Devious Devices Framework Development/Beta

[audhol]

20 minutes ago, naaitsab said:

Nice progress, just finding the open seams way out of place. Like it's ripped and broken

It was a design we came up with together in the kink shop thread, I wasnt sure at first but I kinda like it now, I think it gives more emphasis to the legs and arms. It accentuates the form of the female body giving it height whilst exposing a small inconcequential amount of skin. Combined with the cutouts for the nipples and nether regions I think it works aesthetically, providing a frame to highlight whats exposed whilst covering everything else.

[naaitsab]

30 minutes ago, audhol said:

It was a design we came up with together in the kink shop thread, I wasnt sure at first but I kinda like it now, I think it gives more emphasis to the legs and arms. It accentuates the form of the female body giving it height whilst exposing a small inconcequential amount of skin. Combined with the cutouts for the nipples and nether regions I think it works aesthetically, providing a frame to highlight whats exposed whilst covering everything else.

Maybe it's the very flimsy pieces of material holding it together. To me it gives it a vibe of fragile gothic clothing instead of a piece of restricting clothing. Widening the connecting pieces might give it another look.

With the beauty of ZAP buttons in bodyslide, the option to be able to either toggle the open parts on or off would be awesome. Then it's up to the user what they like ingame. Best of both worlds solution  

[audhol]

15 minutes ago, naaitsab said:

Maybe it's the very flimsy pieces of material holding it together. To me it gives it a vibe of fragile gothic clothing instead of a piece of restricting clothing. Widening the connecting pieces might give it another look.

To me the whole point is the aesthetic, already as DD users we suspend belief that our character cannot simply slip a blindfold over the head or despite having a +15 firebrand dagger of infinite return we cannot snip the strap of the harness off to escape. So flimsy is kinda a moot point for me as regards to DD models.

 

Having said all that I am not against adding a zap slider for the cutout parts although at some point it becomes indistinguisable from the existing catsuit model and thus negates the point of making an alternative right?

Edited November 19, 2022 by audhol

[naaitsab]

21 minutes ago, audhol said:

To me the whole point is the aesthetic, already as DD users we suspend belief that our character cannot simply slip a blindfold over the head or despite having a +15 firebrand dagger of infinite return we cannot snip the strap of the harness off to escape. So flimsy is kinda a moot point for me as regards to DD models.

 

Having said all that I am not against adding a zap slider for the cutout parts although at some point it becomes indistinguisable from the existing catsuit model and thus negates the point of making an alternative right?

Realism and esthetic are quite separate from each other. In a world like Skyrim no leather/ebonite restraint would ever work out as anybody carries a weapon to cut it. So that needs a certain level of "don't talk about that".

 

I do think the current look, paneling and "extras" make it stand out enough. Especially if it would be available in a leather variant. As currently only the catsuit lacks a leather version. But adding the option to "zap" the cutouts would get a big plus from my side either way. 

Edited November 19, 2022 by naaitsab

[Zaflis]

Just showing this elbowbinder bug with UUNP for LE, it's same with other armbinders. I have the latest DD beta and that is used in the "Learning the ropes" of DCL "Tight rope binding".

 

 

Also i kind of do know how to edit the NIF myself in outfit studio, have tried it once with earlier version. But it was hit and miss in the editing because i could not get a reference of arms in that pose. I just had to blindly move the vertices and test ingame to see if it fits or not.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Zaflis

[Xuvish]

Is beta 7 still the most recent beta?

[Taki17]

19 minutes ago, Xuvish said:

Is beta 7 still the most recent beta?

No.

[kapibar]

On 11/19/2022 at 8:56 PM, audhol said:

Having said all that I am not against adding a zap slider for the cutout parts although at some point it becomes indistinguisable from the existing catsuit model and thus negates the point of making an alternative right?

Considering what has been said in this thread, that the current catsuit is a relic from the Oblivion modding days, I think what DD needs is a replacement and not only an alternative. The current catsuit isn't at all modular, the texture quality is not that great and it sometimes "forgets" individual body settings (on a loaded game). So I believe with this design you shouldn't only aim for an alternative, but a full replacement.

[naaitsab]

5 hours ago, kapibar said:

Considering what has been said in this thread, that the current catsuit is a relic from the Oblivion modding days, I think what DD needs is a replacement and not only an alternative. The current catsuit isn't at all modular, the texture quality is not that great and it sometimes "forgets" individual body settings (on a loaded game). So I believe with this design you shouldn't only aim for an alternative, but a full replacement.

