Devious Devices Framework Development/Beta

[Addasus]

Are there any plans for bound animations for things like sitting in chairs or getting in beds? 

[Solatium]

Can we talk about the horny/tug animations?

1. The animations freeze you in place and prevent any gameplay, forcing you to watch the animation and do nothing else.
2. If you've already watched the animations a few times, you get less and less out of it with repeated viewings.
3. This one's minor, and probably doesn't apply to most players. The horny, breast groping animation assumes that the user is playing as a certain body type. I tend to have characters that are a bit more skinny (UNP Skinny to be specific), and the groping animation looks a little silly when they're groping breasts that are a few inches away from their hands.
4. Points 1 and 2, combined with 3 for me, make the animation event start to become very tedious after repeated viewings. Tedium isn't fun, and while these devices are meant to be punishing, I think they should be punishing in ways that force creativity, not boredom.
5. The tug animation lasts more than twice as long as the horny animation, always triggers the horny animation after the fact if you're at a certain arousal level, and the only way to stop it happening automatically is to scour the code looking for which events to turn off. I didn't get through the first play through of that event without resorting to commands to wrestle back control of my character.

I know people throw this word "unplayable" around pretty loosely in this thread, but that system has made it unplayable for me. I'm not sure what anyone expects me to do for 15-30 seconds of animations that I've already seen a dozen times. An alternative that I've pitched before is to allow the player to move, but limit their speed if possible. I'd tolerate animations twice as long if I could at least move a little during them, since then the mechanic would make the game challenging instead of boring.

[RegisteredUser]

I agree, the event animations in 4.0 were a step back - I preferred the legacy ones, especially in terms of duration, but also partly in the way they look. I guess the idea was that you'd see animations less often, what with the new struggle system that only lets you squirm every so often, as opposed to being able to do it over and over in older versions... and thus the animations could be more elaborate. Or something. That's just speculation on my side.

 

But just like "brevity is the soul of wit", I'd say "brevity is the soul of sexyness" in this case. IMO the animation doesn't have to be super elaborate; it just has to convey the distilled essence of what the character is eperiencing, while ideally lasting no longer than 10 seconds, 15 at most. The legacy animations were, for the most part, better at this.

 

In terms of low-hanging fruit, IMO a lot of the 4.0 animations could be improved simply by speeding them up. The belt struggle animation for example, it feels like it's playing at half speed, or even slower than that. Hands moving super slowly and deliberately, even during phases where the hand is not touching/stroking the body. This doesn't really capture the sense of urgency and frustration I'd associate with being desperate for release - I'd expect more a kind of hasty, erratic, shaky-hands kind of thing. Accelerating the playback is a cheap and easy way to move towards that, and it'll look better overall. IRL, slow and deliberate movements are actually unusual, and generally the result of conscious effort to slow down; when unchecked, human body movements can be pretty darn fast.

 

However, credit where credit is due: the 4.0 animation system has great potential, and I think it'll ultimately make for a better experience. And I've also already seen changes being made to animations in the dev versions - well, I saw them being mentioned anyway, I haven't actually tried it out myself. So things are probably going to be noticably better in 4.1.

 

 

[Richard1234]

Hi, I finally had some time to reproduce the hobble dress speed issue on unequip and get a log.

 

This was on a new game, after I saved and loaded a few times to let DDI initialise. After that I equipped and unequipped the hobble dress 3 times.

 

First time: speed was lowered in 2 steps the second step occuring a few seconds after the first. Unequipping the dress didn't reset the character's speed to what it was before, but to a lower speed.

Second time: same behaviour as the first time, but then to an even lower speed.

Third time: speed was lowered once. Unequipping the dress reset the character's speed to what it was before equipping.

Papyrus.0.log

 

I don't really know how to interpret this log. Does it tell that my installation is borked or is something else going on?

[LazyBoot]

2 hours ago, Richard1234 said:

Hi, I finally had some time to reproduce the hobble dress speed issue on unequip and get a log.

 

This was on a new game, after I saved and loaded a few times to let DDI initialise. After that I equipped and unequipped the hobble dress 3 times.

 

First time: speed was lowered in 2 steps the second step occuring a few seconds after the first. Unequipping the dress didn't reset the character's speed to what it was before, but to a lower speed.

Second time: same behaviour as the first time, but then to an even lower speed.

