Has Beth lost its edge on RPG gaming?

[afa]

But what the fuck is a RPG?

What WAS a RPG and what IS a RPG in 2015 (2016 soon)

 

Even if we were to dig up the old "standard popular games" of years past you end up with games with such wide array of differences that they should not have been group together under the same genre of RPG to begin with. Neverwinter, Diablo, Final Fantasy, Morrowind, Zelda, hell the D&D license alone span multiple genre of games on its own and it really doesn't get more "rpg" than that.

[LordJerle]

Only reason I play any Bethesda games is for the sex mods anyway.

[panthercom]

 At this point, FO4 feels like a bunch of actors standing around, waiting for their lines.

The set designers did a great job, and the script writers tried to subvert the mediocrity

imposed by the backers by leaving little morsels laying around where the corporate

ogres wouldn't notice them. If not being able to get into my character makes it a bad RPG,

then I guess it's true. You can be distracted by all the sights for the first 100 hours, and

after that it feels like a chore to continue playing. It can only be redeemed by mods.

 

 I can honestly say the best moments in the game were only witnessed by my eyes, and

ears, to a lesser extent.

[Aria]

What I don't understand is why Bethesda bothers with customizing the bodies at all if they're not going to put genuine effort into it, or worse, make the bodies hard to mod later. Their whole fat, thin, muscular idea seems to go along with the idea that bodies SHOULD be customized and yet they fall short of all that entails: breasts, hips, waist, ass... it requires a person with vision like Caliente to make it happen. That's cowardice. Either give gamers the full options or leave the lipstick off the pig.

Its a facade to hide the obvious fact that they are straying away from the rpg genre, thats why most of the new features are half-arsed unfinished designs without any depth.

They are there by popular demand not because they view them as a part of their franchise.

 

 

[Cressy_Ren]

To me Fallout 4 felt small and shallow.

 

The main storyline, while making replaying the game worth-while with its diverse endings, is too short for my liking. In FO4 Beth merged the faction quests into the main quest in an attempt to make a more integrated world compared to Skyrim, where the factions (except for perhaps the civil war questline) don't really interact with each other or with the main story. I have to say they did a fine job at this, in FO4 the factions and the main storyline are intertwined whereas in Skyrim the factions felt isolated, you being the Dragonborn played no part in any of the faction storylines.

 

However this is a double edged sword because by merging the faction quests with the main story, Beth has reduced the amount of story arcs in FO4. This is made even worse when the different factions can only be followed through to a certain point before they become hostile to you, thus ending the faction questline prematurely. I understand this is intentional for the sake of greater replay value but the consequence is that there were less "story" in the world of FO4. To put this into perspective we can again compare it to Skyrim. In Skyrim you have the main storyline and five faction story arcs (Civil War, Companions, Dark Brotherhood, Thieves Guild, and College of Winterhold). The rather lengthy main story aside, each of the faction questlines was a mini-story of its own. As such Skyrim felt richer when it comes to content and story. In FO4 however, aside from the main story which is merged together with the three factions, there are no other notable story arcs.

 

The side quests in FO4 were fine and dandy but again they were mostly a one-time thing (go there solve a problem end of story). There are only two side quests I can think of that remotely resembled a decent story arc, the Vault 84 quest and the Silver Shroud quest.

 

With the lack of story arcs there is no continuity in the story telling. Once the main story is finished the world of FO4 immediately became passive and empty. Sure there are still locations to be discovered, one-off quests to be done, random encounters to be had. However the story telling, as short as it already was, has ended.

 

This was so aptly reflected in my complete immersion into the game for about three weeks, and the immediate "there is nothing else to do" feeling following that, as I finished the main questline as well as what I believe to be most of the side quests. In comparison it took me almost two months to go through all the major quests in vanilla Skyrim.

 

To me it would seem that Bethesda was either not ambitious enough when making FO4 or they were too distracted by some other elements (crafting and base building system maybe) to make the story telling of FO4 one worthy of the title.

 

So perhaps Bethesda has dropped the ball on Fallout 4. One can only hope that the next Bethesda game (TES 6?) would be the one that the fans deserve.

