Pfiffy Posted March 17, 2022 Posted March 17, 2022 On 3/15/2022 at 10:20 PM, CliftonJD said: killing her isn't needed to buy the house, its just a favor quest with gold reward. if you need to kill her then talk to her husband and resurect her, something wrong with the quest itself, tons of bugs listed on that quest. if you didn't need to resurect her after speaking to her husband, i could look into fixing the bug as your slave. as a means for favoring the jarl to test tdf prostitutes, you need only to offer the jarl to have sex with your prostitutes as per the mcm option "prostitution increases disposition". also confused if the quest expects her dead, why do you need to resurect her after speaking to her husband To become thane, you have to kill her, If you only enslave her, the dialogue with her husband will not appear and you can't move on in the quest. I want her as additional Slave, so I always have to resurrect her after speaking to her husband.
CliftonJD Posted March 17, 2022 Author Posted March 17, 2022 4 hours ago, 1Max1 said: I have a question, is it normal if you reinstall the dialog option disappear, had it reinstalled 3 times and the dialog was still gone??? Don't know how dialog mods don't seem to help ya, that makes sense. if you reinstall it, you need to restart the mod from the mcm 1 hour ago, Pfiffy said: To become thane, you have to kill her, If you only enslave her, the dialogue with her husband will not appear and you can't move on in the quest. I want her as additional Slave, so I always have to resurrect her after speaking to her husband. probably can't do anything about that due to limitations on uniques. skyrim treats most uniques as the same so it knows she's still alive if you enslave her
Martok73 Posted March 18, 2022 Posted March 18, 2022 On 3/16/2022 at 7:07 PM, CliftonJD said: thanks but i saw the screenshots and mistakenly assumed it meant the solution to slave names in dialogues. no telling where the screenshots were from if you still saw the console names of the prostitute slaves uh, what screenshots? I can tell you that yes TDF, and HSH and SexLab still show the generic name type of whatever npc that is enslaved, regardless of the name shown in the PAHE or HSH MCM menus. When pimping out slave hookers via dialog in TDF the generic name is shown in the dialog and not the name shown in the PAHE/HSH MCM Menu. When the combat message is shown in the upper left corner of the screen when two slaves are training combat in HSH the generic name is also shown, ie "bandit marauder moves towards forsworn ravager", and when looking in the SexLab diary/journal page of the MCM when a slave is raped the "last victim" shows the generic name instead of the chosen name, ie "bandit marauder". as an example.
CliftonJD Posted March 18, 2022 Author Posted March 18, 2022 3 hours ago, Martok73 said: uh, what screenshots? I can tell you that yes TDF, and HSH and SexLab still show the generic name type of whatever npc that is enslaved, regardless of the name shown in the PAHE or HSH MCM menus. When pimping out slave hookers via dialog in TDF the generic name is shown in the dialog and not the name shown in the PAHE/HSH MCM Menu. When the combat message is shown in the upper left corner of the screen when two slaves are training combat in HSH the generic name is also shown, ie "bandit marauder moves towards forsworn ravager", and when looking in the SexLab diary/journal page of the MCM when a slave is raped the "last victim" shows the generic name instead of the chosen name, ie "bandit marauder". as an example. screenshots on the download page of tdf enhanced
Villianize Posted March 18, 2022 Posted March 18, 2022 Paradise Halls Naked Bandit bug: I've been using things with that setting toggled on and can confirm everything is ok on my end now so far. I also sold a slave using AYGAS and they reverted back to their original outfit so I'm significantly less worried about bandits spawning naked now. From what I've noticed the slaves who were former bandits will always carry their original outfit and sometimes they'll show but if they're given better armor they're all about wearing it (kinda like how vanilla skyrim works with followers being given armor). So just like the setting describes you have slightly less control over your slaves outfits, but imho its a much better alternative than eventually having nothing but naked bandits running around. (Which depending on your settings if you use Yamete, could change a bit of your gameplay since less armor = higher chance of a knockout if Im correct) Thanks for the help @CliftonJD Solution: Toggle on "Disable Automatic Outfit" (I put the name of the bug or at least what I searched when trying to fix it at the top in case others like myself are searching for how to fix naked bandits)
CliftonJD Posted March 19, 2022 Author Posted March 19, 2022 5 hours ago, Villianize said: (kinda like how vanilla skyrim works with followers being given armor). So just like the setting describes you have slightly less control over your slaves outfits, but imho its a much better alternative than eventually having nothing but naked bandits running around. only downside is that sometimes at cell changes or after sex/re-equip they still revert to their original outfit regardless of the armor quality given, but i'm guessing you still prefer it over the naked bandit bug that can eventually over-run skyrim's bandit list
TrollAutokill Posted March 19, 2022 Posted March 19, 2022 10 hours ago, CliftonJD said: only downside is that sometimes at cell changes or after sex/re-equip they still revert to their original outfit regardless of the armor quality given, but i'm guessing you still prefer it over the naked bandit bug that can eventually over-run skyrim's bandit list I never understood this bug since I never had it and l do enslave bandits. Though l never ever enslaved guards, I have plenty of naked guards...
CliftonJD Posted March 19, 2022 Author Posted March 19, 2022 3 hours ago, TrollAutokill said: I never understood this bug since I never had it and l do enslave bandits. Though l never ever enslaved guards, I have plenty of naked guards... your variant on the bug sounds as if 1 of your mods has mixed the bandit tables into the guard list, very strange...
TrollAutokill Posted March 19, 2022 Posted March 19, 2022 1 hour ago, CliftonJD said: your variant on the bug sounds as if 1 of your mods has mixed the bandit tables into the guard list, very strange... Especially since I enslave only bandit females and I get naked male guards. Skyrim is full of mysteries ?
