Devious Devices Framework Development/Beta

[Reesewow]

6 hours ago, donkeywho said:

I think that the trick in future will be to add the Frameworks you need, then the mods you want and what they are dependent on, and then see what SLAL packs your game can then cope with by way of anim volumes added

Pretty much this 100% IMO - people are currently undertaking a fairly major update to a framework mod on load orders that are stuffed to the max with animations from dozens of other mods and SLAL packs.  The proper approach would probably be the opposite by starting with the frameworks and dependent/"must have" mods, then adding "fluff" until your game finally cries uncle and crashes.  At that point you know you are at some type of technical maximum for your setup, and anything new you add will probably require something else be removed.

 

The biggest problem I forsee is that for some people there is no such thing as "fluff", and if they can't run 16k animations at once it may be blamed on the framework adding unique animations and functionality rather than the fact they have 30 varieties of "missionary MF" animations registered.

 

51 minutes ago, Pfiffy said:

Going throu the development threat, I read a lot of suggestions about things that should be added to DD... But all of this additions will cost something outside of DD. If you need DD just as dependency for some smaller mods even 4.0 is a slide case of overbombing. 

IMO it would be better if "smaller" mods used DD as a soft dependency or just required the mesh assets ect.  Plus, if you only need DD to install one "small" mod and aren't running any other DD related mods, I think you'd want to ask yourself if installing such a large framework for a single small mod is worth the possible technical issues.  Same for other large framework mods like ZAP or script heavy needs mods - people shouldn't be installing such large mods unless they intend to use them as an important part of their gameplay experience.

[Kimy]

I can see that, which is why we're trying to keep adding animations to reasonable levels, and we won't add stuff that's completely out of scope for DD, either.

 

Splitting up mods is not a sustainable solution, though. DD has already three parts and we're going to add a 4th soon. We'd just start clutter up people's load orders, and there is a limit to that, too.

Next, there is an animation limit, but there is also a workload limit for modders, and maintaining different branches of the same mod is just creating more overhead that could go into fixing bugs and adding fun new features. The animations we added are needed to support our new devices. You can't just strip them away without stripping the devices as well. As you said yourself, people want the full version anyway. As soon as only ONE popular content mod needs the full version, people will need to install it. And one always will. You gain nothing.

 

DD is generally not geared at providing a basis for super-small one trick pony mods. It would indeed be overkill for that. The vast majority of DD content mods are very large scale BDSM mods, making a large impact on gameplay and providing enough features for dozens of hours of fun without even touching any vanilla Skyrim quest. Combined, the DD family of mods amounts to the next best thing to a total conversion, except that the vanilla content is still playable, too. You can't support that kind of content and still demand the framework to leave only a tiny footprint.

 

Again, we're aware of the problem. We're not adding CPU or animation load without good reason. But the stuff we added were things people asked us absolute ages for. And yes, we will add a bit more. People want more bound sex animations, so we will deliver these. Some types of devices still have no struggle animations. And for version 4.2 we have plans for two more types of restraints requiring AA. Eventually we will reach a point where we might be sorted for animations, but we're not quite there yet. Our upcoming furniture mod will obviously need some, too. Will users and modders eventually have to decide between, say, PCEA2 and yet another SLAL pack? Or between DD and ZAP? Yes, that's absolutely inevitable. It's just the natural way of things. You could never install every single mod available for Skryim. As more mods are getting made, the relative amount of mods you can install at the same time is getting smaller, and people have to decide. I can't even see what's wrong with it. Choice is a good thing.

 

Btw. My own animation count is slightly over 7,500. It's not that you HAVE to have 15,000 animations. Admitted, it helps that I am not into creature stuff, so that saves me a few hundred right there, and I don't use PCEA 2 or ZAP 8 either. But the rest is just me picking SLAL packs I really want, and making choices. In the long run, that's what we all have to do.

[special]

On 6/3/2018 at 2:24 AM, galgat said:

  This is what happens when a mod messes with speed mult, I have seen it to many times. It eventually happens, you get stuck in low gear.

 

Why?  it may be another mod is doing some speed mult setting's as well, and one reset's it while the other holds it back, and now sense both think they have fixed thing's the player is left in low gear.

   It in almost every instance where I have seen it use multiple times, will eventually if used often enough screw up.  If the offending Item has been removed, and you type " player.getav speedmult " in console and it is less than 100, you are right it is hung.

