the gist of what you mean, but it still sounds a bit like the player has something done, as part of some sort of mini-event, to their PC whilst it is in the furniture, while the player watches passively from the sidelines as it 'goes by'. 

 

Can you give/talk through a more practical example of the type of end in game product, reflecting what you are talking about, please, so that it's more clear to non techies like me, if that's not quite what you mean? 

 

I'm also interested in how it would make subsequent gameplay take a really different path after the event, through varying, and as relevant as possible, consequences occurring on release

[Supertin]

Calling me a slave now? Nice. Mature.

 

All I asked is for you not to use my textures and meshes on "your" furnitures (or rather just ZAP furnitures). Which already have their own textures in the first place. Somehow it's such an evil thing to do, not letting your grabby hands have complete free reign over my assets, which I created entirely by myself from scratch by the way. 

 

Your response to my request to just use the existing Zap textures on them was met with a response that basically amounted to you telling me that you don't care and that you will continue using my assets against my will. And then telling me, if I don't like it I can just change it back myself. And you think I would respond positively to that?

 

So then you decide to throw a hissy fit and pull -everything- down, instead of just changing the texture path entry of the nifs, which is what my request boiled down to.

 

edit: I supposed it's good the post I responded to got deleted, it was about as disrespectful as it gets.

[thedarkone1234]

Just wanting to get the practical picture here, so without wanting details about any drama from the front or back stages, where does the mod currently stand (as in, which devices are in it and how goes the compatibility with DD overall) and what can we expect in the near future?

[Kimy]

6 minutes ago, thedarkone1234 said:

Just wanting to get the practical picture here, so without wanting details about any drama from the front or back stages, where does the mod currently stand (as in, which devices are in it and how goes the compatibility with DD overall) and what can we expect in the near future?

I covered that in the OP:

 

A NOTE
 
I labelled this version a tech demo, because it comes with fewer devices than I hoped for. There are currently two fully tested and working devices in the library, plus three more having minor issues. To be honest and to get the elephant out of the room: At this time, I do not expect more furniture models to be added. But I wanted to at least release the code, for it was collecting dust on my hard drive in completed state for a year now. I feel it deserved to get published, even with only a handful of devices. It might still be a useful lightweight option for DD mods not making the heaviest use of bondage furniture. I hope you enjoy it!

 

After all this drama? Don't even ask me where the mod will go. Right now I am just devastated and sad.

[DonQuiWho]

1 hour ago, Kimy said:

I covered that in the OP:

 

A NOTE
 
I labelled this version a tech demo, because it comes with fewer devices than I hoped for. There are currently two fully tested and working devices in the library, plus three more having minor issues. To be honest and to get the elephant out of the room: At this time, I do not expect more furniture models to be added. But I wanted to at least release the code, for it was collecting dust on my hard drive in completed state for a year now. I feel it deserved to get published, even with only a handful of devices. It might still be a useful lightweight option for DD mods not making the heaviest use of bondage furniture. I hope you enjoy it!

 

After all this drama? Don't even ask me where the mod will go. Right now I am just devastated and sad.

Is there anyone else out there with the modelling talent - and the time! - who can step up and help out Kimy, and the rest of the DD Team, a bit here?  She needs you, they need you, we need you ....

 

Where have all the good men gone
And where are all the gods?
Where's the street-wise Hercules
To fight the rising odds?

Isn't there a white knight upon a fiery steed?
Late at night I toss and I turn, I dream of what I need

 

I need a hero
I'm holding out for a hero 'til the end of the night .....

[DeWired]

9 hours ago, Kimy said:

I covered that in the OP:

 

A NOTE
 
I labelled this version a tech demo, because it comes with fewer devices than I hoped for. There are currently two fully tested and working devices in the library, plus three more having minor issues. To be honest and to get the elephant out of the room: At this time, I do not expect more furniture models to be added. But I wanted to at least release the code, for it was collecting dust on my hard drive in completed state for a year now. I feel it deserved to get published, even with only a handful of devices. It might still be a useful lightweight option for DD mods not making the heaviest use of bondage furniture. I hope you enjoy it!

 

After all this drama? Don't even ask me where the mod will go. Right now I am just devastated and sad.

Speaking about the code - first, is option DestroyOnRemove working right now? I don't see any code using it. Second - is it possible to add placing/removing framework for temporary furniture? Right now, I see only parts of it ("Bob the builder").

[DoctaSax]

Try to use a spoiler next time - the page had trouble loading for people.