Yeah I found that out the hard way while trying to revamp the textures. It's really Oblivioneske. Especially the seems are very messed up.

 

But for a replacement it imho should also tick the boxes it currently does

-Full enclosure from ankle to wrist to neck. cutouts and "inserts" should be optional to the users liking.

-Fit under the 'overlay devices' (corset/cuffs/boots/belt but the latter might need a modification to the device hider to get working for modders)

-Fit the current black, red and white color scheme and if possible add a leather variant to fully "comply" (yes OCD  )

So that might require some more ZAP's but having a modular approach does make it a lot more versatile. Might also finally make it possible to change from the "unaboob" mesh to one that is more realistic and maybe even fit underneath a chastity bra? For some reason the SE conversion does have it 'normal' but the LE is stil the old one.

[zarantha]

18 minutes ago, naaitsab said:

or some reason the SE conversion does have it 'normal' but the LE is stil the old one.

 

That's only because I didn't understand what uniboob was for lol. I just conformed and weighted to the naked reference body when i converted.

I was thinking of converting somethings over to uniboob in the future, but not in a rush to do so.

[kapibar]

23 minutes ago, naaitsab said:

Yeah I found that out the hard way while trying to revamp the textures. It's really Oblivioneske. Especially the seems are very messed up.

The whole design is messed up IMHO. The gloves and socks are very much useless without the whole set (excluding long gloves), which is a shame because I for one am a fan of latex stockings. Uniboob can be scaled down only to some extent and gets messed up when the character has small breasts (IRL catsuits complement women with smaller breasts). The texture quality... less said about it the better. Overall I think at this point even a not-fully-closed design is superior to what we have.

[audhol]

You guys have to be aware that my mesh has a lot more vertices than the current DD catsuit. I appreciate that a lot of users are still playing skyrim LE and want fully optimised meshes which is why I dont see my catsuit as a replacement, its more of an alternative. I'm happy to listen to suggestions up to a point but it remains my desicion as to what I make regarding both the meshes and textures. If @Kimy wants to include the catsuit into DD then great just like for the lips muzzle gag but I will not "change" anything simply to appease the wishes of others.

 

Its me that spends the time joining all those little dots up to make vertices to make a model and whilst I dont pretend to be an expert modeller I know what I am doing and I make what I want rather than trying to please someone that has no idea how moddeling works. Been There Done That.

 

 

1 hour ago, zarantha said:

I was thinking of converting somethings over to uniboob in the future, but not in a rush to do so.

Getting the uniboob reference to apply is the biggest pain in the arse, from what I remember you need to make a conversion reference before trying to link the sliders to that body.

[Taki17]

I've found yet some more things to address in DD, so I'm back with another entry in the series of small DD fixes. This time, it's a two-parter, with one half addressing issues related to plugs, and the other taking care of some oddities around rope restraints.

• Up until now, upon interacting with plugs in the inventory, they showed both the "take it out" and "put it in" messages, regardless of if they were worn or not. I have managed to change this by introducing a new message for anal plugs with proper checks to if a plug of the appropriate type is worn.
• In other words, if an anal plug is inside the player, interacting with it will only show the "take it out" option. Likewise, if it's not equipped, it'll only show the "put it in" option. Same for vaginal plugs, but it was achieved by adding conditions to the original message.

IMPORTANT: due to how it required a new record for the new message, but it affects plugs in multiple plugins, I have only included the changes to anal plugs in the DD Integration master file, to facilitate the merge without adding my own plugin as a master to the other. As for anal plugs in DD Expansion, the message in their script properties needs to be manually changed to "zad_plugsAnMsg" after my contribution here was merged to Integration.