 

   you can use "Player.setav speedmult 100" to return to normal, but lets say you have boots that are suppose to increase your speed, you may have just ruined there effect, and when you take them off, you could lose speed again, so strip everything off make sure you don't have any active effect's ( spell's ) that increase or decrease speed active ( some other mod may have added ), and then do the "Player.setav speedmult 100"

 

   And you still may be fucked if say you did some quest somewhere that gave you a +5 to your speed as a reward, that will now be gone, and likely never return.

 

   EDIT >> Also if and item did not get removed correctly, even setting the speed multiplier back, may only get it set right back to low gear, your really screwed then, return to and older save.

 

EDIT  >> One other thing check zaz shackle speed after you get your speed back to normal, and set it to 100, it may be the conflicting variable that is dicking with you.

 

  And by the way, I have no complaint as to mod's setting the speedmult ( I personally do not think it is a good Idea, but sometimes it is needed ), I just know it eventually will cause trouble, so it is good to know how to fix the problem with the console, if it can be fixed, which I have had times that it could not.

Thanks for the info and the console command fixes, I have had to use them to reset my character.

As far as I'm aware the only mods I have installed that change speed are from items supplied by DD or DCL.

The only thing I have changed lately is updated DD to 4.1 beta and updated DCL to latest version for the bug fixes @Kimy released so I can only conclude that it is a DD 4.1 Beta bug.

[special]

On 6/7/2018 at 3:32 PM, Kimy said:

Whaaaaaaaaaa...

I have not seen these!  When were they released?

I shall have to make sure I download 4.1 beta again incase I've missed something.

[Pfiffy]

31 minutes ago, Reesewow said:

 

 

IMO it would be better if "smaller" mods used DD as a soft dependency or just required the mesh assets ect.  Plus, if you only need DD to install one "small" mod and aren't running any other DD related mods, I think you'd want to ask yourself if installing such a large framework for a single small mod is worth the possible technical issues.  Same for other large framework mods like ZAP or script heavy needs mods - people shouldn't be installing such large mods unless they intend to use them as an important part of their gameplay experience.

Well, I released ZAZ for SE and I released 7, both 8.0 and both 8.0+ versions side by side. Most mods will only need ZAZ 7 to run. For those who need more can take a bigger pack.

But that is not the usual case... You usually have to buy the big pack. No matter if you need it or not. There are nearly no light versions and we are going to need them in the future. 

Don't get me wrong... I have no problem with further development of mods, but I think that Modders might consider to keep an lightwight solution in their portefolio... On the other hand ppl that just use mods should become more sensitve about what they install.  

[Kimy]

7 hours ago, Pfiffy said:

There are nearly no light versions and we are going to need them in the future.   

It will not happen.

 

ZAP 7 is a -very- unique case. It's not an intended light version. It's a mod that got abandoned by its creators about 2-3 years ago and thus got preserved in that state of development. The only reason why it's still out there is that the person who took it on started a new thread, so the old version is still around for mods with a legacy dependency on it (thankfully so).

 

You can generally expect modders to have no desire to offer 2-3 different versions of their mods and maintaining all of them. Again, light versions are 100% pointless - as soon as only ONE popular mod needs the full version, people will have to install it.

[Pfiffy]

11 minutes ago, Kimy said:

 

You can generally expect modders to have no desire to offer 2-3 different versions of their mods and maintaining all of them. Again, light versions are 100% pointless - as soon as only ONE popular mod needs the full version, people will have to install it.

Well, they also don't want to discuss CTD issues due to heavy overload...  

[Kimy]

7 hours ago, Pfiffy said:

Well, they also don't want to discuss CTD issues due to heavy overload...  

No way to avoid that. Users always fill their load orders until breaking point. That has been that since the day the first mods released...

[Pfiffy]

2 minutes ago, Kimy said:

No way to avoid that. Users always fill their load orders until breaking point. That has been that since the day the first mods released...

Sure... And they always blame the last mod that they have installed...

[Kimy]

7 hours ago, Pfiffy said:

Sure... And they always blame the last mod that they have installed...

Good thing that DD is a framework that OTHER mods depend on... ?

[Pfiffy]

4 minutes ago, Kimy said:

Good thing that DD is a framework that OTHER mods depend on... ?

As long as you can still load them after it.?

[Reesewow]

45 minutes ago, Pfiffy said:

Well, they also don't want to discuss CTD issues due to heavy overload...  

Another thing to think of - unless mod authors put version checks in their mods to detect the specific version number their mods need they are similarly likely to be spammed by "lite" framework version users complaining about things missing or not working. 