[grayedge]

1 minute ago, DoctaSax said:

Try to use a spoiler next time - the page had trouble loading for people.

ok thank you im sorry for the trouble 

[thedarkone1234]

1 hour ago, grayedge said:

im have a ctd on the chloe quest when i get to the nazeem part i have tried looking for a fix but nothing suggested worked it happens after the first dialog in the hall of the dead first the bodys disappear and then crash aside from that also sometimes hand and forearms are invisible as well as randomly going in to third person but there just a side issue that dont matter if resolved or not  

im not sure how to add the crash log itself so im just going to post it sorry

 

bigassbugreport.txt 1.2 MB · 1 download

Sorry to make another side comment about this, but this belong in DCL's support thread, not in DDC. Chloe has nothing to do with DDC (yet?)

[grayedge]

9 minutes ago, thedarkone1234 said:

Sorry to make another side comment about this, but this belong in DCL's support thread, not in DDC. Chloe has nothing to do with DDC (yet?)

yeah i just posted there and im going to remove this post 

 

[DeWired]

About adding devices to this mod - I've done a trial mashup of DDC and "I'll take the Display Model" - basically, it depends on both and doesn't contain any original content. What's inside: craftable items, which when used, place Display Model furniture with DDC scripts. Also, items can be added with AddItemMenu, or through console (all of them is "[DDC]" prefixed. Struggle animations are same as idle. There aren't, right now, ways to remove placed furniture - it's set up with DestroyOnRemove property, but right now, it is unused in code. Mostly untested (I grabbed a few devices, placed them, did a selfbondage game, did a NPC bondage game (if you don't know, it's set up on PgUp key) - worked fine for me, at least). Totally not recommended to use in normal gameplay - it's not a release or something, just a test to consider items from Display Model for DDC interaction. Also, non-removable furniture can cause CTDs - I placed around five of them in one room, and caught it. Placed items survive save-load, so be very, very careful with your game ?

Devious Devices Display Model.esp

[t.ara]

Yesterday, i sent KIMY my last version with supertin´s whole furnitures working and available. If she likes (and if supertin likes), can she and he release that pack here.

I will honestly not add any furnitures into that edition, because of the fact, that my further work has not been possible by using existing textures of supertin. This is to me a "no go" for a "team-like" work. Anyway are those furnitures a well sorted pack of contence.

[DeWired]

I had thought about furniture interactions, and must say, that while selfbondage game works good, bondage play with NPC feels clumsy. Using specific key, for one hand, and seeing generic dialogue options for NPC (which can lead to NPC doing things ignoring device), on the other. So, I suggest an improvement - I believe, it is possible to do this, parts of it I have seen in other mods.

So, we need:

0. Some item with keyword "Bound in furniture" or something, Probably, collar. Let's call it Furniture Collar, for now. Also, it probably need keyword DeviousGag - this way, it can block most Deviously Enslaved dialogue options, even those with priority 100 (at least, I think so? will test it later).

1. Additional dialogue option for NPC "Follow me for bondage play". Non-blocking, adds to generic dialogue, condition - is wearing any devious collar. Sets SelectedNPC in library.

2. Interaction option on furniture "Bondage play with selected NPC", available only if NPC is selected, and selected NPC is in the same cell as player. Binds NPC into furniture, equips Furniture Collar.

2a. Just asking NPC (follower) to interact with furniture must do the same.

2b. May be any NPC with collar equipped can be "asked to do something" like follower?..

3. Top-level dialogue, blocking. Condition - has worn keyword "Bound in furniture", dialogue options provide bondage play choices - Help struggle, Free NPC and so on. This dialogue must replace generic dialogue options for NPC. Priority.. I think, around 80. This way, it at least overrides most "Cursed Dialogue" options from DCL. Theoretically, it must be pretty high - but I am loath to suggest maxing it from the start, as everyone maxing dialogue priority will lead to no priority at all. It's better to block other dialogues with supplementals, such as gag on NPC.

 

 

[DonQuiWho]

40 minutes ago, DeWired said:

I had thought about furniture interactions, and must say, that while selfbondage game works good, bondage play with NPC feels clumsy. Using specific key, for one hand, and seeing generic dialogue options for NPC (which can lead to NPC doing things ignoring device), on the other. So, I suggest an improvement - I believe, it is possible to do this, parts of it I have seen in other mods.

So, we need:

0. Some item with keyword "Bound in furniture" or something, Probably, collar. Let's call it Furniture Collar, for now. Also, it probably need keyword DeviousGag - this way, it can block most Deviously Enslaved dialogue options, even those with priority 100 (at least, I think so? will test it later).

1. Additional dialogue option for NPC "Follow me for bondage play". Non-blocking, adds to generic dialogue, condition - is wearing any devious collar. Sets SelectedNPC in library.

2. Interaction option on furniture "Bondage play with selected NPC", available only if NPC is selected, and selected NPC is in the same cell as player. Binds NPC into furniture, equips Furniture Collar.