CliftonJD Posted March 19, 2022 Author Posted March 19, 2022 13 minutes ago, TrollAutokill said: Especially since I enslave only bandit females and I get naked male guards. Skyrim is full of mysteries ? oh the bikini mod leveled lists patch is written with that problem as well--instead of adding bikini armor to the females, it adds it to the males and the armor is setup for women only
TrollAutokill Posted March 19, 2022 Posted March 19, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, CliftonJD said: oh the bikini mod leveled lists patch is written with that problem as well--instead of adding bikini armor to the females, it adds it to the males and the armor is setup for women only Maybe I had bikini armor mod once with my main game, it could be an explanation. But I am pretty sure I had the same problem with new games too... I once posted on LL a screenshot of a naked guard holding a basket of flowers in Whiterun. I was like, wtf dude not while you're on duty! And that was with a clean game and basic SL+PAHE mods. Edited March 19, 2022 by TrollAutokill 2
Kalysto Posted March 19, 2022 Posted March 19, 2022 (edited) I also get the male naked guard thing from time to time. But it's not as deterministic as the naked bandit bug. I think that there's another totally unrelated problem that affects guards. Once I got it when using the Rafelta's panties mod because they were added to the outfits that are shared between males/females. Another when a mod changed an NPC outfit and my save already had that NPC cached so when I went back to the NPC it was naked (Northwind's mod changes some default outfits to remove the hats). It might aswell be some SPID txt that is injecting stuff in a guard's outfit or changing the default outfit. Edited March 19, 2022 by Kalysto grammar... 1
Antiope_Apollonia Posted March 19, 2022 Posted March 19, 2022 (edited) Sorry for the necro-post. As I was working on my reply, my life got a bit crazy, then the world around me got really fucking crazy, and this just fell by the wayside. Now I've finally got a chance to catch my breath, and I'm trying to get caught up on this thread, and I can finally return to this. Especially since it just came up again in the DoM thread (at least I assume this is what you were referring to), I didn't want to leave this discussion to have concluded with an evident misunderstanding. On 1/27/2022 at 7:28 AM, CliftonJD said: your proposal starts out suggesting that we change the random variable to a concrete formula: On 1/22/2022 at 9:14 PM, Antiope_Apollonia said: Set "Angry" mood = -20 Set "Fearful" mood = +20 Set "Broken", "Terrified", and "Loyal" moods = +40 Set "In Love" and "Shocked" moods = +60 If Submission + Sex + Mood ≥ 135, then consent. then later suggests we stick with a random variable: On 1/22/2022 at 9:14 PM, Antiope_Apollonia said: I was thinking about how much random variability makes sense for sexual consent, and I think this "threshold" model probably makes a lot more sense than the sort of "scaling percent chance" model I had in mind before I started thinking through the details here. And for certain, I think an approach like this using a function—it doesn't have to be exactly my function, although I think it's a good one—would have to be a better development approach than a bunch of piecemeal criteria being stitched together. But that's not what the quoted text says. I never suggested sticking with a random variable. I said that I considered the merits of having a random element to determining consent, and that after extensive analysis, I decided that a non-random "threshold" approach would be superior to a random approach. There are several reasons for this. For one, just consider how real humans consent in the real world. For the most part, once you've reached the point where you're willing to have sex with a person once, then you'll typically be willing to have sex with them again in the future, given similar circumstances. Real people are pretty predictable when it comes to consent. Obviously, PAHE places characters in circumstances quite different from what real people will encounter, but the basic psychology should be similar. Once a slave reaches the point where she's resigned herself to having sex with her owner once, she's probably given in to accepting something about her circumstances, and it'd make sense for her to continue to consent in the future. Of course, that leaves room for situational modifiers—just not random modifiers. There can be multiple thresholds beyond which slaves will only consent if they're drunk, or only if they're scared, or only if they're not angry. Also, from a design standpoint, the current system lacks any kind of discoverability. It's incredibly opaque. I have many hundreds of hours with PAHE, and even after you've posted the mechanics, I still don't really have a working conceptual model of how consent in PAHE works. If you used a formulaic threshold system along the lines of what I've proposed, players would have a reasonable chance of understanding how it works—patient, attentive players could even discover the exact mechanics without having to be told how consent is calculated. Furthermore, randomness is, in general, something that gamers tend not to look very fondly upon. When games behave in fundamentally unpredictable ways, this tends to create negative player experiences. The current system's opacity and randomness are sources of gameplay frustration; better discoverability and predictability would eliminate that frustration. Beyond mere frustration, the randomness can also lead to unintended perverse incentives. For example, in many cases, punishing a slave for refusing sex is often better training relative to the time investment than having sex with her. When consent is random, this means that the "optimal" training strategy is arguably to exit the dialogue when slaves consent, then propose sex again to elicit a refusal that can be punished. But doing that's terrible gameplay. If consent is formulaic, then that's no longer an option; repeating the proposition will reliably achieve the same result. A threshold system would reduce the need to get the tuning exactly right while also making it easier to tune in the first place. For instance, right now, even slaves with 100 Submission, 95+ Sex, and "In Love" mood will sometimes randomly refuse consent. That shouldn't happen. This is arguably a tuning problem rather than a deeper design issue, but given the current design, it's not obvious how to re-tune the system to address the problem. It'd be much easier to tweak and tune the system if it worked off of a threshold. Finally, a more formulaic system would be easier to build upon in future development. As I understand the current system, the only thing you can really do with it is add or remove conditions to the pool. But with a formulaic threshold model, future development—including both internal PAHE development and development from other mods like DoM—would be able to apply modifiers to the conditions for consent. My knowledge of the internal workings of Skyrim mods is limited, so take the exact details here with a grain of salt, but what I imagine would be best would be if you calculate a sort of "Consent Score" for each slave using a formula similar to what I'd outlined previously—at its most basic, just "Submission Training" + "Sex Training". If the "Consent Score" ≥ 135, then the slave will consent, and otherwise, she won't. This can then be modified by other factors. PAHE would modify the Consent Score based on mood. One of the things DoM adds to the PAHE experience is a pretty robust alcohol system for slaves, so DoM would probably modify the Consent Score based on intoxication level. Etc. On 1/27/2022 at 7:28 AM, CliftonJD said: actually that makes perfect sense unless the slave has turned nympho, they would tire of it