 

This happened recently with "Being A Cow" where users running ZAP 7 got halfway through the mod just to get blocked since the mod required a piece of ZAP 8 furniture for a scene, and was a showstopper for those users unless they updated.  I think I've helped troubleshoot that repeated question 3 times myself, no idea how often people have reported this as a bug and been corrected overall.

[DonQuiWho]

@Kimy @Reesewow @Pfiffy

 

Can't disagree with much you folks have said

 

First thing really should be to see if there is any way of SLAL being amended to 'intercept' anim packs to allow it to only load into the game those packed anims that people actually want in their game, not everything on offer in the pack, from which they can then chose to install some to SexLab.  That could cut down unnecessary anim load.  I'll see if there is anyone on that thread that might be interested in trying to do that

 

Second, it really would be sensible to split the furniture stuff from the restraint stuff.  Watching the threads over the last few months, I see almost 2 strains in play. 

 

First, there are those who like those to be eye candy and decorative so that, putting it in a simple, but not intended to be pejorative, way, they can prance around Skyrim in restrains when the gameplay is 'imaginative, something in their heads' for want of a better description  

 

Second, there are those who want 'sticky' restraints, with a touch of 'realism' where the game is to evade, and if not, out of the player's direct controlm get caught, suffer any consequences arising, and escape, and live to then fight another day.  That's a different sort of 'in the head' game, but using the tech to add a sense of realism that';s not there in the first type of game

 

One problem right now is that, while the DD restraints can be used on a range of 'lock styles', from 'almost inescapable' to 'no problem at all', the 'furniture and fittings' aren't working in, or apparently available to, any other framework in a way that makes/will make their use in the second type of scenario feasible, other than when a modder takes steps, outside of the framework definitions and protocols, to makes them act in that sort of 'realistic' way.  Honorary mentions for that go to, at very least,  @Musje and @Tyrant99 for the excellent work they've done with Musje's HSH and AYGAS, and Tyrant's Whiterun Brothel Revamped

 

If that's not going to get sorted, eventually people will be forced by their gameplay style to chose to forego using certain frameworks and mods together in specific games, because the capacity will not be there to deal with the anim load from both frameworks and other mods in play

 

Hope that makes sense, and doesn't come across as an, altogether unintended', rant :-)

 

 

 

[Kimy]

The DD furniture component will be based on the same idea as the rest of DD - the modders will have complete control over their devices and will be able to make it either completely inescapable or just a fun thing to play with you can step out at any time you want. You can expect its features to be way above and beyond what's currently offered in ZAP, including a locking and escape system. The devices will also be able to deal with DD restraints worn, without the modder having to code any workarounds on their end. Compatibility with ZAP is not a concern for us, though. The code won't be able to handle its devices or recognize them. It's really meant as an alternative to ZAP, so that DD mods are no longer forced to link to it just because they need furniture devices.

[Reesewow]

19 minutes ago, donkeywho said:

 

First thing really should be to see if there is any way of SLAL being amended to 'intercept' anim packs to allow it to only load into the game those packed anims that people actually want in their game, not everything on offer in the pack, from which they can then chose to install some to SexLab.  That could cut down unnecessary anim load.  I'll see if there is anyone on that thread that might be interested in trying to do that

This would be a cool thing to have and help people pick and choose individual animations, but unless I misunderstand how animations work with FNIS/Skryim you're talking about a completely unique FNIS list editor tool external from Skyrim itself.  SLAL packs are "fully loaded" in Skyrim because they have FNIS lists that define the animations so FNIS itself can generate the behavior files Skyirm needs.  What you are describing sounds like more of a script to read and rewrite SLAL packs in order to make customized versions, which can then be installed and FNIS used to generate behaviors with these "stripped down" versions.

[DonQuiWho]

33 minutes ago, Reesewow said:

This would be a cool thing to have and help people pick and choose individual animations, but unless I misunderstand how animations work with FNIS/Skryim you're talking about a completely unique FNIS list editor tool external from Skyrim itself.  SLAL packs are "fully loaded" in Skyrim because they have FNIS lists that define the animations so FNIS itself can generate the behavior files Skyirm needs.  What you are describing sounds like more of a script to read and rewrite SLAL packs in order to make customized versions, which can then be installed and FNIS used to generate behaviors with these "stripped down" versions.

Yep

 

That's what I've said on the SLAL thread.  Even I understand that much  ? 

 

EDIT: I've not taken complete leave of my senses.  For some reason the 'Reply' to that thread didn't post!  At least, the draft was still sitting there. 