[Kpnut]

I always gave Bethesda the benefit of doubt and looked at their games as a venue to mod, that is until Skyrim. FO4 has one character to play, the parent looking for the kid.  It doesn't matter if players can make them look anyway they want, the fact remains.  The only way to get away with linear protagonists is to make a good story with a good cast of NPCs to support it.  FO4 doesn't do that.  The player is pigeonholed into ONE ROLE with one option.  ALL the main quest dialogue points to one result.  It doesn't matter what the player says or how he says it; 'Sarcastic' has the same result as anything else other than just tabbing out of the conversation.  It's even more restrictive than Skyrim and yet people are calling it an RPG.

 

In ME3 there are character builds where the player can make their own Shepard with different skills and a different background.  Depending on what you pick the choices you have later and options for gear and dialogue will be different.

In TW3 the player is Geralt and practically everything you do and say will have ramifications later.  The possibilities are too vast to cover; it's that in depth.  Someone playing Geralt as a selfish prick will have a totally different experience than someone playing Geralt as a nice guy.

In FO4, the player gets to pick the sex of their character and make a face for it.  After that the RPG ends and the player has the exact same experience as someone else; side with a faction and get the same ending everyone else does.

This is the reason I was wary of FO4 and decided to give it a miss (the bolded paragraph, the second one just helps highlight the reason I skipped over it, admittedly I haven;t played it but when I heard the game would have a voiced protagonist I immediately thought that the scenario described in the bolded paragraph would happen and it looks like I was right. I don't mind a voiced protagonist in my RPGs, but if having one cuts down on the RPG aspect I'd rather suspend my disbelief and have a silent one.

 

@OT; I've skimmed most of this but I'll throw my thoughts in; Bethesda never really had an "edge" they're games aren't the best but they aren't really the worst either. The storylines (from the ones I've played anyway) are mediocre, the combat is mediocre and the graphics are mediocre. Hell they can't even use the fact that most of them are wide open world games because there are a bunch of games that have done that better. The lore is interesting enough but not enough to carry a £50 game, the only thing their games have going for them is the modding. What Bethesda essentially do is throw out a half finished, buggy skeleton of a game (maybe with some DLC later down the line) and some modding tools and basically say "there we're done with it, go wild" and expect the modders to fix their fuck ups.

[RitualClarity]

 

his is made even worse when the different factions can only be followed through to a certain point before they become hostile to you, thus ending the faction questline prematurely.

That is one point I actually appreciate. You progress and can't be friends with everybody like in Skyrim. In skyrim you can be a theif/Dark brother/wizzard/warrior with no repercussions. That don't make any sense. Well at least to me. However I do believe there really should have been more actual faction quest lines and depth of characters could have been improved.

 

The side quests in FO4 were fine and dandy but again they were mostly a one-time thing (go there solve a problem end of story). There are only two side quests I can think of that remotely resembled a decent story arc, the Vault 84 quest and the Silver Shroud quest.

Didn't find those quest. I have to check those out next time.

 

With the lack of story arcs there is no continuity in the story telling. Once the main story is finished the world of FO4 immediately became passive and empty. Sure there are still locations to be discovered, one-off quests to be done, random encounters to be had. However the story telling, as short as it already was, has ended.

yes.. I agree. I played around exploring for a bit after I completed the main quest to see what wsa going on and just got board.

[junkacc]

Don't knock Skyrim... there's so much to do. You can take screenshots and install sex mods... and take screenshots.......!!!

[TheOzoneHole]

I went back and started playing FO:NV again a few days ago. Decided to really crank up the settings in Increased Wasteland Spawns, and I'm finding that one thing from FO4 that I really miss is that quick loot system. After killing 20-30 ghouls I don't want to have to open the inventory of each one just to find out that all they have on them is a bottle of turpentine (useful in FO4, not so much in NV) and a hunk of radroach meat.  

 

 

 

What I don't understand is why Bethesda bothers with customizing the bodies at all if they're not going to put genuine effort into it, or worse, make the bodies hard to mod later. Their whole fat, thin, muscular idea seems to go along with the idea that bodies SHOULD be customized and yet they fall short of all that entails: breasts, hips, waist, ass... it requires a person with vision like Caliente to make it happen. That's cowardice. Either give gamers the full options or leave the lipstick off the pig.