 

Plugs in DDx that need the new message added to their zad_DeviceMsg property:

zadx_plugGreaterSoulgemAnInventory

zadx_plugGrandSoulgemAnInventory

zadx_plugBlackSoulgemAnInventory

zadx_plugFilledSoulgemAnInventory

zadx_plugShockSoulgemAnInventory

zadx_HR_PlugPonyTail01Inventory

zadx_HR_PlugPonyTail02Inventory

zadx_HR_PlugPonyTail02BowInventory

zadx_HR_PlugPonyTail03BowInventory

• Added black, red and white versions of all rope restraints that were missing them. Preview:

Spoiler

• Adjusted device messages for rope restraints, so now rope gags, blindfolds, armbinders and harnesses will all be properly referred to as such, and there will be no more mention of keys where they aren't applicable. "Unlock" options were changed to "Untie", and "Lock" options were changed to "Tie", consistently accross all rope restraint items.
• Found an unused rope harness model in the files which I quite liked, so I created the items for it, in all four colors. Preview:

Spoiler

• Updated and expanded the leveled lists with all the new restraint items and color variants.
• Also some general leveled list maintenance with organizing misplaced items into their proper lists (moving rope elbowbinders into the rope elbowbinders list instead of having them among the rope armbinders, for example).
• Added the full body rope restraints (behaves like a hobble dress) to the new zad_dev_suits_hobbledresses_rope leveled list. Nested it inside the zad_dev_suits_hobbledresses leveled list.
• The previously unused and empty zad_dev_blindfolds_cloth leveled list was renamed to zad_dev_blindfolds_rope to hold all the rope blindfold variants.
• A few small message and description corrections as well.

even more small DD fixes for beta 9.7z

 

Previously for DD5.2 beta 9, I have also contributed these fixes, regarding the corsets and a few other things:

Edited November 21, 2022 by Taki17

[Zaflis]

1 hour ago, audhol said:

Its me that spends the time joining all those little dots up to make vertices to make a model and whilst I dont pretend to be an expert modeller I know what I am doing and I make what I want rather than trying to please someone that has no idea how moddeling works. Been There Done That.

Making models low-poly versions is not something a modeller does by hand, it's always some kind of tool either built in the software or as a plugin or script. It is actually decades old knowledge that most modelling software should support some way. If one doesn't, then those models are usually transferrable back and forth between software that can.

[naaitsab]

3 hours ago, zarantha said:

 

That's only because I didn't understand what uniboob was for lol. I just conformed and weighted to the naked reference body when i converted.

I was thinking of converting somethings over to uniboob in the future, but not in a rush to do so.

To be honest I like the SE style a lot more. All proper fitting catsuits look like that in real life. Up until a certain realistic cup size of course.

 

30 minutes ago, audhol said:

You guys have to be aware that my mesh has a lot more vertices than the current DD catsuit. I appreciate that a lot of users are still playing skyrim LE and want fully optimised meshes which is why I dont see my catsuit as a replacement, its more of an alternative. I'm happy to listen to suggestions up to a point but it remains my desicion as to what I make regarding both the meshes and textures. If @Kimy wants to include the catsuit into DD then great just like for the lips muzzle gag but I will not "change" anything simply to appease the wishes of others.

 

Its me that spends the time joining all those little dots up to make vertices to make a model and whilst I dont pretend to be an expert modeller I know what I am doing and I make what I want rather than trying to please someone that has no idea how moddeling works. Been There Done That.

 

 

Getting the uniboob reference to apply is the biggest pain in the arse, from what I remember you need to make a conversion reference before trying to link the sliders to that body.

It highly depends on what the goal is. If it's a replacer to fix the "2006 mesh" situation it should be (roughly) equal in style but better textured and in this case more vertices at certain parts. I think this option will cause quite a lot of unnecessary commotion and drama if the current design is used unchanged. If the goal is to make an "extreme suit" that is something new then it's that, something new. Then it's up to Kimy to decide if it's added and more important the modders to decide if they want to implement it at all. But for some type/style of devices it might be better for modders to release it as a resource and let modders bundle it for a specific mod if they want to. A bit like you do now with your thread about the suit and piercings. Or if you fancy make your own mod around it like you see fit (I highly recommend this option, it's fun). A bit like the Rubber Facility does with the Doll suit. It does not make the doll suit bad in any way or form it's just in a style very different of the rest of DD. In this specific example your suit could be a prime candidate for DCUR's rubber doll quest. As the idea behind the quest is to be extreme and flashy so fancy colors and inserts etc would fit that nicely.

 

 

44 minutes ago, Taki17 said:

I've found yet some more things to address in DD, so I'm back with another entry in the series of small DD fixes. This time, it's a two-parter, with one half addressing issues related to plugs, and the other taking care of some oddities around rope restraints.