 

I think I might have given up on the grounds of utter incomprehensibility if I'd had to type it all again ?

[galgat]

  Zaz actually does a lot more than just furniture, slave control, and passing that information to other mods easy is another thing, it does. blindfold, shackles speed control (for those that think they only have there speed multiplier effected by DDI if they have zaz they are wrong, but you can turn Zaz speed control off ) .

 

    If continue to make all these changes it looks grim for the amount of actual sex  animation's we will have ( this we already know is UN-avoidable ).

 

    Older mod's will be gone with the increase of control reduced by the key system that is no longer trust-able, as it will no longer work 100% of the time now, so any mod of the past that just placed generic device's on the player, and gave them a key as a reward to get out with are toast now, as best I can tell, as the key is no longer a true release, and will fail, and then the mod is broken.

   saying the modder will have to fix it when they are long gone is not really and answer, but it does pass the problem off to someone else. 

 

  as the newer DDI system has been release, and now implemented by many mod's we are stuck with that, so there is no fix, except maybe and option to turn off the failure of the key in the MCM of DDI.  That could give some way of allowing mod's that are older to be more able to function as they did, but would not stop mods that actually use the failure system ( I am not sure I know of one that use's the jammed, broken, to tired, has to be repaired system, but I am sure they are there )  from still working.

 

    That only leaves the swapping of the arm binder and yoke to heavy I think as the other loss of backward compatibility ( and zaz removal from DDI ), if I understand all the failure's of older mod's correctly. ( I may be wrong on that.)  I am only looking at everything from a user prospective.  ( But they are the one's that ultimately play the mod's, and use the resources the most)

 

    It will be interesting to see how much we lose, and how much we gain over time.

 

 

[Musje]

2 hours ago, Reesewow said:

Another thing to think of - unless mod authors put version checks in their mods to detect the specific version number their mods need they are similarly likely to be spammed by "lite" framework version users complaining about things missing or not working. 

 

This happened recently with "Being A Cow" where users running ZAP 7 got halfway through the mod just to get blocked since the mod required a piece of ZAP 8 furniture for a scene, and was a showstopper for those users unless they updated.  I think I've helped troubleshoot that repeated question 3 times myself, no idea how often people have reported this as a bug and been corrected overall.

This is the approach I prefer, but keep in mind it can be a lot of work. Home Sweet Home supports any valid combination of Zap 7, ZEP, 8, 8+, DM, DD and/or HR. And that works because it's a "sandbox" mod, you can safely leave out features if people don't have the required mod installed. But if you really need a particular item from a mod, what can you do? You could ask the author to include that particular item in your own mod... but it kind of defeats the purpose of having "resource" mods in the first place.

[MadMansGun]

1 hour ago, donkeywho said:

.

1. get a SLAL Pack that comes with it's txt source file.

2. delete animations you don't want from the txt.

3. run the SLAnimGenerate.pyw file (you need python 3).

4. use generatefnisformodders.exe and open the fnis list files for the SLAL Pack.

5. run GenerateFNISforUsers.exe.

6. pray that you did not fuck everything up.

7. re load/register the json files & animations in SLAL.

[DonQuiWho]

21 minutes ago, MadMansGun said:

1. get a SLAL Pack that comes with it's txt source file.

2. delete animations you don't want from the txt.

3. run the SLAnimGenerate.pyw file (you need python 3).

4. use generatefnisformodders.exe and open the fnis list files for the SLAL Pack.

5. run GenerateFNISforUsers.exe.

6. pray that you did not fuck everything up.

7. re load/register the json files & animations in SLAL.

I'm really not being difficult, nor am I entirely thick, but, much as i appreciate the help offered, and I really really do;

 

1:  I understand

2:  I think I can just about do

3:  Hmmm..  Do I unpack the file, do that, repack it, and then put it into my Mod Manager (MO). or do I do that after installing the pack in MO, on the unpacked mod, but before running FNIS/SKSE loader?

4:  'the fnis list files'.  Again, is that something I do on the, now amended, unpacked mod in my MO Mods folder? Or somewhere else, outside of MO?  And what changes does it make where, that I would expect to see, pls?

5:  If I got 1 to 4 right, I reckon I might just about manage this... ?

6:  That bit, creeping in near the end, bothers me a lot.  I am a well known fucker upper

7:  Whoa!  A magical json file comes in, riding on a unicorn....  I want a blue passport for that.... LOL

 

Is all this covered in the SLAL docs anywhere?  I think I might want to read them, however painful the experience 

 

More seriously, thanks for the pointers.  At least I know what I'm looking to do, even if I might have some way to go in understanding it properly ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pfiffy]

Hm... 

