Devious Devices Framework Development/Beta

[ETSubmariner]

4 hours ago, serranna said:

 

Assuming you're using SE/AE then don't waste your time asking in the ZAP thread. The most recent ZAP version available to SE (Version ? has that problem with no known solution. It's an SE conversion issue.

 

Someone else parsed a .nif file from a crash log I posted in their Discord, data\MESHES\ZaZ-UltimateDataPack\ZaZ - Accessories\Restraints\02ZAZ - IronShackles\HandCuffsIron_go.nif. I renamed that one to old, then copied a similar one and gave it that name. I no longer have that crash, nif problem solved good enough. Don't really care there are two black restraints, can't see them that well anyway.

[hungvipbcsok]

On 11/29/2022 at 1:08 AM, Reflect0707 said:

Hi ! Having an issue wtih current SE version, for some reason the chest part of my body model dissapear when i equip corset, rope corset and harness. I think i'm doing everything fine with bodyslide since other devices work as intended but i really can't find what's causing this ><. Any ideas ? (tried both 3ba and normal CBBE with same results)

 

I have 1 question, did you use the import/export mcm setting with different version of DD beta?.

I had this random invis problem like this before when I use export from beta 4 and import into beta 5

[EldrichMosquito]

@zarantha 

As I said, I have been building a modding profile for the tiefling mod. im going to run these slides rn and then load up the game and use additemmenu to get them, so as to check their usefulness. THANK YOU VERY MUCH for the effort, even if the things are broken, i still appreciate the effort (i really hope they are not broken).

[ChandraArgentis]

On 11/3/2022 at 10:52 AM, Kimy said:

 

The MCM controls for this got removed a looooong time ago, and replaced by script properties. This gives the device creator control over how the timer behaves, so the devices functions reliably, as designed and imagined by its creator.

This brings to mind a feature request.  

 

Currently when equipping an item you get two options: Lock it on and Manipulate locks.  Perhaps adding a timed lock could be a fun addition?  Mechanically, it could work the same as some of the DCL gear that gets equipped on you with a timer set so you can't use a key on it right off.  After the timer, it would auto-unlock as if you'd manipulated it.  You could also add in a MCM option for this auto-unlock to occasionally fail (percent chance).

 

  

On 11/2/2022 at 6:03 PM, serranna said:

Just curious. Could this same method be used if I wanted to stop cursed loot from equipping a specific item, like the breast yoke for example? (Yes I dislike that item). Just by deleting the item from the list?

If so I'll have to try and figure out how to do that.

My biggest complaint about it is how it ignores the values for a character's bust size.  If you have large bust, it shrinks you down to 'normal' whenever worn.

Edited November 30, 2022 by ChandraArgentis

[EldrichMosquito]

@zaranthaGood news! the gloves sliders work great!
Bad news! Check out the weird thing happening to the neck pole-thingy on the collar, and where is the corset?

 

(I REALLY HOPE THE SPOILER TAGS WORK) 

And yes i have run the corset and collar though bodyslide a FEW times.

Edited November 30, 2022 by TittsandWit
Left stuff out (MB)

[EldrichMosquito]

After the fourth edit, i made the spoiler tags work right. cool.

[zarantha]

7 minutes ago, TittsandWit said:

@zaranthaGood news! the gloves sliders work great!
Bad news! Check out the weird thing happening to the neck pole-thingy on the collar, and where is the corset?

 

  Hide contents

 

(I REALLY HOPE THE SPOILER TAGS WORK) 

And yes i have run the corset and collar though bodyslide a FEW times.

 

The neck pole thing might be a weight issue. Looking.

I don't know what happened to your corset. Could you try building just that one item?
It should go to \meshes\devious\expansion\EbRestrictiveCorset_Transparent_1.nif

Spoiler

 

 

 

[Reflect0707]

10 hours ago, hungvipbcsok said:

I have 1 question, did you use the import/export mcm setting with different version of DD beta?.

I had this random invis problem like this before when I use export from beta 4 and import into beta 5

Nop i directly installed the beta 5 version, but i found the issue on my side which was Modular Clothing system and after removing it it's all fine !

