Devious Devices Framework Development/Beta

[Princessity]

 

• Added new struggle animations to all wrist restraints, replacing the old ZAP struggles

 

 

All the yokes I tried (heavy, steel, high security) used the old animations, not sure if that was intended. Boob yoke worked fine though with the new animation.

 

New animations look really good anyway. Rest of the wrist restraints worked with new animations.

 

 

Oh I forgot to mention: your old devices won't be retroactively updated. You need to throw them out and spawn new instances. Also make sure you are only using DDi or DDx devices, third party devices aren't updated yet.

[Darkpig]

Report: Playing the version from today. The heel sounds for the black ebonite catsuit ballet boots are swapped with the black ebonite rubber socks.

The Yellow long gloves shows up as a weird white and the dark grey longgloves are missing textures or something. Everything else seems to check out ok.

[worik]

Regarding the struggle attempts, I would sort the list from easy to difficut in the follwing order. I know that it is already discussed differently, but since you ask for opinions ... well here is mine:

• Handcuffs (front) - easy, maybe even as low as 5 attempts without any modifiers
• Prisoner Chains - same, maybe a slight bit more difficult, 5-10  feels okay for me
• Breast Yoke - same
• Yoke - slighty more, should be around 10-15 now, roughly double as difficult as handcuffs
• Elbowbinder - again slightly more 15-20,
• Armbinder - almost hardest, around 4-5 times as difficult as handcuffs, so in my sorting we should need at least 20 attempts, maybe even more...
• Straightjacket - hardest - at least 25

In fact I feel even higher numbers should be used to reflect reality. But as always with all those rising numbers, the problem is that is too easily on a boring path for the player.

• *excited* "I am bound in an armbinder, how exciting, let's try to escape!"
• *irritated* "I can struggle out of it, that'all? OK, let's try"
• *frustated* "10th attempt... boooring, but I feel it will work, go on"
• *yaaaaawn* "19th attempt .... one more,  I know it... boooooooring"
• *tilt* - not exciting any more

But still "only" 10 attempts for an armbinder without any modifier ... again this would also feel utterly wrong..

 

EDIT:

Nevertheless, if my character is captured by evil villains and bound in an armbinder... I go for the struggling, even with 40 attempts! I've done worse in skyrim

An idea for my rising numbers could be to randomly cap the attempts at a certain number and internally declare the equipped device inescapable-by-struggling... AND leave the player in the dark. Consequence (at least for me) would be to try 10 escape attempts and if the don't work, I still have the thrill to try more (in futile hope) or to watch out for a different escape route

[harakoni]

 

 

• Added new struggle animations to all wrist restraints, replacing the old ZAP struggles

 

 

All the yokes I tried (heavy, steel, high security) used the old animations, not sure if that was intended. Boob yoke worked fine though with the new animation.

 

New animations look really good anyway. Rest of the wrist restraints worked with new animations.

 

 

Oh I forgot to mention: your old devices won't be retroactively updated. You need to throw them out and spawn new instances. Also make sure you are only using DDi or DDx devices, third party devices aren't updated yet.

 

 

This was a fresh save. Which yokes are DDi/DDx perhaps I picked the wrong one, although I don't think I've got any third party yokes installed unless maybe they were from the original ZAP or something.

[Mirabo]

Love the new animations! They worked fine for me.

although the red (non ebonite) armbinder still produces keyword error messages for me. Rest of the DDx armbinders were fine.

 

Input for # of struggle attempts: 

It is very much a matter of philosophy. I like to get restrained often, but escapes are plentiful and  it shouldn't be too hard / time consuming (I don't think clicking on a button once every 30 secs for 10 minutes is interesting gameplay) to get out of the restraints.

That being said, I've never been a fan of simply struggling out of restraints since it feels "cheap" and should be a last resort. So brute forcing your way out of restraints should take you quite a while and should feel tedious. I always liked the alternatives (cutting them, lockpicking, asking for help, etc).

 

Imho it should be pretty much impossible to struggle out of metal restraints (how would you ever struggle out of a locked yoke?) so a 5% chance max.

Elbow and armbinders should be easiest, so ~ 5 attempts.