• Up until now, upon interacting with plugs in the inventory, they showed both the "take it out" and "put it in" messages, regardless of if they were worn or not. I have managed to change this by introducing a new message for anal plugs with proper checks to if a plug of the appropriate type is worn.
• In other words, if an anal plug is inside the player, interacting with it will only show the "take it out" option. Likewise, if it's not equipped, it'll only show the "put it in" option. Same for vaginal plugs, but it was achieved by adding conditions to the original message.

IMPORTANT: due to how it required a new record for the new message, but it affects plugs in multiple plugins, I have only included the changes to anal plugs in the DD Integration master file, to facilitate the merge without adding my own plugin as a master to the other. As for anal plugs in DD Expansion, the message in their script properties needs to be manually changed to "zad_plugsAnMsg" after my contribution here was merged to Integration.

Nice changelog again  Would the plug message change work or fall back to the old "broken" one if the script/message is not updated? The current issue with the plug message is in DD for quite some time. If I recall correctly it was one of the consequences to keep the new system working with mods that are not updated to DD5.

I had a brainstorm about it a week or 2 back but most idea's I had like adding quest variables to the message are not backwards compatible and will cause issues with non-player interactions. So I kinda gave up on it.

[serranna]

1 hour ago, Taki17 said:

Added the full body rope restraints (behaves like a hobble dress) to the new zad_dev_suits_hobbledresses_rope leveled list. Nested it inside the zad_dev_suits_hobbledresses leveled list.

 

This reminds me of a minor issue I noticed with the full body rope restraint. Not sure if it's intended or not but your unlock/untie chances always seem to be 100% regardless of your difficulty setting.

I play on born slave difficulty in regards to device escape options and every other rope item has a chance that you fail in your attempt to untie/unlock the restraint with the message that you were unable to reach the locking mechanism. I have never failed to remove the full body rope restraint every time I attempted to do so.

[Taki17]

1 hour ago, naaitsab said:

Would the plug message change work or fall back to the old "broken" one if the script/message is not updated?

The way I implemented it would require every mod that uses custom anal plugs to update them to include the new message for their respective script property, if they are meant to be equipped and removed by hand, and not only by scripts. I guess that bodes ill for backwards compatibility, hence the separate plugin. Though I do wonder if we'll ever get to a cut off point where mods that go unupdated for half a decade will stop to be accomodated as such.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Taki17

[Taki17]

24 minutes ago, serranna said:

 

This reminds me of a minor issue I noticed with the full body rope restraint. Not sure if it's intended or not but your unlock/untie chances always seem to be 100% regardless of your difficulty setting.

I play on born slave difficulty in regards to device escape options and every other rope item has a chance that you fail in your attempt to untie/unlock the restraint with the message that you were unable to reach the locking mechanism. I have never failed to remove the full body rope restraint every time I attempted to do so.

So far the only thing I was able to find regarding this is that full body rope restraints have more than 1.5 times higher base escape chance in their properties, compared to hobble dresses. Might look into it further.

[audhol]

13 hours ago, naaitsab said:

-Full enclosure from ankle to wrist to neck. cutouts and "inserts" should be optional to the users liking.

-Fit under the 'overlay devices' (corset/cuffs/boots/belt but the latter might need a modification to the device hider to get working for modders)

-Fit the current black, red and white color scheme and if possible add a leather variant to fully "comply" (yes OCD  )

 

9 hours ago, naaitsab said:

(roughly) equal in style but better textured and in this case more vertices at certain parts

 

 

Happy Christmas

 

 

Spoiler

 

[naaitsab]

21 hours ago, Taki17 said:

The way I implemented it would require every mod that uses custom anal plugs to update them to include the new message for their respective script property, if they are meant to be equipped and removed by hand, and not only by scripts. I guess that bodes ill for backwards compatibility, hence the separate plugin. Though I do wonder if we'll ever get to a cut off point where mods that go unupdated for half a decade will stop to be accomodated as such.

I think at some point it should be put on the table how far (and long) the backwards compatibility goes. There are sadly not that many story based DD mods still around. And mods like 'Angrim's Apprentice' as an example can be very easily made to work with DD5.  And only fixing DD4 -> DD5 and uploading that as a patch won't hurt anyone so I don't think there would be any objections. Especially if it's abandonware. Bigger mods like 'Trapped in Rubber' will need more work. But at some point if backwards compatibility hurts progress it reaches a tipping point to determine which is more important. 