and prefer to do something else. nympho ties into arousal as always horny or only not horny for short periods. at some point i think i'll do a rewrite adding arousal into the equation for those who have sl aroused Randomness is not a good way of achieving what you're describing. Right now, even if the slave hasn't had sex in weeks, she might randomly deny consent. And even if she just had sex, she might randomly give consent. If you used a formulaic system instead, you could actually achieve the behaviour you describe by building a modifier for consent based on arousal. It bears mention, though, that "consent" in this context isn't necessarily about the slave wanting sex. That's why the "submission" score is involved. A properly submissive slave should still consent even if she would "prefer to do something else", because being submissive is, by definition, not about doing what you want—at least in a first-order sense. She consents because she knows it's what her Mistress wants, and she doesn't want to disappoint Mistress. --- I realise a lot of players probably don't really give much of a damn about slave consent one way or the other, because a lot of players basically just ignore the consent mechanic entirely and rape their slaves at will. For such players, they're not going to care about anything I've just said. But they're also not going to care if the current system changes. For the subset of players who actually do care about the consent system, though, I can really only see advantages to changing the mechanics to a non-random threshold system. And I don't have a great feel for how much work it would be to change it in the short term, but in the long term, I have to think a system like what I'm proposing would make future development easier. Personally, as a rather gentle and kind slaver who doesn't like raping her slaves, the issues with the current consent system are probably the single most glaring issue with PAHE adversely affecting my time in Skyrim. --- On 1/27/2022 at 7:28 AM, CliftonJD said: i could understand replacing zaz with dd items or replacing dd items with non-devious items, but to replace zaz with non-devious devices just makes no sense. fortunately hydra slavegirls also has its own slave faction we can tap into. zaz would just be easier to tap into multiple mods at once and without needing a special patch for each mod It's a cosmetic decision. I don't use those mods, so take this with a grain of salt, but my understanding is that people think DD items look better than Zaz items—which, I'd agree they do—but filling a cell with NPCs equipped with DDs can cause performance issues, so Non-DD items are used with ambient NPCs to keep the performance up. Edited March 20, 2022 by Antiope_Apollonia 2
DonQuiWho Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 2 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: It's a cosmetic decision. I don't use those mods, so take this with a grain of salt, but my understanding is that people think DD items look better than Zaz items—which, I'd agree they do—but filling a cell with NPCs equipped with DDs can cause performance issues, so Non-DD items are used with ambient NPCs to keep the performance up. FWIW, just in case it's passed you by, for DDs on NPCs, @Kharos mod is quite a useful tool, with some nice functionality. I think that I have now used all its iterations and never had real trouble with it, even on maxxed out play throughs
Antiope_Apollonia Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 (edited) On 1/31/2022 at 6:09 AM, CliftonJD said: pretty bandits helped some and obis helped some more, but neither were even close to what a slaver would need for non-uniques Full Random NPC Pack won't completely eliminate the naked bandit bug, but it'll reduce it to a point where most players can easily ignore it. It's definitely the best mod for this issue. I enslave bandits pretty liberally, and I always "Strip and set outfit", and since I added Full Random to my load order, I maybe encounter one naked bandit every 20 hours of gameplay or so. It adds a lot of IDs to the levelled lists. It also adds some nice flavour NPCs like random servants in the cities and travellers on the roads. The aesthetics are quite good, too. @InsanityFactor pointed me to it, and it has been a truly invaluable addition to my mod list. On 2/4/2022 at 7:29 AM, CliftonJD said: version 8 has cured the naked bandit bug, the fixes since then have gone into better clothing management of slaves without using an outfit. i haven't made the settings for it default yet as it would be more confusing for the veteran slavers who don't pop into the thread. if you don't want naked bandits, disable the automatic outfit from the mcm and don't use the outfit dialogue I'm not sure I follow you here. How is that different than just avoiding the cause of the bug? If the fix for the Naked Bandit Bug is to not change slaves' outfits, then the Naked Bandit Bug would seem not to have really been fixed, unless I'm missing something. With version 8.0.7 in my current long playthrough, I do occasionally encounter naked bandits. Maybe I've missed some change under the bonnet that makes it possible now to keep them (un)dressed how I want them without the need for an outfit? At least in the past, if I didn't set an outfit, then they would periodically revert to their default outfit, and with Full Random installed, the cure was worse than the disease—the occasional Naked Bandit Bug was frankly less of an inconvenience than the method for avoiding it. And if we truly don't need to set outfits anymore, should that dialogue option not be removed? On 2/4/2022 at 6:52 PM, CliftonJD said: we haven't figured out why some ppl have that bug nor how to replicate it for testing a solution to it. my only guess is that it comes from the fnis spells used on slaves with the hsh dialogue to pose. if my guess to this is right, the solution would be to remove those dialogues from slaves using the hsh mcm, but that is still only how to prevent it from happening. my guess is no solution to fixing it once its in your save, just like the naked bandit bug can only be prevented. imo those dialogues should never have been added to pahe slaves, at the very least it would be less problematic if that "feature" of hsh were disabled by default and choose to enable it instead of on by default and choose to disable it I'm not sure if we're talking about the same T-pose bug, but if it's the one that I occasionally encounter, which sounds like what @terrorofmorrowind was referring to, then I don't think it can be caused by HSH. If I'm understanding you correctly, the HSH hypothesis would involve issuing HSH pose commands to an enslaved version of the same base actor, right? I'm pretty sure the bandits I've seen T-posing are not BaseIDs I've ever enslaved. Aside from the fact that I don't recognise them, many are male—I almost never enslave males—and none of them have the Naked Bandit Bug. On 2/4/2022 at 8:25 PM, CliftonJD said: the above respect changes added to condescending and young and eager greetings, should complete the greetings for all voices What about FemaleDarkElf and FemaleElfHaughty? I have quite a few such slaves, and they're the most jarring when it comes to the mixed voices stuff—one slave voicing one line with FemaleDarkElf and another with FemaleEvenToned is pretty disorientating. And I guess FemaleOrc, for that matter, although I seldom come across any Orcs I want to keep. On 2/4/2022 at 8:25 PM, CliftonJD said: slaves wearing devious plugs or devious suits will now get additional sex training during sex based on which plugs are worn and whether its oral sex or anal or vaginal How is this checked? Would it be very difficult to make a patch for Darkwood Manufacturing anal plugs (Keyword: "dse_bp_KeywordArmorButtplug")? I've patched them to work with