Has Beth lost its edge on RPG gaming?

[RitualClarity]

The reason bethesda games become popular is mostly due to the community that modifies it and the tools that they provide to do so.

Since geck is not out yet for FO4..  it is not as great as it will be yet.

 

That is their edge.. and we will not know if they lost it until the geck comes out and how much freedom we will have to modify the game.

 

That is only one edge in my opinion. A major one I will give you that however only one of the edges it has. In the past it created wonderfully engaging stories and quest that inspired creativity and added content. Just creating a game with a few simple quest and characters and adding some tools is weak to say the best. If they aren't going to build great environments with engaging characters and quest.. just create a blank world with lots of interesting spaces to explore and give the tools for the modding community to create the rest..I am sure that would be very cheap indeed for them to create even if they create a world as deep and interesting (environment) as Fallout 3 and then multiply it 4 times over.

[spoonsinger]

Re:- "All I can say is I haven't found a Fallout 3 or NV mod with superior voice acting."

 

That's an outrageous statement. In fact where is my little .22 sub sonic?

 

 

[video=youtube]

 

 

[Guest endgameaddiction]

There is a difference between "I haven't found" and "there's never been".

 

I never seen that mod before but I'm looking at it right now.

[afa]

As fun as mods are, we are living in a modding bubble.

Considering console copies of the all these games by default have no mod support and I am willing to guess only a fraction of PC users actually use mods and only a fraction of those are truly paying close attention to the modding scene I am not sure how much of an edge that really is.

[TheOzoneHole]

Would the best modders get together and make a good Fallout or Scrolls style game?

 

I would think funding would be pretty simple through kickstarter, as long as the idea for the game is sound of course and I've seen some pretty crap ideas get backing so.....

 

 

 

You mean like Unwritten: Echos of Twilight? They ran two kickstarter campaigns, and as far as I'm aware both failed.

[Gameplayer]

Consoles are getting mods.

 

Thought that was part of the central argument against BSG here....

 

Seeing that it would exemplify the point that modders come in and either fix said product or give it more appeal that it could possibly have had on its own legs.

[RitualClarity]

There is a difference between "I haven't found" and "there's never been".

 

I never seen that mod before but I'm looking at it right now.

 

I personally enjoyed the voice acting in Someguy's mods. Have you used those? What did you think about those. I never used the one that you mentioned (at least I don't remember using it ).

 

There are some funny references to movies and such on the above

 

[afa]

Then the bigger question is, should mods be count as for or against bethesda's edge on rpg.

[Guest endgameaddiction]

 

There is a difference between "I haven't found" and "there's never been".

 

I never seen that mod before but I'm looking at it right now.

 

I personally enjoyed the voice acting in Someguy's mods. Have you used those? What did you think about those. I never used the one that you mentioned (at least I don't remember using it ).

 

 

I haven't. But that's a very interesting mod. His accent blends very well with the western theme in New Vegas. Quite funny too.

[vram1974]

 

 

Skyrim is a garbage RPG.  Really it's an action game with meaningless numbers that go up sometimes and quests that are completely inconsequential.  Every build boils down to "stealth archer" or "invincible enchanted battlemage".  Oblivion at least had a lot of variation in its quests. 

 

New Vegas was an amazing game and I wish Bethesda would take some lessons from it.

 

Garbage? Come on now. Skyrim as a game is one of the GOATs. Maybe not as an RPG but as a video game it's in my top 10 of all time. I have sunk 1,088 hours into Skyrim, which is 10x more than Fallout: New Vegas.

 

The only other video games I ever spent more hours on were Dragon Warrior 1-4 (Dragonquest) and Diablo 1 and 2.

 

 

I have sunk about 2000 hours into Skyrim so far but what am I doing most of the time? Tweaking characters, testing mods, fixing bugs & crashes, taking screenshots or just fooling around.

Do I enjoy doing that? Yes, but it doesn't make it a good game because what Bethesda made was not what kept me playing.

Without mods I would've dropped Skyrim after my first playthrough.