 

Beth has never been much for character design. If I was ED on Bethesda, I would employ a completely new design team and ask the talented modders out there to join. After all the good job they did, they deserve that chance. But Beth are probably old stophiles who don't care if the bodies are sexy or not.

 

 

From what I've heard, second and third hand mind you, is that the majority of the team who worked on FO3 is gone. Some old hands like Hines and Howard are still there, but most of the rest either worked on Skyrim or are new.  I've heard Howard say that they dump everything they learn from each game and start "fresh".  Personally, that sounds like an excuse for why they don't seem to learn anything between releases.   Also, I'll point out that we are here gripping on LL rather than trying to come up with good arguments as to why things don't work and posting them to Beth on their forums. (Yes, I realize that after about the third post they'd come along and ban us for breaking some imaginary rule, just like at Nexus forums; but then we'd at least be trying to help them improve.  That said, Hines shut down the guy who pointed out just how dumb the "Kid in a Fridge" quest is, so not likely he'd actually listen.)

 

But what the fuck is a RPG?

What WAS a RPG and what IS a RPG in 2015 (2016 soon)

 

Even if we were to dig up the old "standard popular games" of years past you end up with games with such wide array of differences that they should not have been group together under the same genre of RPG to begin with. Neverwinter, Diablo, Final Fantasy, Morrowind, Zelda, hell the D&D license alone span multiple genre of games on its own and it really doesn't get more "rpg" than that.

 

Arena/Daggerfall, Pillars of Eternity/Baldur's Gate.  And I've listed the first two TES games simply because they work on a system based on the D&D style. Heck Dagerfall had about 6 different endings, they just rolled them all into one for the next game. Nothing new there, they did it with Deus Ex.

Don't knock Skyrim... there's so much to do. You can take screenshots and install sex mods... and take screenshots.......!!!

 

Yeah! And if you get bored you can even take screenshots of sex mods!

[darkconsole]

I argue that Bethesda never, ever, had an edge on RPG gaming. Every single Bethesda game I have played is like a half full shell that modders have to fix to become playable. They stay in business by waiting a long long time between releases that we we forget how bad the games were at release by the time they want more money.

I currently have 47 mods installed for FO4 and none of them are stupid, they are all legit things that had to be fixed to make the game not retarded. Example? YOU CANT EVEN CRAFT GUNS OR ARMOR YOU CAN ONLY MOD WHAT YOU FIND?!?!?!?1 What the actual fuck, how did they get crafted in the first place? Enter Crafting Workbenches mod.

 

They might have been good developers before they formed Zenimax... not sure. I'm pretty sure they formed that though just so they could be like "parent company demanded release sorry guizzz"

[Guest endgameaddiction]

 

 

From what I've heard, second and third hand mind you, is that the majority of the team who worked on FO3 is gone. Some old hands like Hines and Howard are still there, but most of the rest either worked on Skyrim or are new.  I've heard Howard say that they dump everything they learn from each game and start "fresh".  Personally, that sounds like an excuse for why they don't seem to learn anything between releases.   Also, I'll point out that we are here gripping on LL rather than trying to come up with good arguments as to why things don't work and posting them to Beth on their forums. (Yes, I realize that after about the third post they'd come along and ban us for breaking some imaginary rule, just like at Nexus forums; but then we'd at least be trying to help them improve.  That said, Hines shut down the guy who pointed out just how dumb the "Kid in a Fridge" quest is, so not likely he'd actually listen.)

 

 

You have to understand that Bethesda like majority of the game developing corporations that have gone cross platform can give a flying fuck about the pc gamers.

 

I'll put it very simple. Bethesda takes our opinions the very same way a LL user posts a mod request in a pinned mod request thread. It's an idea or concerned tossed in a trash bin. A place to dump the spam. Nothing more.

 

I'll say it again like I have in the past. If you want them to hopefully change, people will need to boycott. If they care, they'll take it into consideration. If not, they will continue to do the things they do and keep earning all the protesters money as they will constantly give in and buy another mediocre product from them.