[zarantha]

@TittsandWit

 

Neck pole thing was a weight issue. try this:

 

DD 5.2 beta 3BA Bodyslides v0.8b.7z

[thedarkone1234]

Just a request since the final update is going to be huge and this thread is even huger: would it be possible to include the ID mapping of the overides for gagged expression (formely DD_expressions which got merged in beta 5 or 6, I think) in the main download page in a spoiler tag? If the only way to find them would be in this thread it would be quite a bothersome thing to do, and many people won't even get to know about the feature XD

[Interstellaris]

Hello there.

I have an issue with all devices with chains. I installed clear version of Skyrim AE from Steam and then installed DD's requirements, DD SE beta 9, Unofficial Skyrim Special Edition Patch and Alternative Start. Then i run FNIS and bodyslide.

Chains have physics, but it's acting oddly. Fetters chains are not connected to each other and some of their parts are hanging in the air near cuffs. Long chain collar clipping through body but still dragging on the floor and e.t.c.

Also: if I put some devices(for example fetters) on character, save game and exit game, and then reload game, then chains will be normal, but only until I take off device. If I put it back chains become disconnected again. Reloading game not help with all devices, for example prisoner chains; they always tremble intensely(cannot be visible on 2nd screenshots, but in game it look very glitchy)

I hope my explanation is clear enough. I rarely had to write on English.

Spoiler

Papyrus.0.log

Edited December 1, 2022 by Interstellaris

[Mexicola88]

10 minutes ago, Interstellaris said:

Hello there.

I have an issue with all devices with chains. I installed clear version of Skyrim AE from Steam and then installed DD's requirements, DD SE beta 9, Unofficial Skyrim Special Edition Patch and Alternative Start. Then i run FNIS and bodyslide.

Chains have physics, but it's acting oddly. Fetters chains are not connected to each other and some of their parts are hanging in the air near cuffs. Long chain collar clipping through body but still dragging on the floor and e.t.c.

Also: if I put some devices(for example fetters) on character, save game and exit game, and then reload game, then chains will be normal, but only until I take off device. If I put it back chains become disconnected again. Reloading game not help with all devices, for example prisoner chains; they always tremble intensely(cannot be visible on 2nd screenshots, but in game it look very glitchy)

I hope my explanation is clear enough. I rarely had to write on English.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

Papyrus.0.log 70.36 kB · 0 downloads

This is normal, it never worked right in SE/AE, it works halfway good in LE, but yeah not in SE/AE. You could report this a 1000 times, it wouldn't change a thing.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Mexicola88

[zarantha]

3 hours ago, Interstellaris said:

Hello there.

I have an issue with all devices with chains. I installed clear version of Skyrim AE from Steam and then installed DD's requirements, DD SE beta 9, Unofficial Skyrim Special Edition Patch and Alternative Start. Then i run FNIS and bodyslide.

Chains have physics, but it's acting oddly. Fetters chains are not connected to each other and some of their parts are hanging in the air near cuffs. Long chain collar clipping through body but still dragging on the floor and e.t.c.

Also: if I put some devices(for example fetters) on character, save game and exit game, and then reload game, then chains will be normal, but only until I take off device. If I put it back chains become disconnected again. Reloading game not help with all devices, for example prisoner chains; they always tremble intensely(cannot be visible on 2nd screenshots, but in game it look very glitchy)

I hope my explanation is clear enough. I rarely had to write on English.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

Papyrus.0.log 70.36 kB · 0 downloads

 

As mexicola said, that is normal for HDT chains in SE or AE. If it bothers you, there are no HDT versions (chains have been removed) for the more problematic ones. You can build the no HDT versions in bodyslide.

 

The bug has been brought up with the Faster SMP team, they have the 'working' and not working examples but have not yet found a solution. For now what you see is the best you can get.

[Zaflis]

3 hours ago, zarantha said:

The bug has been brought up with the Faster SMP team, they have the 'working' and not working examples but have not yet found a solution. For now what you see is the best you can get.

It depends, are the chains really made the best way they can be made? Are they actual torus shape chain links or what they should be - just linear bones connected together like a rope? Hollow objects have always been a pain to simulate with any physics engine, almost no game implements them like that.

 

Oh there is a 3rd even worse way, that they are just plain polygons/triangles colliding ?

Edited December 2, 2022 by Zaflis

[zarantha]

4 minutes ago, Zaflis said:

It depends, are the chains really made the best way they can be made? Are they actual torus shape chain links or what they should be - just linear bones connected together like a rope? Hollow objects have always been a pain to simulate with any physics engine, almost no game implements them like that.