Third time: speed was lowered once. Unequipping the dress reset the character's speed to what it was before equipping.

Papyrus.0.log

 

I don't really know how to interpret this log. Does it tell that my installation is borked or is something else going on?

Could you post a loadorder and/or list of mod you have installed as well?

[Richard1234]

Sure. I tried getting a nice list of stuff out of MO, but couldn't figure out how.. so here's pictures. Is this usable?

[Kimy]

On 5/24/2018 at 4:59 PM, Solatium said:

Can we talk about the horny/tug animations?

1. The animations freeze you in place and prevent any gameplay, forcing you to watch the animation and do nothing else.
2. If you've already watched the animations a few times, you get less and less out of it with repeated viewings.
3. This one's minor, and probably doesn't apply to most players. The horny, breast groping animation assumes that the user is playing as a certain body type. I tend to have characters that are a bit more skinny (UNP Skinny to be specific), and the groping animation looks a little silly when they're groping breasts that are a few inches away from their hands.
4. Points 1 and 2, combined with 3 for me, make the animation event start to become very tedious after repeated viewings. Tedium isn't fun, and while these devices are meant to be punishing, I think they should be punishing in ways that force creativity, not boredom.
5. The tug animation lasts more than twice as long as the horny animation, always triggers the horny animation after the fact if you're at a certain arousal level, and the only way to stop it happening automatically is to scour the code looking for which events to turn off. I didn't get through the first play through of that event without resorting to commands to wrestle back control of my character.

I know people throw this word "unplayable" around pretty loosely in this thread, but that system has made it unplayable for me. I'm not sure what anyone expects me to do for 15-30 seconds of animations that I've already seen a dozen times. An alternative that I've pitched before is to allow the player to move, but limit their speed if possible. I'd tolerate animations twice as long if I could at least move a little during them, since then the mechanic would make the game challenging instead of boring.

Compared to 4.0, I cut the average animation play time in half in 4.1. Are your comments about 4.0, or do you think they are STILL too long?

 

#3 is unavoidable, sadly. Our devices and animations will work nicely for halfway average body shapes, but if you deviate into "extreme" territory, they won't look right. The problem with boobs in specific is the wide range of sizes people use for their characters. On people's screenshots I have seen everything from absolutely flat-chested to characters that looked as if somebody glued a pair of basketballs to her chest. We can't accommodate for all of that.

[Prime66]

42 minutes ago, Kimy said:

Compared to 4.0, I cut the average animation play time in half in 4.1. Are your comments about 4.0, or do you think they are STILL too long?

 

 

Perhaps not too long but for me, it happens way too often. I'm not sure to which event the Tug animation is tied in the MCM I thought it is connected to the Struggle event and so I set it to five but it still happened too often.  Or if the animation isn´t tied to an event in the MCM perhaps make that an option. 

 

and while I am here is the Wiki documentation for modders still relevant?  

[RegisteredUser]

Perhaps the arousal levels at which it triggers could be changed? For SexLab Aroused Redux as it ships, the character only starts being flagged as "distracted" by arousal at levels of 50+, and earnestly needy at 70+. And mind you, I have not specifically paid attention to this so I might in fact be wrong, but I feel like I remember the belt tug animation sometimes triggering below 50.

 

I think it would make sense for the character to only stop whatever she's doing and try to get out of her belt if the sexual urge is actually significant enough.

 

 

And while we're at it, something else I remember noticing while playing with 4.0: the fact that the tug animation increases arousal by a signficant amount gets awkward in places. It means that there's close to no difference between wearing plugs and being belted without plugs anymore - both cases have your character guaranteed to hit 100 arousal in short order. Kind of gets in the way of voluntarily equipping chastity gear for protection, and it doesn't feel natural either. Sometimes I want to roleplay a character who starts off shy and only becomes kinky over the course of her experiences. Kind of hard when she responds to being stuck in her very first chastity belt not by "well this is awkward" but rather by "this turns me on so much!". This is doubly annoying when the player has absolutely zero control over the tug animation happening.

 

I agree that suffering increased arousal from failed escape attempts on belts is an interesting mechanic, and you should definitely keep that. But uncontrolled background arousal gain at the rate that even empty belts gave me when I played feels too much. Perhaps reduce it to a single exposure point? Or remove it altogether. It doesn't really add anything that wearing plugs doesn't already do.