several other mods previously, but I suspect this might require messing with scripts? They're so aesthetically superior to DD plugs, and they don't fuck with animations the way DDs often do—I pretty much exclusively use them at this point. On 2/4/2022 at 8:25 PM, CliftonJD said: actor packages and factions should now prevent slaves from dancing to the bard in taverns, except when the slave is sandboxing Awesome! On 2/4/2022 at 8:25 PM, CliftonJD said: mandate nudity toggle added to periodically strip slaves at times when skyrim would apply there outfit clothing or armors What all does this strip? Will it mess with jewellery? What about circlets? Does it respect the SexLabNoStrip keyword? On 2/4/2022 at 10:09 PM, Martok73 said: Yeah it bugs the hell outta me, but since I'm not an animator nothing I can do about it. I do wish tho that someone would make animations for some of the various zaz/dd furniture available and actually use the furniture that a npc is already locked into for the animation. Have you tried @Billyy's "invisible furniture" animations? I don't really use ZAP furniture, but I believe that's exactly what they're intended for. His lesbian animations, which are the core of my animation setup, are the best Skyrim has to offer. On 2/4/2022 at 10:09 PM, Martok73 said: I may have to break down and look her up on the wiki and see what her deal is. Wiki: "When she sees you and Ralof she will shout, "It's the escaped prisoners!" You will then be forced to kill her. If you go with Hadvar instead, she is never seen again in the game." On 2/6/2022 at 1:25 AM, Martok73 said: I would like to at some point try enslaving Astrid and Gabriella I just don't know if that is even possible without cloning them ahead of time the way you have in order to get around the scripted death and crispy corpses. If you use Penitus Oculatus (better for Imperial players) or Destroy the Dark Brotherhood - Enhanced (better for Stormcloaks), then enslaving them isn't very different from enslaving any other criminal. On 2/15/2022 at 4:16 PM, CliftonJD said: ahh, sorry had no idea it wasn't working. i'll try testing it later. seems 1 those features that don't get used enough to know it had quit Now that y'all mention it, I remember trying it months ago, not getting it to do anything, thinking I should investigate further later, and then forgetting about it and never coming back to it. Was never even clear on what it's supposed to do. On 2/21/2022 at 8:14 AM, Pfiffy said: I have trained my first slave in HSH and get subzero combat stats. Has anybody else seen that before? It happens quite predictably. IIRC, it's when (Combat Training / 127) is > an odd integer and ≤ the next even integer. So between 128 and 254 Combat, you'll get the negative value. And again between 382 and 508. If (Combat Training / 127) is > an even integer and ≤ the next odd integer, then HSH will give you a positive value. It basically just rolls around between -127 and 127. For this reason, I don't really understand why @CliftonJD has capped Combat at 150 or 175 in the recent updates, as that guarantees you'll deal with this issue when moving trained slaves into HSH. It seems like it'd be much better to set the cap at a value where capped slaves can be safely HSHed without encountering the bug. Why not cap combat at 125, or even at 100 like all the other stats, and then just rebalance the benefits and training rate around that fact? Or, if you want to allow slaves to continue growing stronger longer, you could "loop" combat training, and treat it like experience points toward levels, so every time the slave gets to 100, Combat Training is reset to 0, but the slave gains a "Battle Slave Level" or whatever. On 2/25/2022 at 5:06 PM, CliftonJD said: we had a cap over 800 when you last mentioned using multiple factions for it. you never replied back on how that investigation went so the cap was reduced to 150 or 175. have several slaves at 150 combat training already, but i can reduce that to a solid 150 if others are still getting past the limits and resetting to 0 In 8.0.7, the cap is 900. I've never had any problems with it as long as you keep the slave in PAHE. The HSH bug also affects AYGAS, by the way, though. If you move a slave to AYGAS to work as a whore, you'll get the same thing. And I don't remember the exact details, but with higher combat values, you don't get your correct value back when you return the slave to PAHE from HSH/AYGAS. On 3/10/2022 at 10:09 PM, CliftonJD said: maybe this will help, left it marked as an esl, but named as an esp: .esl files always load after .esm files and before .esp files. For this reason, it's generally almost always better to use esl-flagged .esp files than true .esl files. That said, why is that particular fix a separate patch when it seems like all kinds of similar fixes are being rolled out in updates to the core mod? 14 hours ago, DonQuiWho said: FWIW, just in case it's passed you by, for DDs on NPCs, @Kharos mod is quite a useful tool, with some nice functionality. I think that I have now used all its iterations and never had real trouble with it, even on maxxed out play throughs Well, as I said, I don't use those patches myself, so I don't have experience with any problems from DD overload. But I do use the DD NPC support patch, and it is definitely a helpful addition. I haven't messed with the latest release yet—it sounds a lot more complicated, and I'm not sure I need the new features—but v0.5.1 has been a staple. I think it solves very different problems from what the decision to use non-DDs is meant to avoid, at any rate, though. --- And, with that, I'm finally caught up on a month worth of this thread. Whew. I also have a few things in my notes file for PAHE. These are based on v8.0.7, but from reading through the update notes, it doesn't look like anything should have affected them. We were speaking a while ago about how released or escaped slaves essentially become "vegetables"; how hard would it be to give them a dialogue to re-enslave them if you find them again? When a slave escapes, and you track her down, and then you have to beat her half to death while she just stands there in order to re-enslave her, it's pretty unimmersive. I have made no progress in figuring out what causes this, but once in a while—maybe 2-5% of slaves—I get a slave for whom the "I'm going to fuck you" dialogue just disappears (see screenshots below). It's not that they never had the dialogue—they start out normally, and then at some point, it breaks. Joslin, for example, made it all the way to 73 Sex Training before she broke. Nothing I've tried will bring it back. Moving them to HSH and back doesn't change anything. Resetting them doesn't change anything. Even recloning them doesn't change anything. These are just normal bandits, not uniques. It's quite rare, but when it happens, it's obviously pretty debilitating. Spoiler Slaves who are told to fight aren't respecting unarmed duels. Before starting a brawl, you need to go through and tell your slaves not to fight. For what it's worth, I'm using the "Modern Brawl Bug Fix" patch. How hard would it be to add a pair of spells, one of which would command all slaves currently following you to "Stay here, don't move!" (or "Wait around here," either should be fine), and the other of which would command all slaves currently waiting to follow you? I can imagine this would have a few useful applications, but what I mainly have in mind is as a bandaid fix to work around the tedium caused by slaves' names not appearing in dialogue. When you're trying to sell a specific "bandit" from the 8 "bandits" following you through AYGAS, for example, the process for accomplishing that is an inordinate pain in the ass. Being able to park all of your slaves out of detection range with one simple ability, and to recover them later equally