 

Fallout 4 is a complete failure as an RPG but it atleast has somewhat enjoyable combat, Skyrim on the other hand is both a shit RPG and a shit action game if you take out the 3rd party content.

 

 

I think the biggest proof Skyrim is a GOAT game is that despite the fact the piece of fucking shit game has crashed on all of us about 20,000 times we keep coming back to play it.

 

Literally the shit crashed on me 3 times in two hours today. Once, just because it froze down to 1fps. Another time when I opened a book. A third time when my active scripts reached 3,000 and I had to use the scalpel to kill them all.

 

I mean, Skyrim is a buggy fucking disaster of epic proportions. The ONLY reason Fallout 4 got 114 hours out of me is that it never crashed on me.

[RitualClarity]

 

 

There is a difference between "I haven't found" and "there's never been".

 

I never seen that mod before but I'm looking at it right now.

 

I personally enjoyed the voice acting in Someguy's mods. Have you used those? What did you think about those. I never used the one that you mentioned (at least I don't remember using it ).

 

 

I haven't. But that's a very interesting mod. His accent blends very well with the western theme in New Vegas. Quite funny too.

 

He spends quite a bit of time building the mods. He has many voice actors that work with him  and in my opinion his mods are quite well built and does have many ascents and can be quite funny. The clip is a part of the mod that I haven't tried yet. If you use the bounty hunter quest it is also quite funny as well.

[Kendo 2]

Then the bigger question is, should mods be count as for or against bethesda's edge on rpg.

 

The 'argument' some people make on Bethesda's behalf and ignorant statements to the effect of 'Mods will fix it' don't hold water.  In their fanboy rush to defend a company that doesn't give a shit rpgs anymore, they are willing to justify anything and misdirect away from what Bethesda is getting seriously wrong.  We all know what's wrong with their games and mods CANNOT fix what is FO4 as a whole.

 

'You can mod it' and 'Mods will fix it' doesn't make a game good; it just means people can add their own shit to it.  If the base game is a cluster fuck to begin with there's no fixing involved.  As I see it, FO4's roleplay saving grace will come along in about 2 or 3 years when mod teams start working on total conversions to remove the Parent/Savior protagonist.  As FO4 is right now there's no way to roleplay in the game, or at least there isn't one for me.  Skyrim was bad enough with 'the dragon born' bullshit and NOW it's in spades with 'Gotta save the baby boy' FO4.

 

Get rid of the main story, fix the AI bugs, ditch the factions and maybe make a new world space to play in.  I'd play that FO4, but not the one Bethesda made.  It sucks green rhino.

[afa]

It has always been like that. Perhaps the FO series tend to be a little more heavy handed when it comes to focusing the main in general the same was for FO3 (look for dad) and to a certain extend NV (who shot you), but even Morrowind and Oblivion weren't really off the hook, a hero reincarnate and a prisoner of fate in the emperor's dream ended up being a daedric prince.

 

These games haven't really change much for both better or worse. They are the same janky mess, same flatline story, same throwaway characters all in a massive world held together by duct tape that occasionally split out something interesting without blowing up.

 

Again the concept of "what is a rpg" is still a question for the ages when we look at games that identify as rpgs there is a wide spectrum of them, and where is the point when the technical aspect becomes a subjective aspect.

[RitualClarity]

 

Then the bigger question is, should mods be count as for or against bethesda's edge on rpg.

 

The 'argument' some people make on Bethesda's behalf and ignorant statements to the effect of 'Mods will fix it' don't hold water.  In their fanboy rush to defend a company that doesn't give a shit rpgs anymore, they are willing to justify anything and misdirect away from what Bethesda is getting seriously wrong.  We all know what's wrong with their games and mods CANNOT fix what is FO4 as a whole.

 

'You can mod it' and 'Mods will fix it' doesn't make a game good; it just means people can add their own shit to it.  If the base game is a cluster fuck to begin with there's no fixing involved.  As I see it, FO4's roleplay saving grace will come along in about 2 or 3 years when mod teams start working on total conversions to remove the Parent/Savior protagonist.  As FO4 is right now there's no way to roleplay in the game, or at least there isn't one for me.  Skyrim was bad enough with 'the dragon born' bullshit and NOW it's in spades with 'Gotta save the baby boy' FO4.