[Solatium]

7 hours ago, Kimy said:

Compared to 4.0, I cut the average animation play time in half in 4.1. Are your comments about 4.0, or do you think they are STILL too long?

 

#3 is unavoidable, sadly. Our devices and animations will work nicely for halfway average body shapes, but if you deviate into "extreme" territory, they won't look right. The problem with boobs in specific is the wide range of sizes people use for their characters. On people's screenshots I have seen everything from absolutely flat-chested to characters that looked as if somebody glued a pair of basketballs to her chest. We can't accommodate for all of that.

My comments were about 4.0 - I hadn't realized that that was changed in 4.1. I apologize for not checking beforehand, and thank you for making that change. #3 wasn't really a feature request as much as an example of how certain animations may hold less value to some players over others.

[Derenriche]

Currently the animation for tripping over heels do not play to completion and always gets cut halfway before getting up.

[Zhash61]

One thing I would like to ask for is to re-implement the feature that locks the MCM for DD when the player is tied.  Kind of like: "Oh, this is too hard to get out of, let me just reset the difficulty..."

 

On another note though, I do love the changes to the difficulty sliders.  Thank you for that.

[Kimy]

I got asked about a cumulative change log listing all changes since version 4.0. Here it is!

 

Change Log 4.0 -> 4.1

- Added: Pet suit. This extremely punishing set of leg and arm binders will force the wearer into a crawl.
- Added: New, larger ball gags and matching expressions.
- Added: Transparent rubber versions of several devices (e.g. restrictive set, hobble skirt)
- Added: Rope restraints (e.g. arm binder, full body bindings)
- Added: Event animations for tripping and being out of breath.
- Added: New struggle animations for several devices (gags, boots, gloves, etc.)
- Added: New bleedout idles suitable for restrained actors.
- Added: New surrender idles for modders.
- Added: New "Unconscious" idles for modders.
- Added: New Horny/orgam idles for bound actors that will get selected by appropriate events.
- Added: Pony animations for pet play, that can be attached to any item!
- Added: Pony Play Boots. These will make use of the new pony animations.
- Added: Tape gags.
- Added: New ModEvent Function SendDeviceEscapeEvent(armor inventoryDevice, keyword deviceKeyword, bool successful) that will signal when an actor makes a successful or unsuccessful escape attempt. Modders can register to this signal to react to escape attempts.
- Changed: The difficulty slider has been split in three. One for escape chances, cooldowns and key break chances respectively.
- Changed: The speed effect on hobble skirts is now more resilient.
- Changed: Removed unlock cooldown from most items, the default cooldown is now zero.
- Changed: Some struggle animations had their average play time reduced by about 50%.
- Fixed: The struggle animation is no longer played when cooldowns are preventing unlocking.
- Fixed: Non-armbinder wrist restraints no longer get wiped off NPCs during framework maintenance cleanup passes.
- Fixed: Removed several ITM records

 

Hope this makes testing easier!

[Addasus]

12 hours ago, Kimy said:

- Added: Pony animations for pet play, that can be attached to any item!

Are these added via modding things in the Creation Kit, or are you saying that it's possible to add these to items through enchanting or something?

[Kimy]

You can slap a keyword on any DD item that will trigger the effects.

[VirginMarie]

@Kimy is it feature frozen and close to release? Or will there be more stuff first?

[LazyBoot]

59 minutes ago, VirginMarie said:

@Kimy is it feature frozen and close to release? Or will there be more stuff first?

 

[SleepyJim]

Noticed some weirdness with the pony animations and wrist restraints.

 

I equipped the pony play boots and all the animations seemed to work fine. When wearing any heavy bondage wrist restraints though, things started to go wrong. All of the following happened only when either sneaking or sprinting while wearing the boots:

 

With a yoke equipped the arms go into armbinder pose.

With a breast yoke equipped the arms go into handcuff/prisoner chain pose.

With handcuffs or prisoner chain equipped the arms are in an unbound pose.

When elbowbinder is equipped the arms go into breast yoke pose.

When armbinder is equipped the arms go into standard yoke pose.

 

All of this was using plain black leather or iron versions of the restraints. Straitjackets seemed fine, perhaps because there are no arms at all.

 

Has anyone else noticed this, or am I still drunk from last night?