easily, would greatly mitigate this inconvenience. Of course, if @TrollAutokill can be convinced to tackle the substnatial challenge of building a better alternative into DoM, that might become moot... Spoiler On 3/18/2022 at 4:09 AM, Antiope_Apollonia said: Reveal hidden contents The way AYGAS handles sales is probably its weakest point—it's an endless source of frustration. Better method of sales: I think the best solution would look something like this: "Ever dreamt of having a servant?" → "What would you offer for these slaves?" → Info pane displaying what the buyer will pay for each slave in the follower state If there's room, including a column on the info pane for the slave's "book value" for comparison would be a very nice convenience, but that might be too much clutter. Then, "Ever dreamt of having a servant?" → "We've got a deal." → HSH-style "point her out" method to actually sell, like how sales in the mines work. The other solution I can envisage would look like this: "Ever dreamt of having a servant?" → "Do any of these slaves interest you?" → Only valid sales appear in list, and the list is scrollable rather than being limited to five. (You might still want to have an info pane option here, too.) Better sale calculations: NPCs are virtually always willing to buy slaves... if you're willing to sell them cheaply enough. Different NPCs have various preferences, e.g., sexes, races, training Maybe this would just be a hidden value, but it could be nice to have this revealed through dialogue, e.g., "What kinds of slaves do you you prefer?" This dialogue could potentially also generate an info pane. Obviously, NPCs would be willing to pay more for slaves that better match their preferences. Furthermore, NPCs would be more likely to be satisfied with the purchase of slaves that better match their preferences, although there should probably be some random variability here. These preferences might be configurable in the NPCs' .json files. Better interaction with other slaveholders and their slaves: Can track down slaves you've sold. AYGAS just gives you a dead-end "I no longer have that slave"—well where did she go? MCM options to configure the rate of re-sales would be valuable. When selling a slave, it'd be cool if you could give e.g., a 10% discount in exchange for "first refusal" on any future sales, i.e., the new owner could not sell the slave without offering her to you first. Sold slaves remember you. We spoke about this idea a while back, and you seemed to like it. It seems like it'd be really hard to do with the current, unsupported AYGAS. But if we had an integrated alternative, it would be relatively straightforward to build this in. Slaves react to seeing you again based on a combination of your previous relationship and their current relationship with their new owner. Mistreated slaves who hated you will just react with exasperation. Mistreated slaves who loved or were loyal to you will beg you to buy them back. Well-treated slaves who hated you will react with disgust, maybe tell you to go away, maybe physically hide behind their new owner. Well-treated slaves who loved or were loyal to you will whisper something along the lines of, "It's always nice to see you again, Mistress." Build your reputation as a slaveholder: e.g., "Cruel" vs. "Gentle" Develops as you sell slaves based on how you treated them before sale. Affects how newly purchased slaves view you, perhaps in combination with their personalities. Able to talk to slaves owned by others. For slaves who don't have a prior relationship with you, their responses are determined by a combination of your reputation and their current owners' treatment of them. Similar to your reputation, NPCs also have a "slaveholder personality"—configurable in their DoM .json; perhaps a 0–100 stat from "cruel" to "gentle"—which combines with their level of purchase satisfaction to determine how they treat a slave. Their slaveholder personality might be unknowable before they've ever owned a slave, but you could gain insight into it by speaking to slaves they own. Perhaps two or three slaves would enable you to ascertain their exact personality. This might be harder to implement, but you could have some really touching moments when slaves are reunited with friends (especially best friends) who've been sold, either by purchasing their friend back, selling them to the same owner, or simply meeting only briefly. Bonus points if the reunion is further impacted by the slaveholder personalities of the friends' owners. Better configurability of starting conditions: Choose level separately for each city. Choose how many slaves initially populate each city. Configure the generation of new slaves. Set the rate of generation and a cap on the maximum number of slaves in the city beyond which new slaves will not be generated. Equip generated slaves using an outfit instead of a script so that it's easy for users to build a custom patch for. Needing to know how to script to edit outfits in AYGAS is a big disadvantage. Even better, it would be great to have an MCM option to set the default slave outfit that generated slaves would wear; this might be most easily done by copying the outfit of a targeted slave? AYGAS prostitution is a nice, lightweight prostitution system that I quite like, but given the existence of dedicated prostitution mods like TDF for people who care a lot about this gameplay, I don't think replicating AYGAS's prostitution system would be a priority. I don't know about alternatives for the pit fights, but I can't recall ever seeing that feature discussed in all my time with this suite of mods, so I'm guessing I wouldn't be alone in not really missing that, either. Those extra systems are nice extras, but having a better-functioning system that's fully integrated with DoM's core features and just handles slave sales and ambient slaves in cities would be an amazing feature. People could even still use AYGAS, too, if they want just those features, and with the right MCM configuration, it wouldn't necessarily conflict. Confirmed the bugged behaviour we spoke about a while ago of the slaves at the Sun Stone in a new playthrough. Just as before, they spawn under the world and cannot be recovered through recloning, teleporting, recycleactor, or anything like that. Can also confirm that it doesn't matter whether you try enslaving them before or after cleansing the Sun Stone with Bend Will for the quest. For followers, while crouching, you still get the normal interact option instead of pickpocketing; can this same mechanic be applied to PAHE slaves? Edited March 20, 2022 by Antiope_Apollonia 1
Martok73 Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 3 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: Have you tried @Billyy's "invisible furniture" animations? I don't really use ZAP furniture, but I believe that's exactly what they're intended for. His lesbian animations, which are the core of my animation setup, are the best Skyrim has to offer. I already use those animations. Still not very many animations for ZaP furniture nor DD. 3 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: If you use Penitus Oculatus (better for Imperial players) or Destroy the Dark Brotherhood - Enhanced (better for Stormcloaks), then enslaving them isn't very different from enslaving any other criminal. My next playthrough will use the Destroy the Dark Brotherhood mod. For characters I have that are in the DB there isn't a "good" way to enslave Astrid for her betrayal and RP wise it wouldn't make sense until the questline is at the end anyway when you find out what she has done. As for Gabreilla she stays an ally thru the whole quest chain so no real reason to enslave her from a RP pov. So I will most likely just enslave them in the play through with the mod to destroy them instead of killing them all.