 

You want to hit them where it hurts? People need to stop pre-ordering. Let their games lose millions in sales. They'll tremble all the way down to their knees. And when they ask themselves, why? protest. You'll see Pete Hines going ape shit throwing paperwork all over the place. <--- that would be a sight to see.

 

I won't march to Bethesda and protest because frankly I don't give that much of a crap if they continue a new Fallout or TES game anymore. I don't care if they went bankrupt, or their corporation burned in flames along with them.

 

The only way I'll continue to play their games is me pirating them.

[RitualClarity]

 

You want to hit them where it hurts? People need to stop pre-ordering. Let their games lose millions in sales. They'll remble all the way down to their knees. And when they ask themselves, why? protest. You'll see Pete Hines going ape shit throwing paperwork all over the place. <--- that would be a sight to see.

 

You don't even really have to stop that or go that far. A public statement and agreement from most of the fans of the game not to buy the game till say the second week after it has been released. The "unity" will scare the shit out of them. It will also give a clear idea of how many are part of the complaint. (buying on the "buy" day) showing a peak. They will be very interested in what that group has to say.

 

Now the problem.. The problem is simple. Nobody will join together to boycott or the like. The game producers will still go along and build games that are popular to get the best money and only fix what has to be fixed. The next game will be more simplistic as the one after that will be more simplistic and further from the 'fan" base expectation.

 

I suppose if they gave us proper modding tools we can re-make the entire game to what it should have been after putting 500000 hours into dev.

[bjornk]

Moddability is the only "edge" Bethesda games have ever had, everything else in them is either poor or mediocre.

[Rorschach666]

one should not forgett, bethesda games are built on the players imagination.

(characters history before you start a game etc)

strictly speaking, many mods are totally unnecessary because it plays no role whether i see certain actions/behaviors or simply imagine them, because its a game.

 

*sarcasm off

[TheOzoneHole]

 

 

 

From what I've heard, second and third hand mind you, is that the majority of the team who worked on FO3 is gone. Some old hands like Hines and Howard are still there, but most of the rest either worked on Skyrim or are new.  I've heard Howard say that they dump everything they learn from each game and start "fresh".  Personally, that sounds like an excuse for why they don't seem to learn anything between releases.   Also, I'll point out that we are here gripping on LL rather than trying to come up with good arguments as to why things don't work and posting them to Beth on their forums. (Yes, I realize that after about the third post they'd come along and ban us for breaking some imaginary rule, just like at Nexus forums; but then we'd at least be trying to help them improve.  That said, Hines shut down the guy who pointed out just how dumb the "Kid in a Fridge" quest is, so not likely he'd actually listen.)

 

 

You have to understand that Bethesda like majority of the game developing corporations that have gone cross platform can give a flying fuck about the pc gamers.

 

I'll put it very simple. Bethesda takes our opinions the very same way a LL user posts a mod request in a pinned mod request thread. It's an idea or concerned tossed in a trash bin. A place to dump the spam. Nothing more.

 

I'll say it again like I have in the past. If you want them to hopefully change, people will need to boycott. If they care, they'll take it into consideration. If not, they will continue to do the things they do and keep earning all the protesters money as they will constantly give in and buy another mediocre product from them.

 

You want to hit them where it hurts? People need to stop pre-ordering. Let their games lose millions in sales. They'll tremble all the way down to their knees. And when they ask themselves, why? protest. You'll see Pete Hines going ape shit throwing paperwork all over the place. <--- that would be a sight to see.

 

I won't march to Bethesda and protest because frankly I don't give that much of a crap if they continue a new Fallout or TES game anymore. I don't care if they went bankrupt, or their corporation burned in flames along with them.

 

The only way I'll continue to play their games is me pirating them.

 

 

Personally, I hope that the loss of GOTY will produce some changes. I give it .5% chance of happening.  As long as Todd Howard and Pete Hines are with BGS, I don't see any positive changes coming. Most of the main people who were involved with Morrowind have now left BGS: Ken Rolston, the MW & OB lead designer; Mark Nelson, another one of the main designers for both MW & OB; and Michael Kirkbride, also a designer for MW.  All of them left either after Oblivion was done, or, in the case of Kirkbride, during Morrowind's development.  I'm not saying the Morrowind guys are perfect, Rich Lambert, who also worked on Morrowind was one of the creative directors for TES:Online.  