 

Oh there is a 3rd even worse way, that they are just plain polygons/triangles colliding ?

 

Eh, I'm not the modeler. If someone else wants to step up and try to remake them, that's fine with me. But the FSMP team has looked at this and they aren't treating it as a mesh or configuration problem, but as an actual SMP issue.

Spoiler

the last bit of conversation after explaining how to reproduce the issue:

 

They look like 3d objects to me. There are multiple custom bones, but not one bone per chain link.

Spoiler

 

the chain, minus textures cause i'm lazy

 

and the bone is around 2 links here. sometimes it's a few more links but this is average.

 

But how the mesh is constructed is not the problem.

The problem chains have two or more points of connection each. This is the issue. SMP itself does not handle this well. A single connection point is fine. Connecting something on two ends is not.

 

Our first example is the ankle chains. they actually have one connection to the ankle and a second connection to the other half of the chain. So the ankle chain is in reality two chains connecting together to form one chain. And oddly enough, this works ONLY for the ankle chains. IF you exit the game entirely and then relaunch it, they will be working perfectly until the next time they are unequipped and reequipped.

 

The next example is the neck chains, the ball and chains, and the tail plugs. These all have a single point of connection, and the chain physics are decent. I suppose the xmls could be tweaked a bit more to make it look more natural, but I simply don't know what every option does so it's all experimentation for me. Adding in collision armor hasn't helped the clipping, if the player moves too quickly or in certain ways it will clip. I see this all the time with SMP hair as well and don't really consider this a bug bug, just a normal skyrim being skyrim bug. While the collision mesh helps, it does not completely prevent clipping through the body. I may revisit this and try a different collision mesh at some point, just to see if the results are any different.

 

So those two examples are our working devices.

 

Prisoner and wrist chains are where the real problem lies. They have multiple points of connection to the body and within the device themselves, and don't heal/snap together after a game reload like the ankle chains. The nif looks fine, but once in game, the pieces do not connect together. I and a few others have edited the nifs to get them in approximately the right places, but again, we aren't modelers. These are technically working, in that each piece has working physics and moves appropriately, but because they don't connect, they are basically broken. And by technically working I mean that each piece of chain bends, stretches, or falls as needed along the 4 to 6 bones for that section. And all of this  is why I say it's not the mesh.  The brokenness comes from where a connection point is defined in the xml as a constraint, but in game it does not physically connect to the other chain segment or the static bones in then cuffs. And this happens even when the xml is written the same for all 3 use cases. I have two working cases where I've written the xmls correctly, and I did the same thing for the broken cases, so it's not the xmls either even if they could be tweaked more. This leaves an SMP issue.

 

Also, I have been asking for help with these blasted things for years, but no one wants to step up and help. So what you get is my conversion with the xmls I wrote from scratch to get them going on SE. I'm more than willing to include any files if someone can do better, but no one else has even tried. All anyone does is complain. You want to try? Go for it. I'll get you all the files for the chains so you don't need to download the SE version of the mod and you can read the xmls yourself and look at the nifs directly. You could even just look at the LE version of the nifs if all you want to do is check how the chains are constructed. the only difference besides the ni shapes to bs shapes conversion for SE is that we changed the nistringSextradata to nistringextradata and pointed it to the smp xmls.

[Prime66]

Hey there, 
Not sure if it has been reported yet, but the Slots on the Boots seem to be wrongly set up. I did some quick testing cause I had a similar Issue in my mod once, the solution was to remove the Calves Slot from the suit (Rendered only) and add it to the Boots (Addon and Rendered)

 

Spoiler

Before edit:

Don't mind the gap that lets you stare into the void ?

 

After edit: 

 

[zarantha]

2 hours ago, Prime66 said:

Hey there, 
Not sure if it has been reported yet, but the Slots on the Boots seem to be wrongly set up. I did some quick testing cause I had a similar Issue in my mod once, the solution was to remove the Calves Slot from the suit (Rendered only) and add it to the Boots (Addon and Rendered)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Before edit:

Don't mind the gap that lets you stare into the void ?