2a. Just asking NPC (follower) to interact with furniture must do the same.

2b. May be any NPC with collar equipped can be "asked to do something" like follower?..

3. Top-level dialogue, blocking. Condition - has worn keyword "Bound in furniture", dialogue options provide bondage play choices - Help struggle, Free NPC and so on. This dialogue must replace generic dialogue options for NPC. Priority.. I think, around 80. This way, it at least overrides most "Cursed Dialogue" options from DCL. Theoretically, it must be pretty high - but I am loath to suggest maxing it from the start, as everyone maxing dialogue priority will lead to no priority at all. It's better to block other dialogues with supplementals, such as gag on NPC.

 

 

I don't know about the technical side of this, and I have no problems with the notion of ppl liking the 'self bondage' potential, but surely there needs to be a bit more scope for gameplay that matches the element of 'compulsory player restraint', rather just being formed round some sort of acquiescent 'please' on the part of the PC?

 

 

[Zaflis]

On 11/25/2019 at 7:05 PM, Supertin said:

Your response to my request to just use the existing Zap textures on them was met with a response that basically amounted to you telling me that you don't care and that you will continue using my assets against my will. And then telling me, if I don't like it I can just change it back myself. And you think I would respond positively to that?

So basically t.ara asked to use DD textures on to-be DDC devices, and you said no?

[DeWired]

31 minutes ago, donkeywho said:

I don't know about the technical side of this, and I have no problems with the notion of ppl liking the 'self bondage' potential, but surely there needs to be a bit more scope for gameplay that matches the element of 'compulsory player restraint', rather just being formed round some sort of acquiescent 'please' on the part of the PC?

 

 

You must understand - "compulsory player restraint" is already there. If i'm not speaking about it, it means that I hadn't thought of any problems with that part of the mod ? But, now that you mentioned it, I did thought about it... Maybe we need some function to expose escape attempts counter. To check if player was naughty. This way, some NPC can through script place PC into device, do his things, then return, check for player naughtingness, and then either unlock her, or not. Or maybe unlock, but equip some anti-naughty devices. Anyway - we need a way to access this counter, yes.

Right now, I can see this scenarios of furniture usage in "compulsory player restraint":

1. Devious/dominating followers - player home bondage. Similar to city bondage, but in player home. Requires customized EscapeDeviceMSG with option "Call for master/Mistress", that, when chozen, allows to ask Master for release (will need to test if player in device can be interacted with by NPCs). See above for naughtiness check ? Also, if player provided more NPC in his home, they can do an orgy - with PC looking on it from device.

2. same as above, but for Sleep - block wait/sleep menu in player home, makes prepared device a bed replacement. Requires testing, though...

3. Some NPC holder - PC can choose to free her, but can be cursed to take her place.

4. PC can be placed into furniture - either by p.3, or some other script/scene - and, if failed to escape in predetermined time, some event fires - like, handling PC to Simple Slavery. Or it's just used to hold PC for a running scene - because, sometimes naughty Dragonborn runs from fun scenes and doesn't see all that carefully prepared content.

5. Traps - now, pressure plates can not only enable fire-throwers and arrow-shooters, but also spawn a furniture device and place PC there. Afterwards, look above in p.4 ?Trespassing can be more dangerous, too.

 

Anyway, all of those are theoretically possible with this mod as it is, so any modder can incorporate them in his mod, no improvements required, beside already stated: working DestroyOnRemove - for temporary placed furniture, better interaction when NPC is bound - for p.3, exposed escape attempts - explained above.

 

 

 

[DonQuiWho]

29 minutes ago, DeWired said:

You must understand - "compulsory player restraint" is already there. If i'm not speaking about it, it means that I hadn't thought of any problems with that part of the mod ? But, now that you mentioned it, I did thought about it... Maybe we need some function to expose escape attempts counter. To check if player was naughty. This way, some NPC can through script place PC into device, do his things, then return, check for player naughtingness, and then either unlock her, or not. Or maybe unlock, but equip some anti-naughty devices. Anyway - we need a way to access this counter, yes.

Right now, I can see this scenarios of furniture usage in "compulsory player restraint":

1. Devious/dominating followers - player home bondage. Similar to city bondage, but in player home. Requires customized EscapeDeviceMSG with option "Call for master/Mistress", that, when chozen, allows to ask Master for release (will need to test if player in device can be interacted with by NPCs). See above for naughtiness check ? Also, if player provided more NPC in his home, they can do an orgy - with PC looking on it from device.

2. same as above, but for Sleep - block wait/sleep menu in player home, makes prepared device a bed replacement. Requires testing, though...