 

And as for pre-orders, as long as they are willing to offer extras to those who pre-order, people will do so. If people feel that there will be plenty of copies of the game (which is less of an issue with more people buying through Steam or Origin) and/or the extra items the company offers don't look that great, then some people won't pre-order.  But again, other people pre-order more to go to the pre-order "event" with their friends than because they want the game early.  

 

And I will point out, as I have done before in various LL and non-LL settings, that this is not the 1770's.  A unified boycott of a game is not possible. We are not in high school and trying to get the lunch room to stop serving mashed pea bake.  We are talking about a multi-million dollar corporation that can afford to drop $1m on ads to get people hyped up to buy their product.  I don't deny at all that PC gamers are getting the shaft, and by console centering their product BGS and BethSoft and ZeniMax have targeted a larger demographic.  A demographic that doesn't seem to give two used condoms about "RPG elements" or  "quality storytelling" or "in depth characters".  They want the fancy graphics, and they want simple decisions with no consequences.   Yes, I agree that the boycott might work, but how do we convince the majority player base to do it?

[Guest endgameaddiction]

I was writing a very very long wall of text about my opinion on your response but I don't have the energy to continue it and post it so I'll just say that if the vast majority are fed up with this treatment, especially adults who are more knowledgeable and experienced, they know what they need to do.

 

A child is much much more easily to convince because they aren't thinking about the technicality and the harm that this is doing to consumers, so we have to pay the price. And that price of course comes with the choice on whether to continue to support BGS or not.

 

 

[Aria]

one should not forgett, bethesda games are built on the players imagination.

(characters history before you start a game etc)

strictly speaking, many mods are totally unnecessary because it plays no role whether i see certain actions/behaviors or simply imagine them, because its a game.

In that case you might aswell stop buying games and start to immagine you own them, saves money and the possibilities are endless

[ratrace]

Moddability is the only "edge" Bethesda games have ever had, everything else in them is either poor or mediocre.

 

Which means: they're best when they let others work on their games. Couldn't agree more.

[GrimReaper]

Y'all sound like old geezers complaining about the youth or something.

[Vacaliga]

Y'all sound like old geezers complaining about the youth or something.

 

I'll be the first to admit that the thought of beating certain game companies with a cane has crossed my mind once of twice. 

[Yami X]

Y'all sound like old geezers complaining about the youth or something.

 

Then get your azz off our lawn.

 

*On topic*

 

Bethesda never had a edge to begin with true story.

[Rorschach666]

because the games are not based on story, personally, i dont care if im gayass dragonborn or not.....if you play skyrim the "immersive" way, it never comes out that you are dragonporn cause the first thing ralof says, when leaving helgen, is "i think its better if we split up"

i play skyrim, fallout because i want to escape into another world, to discover a new world. if i want story i play silent hill 2 or the like.

you also wont find a movie wich is good in all areas.

[LordJerle]

Y'all sound like old geezers complaining about the youth or something.

 

Is 32 old?

[Marauderrr]

I've enjoyed every beth game I've played. Ever since I bought arena on 8, 3.25 disks I loved the freedom to run around and explore. I even liked their terminator games.

 

That said, I have found a continual slide in their writing of quests and story arcs.  Hell, the Imperial/SC struggle was non-existant when it was touted as being central to Skyrim.

 

Ulfric shouted him apart... really?  My Imperial chick walked over to him and hit him over the head with a great sword and he never shouted once. Here I was expecting a great shouting contest that never happened. Are you telling me that none of their writers once said "Hey, we should really have Ulfric using dragon shouts..." hello? HELLO?

 

They removed all of the quest lines for the various temples to the gods that were in morrowind. Granted some of the quests were good but shouldn't the main quest be GREAT?

 

Thank god for the modding community to give their games some replayability. Beths ideas behind their games are fantastic...their execution not so much.

 

It seems like they are still being rushed out the door...guess they didn't make enough money with skyrim.

 

All said and done, I will continue to support them for their open worlds, and character customization...elder scrolls specifically.

[Darkening Demise]

Skyrim was a joke compared to Oblivion, but when compared to Fallout 4....its still a better RPG.