Villianize Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 So Ive been doing alot of testing, and have had some things come up but Im not too sure if theyre related. The first thing is Im starting to suspect that OBIS is a soft incompatibility. I remember a while back i inquired around as to how to stop bandits from spawning on slaves and learned it has something to do with the glowing pearls preventing bandits turned to followers from being used during the OBIS cell scan, but I can confirm that doesnt work at all. Im not sure if OBIS uses a different script from vanilla in deciding which bandits to spawn, but I have had a naked bandit spawn with the Disable Automatic Outfits setting toggled on. Im not sure if its something exclusive to OBIS but I'll keep checking as I know in this current playthrough, Ive only enslaved one bandit with that setting off (back when I wasnt sure what it did) Lastly, Im not sure if others are having this but Im having an issue (this might be GPU exclusive but I dont think so as Ive never had this problem before) where sometimes slaves will randomly disappear. They do this weird thing where they blink a few times going from visible to invisible, then eventually stay invisible. Ive done some testing in game on what makes them become visible and it seems I either have to go into a new cell, or use the whip on them, which doesnt always work. Im wondering if perhaps 2 overlays are conflicting and making the slave turn invisible or something else.
Gukahn Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 7 minutes ago, Villianize said: Lastly, Im not sure if others are having this but Im having an issue (this might be GPU exclusive but I dont think so as Ive never had this problem before) where sometimes slaves will randomly disappear. They do this weird thing where they blink a few times going from visible to invisible, then eventually stay invisible. Ive done some testing in game on what makes them become visible and it seems I either have to go into a new cell, or use the whip on them, which doesnt always work. Im wondering if perhaps 2 overlays are conflicting and making the slave turn invisible or something else. Do you perhaps make heavy use of Apropos Wear and Tear overlays? I had this with not only slaves but every female getting abused repeatedly so i reduced wear and tear to a minimum i was comfortable with until i completely abandoned it and only use it as a requirement, chilling disabled in its mcm. Never had someone go invisible on me ever again.
Villianize Posted March 20, 2022 Posted March 20, 2022 50 minutes ago, Gukahn said: Do you perhaps make heavy use of Apropos Wear and Tear overlays? I had this with not only slaves but every female getting abused repeatedly so i reduced wear and tear to a minimum i was comfortable with until i completely abandoned it and only use it as a requirement, chilling disabled in its mcm. Never had someone go invisible on me ever again. I in fact do! thanks for the pointer. I'll be sure to see if theres any change. Im also restarting my playthrough as Im only a few levels in with OBIS uninstalled with the earlier suggestion of using the more Random NPCs rather than OBIS. I'll miss having more random fights and bandits to choose from for enslaving but its more peace-of-mind until I find a newer more optimized mod that can give more bandits than OBIS and dealing with the non stop issues that I have had with it for the past few years
CliftonJD Posted March 21, 2022 Author Posted March 21, 2022 22 hours ago, Villianize said: So Ive been doing alot of testing, and have had some things come up but Im not too sure if theyre related. The first thing is Im starting to suspect that OBIS is a soft incompatibility. I remember a while back i inquired around as to how to stop bandits from spawning on slaves and learned it has something to do with the glowing pearls preventing bandits turned to followers from being used during the OBIS cell scan, but I can confirm that doesnt work at all. agreed on the pearls, dunno if it was you or somebody else told me about the pearls, but obis users get a free pearl added to every slave during enslavement and has no effect on the obis spawns 22 hours ago, Villianize said: m not sure if OBIS uses a different script from vanilla in deciding which bandits to spawn, but I have had a naked bandit spawn with the Disable Automatic Outfits setting toggled on. Im not sure if its something exclusive to OBIS but I'll keep checking as I know in this current playthrough, Ive only enslaved one bandit with that setting off (back when I wasnt sure what it did) this is why i suggested you might be better off with a clean save with the setting on from the start. obis does the level lists backwords so even that 1 naked slave contaminates multiple others that don't look anything like it and shouldn't otherwise be connected 22 hours ago, Villianize said: Lastly, Im not sure if others are having this but Im having an issue (this might be GPU exclusive but I dont think so as Ive never had this problem before) where sometimes slaves will randomly disappear. They do this weird thing where they blink a few times going from visible to invisible, then eventually stay invisible. from what i can tell its an sse bug when you reach the render limit of the nearby npc's following, had it happen on followers as well since i moved to se. not sure if its a limitation on the skyrim engine or if it can be fixed/worked around with a better video card, only guessing we need more vid-ram
CliftonJD Posted March 21, 2022 Author Posted March 21, 2022 16 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: I said that I considered the merits of having a random element to determining consent, and that after extensive analysis, I decided that a non-random "threshold" approach would be superior to a random approach. There are several reasons for this. For one, just consider how real humans consent in the real world. For the most part, once you've reached the point where you're willing to have sex with a person once, then you'll typically be willing to have sex with them again in the future, given similar circumstances. Real people are pretty predictable when it comes to consent. Obviously, PAHE places characters in circumstances quite different from what real people will encounter, but the basic psychology should be similar. Once a slave reaches the point where she's resigned herself to having sex with her owner once, she's probably given in to accepting something about her circumstances, and it'd make sense for her to continue to consent in the future. Of course, that leaves room for situational modifiers—just not random modifiers. see i have to disagree with this statement, take married couples as example, how often you find couples that haven't had sex in years. the chance that even couples are still having sex is in fact the random multiplier that can never be accounted for in a virtual world 16 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: Once a slave reaches the point where she's resigned herself to having sex with her owner once, she's probably given in to accepting something about her circumstances, and it'd make sense for her to continue to consent in the future. Of course, that leaves room for situational modifiers—just not random modifiers. There can be multiple thresholds beyond which slaves will only consent if they're drunk, or only if they're scared, or only if they're not angry. Also, from a design standpoint, the current system lacks any kind of discoverability. It's incredibly opaque. I