3. Some NPC holder - PC can choose to free her, but can be cursed to take her place.

4. PC can be placed into furniture - either by p.3, or some other script/scene - and, if failed to escape in predetermined time, some event fires - like, handling PC to Simple Slavery. Or it's just used to hold PC for a running scene - because, sometimes naughty Dragonborn runs from fun scenes and doesn't see all that carefully prepared content.

5. Traps - now, pressure plates can not only enable fire-throwers and arrow-shooters, but also spawn a furniture device and place PC there. Afterwards, look above in p.4 ?Trespassing can be more dangerous, too.

 

Anyway, all of those are theoretically possible with this mod as it is, so any modder can incorporate them in his mod, no improvements required, beside already stated: working DestroyOnRemove - for temporary placed furniture, better interaction when NPC is bound - for p.3, exposed escape attempts - explained above.

 

 

 

Only 4 and 5 sound involuntary. 

 

5 relies on spawning new stuff in the middle of nowhere, with potential for all the weirdness you can get from random AnimObjects appearing in SL from SLAL packs ,

 

And I'm guessing you missed my post of a few days ago, covering a lot of those points already?

[Supertin]

3 hours ago, Zaflis said:

So basically t.ara asked to use DD textures on to-be DDC devices, and you said no?

No. It's the other way around, t.ara used the textures without asking in the first place. Considering the way Zap8 and 9 are handled, (there is still ported oblivion assets in them, which is illegal) and that it has a policy of taking and using anything that isn't nailed down. I dont want any of that to be associated with my work...

 

So I asked him to just simply keep the textures the Zap furnitures have on them already. To which the response was essentially "don't care, will use them regardless, oh and also going to use even more of your stuff, if you don't like it change it back yourself".

I responded that's not going to fly, and thus his hissy fit of pulling stuff down entirely ensued.

 

And just as an extra note, ... Just using the texture I made -specifically- for the cross furniture and plastering it over every Zap furniture... is not good practice at all. It's not the kind of quality I want to be associated with either, considering all the Zap furniture was just crammed into the folder with my name on it. Why not a seperate folder? No idea.

Bottom line, just leave the texture they already had on them, no reason to do a hack job and put the texture of the cross on everything.

[thedarkone1234]

I have no idea what goes on backstage, but since on the front stage things appear to have cooled down, how about we let them rest without stirring the pot?

 

Whatever happens, I am sure most players will enjoy whatever comes from this mod.

[t.ara]

About copyrights of textures:

 

 

https://books.google.de/books?id=eu70XZtw0JIC&pg=PA444&lpg=PA444&dq=texturen+rechte+spiele&source=bl&ots=f9e9inXJxv&sig=ACfU3U0qvjj7WpClEETj2zTSiq3zIb5kPg&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwijwovTv4zmAhVtw8QBHYq8BXc4ChDoATACegQIChAB#v=onepage&q=texturen rechte spiele&f=false

 

I respect the author´s wish, but I also respect myself.

Do, what you like to do, I´m personally modding into skyrim-and not creating games here for any sort of profit. Of course it´s a way of pea-counting and harassment to behave in a such way-those textures were suiting well also to those assets, which I bought into the mod-anyway you can read from all the answers of tin, that my making to work on this stuff was in whole disliked. Not at least because I handle modding different.

To me it´s exactly, that I got fooled.

Take care and discuss permission contracts, if you start working into or for DD.

And what i saw above.....mixing "something" from display-model-whoohoo!!!-maybe you have more luck with that.

 

I´ll watch exactly, which direction this mod will take and if it´s later interesting to me, I´ll add some stuff. I´ll also correct errors inside of DD-if I play with them in future. Not every mod has to be shared.

 

[Supertin]

Completely irrelevant and out of context link you posted. Also very productive, cause nobody will be able to read it anyway since it's in german. Atleast it saves people wasting their time on it.

Not that you have ever spent a minute on actually making a texture from scratch, downloading 'free' textures from across the interwebz doesn't count I'm afraid...

 

My textures also weren't "well suiting" to those assets, from a visual point of view, maybe you can debate it, it's just subjective. I will disagree on that, I think it looked just bad.

But from a technical point of view as I mentioned before, they dont suit at all. If you're wasting half of the UV map just to use the portion of it with the wood texture on it, that is not good practice. In fact that's terrible practice, complete waste of performance. Imagine using a 2k or 4k texture and then only using half of it to be displayed with the rest of it just sitting there doing nothing but eat your fps. If I want to just slap my texture on wholesale on everything I would have made it into a tiled texture. That way I atleast don't waste resources on nothing, by stretching out half of the UV map out across an entire object. Yes, the texture looking more blurry than it is intended to be is another side-effect.

[Kimy]

*sits in a corner and weeps*

[worik]

10 minutes ago, Kimy said:

*sits in a corner and weeps*

?? ? ?