The ingame straightjacket looks pretty inescapable, too, so it should be 10-15

 

[dnoah]

I'm sensing an erotic/role-playing/realism nuance in apparent tediousness of this escape system. (No idea whether the devs intended it, or I'm simply reading too much into this.) Try taking the player char's point of view. So, she managed to get herself into a number of restraining devices. Realistically, escaping (with absence of proper tools like abrasive saw and/or blowtorch) would be just that - long and tedious. So, instead of spending hours going through the motions, she may *choose* to wait a bit, or seek help - not because she is a complete and utter submissive, but because it seems like lesser (well at least more stimulating) of the two evils (escape vs wait/do something else). {For example, if you're into females, imagine one of your acquaintances paying you a visit while locked into a steel chastity belt (after having spent a day struggling to get out), because she knows you can cut her out with power tools. A fairly classic scenario.} With that in mind, I think this to be an improvement on the previous escape system - at least in case of messing around with the devices while not engaged in any quest/mod, which is exactly what DD in "standalone" mode should provide.

 

As a side note: devs, have you considered putting all sounds played from zadLibs under some kind of volume slider? Some of the samples are just being played at max, and it can get a lot louder than everything else.

 

Edit: @Princessity: Do you have a Cpl Smartass Award, too?

[naaitsab]

The struggling part is a bit hard for me to determine. As a realism perspective, (yeah the ye olde realism in game thing) most restraints are inescapable without a tool.

But to allow for a bit of gameplay less hardcore the struggling should be there.

 

I know this is a bit of a sensitive subject but a global setting to enable/disable a hardcore mode, so no struggling out of restraints without tools could be an option.

And with tools I mean a sharp item for leather (knife/sword), and lockpics for metal items. Arm immobilizers (yoke, straitjacket and armbinder) are inescapable in RL, so I would respect that.

 

 

As for struggling attempts without a hardcore mode I would go with something like this:

Armbinder: 10x

Handcuffs (front): 5x

Elbowbinder: 10x

Yoke: 15x

Breast Yoke 15x

Prisoner Chains: 7x

Straightjacket: 15x

 

Depending on the time between attempts of course. 15x with 1 hour cooldown between attempt is way to much.

Also a cooldown modifier based on stamina would be neat.

[LazyBoot]

 

 

 

• Added new struggle animations to all wrist restraints, replacing the old ZAP struggles

 

 

All the yokes I tried (heavy, steel, high security) used the old animations, not sure if that was intended. Boob yoke worked fine though with the new animation.

 

New animations look really good anyway. Rest of the wrist restraints worked with new animations.

 

 

Oh I forgot to mention: your old devices won't be retroactively updated. You need to throw them out and spawn new instances. Also make sure you are only using DDi or DDx devices, third party devices aren't updated yet.

 

 

This was a fresh save. Which yokes are DDi/DDx perhaps I picked the wrong one, although I don't think I've got any third party yokes installed unless maybe they were from the original ZAP or something.

 

I think the heavy, steel and high sec are from cursed loot.

[El_Duderino]

(...)

I know this is a bit of a sensitive subject but a global setting to enable/disable a hardcore mode, so no struggling out of restraints without tools could be an option.

And with tools I mean a sharp item for leather (knife/sword), and lockpics for metal items. Arm immobilizers (yoke, straitjacket and armbinder) are inescapable in RL, so I would respect that.

(...)

 

I very much like this idea. I too would very much welcome an MCM option to globally disallow any "non-tool-aided" escape attempts from non-quest restraints that immobilize the arms. I usually try to do that in a role-playing way anyway, but I find it more fun if the game enforces it. Then again, I have absolutely no idea how difficult it might be to implement this.

[Margaritka1988]

Just a small question - is it possible to change restraint lockpicking chances by a 3rd party mod? Was thinking about making some bridge to weather mod. Main idea is, that if you you are trying to pick the lock sitting during the day in your own house/room, it should be much easier, than to do the same thing when some night you are naked in a frozen wilderness, with your fingers hardly able to move... Possible variables affecting your chances can be - location, time of day, weather condition, how restricted are you (having blindfold on for example should make things harder too), maybe how hungry and aroused you are...

 

Thanks

 

 

[Content Consumer]

Just a small question - is it possible to change restraint lockpicking chances by a 3rd party mod? Was thinking about making some bridge to weather mod. Main idea is, that if you you are trying to pick the lock sitting during the day in your own house/room, it should be much easier, than to do the same thing when some night you are naked in a frozen wilderness, with your fingers hardly able to move... Possible variables affecting your chances can be - location, time of day, weather condition, how restricted are you (having blindfold on for example should make things harder too), maybe how hungry and aroused you are...