have many hundreds of hours with PAHE, and even after you've posted the mechanics, I still don't really have a working conceptual model of how consent in PAHE works. If you used a formulaic threshold system along the lines of what I've proposed, players would have a reasonable chance of understanding how it works—patient, attentive players could even discover the exact mechanics without having to be told how consent is calculated. Furthermore, randomness is, in general, something that gamers tend not to look very fondly upon. When games behave in fundamentally unpredictable ways, this tends to create negative player experiences. The current system's opacity and randomness are sources of gameplay frustration; better discoverability and predictability would eliminate that frustration. after consideration of our previous talks i decided to ignore the random factors of rl and rewrite the sex topics for better game-play. new prostitution mod i saw recently even takes previous clients into consideration so this too should be added in the future 17 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: Beyond mere frustration, the randomness can also lead to unintended perverse incentives. For example, in many cases, punishing a slave for refusing sex is often better training relative to the time investment than having sex with her. When consent is random, this means that the "optimal" training strategy is arguably to exit the dialogue when slaves consent, then propose sex again to elicit a refusal that can be punished. But doing that's terrible gameplay. If consent is formulaic, then that's no longer an option; repeating the proposition will reliably achieve the same result. A threshold system would reduce the need to get the tuning exactly right while also making it easier to tune in the first place. For instance, right now, even slaves with 100 Submission, 95+ Sex, and "In Love" mood will sometimes randomly refuse consent. That shouldn't happen. still the same result as listed above until we remove the randomness of rl and concentrate on better gameplay 17 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: Finally, a more formulaic system would be easier to build upon in future development. As I understand the current system, the only thing you can really do with it is add or remove conditions to the pool. But with a formulaic threshold model, future development—including both internal PAHE development and development from other mods like DoM—would be able to apply modifiers to the conditions for consent. reminds me i need to update the modder permissions so future mods don't rewrite the mod, too much of a nightmare managing who's update just broke gameplay for everybody else 5 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: With version 8.0.7 in my current long playthrough, I do occasionally encounter naked bandits. you answered the reasoning for this above: 5 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: . I enslave bandits pretty liberally, and I always "Strip and set outfit", 5 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: I'm not sure I follow you here. How is that different than just avoiding the cause of the bug? If the fix for the Naked Bandit Bug is to not change slaves' outfits, then the Naked Bandit Bug would seem not to have really been fixed, unless I'm missing something. if you don't consider the bug to be fixed, then we will have to instead call it an optional bug to those of you who still prefer the outfit method 5 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: Maybe I've missed some change under the bonnet that makes it possible now to keep them (un)dressed how I want them without the need for an outfit? At least in the past, if I didn't set an outfit, then they would periodically revert to their default outfit, yes, return to your mcm in the more current updates. this was added in 8.0.9 only thing that's missing now is the option for those who want them to wear clothing of your choosing without setting the naked outfit. On 3/20/2022 at 10:17 AM, Antiope_Apollonia said: What about FemaleDarkElf and FemaleElfHaughty? I have quite a few such slaves, and they're the most jarring when it comes to the mixed voices stuff—one slave voicing one line with FemaleDarkElf and another with FemaleEvenToned is pretty disorientating. And I guess FemaleOrc, for that matter, although I seldom come across any Orcs I want to keep. even toned is the default voice type for all voices not covered in those added voice types mentioned. i'm guessing layam forced the eventoned voice to prevent needing to make fuz files to voice every voice type. by forcing them all even toned all slaves could be voiced, but i'm guessing the voices mixed with the slave's natural voice when blabla added new dialogues without new fuz files to match the dialogues. when blabla started here everything was eventoned so there were several requests for more variety in the voices so he used skyrim's "shared" dialogues when ever possible. skyrim's shared dialogues use their natural voice types with all other dialogues already written in eventoned if somebody wants to go thru and voice all those dialogues to match the eventoned voice already in place, lmk and i can adjust the dialogue to match those lines. if somebody would like to instead switch slaves to always using their vanilla skyrim voices, they would need to instead voice every non-shared dialogues for every voice type skyrim has before i flip the switch to forced eventoned voices On 3/20/2022 at 10:17 AM, Antiope_Apollonia said: How is this checked? Would it be very difficult to make a patch for Darkwood Manufacturing anal plugs (Keyword: "dse_bp_KeywordArmorButtplug")? I've patched them to work with several other mods previously, but I suspect this might require messing with scripts? They're so aesthetically superior to DD plugs, and they don't fuck with animations the way DDs often do—I pretty much exclusively use them at this point. by keyword, yes its done at the script level, but i can look into adding dw plug keywords On 3/20/2022 at 10:17 AM, Antiope_Apollonia said: What all does this strip? Will it mess with jewellery? What about circlets? Does it respect the SexLabNoStrip keyword? anytime a slave is caught wearing body armor or clothing, that slave is stripped completely of everything that doesn't have pahrestarint or sexlabnostrip keywords. jewelry and circlets can be added to those keyword exceptions if preferred On 3/20/2022 at 10:17 AM, Antiope_Apollonia said: For this reason, I don't really understand why @CliftonJD has capped Combat at 150 or 175 in the recent updates, as that guarantees you'll deal with this issue when moving trained slaves into HSH. It seems like it'd be much better to set the cap at a value where capped slaves can be safely HSHed without encountering the bug. Why not cap combat at 125 already changed to 127 in the latest update On 3/20/2022 at 10:17 AM, Antiope_Apollonia said: That said, why is that particular fix a separate patch when it seems like all kinds of similar fixes are being rolled out in updates to the core mod? cuz that fix adds an additional requirement over the base mod requirements, as the name says, its for dragonborn dlc On 3/20/2022 at 10:17 AM, Antiope_Apollonia said: We were speaking a while ago about how released or escaped slaves essentially become "vegetables"; how hard would it be to give them a dialogue to re-enslave them if you find them again? When a slave escapes, and you track her down, and then you have to beat her half to death while she just stands