 

After edit: 

 

 

If you're SE, i've adjusted the priority so the catsuit doesn't take priority over the boots. could try that.

https://www.loverslab.com/topic/69936-devious-devices-framework-developmentbeta/?do=findComment&comment=3932747

 

[Zaflis]

How does the petsuit animation get selected in regards to what other devices are worn? I think it should have the highest priority of appearance, but that is not the case at least with Unforgiving Devices mod. This character has arm cuffs, catsuit and gloves but none of them are locked behind as "heavy bondage" state. Still it's not going crawling.

 

Spoiler

 

Actually it could be tied leg cuffs that are preventing the petsuit animation.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Zaflis

[Prime66]

19 hours ago, zarantha said:

 

If you're SE, i've adjusted the priority so the catsuit doesn't take priority over the boots. could try that.

https://www.loverslab.com/topic/69936-devious-devices-framework-developmentbeta/?do=findComment&comment=3932747

 

 

Thanks for the Tip. 

I use LE so unfortunately I can't try what you made. But I am taking another look right now and it looks like the Boots already have a higher priority than the suit. Boots are 20 and the suit is priority 5

[zarantha]

On 12/3/2022 at 2:57 AM, Prime66 said:

 

Thanks for the Tip. 

I use LE so unfortunately I can't try what you made. But I am taking another look right now and it looks like the Boots already have a higher priority than the suit. Boots are 20 and the suit is priority 5

 

Are you using DD for Him as well? I've found it changing the priorities of several things. make sure it's loaded when you check if you use it.

[Leoosp]

On 12/2/2022 at 8:26 AM, zarantha said:

 

Eh, I'm not the modeler. If someone else wants to step up and try to remake them, that's fine with me. But the FSMP team has looked at this and they aren't treating it as a mesh or configuration problem, but as an actual SMP issue.

  Reveal hidden contents

the last bit of conversation after explaining how to reproduce the issue:

 

They look like 3d objects to me. There are multiple custom bones, but not one bone per chain link.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

the chain, minus textures cause i'm lazy

 

and the bone is around 2 links here. sometimes it's a few more links but this is average.

 

But how the mesh is constructed is not the problem.

The problem chains have two or more points of connection each. This is the issue. SMP itself does not handle this well. A single connection point is fine. Connecting something on two ends is not.

 

Our first example is the ankle chains. they actually have one connection to the ankle and a second connection to the other half of the chain. So the ankle chain is in reality two chains connecting together to form one chain. And oddly enough, this works ONLY for the ankle chains. IF you exit the game entirely and then relaunch it, they will be working perfectly until the next time they are unequipped and reequipped.

 

The next example is the neck chains, the ball and chains, and the tail plugs. These all have a single point of connection, and the chain physics are decent. I suppose the xmls could be tweaked a bit more to make it look more natural, but I simply don't know what every option does so it's all experimentation for me. Adding in collision armor hasn't helped the clipping, if the player moves too quickly or in certain ways it will clip. I see this all the time with SMP hair as well and don't really consider this a bug bug, just a normal skyrim being skyrim bug. While the collision mesh helps, it does not completely prevent clipping through the body. I may revisit this and try a different collision mesh at some point, just to see if the results are any different.

 

So those two examples are our working devices.

 

Prisoner and wrist chains are where the real problem lies. They have multiple points of connection to the body and within the device themselves, and don't heal/snap together after a game reload like the ankle chains. The nif looks fine, but once in game, the pieces do not connect together. I and a few others have edited the nifs to get them in approximately the right places, but again, we aren't modelers. These are technically working, in that each piece has working physics and moves appropriately, but because they don't connect, they are basically broken. And by technically working I mean that each piece of chain bends, stretches, or falls as needed along the 4 to 6 bones for that section. And all of this  is why I say it's not the mesh.  The brokenness comes from where a connection point is defined in the xml as a constraint, but in game it does not physically connect to the other chain segment or the static bones in then cuffs. And this happens even when the xml is written the same for all 3 use cases. I have two working cases where I've written the xmls correctly, and I did the same thing for the broken cases, so it's not the xmls either even if they could be tweaked more. This leaves an SMP issue.