 

Thanks

 

Ooh, I second this request. Some sort of global modifier to lockpicking or escaping that can be modified by multiple other mods magic effects. Like speedmult, say.

 

EDIT: Then I could make, for example, a potion that temporarily boosts or damages your ability to get out of restraints.

Worried about looting that chest with DCL installed? Drink a potion of Escape Restraints Boostingness (title is WIP) before picking the lock, just in case.

[rjn]

I still don't care for the current escape menu choices.  For *every* escape attempt the user still needs to choose "Try to Escape" then "Try to Escape" again. before proceeding.  I still say that clicking a locked-on device in inventory already signifies the user's wish to escape that device. 

 

{I know this would eliminate the "Examine Device" option on the menu, but device details normally in the "examine" description can be placed in the escape description.  For instance, user clicks on equipped wrist cuffs in inventory and gets the message "You attempt to slip out of the heavy steel cuffs but they are fitted tightly on your wrists and you can't even get a finger on the locking mechanism." -- which both confirms your failure to escape and gives specific device information.} 

 

Also the current escape menu is generic and not dynamic -- that is, You get an "Unlock" choice every time even when you have no keys, and a "Pick Lock" choice even when you have no picks or the lock is inaccessible/jammed.

[Kimy]

 

(...)

I know this is a bit of a sensitive subject but a global setting to enable/disable a hardcore mode, so no struggling out of restraints without tools could be an option.

And with tools I mean a sharp item for leather (knife/sword), and lockpics for metal items. Arm immobilizers (yoke, straitjacket and armbinder) are inescapable in RL, so I would respect that.

(...)

 

I very much like this idea. I too would very much welcome an MCM option to globally disallow any "non-tool-aided" escape attempts from non-quest restraints that immobilize the arms. I usually try to do that in a role-playing way anyway, but I find it more fun if the game enforces it. Then again, I have absolutely no idea how difficult it might be to implement this.

 

 

I actually had code like this in place and the system supports it in principle. Then I thought about it and went "This is Skyrim. The place were even the waitresses are armed to the teeth. Is there ever anybody NOT carrying a blade?" So I just assumed that the player always has a blade anyway and disabled the check.

 

Btw. All metal restraints have a struggle and cut escape chance of zero, reflecting realism. The yoke can in principle be lockpicked, but it's neigh on impossible to reach the locks, so good luck with that.

 

Just a small question - is it possible to change restraint lockpicking chances by a 3rd party mod? Was thinking about making some bridge to weather mod. Main idea is, that if you you are trying to pick the lock sitting during the day in your own house/room, it should be much easier, than to do the same thing when some night you are naked in a frozen wilderness, with your fingers hardly able to move... Possible variables affecting your chances can be - location, time of day, weather condition, how restricted are you (having blindfold on for example should make things harder too), maybe how hungry and aroused you are...

 

Thanks

 

You can adjust escape settings for your own items in your own mods ONLY. The one exception is the global difficulty modifier, but that's meant for the -user- to customize their preference, not a means for 3rd party mods affect global difficulty. We deliberately did not include any way for content mods to affect other content mods' items.

 

I still don't care for the current escape menu choices.  For *every* escape attempt the user still needs to choose "Try to Escape" then "Try to Escape" again. before proceeding.  I still say that clicking a locked-on device in inventory already signifies the user's wish to escape that device.

 

I am aware of the redundancy, but I picked that particular setup not to break backwards compatibility with existing items. This way, the old dialogue (which are still around in content mods) will not call completely unrelated code.

 

Also the current escape menu is generic and not dynamic -- that is, You get an "Unlock" choice every time even when you have no keys, and a "Pick Lock" choice even when you have no picks or the lock is inaccessible/jammed.

 

The system supports different messages for every single item. We just haven't done so for the base library. It's a LOT of grunt work.

[Kimy]

As for the balancing discussion - what I am interested in for balancing is

- how long people feel should be the average time to escape a restraint in general

- should items largely reflect realism (e.g. in reality you won't ever escape a yoke without help AND having the key), or make compromises not to be overly punishing (e.g. allow unrealistic escape not to interrupt people's dungeon runs etc.), or something in between.

- do people prefer having make more attempts with shorter cooldowns, or rather have a longer cooldown between attempts in exchange for a higher chance per attempt.