 

Get rid of the main story, fix the AI bugs, ditch the factions and maybe make a new world space to play in.  I'd play that FO4, but not the one Bethesda made.  It sucks green rhino.

 

That might be nice. Remove the requirement that you are mom/pop etc .. keep the frozen story-line from that time period.. perhaps a flashback to entering the vault etc. I don't like the main quest all that much but I can take it. My main problem is the starting point and the lack of flexiblity that provides. The rest is much harder to fix. Character development and such.

 

These games haven't really change much for both better or worse. They are the same janky mess, same flatline story, same throwaway characters all in a massive world held together by duct tape that occasionally split out something interesting without blowing up.

 

Again the concept of "what is a rpg" is still a question for the ages when we look at games that identify as rpgs there is a wide spectrum of them, and where is the point when the technical aspect becomes a subjective aspect.

Same janky mess. I don't believe so. Similar process perhaps. Now I do believe they have declined from oblivion through Skyrim with the stories and such as time went by.

 

Hell I don't even care about the RPG aspect or whatever on has as  a definition. They can't even have a decent character development and engaging story. So regardless of RPG, not RPG, etc. The story is weak, the radiant quest are quite repetitive.. more so than before and then finally the technical aspects and glitches. People accepted and even enjoyed the previous version of games even with the glitches. This is I believe because the story engaged the player. More flack is given (someone stated it lost the GOTY status) because they have declined way more than before. I hope this is a wake up call for them but I don't believe they hit rock bottom yet so the worst is still yet to come. Perhaps the next TES version will be crappier than FO4.. maybe then the fan base will realize that Bethesda has truly lost their way.

[afa]

I guess that's where I differ. None of bethesda games' story really interest me. I like some aspects of it up until a certain point, I like the aspect that the PC of Oblivion is technically the side kick to the guy who will save the world...up until the point PC becomes a daedric prince, but I guess some people might enjoy that. I sort of like the set up of Skyrim with civil war, thalmor, dragons, and blades, but they never did anything meaningful with it although it is a good backdrop.

 

About the future, FO4 is selling very well, even if people get burn there's no real data to turn the ship around until the next one flops. If this is going to be another FO > TES > FO cycle TES6 might feel the burn, but that's not even for certain since the last TES, Skyrim, did very well and despite all the bickering around here, it was well received. Assuming TES6 also sells well it won't be until FO5 for the sales to really flop and TES7 to flop and for FO6 and TES8 to turns things around if possible.

By then 20 years would have pass we will either be living on mars or living in the real nuclear fallout ourselves.

[tsnootch]

Not a fanboy, just my two cents...sorry for the length, I don't post much so I have a lot of "pent up" thoughts!

 

Modded Skyrim reflects less than 14% of it's sales...

1.  It doesn't seem rational to me to hold modding against Bethesda, or to not give them credit for this.  They absolutely deserve credit for this.  Saying that Bethesda allows modding because they know it will "fix" their game is laughable.  Skyrim isn't a PC game, it's primarily a console game, as more people own consoles, and the market drives product.  Look at the sales for Skyrim...59% of sales went to Xbox 360.  27% went to PS3.  14% went to PC.  So, 86% of Skyrim sales went to console.  We can safely assume that not all PC gamers mod, so we're talking less than 14% of the PC versions of Skyrim are modded.  So, you're telling me that Bethesda made a product that they wanted fixed by modders...for less than 14% their community?  Come on.  They offer modding to PC gamers, unlike most developers, because they either really love and respect their PC community or because they understand it helps drive creativity for future game mechanics and design...or both.

 

Wrong question...