[Guest]

With the new beta I cant load skyrim even on a new game maybe i am hitting some type of a limit because disabling some LL mods fixes it, it doesn't matter which ones i disable just as long as I disable one or two of them pretty strange. I am using crash fixes so I didn't think it was a string limit or maybe it is a fnis animation limit thats causing it i'll have to do more testing.

[Pfiffy]

7 minutes ago, Risamei said:

With the new beta I cant load skyrim even on a new game maybe i am hitting some type of a limit because disabling some LL mods fixes it, it doesn't matter which ones i disable just as long as I disable one or two of them pretty strange. I am using crash fixes so I didn't think it was a string limit or maybe it is a fnis animation limit thats causing it i'll have to do more testing.

There are limits outside of fnis, but everybody blames the anims because they are usually the easiest way to fix that. 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Pfiffy said:

There are limits outside of fnis, but everybody blames the anims because they are usually the easiest way to fix that. 

I wasn't blaming anything only suggesting that it would possibly be the cause of my crashes. I mean if i use DD 4.0 with my modlist its fine once I install DD 4.1 I cant load my game nor a new game. Still testing to find out the exact cause though.

[Pfiffy]

2 minutes ago, Risamei said:

I wasn't blaming anything only suggesting that it would possibly be the cause of my crashes. I mean if i use DD 4.0 with my modlist its fine once I install DD 4.1 I cant load my game nor a new game. Still testing to find out the exact cause though.

It is simply more load.... 

[Guest]

Well I don't know the exact issue after spending 2 more hours trying to figure it out I couldn't come up with a solution.

With DD4.1 crashes when i try to start a new game.

With DD4.0  it doesn't crash and I assumed that maybe it was because more content amount added in DD4.1 that caused the crash because i have too much mods I decided to add slaverun, shout like a virgin and Maria Eden some of the largest mods I know of to my current modlist and it still wouldn't crash with DD4.0.

 

I wish i could give more helpful information but I try to use process of elimination with my mods but I couldn't nail it down  maybe someone else can tell me if they're having issues as well.

 

[Reesewow]

29 minutes ago, Risamei said:

Well I don't know the exact issue after spending 2 more hours trying to figure it out I couldn't come up with a solution.

With DD4.1 crashes when i try to start a new game.

With DD4.0  it doesn't crash and I assumed that maybe it was because more content amount added in DD4.1 that caused the crash because i have too much mods I decided to add slaverun, shout like a virgin and Maria Eden some of the largest mods I know of to my current modlist and it still wouldn't crash with DD4.0.

 

I wish i could give more helpful information but I try to use process of elimination with my mods but I couldn't nail it down  maybe someone else can tell me if they're having issues as well.

 

You would probably have an easier time trying to remove large mods and/or mods that add lots of animation files to see if you can successfully run 4.1 than intentionally trying to recreate the issue with 4.0.  I don't think anyone's yet found a specific cause or value for what is "too much" modding, other than it often crops up when updating or adding mods with lots of animation files (which 4.0->4.1 would be).  While the mods you mention are probably fairly large, they may not contribute much to your specific CTD issue.

 

I think the ideal first test would be to see if you can start a game with a small load order including DD 4.1 - if you can load up the game and DD works properly, then your issue is likely either a mod conflict or simply too heavy of a load order.  Easiest way to try to find a balance would probably be to concentrate on large mods you don't use, mods that add lots of animations and might have a "lighter" version (example, try ZAP 8 instead of 8+), or cutting SLAL packs you don't need.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Reesewow said:

You would probably have an easier time trying to remove large mods and/or mods that add lots of animation files to see if you can successfully run 4.1 than intentionally trying to recreate the issue with 4.0.  I don't think anyone's yet found a specific cause or value for what is "too much" modding, other than it often crops up when updating or adding mods with lots of animation files (which 4.0->4.1 would be).  While the mods you mention are probably fairly large, they may not contribute much to your specific CTD issue.

 

I think the ideal first test would be to see if you can start a game with a small load order including DD 4.1 - if you can load up the game and DD works properly, then your issue is likely either a mod conflict or simply too heavy of a load order.  Easiest way to try to find a balance would probably be to concentrate on large mods you don't use, mods that add lots of animations and might have a "lighter" version (example, try ZAP 8 instead of 8+), or cutting SLAL packs you don't need.

Thats what i spent two hours trying to do