there in order to re-enslave her, it's pretty unimmersive. escaped slaves and released slaves are handled differently. escaped slaves are indeed erased without exception so if you find her again, it would make sense to need to beat her senseless as she's a new spawn. released slaves are only erased if you release them without training them first like if you catch and release On 3/20/2022 at 10:17 AM, Antiope_Apollonia said: I have made no progress in figuring out what causes this, but once in a while—maybe 2-5% of slaves—I get a slave for whom the "I'm going to fuck you" dialogue just disappears (see screenshots below). It's not that they never had the dialogue—they start out normally, and then at some point, it breaks. Joslin, for example, made it all the way to 73 Sex Training before she broke. Nothing I've tried will bring it back. Moving them to HSH and back doesn't change anything. Resetting them doesn't change anything. Even recloning them doesn't change anything. These are just normal bandits, not uniques. It's quite rare, but when it happens, it's obviously pretty debilitating. the only reason i could think of for why a slave would start out with the dialogue but at some point later loses the dialogue, would be if somehow she didn't meet the criteria for any of those conditions mentioned in our previous discussion about that dialogue...means you've found another reason to rewrite and fix that dialogue On 3/20/2022 at 10:17 AM, Antiope_Apollonia said: Slaves who are told to fight aren't respecting unarmed duels. Before starting a brawl, you need to go through and tell your slaves not to fight. For what it's worth, I'm using the "Modern Brawl Bug Fix" patch. no idea if that's an issue with the brawl patch or a dom bug...my combat slaves don't treat brawls as combat. i remember in skyrim Le there was a bug that set the combat alarm for brawls, but i haven't seen that bug in sse so i can only assume its another mod causing it On 3/20/2022 at 10:17 AM, Antiope_Apollonia said: How hard would it be to add a pair of spells, one of which would command all slaves currently following you to "Stay here, don't move!" (or "Wait around here," either should be fine), and the other of which would command all slaves currently waiting to follow you? if it still works, that is the intended function of the whistle On 3/20/2022 at 10:17 AM, Antiope_Apollonia said: Can also confirm that it doesn't matter whether you try enslaving them before or after cleansing the Sun Stone with Bend Will for the quest. ok, not sure how to fix that if they still do it even after completing the quest On 3/20/2022 at 10:17 AM, Antiope_Apollonia said: For followers, while crouching, you still get the normal interact option instead of pickpocketing; can this same mechanic be applied to PAHE slaves? that's the player team mate setting applied to combat slaves
Martok73 Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 2 hours ago, CliftonJD said: before i flip the switch to forced eventoned voices I hope you're not considering making all slaves have the same voice? That would be a huge step backwards from what we have now. Yes there are discrepancies in the voices for a few lines of dialog, but for the most part, slaves use their default vanilla voice especially with the last voice files that another person did and uploaded here. There are exceptions of course where they don't but it's not alot. I and I'm sure many other would much rather prefer that all slaves used their default vanilla voice all the time with every dialog, but I know that to change the shared voice lines from eventoned, to their default would be a huge undertaking as the shared lines would not be usable anymore. I just hope that someone with the skill will step up and do it to keep the diversity in slaves voices and not have them all be the same. 2 hours ago, CliftonJD said: escaped slaves and released slaves are handled differently. escaped slaves are indeed erased without exception so if you find her again, it would make sense to need to beat her senseless as she's a new spawn. released slaves are only erased if you release them without training them first like if you catch and release Didn't know that escaped slaves were "cleared/erased" as when I caught them they still look the same. It makes perfect sense to have to "beat em' down" once you catch em'. Gotta break their will and desire to run somehow, lol. 2 hours ago, CliftonJD said: if it still works, that is the intended function of the whistle I've gotten the whistle function to work at all, I just figured it was broken or I wasn't doing something right. Is it supposed to work just for combat slaves or for all of them? Never could get it to work and summon any of them at all. 1
Gukahn Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 5 minutes ago, Martok73 said: I hope you're not considering making all slaves have the same voice? That would be a huge step backwards from what we have now. Yes there are discrepancies in the voices for a few lines of dialog, but for the most part, slaves use their default vanilla voice especially with the last voice files that another person did and uploaded here. There are exceptions of course where they don't but it's not alot. I and I'm sure many other would much rather prefer that all slaves used their default vanilla voice all the time with every dialog, but I know that to change the shared voice lines from eventoned, to their default would be a huge undertaking as the shared lines would not be usable anymore. I just hope that someone with the skill will step up and do it to keep the diversity in slaves voices and not have them all be the same. I would even prefer silent voice then hearing the same voice over and over and over and over... That's the sole reason i started to change voice types for followers ?
Villianize Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 @CliftonJD someone told me it's an issue between apropos and either pah or dom. I've started a new save and haven't seen the flickering slave bug since. I'll be sure to post if I notice anything
CliftonJD Posted March 21, 2022 Author Posted March 21, 2022 36 minutes ago, Martok73 said: I hope you're not considering making all slaves have the same voice? That would be a huge step backwards from what we have now. no, i'm the 1 who enabled those other voice types and some of those i made. if you look in the change log, you'll see where the added voice types are listed for recent updates to them. basically any voice type that's not listed there is already using the pah forced voice type eventoned 49 minutes ago, Martok73 said: Didn't know that escaped slaves were "cleared/erased" as when I caught them they still look the same. It makes perfect sense to have to "beat em' down" once you catch em'. Gotta break their will and desire to run somehow, lol. erasing them only happens if you don't catch them and they go from escaping to escaped 50 minutes ago, Martok73 said: I've gotten the whistle function to work at all, I just figured it was broken or I wasn't doing something right. Is it supposed to work just for combat slaves or for all of them? Never could get it to work and summon any of them at all. its been so long since blabla told me about the whistle i don't remember if its only for combat slaves or for all slaves that are following. the few times i needed it, i forgot all about it and since then have never needed it iirc, first usage is to command the following slaves to wait and second usage returns them to following
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