 

6. pray that you did not fuck everything up.

 

Sounds scary.....

 

I just wonder, if it is possible to make SLAL store the installed anims in a way that only the registered anims end up in the save, so you can add whole packs without running into CTD issues unless you have activated them. The big anim packs already come with a fomod installer, so you can sort stuff out, but further splitting them up will sooner or later break the MCM of SLAL as it is now. 

[Kimy]

7 hours ago, Musje said:

This is the approach I prefer, but keep in mind it can be a lot of work. Home Sweet Home supports any valid combination of Zap 7, ZEP, 8, 8+, DM, DD and/or HR. And that works because it's a "sandbox" mod, you can safely leave out features if people don't have the required mod installed. But if you really need a particular item from a mod, what can you do? You could ask the author to include that particular item in your own mod... but it kind of defeats the purpose of having "resource" mods in the first place.

That's mostly correct. But on the other hand, you normally don't want to make people install a 500MB whopper of a resource mod because you really love THAT one helmet in there. Sometimes, it boils down to weighing the pros against the cons. If it's really just ONE item, I'd honestly rather ask the author for permission to include it, or replicate a similar one, if they're not fine with it. Or, even better, just redesign my idea a notch, so the item won't be needed in the first place.

 

There are mods out there that make people install HR -ON TOP- of DD, despite DD contains about 98% of all items in the HR pack. I mean...really? The missing 2% will hardly make or break a mod, no? Being mindful of people's load orders when deciding dependencies is a good thing, and sometimes creation involves compromising here and there. A few days ago, I removed ZAP from Cursed Loot's master list, so it's no longer a dependency. I had to spend about 15 minutes thinking about replacing the handful of ZAP items I actually used with other approaches. But that was that. Honestly, these items weren't really needed for my content. I just used them because ZAP was a requirement of the DD framework back in the days. But I didn't NEED them.

[Dust+]

Hey, @Kimy. I asked a question, maybe you didn't see or something. Can you pls answer, I'm really want to know what in your mind about this.

On 6/5/2018 at 11:32 PM, Dust+ said:

Is there any way to make impossible transform into beast form while your hands are tied up? (transform into Lord Vimpire or Werewolf)

I don't want to annoying you but this is an important topic. That's why I asking again. I think people who playing Skyrim not only because of adult content, use transformation in every or almost every walkthrough. Werewolf and Lord Vampyre transformations is the important part of TES lor and Skyrim particularly. At last, there are many really interesting mods for Werewolfs and Vampires.

In this moment, you can transformate into beast form while wearing DD items. Of course all items and effects from them dissapear while you into beast form and this is not a big deal, because when you'll transform into human form, all restraints will appear in your inventory again, still loked on you, but not apears on your body. This is not a big deal too, because you must to open inventory, click on each item and it automatically will show on you again and seems like all restraints work fine after that.

All, but not hands restraints. Restraints on your hands will be locked on you and you still must to unlock it by key or struggle, but animation would be broken.

That's why I asking to make impossible transform into beast while your hands restrained.

Of course I know that ideas for features to DD 4.1 was closed, and I'm waiting for 4.1 release SOOOOO MUCH, but like I said before, transformations are the important part of Skyrim gameplay and TES lor. Would be good if you did something with that.

Whatever it be, thanks for great mods ?

[DarkWolve9]

On 6/8/2018 at 1:49 PM, Kimy said:

I tested this and couldn't reproduce that bug...

That's strange... I reinstalled Skyrim from the ground up with DD and its required mods installed only, but the problem is still there... None of the arm restraints work well with the pony play animation.

 

Anyway thanks for the investigation! ?

 

There's another problem with the "Transparent Catsuit High Heels". It seems that I can never make them show up when equipped. I've tried rebuilding them in BodySlide several times but made no difference. Would you please investigate them as well?

[Kimy]

10 hours ago, DarkWolve9 said:

That's strange... I reinstalled Skyrim from the ground up with DD and its required mods installed only, but the problem is still there... None of the arm restraints work well with the pony play animation.

What's the exact steps you performed to produce that bugt?

 

That's how I tested it:

 

1. Started a new game (obviously newest DD dev version as that's what's installed)

2. Equipped pet play boots

3. Animation changed properly

4. Equipped armbinder

5. Animation changed properly

6. Removed armbinder

7. Animation changed properly

8. Equipped yoke

9. Animation changed properly