2.  The question for me is not "Has Bethesda lost its edge." For me it's realizing that Bethesda is basically offering a very similar experience each game...and a lot of people are content enough with this to pay for it.  If you decide that Fallout 4 is a repackage of Skyrim, which is a repackage of Oblvion/Fallout3/etc.etc., then it's only logical to assume Bethesda is pretty consistent in their products and, therefore, if you don't feel they "have it" right now, then you must say they never did.  Nostalgia is double-edge sword...it increases the likelihood of remembering something old as better than its original state and, by default, it also increases the chances you'll never be satisfied with future attempts to "reskin" that experience.  Of course, this doesn't just happen in video games, it happens in all aspects of entertainment, clothing, music, etc.  Most things are just "reskins" until a major leap in technology propels the subject in question to another platform;  then if feels new and fresh.  Why then would anyone expect Bethesda to be any different.

 

Pain is sometimes part of the pleasure...and you know it

3.  How many times have we all sat there, trying to get Skyrim to work, only to give up and then return to feel justified and joyous when we figured it out?  I've read multiple posts pointing out that Bethesda games are a buggy mess (very true) and, therefore, that indicates a lack of trying on their part and a dependence on modders (btw...Bethesda spent 3.5 years developing Skyrim).  I do not feel that bugs are a REAL problem...because of WHY it's buggy.  The more parts a complex machine uses to achieve its purpose, the greater potential for flaws and need for maintenance.  You might also argue that the more parts there are to achieve something that could be done with fewer, the more flawed the design...I'll grant you that Bethesda could always do better...but, tell me, how many other developers out there are offering you consistent products that can give you hundreds of hours of enjoyment every game they release?  Yes, it's frustrating.  Yes, it's annoying.  So, why will I continue, like so many others, repeating that "self-flagellation." Because the core of what makes Bethesda games is at least satisfying enough that it outweighs the "pain" I know I will undergo.  Often times, the pain is part of the pleasure.  I am not giving Bethesda credit for this, rather making observations.

 

Us PC gamers are a needy bunch...and spoiled

4.  Pretty much says it all...we forget how good we have it sometimes and the flexibility and modding capabilities often drive us to expect more than we sometimes deserve.  If we got the same version of Skyrim (no Creation Kit) that console gamers got, this discussion might look very different.

 

Finally, I am NOT saying we should just settle from now on and be content all the time with everything we get for our money.  Just pointing out that if Bethesda games truly have "lost it" their company wouldn't be able to sell games, because gamers have so much more content out their to entice them to spend their money elsewhere.

[Guest endgameaddiction]

None of that still changes the fact that when you purchase a game, it's literally unplayable. Forget about the CTD, Freezes and corrupt saves. And I'm talking about the game itself out of the box and installed without mods. Lets not forget broken quests and missing dialogue, or even missing NPCs.

 

And this is having the required specs to operate this game on your system.

 

Their pc version is being supported by the many because of eyecandy mods. Not the patches. But without the patches, why bother with the eyecandy mods? The unofficial patches are essential and requires for many mods. It's just like SKSE is essential and is required for most of the major mods.

 

Their faulty product has always been my biggest argument. And frankly I got tired of going through so many new games starting over because at some point the game is nearly unplayable. Starting over and over and over only to redo the same quests, rebuild my skills once again and talk to the same NPCs again and again has been more of a chore than a fun experience. No game should ever feel like that.

[tsnootch]

I understand...just personally, I never once was unable to complete a vanilla Bethesda game on console.  The definition of unplayable for you must be different than the many who have played Bethesda games to completion.  It's clearly not unplayable as that would imply not being playable.  Frustrating?  Yes, but not unplayable as that's subjective.  Of course, there were patches, like all games, but I was never prevented from finishing it.  My biggest gripe were the freezing during loading when New Vegas released on PS3.  Eventually, that got "fixed." I also haven't bought FO4 yet either so who knows what I'll encounter there.

 

I had high hopes for Ark: Survival Evolved and when I tried playing it, it ran horribly.  Many people were saying, including me "It's unplayable!"  Then I get on the server listing and see that thousands up thousands of people are playing it.  Clearly, I was wrong, it's not unplayable, it was unplayable for me because of what I expected out of it.  There's a difference.