[Bane Master]

As for the balancing discussion - what I am interested in for balancing is

- how long people feel should be the average time to escape a restraint in general

- should items largely reflect realism (e.g. in reality you won't ever escape a yoke without help AND having the key), or make compromises not to be overly punishing (e.g. allow unrealistic escape not to interrupt people's dungeon runs etc.), or something in between.

- do people prefer having make more attempts with shorter cooldowns, or rather have a longer cooldown between attempts in exchange for a higher chance per attempt.

 

Personally - better chance longer cooldown, but it's really a fundamental Play Style kinda thing so I suspect you'll only be able to please 50% of the people if the framework uses a fixed ratio.

[phate45]

As for the balancing discussion - what I am interested in for balancing is

- how long people feel should be the average time to escape a restraint in general

- should items largely reflect realism (e.g. in reality you won't ever escape a yoke without help AND having the key), or make compromises not to be overly punishing (e.g. allow unrealistic escape not to interrupt people's dungeon runs etc.), or something in between.

- do people prefer having make more attempts with shorter cooldowns, or rather have a longer cooldown between attempts in exchange for a higher chance per attempt.

 

Why not do it DCL style and just add a MCM menu page with all the options? The more the better was your motto last time i checked

[Kimy]

 

As for the balancing discussion - what I am interested in for balancing is

- how long people feel should be the average time to escape a restraint in general

- should items largely reflect realism (e.g. in reality you won't ever escape a yoke without help AND having the key), or make compromises not to be overly punishing (e.g. allow unrealistic escape not to interrupt people's dungeon runs etc.), or something in between.

- do people prefer having make more attempts with shorter cooldowns, or rather have a longer cooldown between attempts in exchange for a higher chance per attempt.

 

Why not do it DCL style and just add a MCM menu page with all the options? The more the better was your motto last time i checked

 

 

The difficulty modifier already affects escape settings. This is about the approach we should take for the design of standard items.

 

[Princessity]

New builds up on DDi and DDx repos, fixing some reported issues.

 

Changelog:

• Changed the installer version to 4.0.0
• Fixed installer priority errors in MO
• Updated BBYoke turning animations
• Reduced the scale of handcuff chains to better align with animations
• Fixed Steel Yoke's rendered device pointing to its inventory device instead
• Fixed Red Armbinder missing device type keyword in properties
• Fixed Black Ebonite Catsuit Ballet Boots, Socks and Transparent Catsuit High Heels footsteps sounds
• Fixed Yellow and Dark Grey Ebonite Catsuit Long Gloves textures
• Fixed Red and White Slave Harness ground object's textures
  

 
Updated Princess to-dos:

• Gather feedback on the new struggle animation length vs escape difficulty (in progress)
• Rework gag dialogue (conceptualisation finished, ready for implementation)
• Standardise AA application methods across hobble dresses and wrist restraints
• Add ebonite and colour Elbowbinder variants (pending ebonite-compatible mesh adjustment)
• Clean up instances of redundancy and overcomplicated interactions between the wrist restraints mechanics and the AA system (optional, optimisation and polishing phase)
  

[phate45]

 

 

The difficulty modifier already affects escape settings. This is about the approach we should take for the design of standard items.

 

 

 

That's what i meant, you have the difficulty modifier for escape settings, why not make the standard items more dynamic and have them configurable as well? Since you were asking about a specific struggle delay vs escape chance ratio, this sounds like a configurable slider right there ...

[Princessity]

 

 

 

The difficulty modifier already affects escape settings. This is about the approach we should take for the design of standard items.

 

 

 

That's what i meant, you have the difficulty modifier for escape settings, why not make the standard items more dynamic and have them configurable as well? Since you were asking about a specific struggle delay vs escape chance ratio, this sounds like a configurable slider right there ...

 

 

The difficulty options do affect that. What we're asking about is what people want for the default setting. We need a good baseline balance. Playing with MCM should be optional, not mandatory.

 

This survey also serves to help us calibrate the difficulty of different types of restraints relative to one another.

[Content Consumer]

We deliberately did not include any way for content mods to affect other content mods' items.

 

Well, when you put it like that, it sounds like a bad idea.

[El_Duderino]

 

 

The difficulty modifier already affects escape settings. This is about the approach we should take for the design of standard items.