 

Also, I have been asking for help with these blasted things for years, but no one wants to step up and help. So what you get is my conversion with the xmls I wrote from scratch to get them going on SE. I'm more than willing to include any files if someone can do better, but no one else has even tried. All anyone does is complain. You want to try? Go for it. I'll get you all the files for the chains so you don't need to download the SE version of the mod and you can read the xmls yourself and look at the nifs directly. You could even just look at the LE version of the nifs if all you want to do is check how the chains are constructed. the only difference besides the ni shapes to bs shapes conversion for SE is that we changed the nistringSextradata to nistringextradata and pointed it to the smp xmls.

 

@zarantha I seem to have found documentation on at least some of the parameters of HDT-SMP xml files for the item's physics definitions (A Guide to HDT-SMP Users/Modders - Skyrim Mod Talk - The Nexus Forums (nexusmods.com)). In addition, may be worth backing up and trying FSMP - Faster HDT-SMP based HDT-SMP a much better version of SMP than aers's release. It is optimised to be much faster and is still in active development with releases. Also, with the most up to date release has a newer version of Bullet physics in this case it's utilising 3.24.

Edited December 4, 2022 by Leoosp

[zarantha]

12 hours ago, Leoosp said:

 

@zarantha I seem to have found documentation on at least some of the parameters of HDT-SMP xml files for the item's physics definitions (A Guide to HDT-SMP Users/Modders - Skyrim Mod Talk - The Nexus Forums (nexusmods.com)). In addition, may be worth backing up and trying FSMP - Faster HDT-SMP based HDT-SMP a much better version of SMP than aers's release. It is optimised to be much faster and is still in active development with releases. Also, with the most up to date release has a newer version of Bullet physics in this case it's utilising 3.24.

 

I'm using FSMP already, and talked with the FSMP devs about this bug. That's what the discord snippet was.

 

That thread was one of several things I used long ago to convert the chains from HDT PE to HDT SMP.  I haven't kept up with it, but I'm aware of it. It doesn't address why the chains look broken even when they have physics. That thread is about controlling the physics.

[Leoosp]

5 hours ago, zarantha said:

 

I'm using FSMP already, and talked with the FSMP devs about this bug. That's what the discord snippet was.

 

That thread was one of several things I used long ago to convert the chains from HDT PE to HDT SMP.  I haven't kept up with it, but I'm aware of it. It doesn't address why the chains look broken even when they have physics. That thread is about controlling the physics.

 

@zarantha @Kimy It's the bit about multi-body physics in the Bullet Physics library, each chain link is in essence another body (possibly with another attachment) and with debugging in Bullet Physics you can see the line(s) of physics interactions between them. So, if the developers of FSMP can find some way of utilising this as part of the chain links being joined (or other such situations), it may help as they could be also under Bullet Physics, modelling the physics interactions of chains in real life. So worth seeing if a deeper dive of the updated code (version 3.2.4 or higher) of the library would help?

 

It may be possible that if multi body physics support was a recent addition, then ensuring support for it in FSMP would help and it probably appeared broken before, due to it possibly not supporting this. So, thus the chains were not being lined (positioned) and linked up correctly under SMP. Thus, with their multi body interactions, improperly handled rather than properly handled. This improper handling at the time, of the multi-body nature of chain links when transitioning to HDT-SMP from HDT-PE possibly got baked in, when converting the meshes of the models. So as a result, the chain links got to appear as broken even if they effectively still have the interaction of physics. Also, there may be the nature of the way the models (meshes and/or textures) for the chains were made originally for HDT-PE, possibly has interaction implications with the SMP conversion.

 

Was the HDT-PE based around the Havok system of physics which Skyrim utilises and HDT-SMP utilises Bullet Physics? If it is the case, then the reason for the chains working under HDT-PE was that maybe it had built in multi-body physics interaction support. However, HDT-SMP possibly may not have this support which affects things like chain links and other such multi-body physics; so thus, appear broken.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Leoosp

[Prime66]

On 12/4/2022 at 10:55 PM, zarantha said:

 

Are you using DD for Him as well? I've found it changing the priorities of several things. make sure it's loaded when you check if you use it.

 

Good catch, that was the problem ?

I'll leave it disabled for now since I don't use it much anyway. 

Thanks for the Tip   

[EldrichMosquito]

@zaranthaYay! i Figured it out! the corset had gone awol because the collar that had been locked on from the tiefling mod was in that slot. and the gloves were in my chains slot too. now, with the tiefling mod taken out...