 

But, yes I certainly identify with your frustration over Bethesda games, I just can't help myself giving them a chance though.

[Gameplayer]

Uh, wait,......

 

Hold the phone,

 

No one is making you mod the game but you.

 

If the game actually runs without mods than its not really BSG's fault if its buggy with the crap mods you installed.

 

Skyrim and Fo4 actually run fine with decent hardware full graphics 60FPS gold gamer standard and all that jazz.

 

_________

 

When we shift to speak about modding you have to bear in mind that there is a whole lot of things that can go wrong and there are a lot of people out there that are modding their game that don't have much of a clue let alone bother reading anything....

[tsnootch]

Uh, wait,......

 

Hold the phone,

 

No one is making you mod the game but you.

 

If the game actually runs without mods than its not really BSG's fault if its buggy with the crap mods you installed.

 

Skyrim and Fo4 actually run fine with decent hardware full graphics 60FPS gold gamer standard and all that jazz.

 

_________

 

When we shift to speak about modding you have to bear in mind that there is a whole lot of things that can go wrong and there are a lot of people out there that are modding their game that don't have much of a clue let alone bother reading anything....

 

Agreed.  I think he was saying that vanilla Bethesda games are unplayable.  I disagree, because personally vanilla Bethesda games worked fine for me. Yes, there are some game breaking bugs, that get patched, but I can't think of many games where bugs don't hinder the experience until patched.  I finished Skyrim main story 3x on Xbox360.  Wasn't unplayable for me.

[Rorschach666]

i don't think people continued playing simply because the story was amazing, you were almost forced to reduce your social skills to zero in order to accomplish something...yes, you had to be a little nerd, presupposed that one actually knows something.

back to morrowind, or also often called "the previous versions".

morrowind was a masterpiece, it had everything skyrim has thrown overboard, complex combat system actually based on games like d&d and if thats not RPG i dont know what else to call an RPG then.  and the list goes on...infinite possibilities while crafting potions or spells, not to mention; NPC's died, they just died, like they should...and the game was even kind enough to reward you with a little message that said  "hey you idiot, you fucked up"

but for real, the one and only thing that makes morrowind (or previous titles) a "better game", is "the first time feeling"

remember that feeling, this game where you can put up a fork from the table or just sleep where ever you want to.

 

so yes they lost, they lost EVERYTHING

...uninstalled the game after i realized immortal npcs.

 

[Guest endgameaddiction]

He misunderstood. I'm talking about the game unmodded. I already know the consequences of heavily modding your game. Especially heavy scripts.

 

I'm talking about personal experience reinstalling skyrim 12 times. In between those times I never managed to go over 30ish in game hours when my save game would corrupt or I started facing random CTD and/or freezes. This is on Skyrim fully/officially patched because it's the legendary edition.

 

That has been my argument and shitty experience with Skryim after buying it, installing it and playing it.

[tsnootch]

He misunderstood. I'm talking about the game unmodded. I already know the consequences of heavily modding your game. Especially heavy scripts.

 

I'm talking about personal experience reinstalling skyrim 12 times. In between those times I never managed to go over 30ish in game hours when my save game would corrupt or I started facing random CTD and/or freezes. This is on Skyrim fully/officially patched because it's the legendary edition.

 

That has been my argument and shitty experience with Skryim after buying it, installing it and playing it.

 

Man, that sucks...I'd feel the same way if that were my case.

[Guest endgameaddiction]

It's all good now. I mean I managed to finally get it working after taking that break my first month. It was just a heavy ass burden in the beginning. And I just can't bring myself to go through that again with their games. Almost through threw this collection set on craiglist to desperately sell it.

[vram1974]

It's all good now. I mean I managed to finally get it working after taking that break my first month. It was just a heavy ass burden in the beginning. And I just can't bring myself to go through that again with their games. Almost through threw this collection set on craiglist to desperately sell it.

 

Going back to Skyrim recently after playing Fallout 4 was a bit of a shock. I'd gotten used to playing with CTD.