 

I've been playing with numerous devices from the DDx and to some extent DDi library for a few days now, also moving the difficulty slider left and right and in the middle to get a feel for what it does... and after all that I'm very happy with the current settings as the defaults. With the slider at the hardest setting, struggling and escaping can be rather difficult and take a few game days if one is unlucky, at the easiest it's almost trivial to escape. And right out of the box, so to speak, the devices are nicely in the middle between the two extremes and the rest is up to the user and the difficulty slider. I honestly wouldn't change a thing on the defaults for the device escape chances, cooldowns and failures. Some of them seem harsh at first when looking at the values in Tes5Edit or the CK, but the difficulty slider is really quite effective and no harshness remains unless the user wants it to.

 

My 2c.

[Lozeak]

Considering wait between struggles

• Armbinder -  5 
• Handcuffs (front) -  5 
• Elbowbinder - 5  - but it takes longer to recover or +2 to avg.
• Yoke- 10
• Breast Yoke -  10
• Prisoner Chains - 10 (OR 5 but it gets converted into handcuffs and ankle chains)
• Straightjacket -  10 

Maybe not possible to do but if you have a harness on as well it makes Binders a little harder to escape from since they are attached to it.

 

Steel shackles - don't appear on the character, has something to do with the wrong model for the slot DD considers them armbinders the models think there cuff (I think)

[Richard1234]

Please note I haven't played the new DD yet, but for what it's worth:

 

As for the balancing discussion - what I am interested in for balancing is

- how long people feel should be the average time to escape a restraint in general

 

In general I prefer being able to get rid of restraints quite fast, though not immediately. For example in the old DD version I prefer to set the time shield to 2 hours. Escaping restraints faster means DCL traps can trigger more often

 

- should items largely reflect realism (e.g. in reality you won't ever escape a yoke without help AND having the key), or make compromises not to be overly punishing (e.g. allow unrealistic escape not to interrupt people's dungeon runs etc.), or something in between.

 

I prefer not to have my dungeon run interrupted in such a drastic way that I have to go back to town. Some struggling or looking for an escape on the spot is perfectly fine. For example in DCL I set the chance to find a sharp object to cut the armbinder to 30%, so that I can continue in the dungeon reasonably fast. On the other hand I never ask my follower to help me out of the armbinder, because that feels too easy.

 

- do people prefer having make more attempts with shorter cooldowns, or rather have a longer cooldown between attempts in exchange for a higher chance per attempt.

 

I think it matters if this cooldown is affected by the escape difficulty slider. If it is not affected, then I prefer having cooldowns somewhere on the short side. Not as short as the old DD armbinder escape mechanism, but also not 12 hours. Something like 2 hours, maybe 4?

 

 

[Lokikun]

I prefer being able to escape from everthing even if unrealistic. Having to run back to civilization for help is tedious after the 3rd time in a row it happens in the same play session.

I can deal with returning back for help once for about 2 hours of playing.

I like the ability to find escape methods or ways to escape in dungeon/wilderness. (Risk vs Reward mechanics)

 

In general 10 to 15 min of play time is more than enough when a armbinder/yoke/heavy bondage/ball gags/blindfolds devices are worn.

As soon as I get one of those I drop everthing and start pursuing a method of escape (So I prefer a short but good diversion in those cases)

I can put up with the heavy restraints for more time but in those cases I prefer having quests (Cursed Loot, cursed collar is a good example of a quest with good duration in my case).

 

For other devices it's about the same time but I normally proceeed playing and pursuing my current objective, so they stay for longer times.

Piercings and pumps can stay for really long times, since I like their design space in general.

I prefer shorter attempts with good escape chances for heavy bondage devices.  For the others a longer attempt with a good chance is ok.

 

The only effect I truly despise is the mittens drop item effect. So i'd like to be able to disable it. The no weapon/no spell/no equip is fun.

 

That is my opinion/preferences when I play with devious devices.

 

Extra Suggestions:

I'd like more added effects for pumps/piercings, similar to plugs we have today.

I'd like enchantments/effects that tempts the player to keep the item equiped and/or have them sacrifice keys for some "benefit", but I don't know if this should be added directly to the framework.

Can we have devices/effect that adds a single keyword filter to the animation selection, in order to direct for specific group of animations?

A consumable magic item that summon a helper that can use keys you have to unequip unreacheable locks in case you decide to go for realism on device unequipping.