 

Currently I'm migrating the original Devious Deviants to DD5 with some modifications. If I where to only make it DD5 compatible I guess it's about an hour work tops. What would be a cool way to proceed is to catalogue all available but old DD mods on LL in a new thread and make a plan to upgrade them to DD5. 

When that's done the backwards compatibility can be ditched all together. And adding a keyword to a couple of plugs for example takes a few clicks to add it in the patches.

 

12 hours ago, audhol said:

 

 

 

Happy Christmas

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Nice work ? And it's also in leather   Did you mange to get the nipple openings and cutouts etc ZAP's working? 

Edited November 22, 2022 by naaitsab

[audhol]

3 hours ago, naaitsab said:

Did you mange to get the nipple openings and cutouts etc ZAP's working? 

Having given it some thought I dont believe Zap sliders are suitable for inclusion into DD. No current DD items use this, here is a post I made earlier describing how I intend to set up the texture files.

 

So you can see that this flexibility gives modders the chance to remove any part of the nif they deem necersary after all the DD framework is simply that, A framework that doesnt do much on its own without third party mods. 

 

I personally will probably release the catsuit as an addon with the four colours for each of the three nifs, (ebonite,trans ebonite and leather) then if a mod author would like some custom texture I'm happy to provide that for example like the advertising catsuit thats part of the dollmakers quest in DCL.

 

The premise for me making a DD catsuit was for it to provide greater flexibility in bodyslide, not clip with any existing DD's (to be fair there is a slight compromise because the harness and corset do not follow the same body shape so to avoid clipping with both is impossible but I have taken a line somewhere between the 2) and be a base model with flexibility for modders to apply what they feel necersary.

 

Zap sliders are for end users to customise there model for their individual game. blocking the nipples would require the item hidder to still be needed when piercings are equiped which I find rediculous and a catsuit is not a chastity item so the lady holes should not be blocked as standard meaning that if the user chooses to block the openings then a SL scene triggers it breaks immersion.

 

IMO it should not be for the user to decide the attributes of the catsuit, it is down to the modder to provide a model that fits into their vision of what it is intended for.

[naaitsab]

35 minutes ago, audhol said:

 

IMO it should not be for the user to decide the attributes of the catsuit, it is down to the modder to provide a model that fits into their vision of what it is intended for.

 

That would be the best option, I agree. For example if you don't have the nipple covers off and the quest line is "they grab your nipples protruding trough the opening" is a bit of a fail  

Interested to see it when it's done.

Edited November 22, 2022 by naaitsab

[slvsaris]

4 hours ago, naaitsab said:

I think at some point it should be put on the table how far (and long) the backwards compatibility goes. There are sadly not that many story based DD mods still around. And mods like 'Angrim's Apprentice' as an example can be very easily made to work with DD5.  And only fixing DD4 -> DD5 and uploading that as a patch won't hurt anyone so I don't think there would be any objections. Especially if it's abandonware. Bigger mods like 'Trapped in Rubber' will need more work. But at some point if backwards compatibility hurts progress it reaches a tipping point to determine which is more important. 

 

Currently I'm migrating the original Devious Deviants to DD5 with some modifications. If I where to only make it DD5 compatible I guess it's about an hour work tops. What would be a cool way to proceed is to catalogue all available but old DD mods on LL in a new thread and make a plan to upgrade them to DD5. 

When that's done the backwards compatibility can be ditched all together. And adding a keyword to a couple of plugs for example takes a few clicks to add it in the patches.

 

Nice work ? And it's also in leather   Did you mange to get the nipple openings and cutouts etc ZAP's working? 

there is this:

 

[serranna]

On 11/21/2022 at 3:21 PM, Taki17 said:

So far the only thing I was able to find regarding this is that full body rope restraints have more than 1.5 times higher base escape chance in their properties, compared to hobble dresses. Might look into it further.

 

Brief video below demonstrating what I'm talking about. The video begins showing that born slave difficulty is active, then applying 3 rope restraint devices, failing to remove the first 2 then repeatedly applying and successfully removing the body restraint with no failures.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

[zarantha]

4 hours ago, audhol said:

Having given it some thought I dont believe Zap sliders are suitable for inclusion into DD. No current DD items use this, here is a post I made earlier describing how I intend to set up the texture files.

 

Not quite true for SE. There are some zaps used now, although it was mostly to combine some variants into a single file (all the straitjacket stuff for example) to save space rather than customizing them. I've also done a zap for the transparent catsuit to get rid of the zips. Just saying