Ernest Lemmingway Posted December 29, 2015 Posted December 29, 2015 An online statement of an intent to boycott could work if there were enough people to support it. The problem is no one has made anything resembling a formal statement; it's all forum posts that are essentially meaningless soapboxes. And with corporations we don't get ballot boxes or even jury boxes unless they do something illegal. After the messes of 2015, I'm not even going to jokingly condone bullet boxes; some things even I can't be irreverent about. If people truly want to make a statement, then don't use forums or even private blogs. Gather testimonials from real people, post them on a page, and only publish it when there's enough to make it substantial. Otherwise it just invites derision from brand loyalists and fan(atic)s and those who don't know a thing about the complaint but still feel a need to post.
TheOzoneHole Posted December 29, 2015 Posted December 29, 2015 Y'all sound like old geezers complaining about the youth or something. Is 27 old? And while I know that it is currently people over 25 who are the major market for TES and FO games, I can't help but feel that part of the reason we are so critical of the newer games is because we liked the older ones so much.
afa Posted December 29, 2015 Posted December 29, 2015 Depends on the definition of what older games are. If you are telling me I have to go back to the days weird geometric shape arcade boards, inscrutable designs, and backward controls, then no, they aren't better and I don't like them one bit.
RitualClarity Posted December 29, 2015 Posted December 29, 2015 Y'all sound like old geezers complaining about the youth or something. Dam wipper snappers. Y'all sound like old geezers complaining about the youth or something. Is 32 old? Look a mungo.. Most people here have lived before and during the birth of Atari, NES, Commador PC, the first Apple computer, before windows even existed. The old days when RPG was pen and paper. etc... Some here used stone tablets.. . lol..
RitualClarity Posted December 29, 2015 Posted December 29, 2015 Y'all sound like old geezers complaining about the youth or something. Is 27 old? And while I know that it is currently people over 25 who are the major market for TES and FO games, I can't help but feel that part of the reason we are so critical of the newer games is because we liked the older ones so much. Oh look another mungo.. If what you state is true for the major market for TES and FO games why are they adding features to attract those below 25? They had a recipe that worked very well and created a strong, very loyal fan base. If they just kept on giving what they did before, story, direction, quest etc reliably. They wouldn't have the backlash they receive today. Every one of their fans for the most part would purchase the game day one, sight unseen. The best thing Bethesda could do is spin off a subsidiary to work on the TES and Fallout franchises. Hire the baddest of the baddest 12 die tossers that are also able to develop games. (in other words rehire those that worked before on these games during the height of the games and search for others of like mind) Don't need fancy features.. Just good reliable game like Oblivion, Morrowwind, Fallout 3, NV etc and some solid tools to mod it. Release the tools along with the game at the same time.. done.
Guest endgameaddiction Posted December 29, 2015 Posted December 29, 2015 I'm a mungo too. But damn were the 80s a good time. I was too little to enjoy the adult stuff but even the early 90s were fun times.
legendarytoyou Posted December 29, 2015 Posted December 29, 2015 When I think of classic RPGing I think of Daggerfall and Oblivion and the Fallout series, along with of course Baldur's Gate, Zelda and the Dragonwarrior series, then later Final Fantasy. Skyrim seemed to uphold many of the RPG elements of previous games but it also focused heavily on modern graphics which certainly must have cut into the RPG budget. That problem seems intensified in FO4, which is extremely weak in RPG and relies heavily on the implementation of FPS and Minecraft-like settlement building. I've been looking over Metacritic and although I know that users took a giant dump on Fallout 4, it definitely shows Beth dropped a turd in the RPG community. As a game it's highly playable (114 hours since Nov. 10) but the RPG community haven't enjoyed the narrowed choices (4 per NPC max) and the linear storylines. As pointed out in many FO4 reviews, it often doesn't matter what the fuck you even do, the results are the exact same. For instance, when you're asked to side with the mayor of Diamond City or Piper, either choice gets you into the city and both act the exact same way toward you. On Metacritic Fallout 4 gets an 84/100 which is decent but not only is it not Game of the Year it's not even RPG of the Year: Witcher 3: 93/100 Pillars of Eternity: 89/100 Amazingly, the RPG community has even turned their backs on major titles with great graphics for better storylines such as Undertale (93/100). I wonder if Elder Scrolls 6 will be a return to classic RPGing or whether Beth will continue to develop these graphics intensive FPS games where your choices don't matter and they've already decided who you are (mother or father looking for your son) and what you must do. I have noticed a steep decline in story elements over the course of a few years. Not ten years ago we had Morrowind, which is still considered one of the greatest Elder Scrolls games, even still outdoes Skyrim in terms of RPG aesthetics (Reason I'm a huge advocate of the Skywind mod; Hurry up guys people are dying out here for a remade Morrowind!). Not saying other titles were bad (well actually I wasn't hugely impressed by Oblivion, I personally thought it stank. Playing a melee character in Obivion was the equivalent of being a ping-pong ball in a hurricane; you spent 90% of the damn fight being staggered to death) but NOTHING and I mean NOTHING has been able to compare to Morrowinds in depth plot, sidequests coming out of every corner and a main quest that was just epic in scale. Skyrim had that feeling as well, I don't care what people say. In terms of RPG elements; Morrowind First place, Skyrim Second place, Hammerfall Third place, Oblivion dead last. You can tell Oblivion was made specifically for a console in mind. Mind you so did Skyrim but at least they didn't sacrifice large elements of the game (aka: piss poor combat system, simplistic speechcraft that made even Fallout 4 look better and the dumbing down of the Acrobats tree). Skyrim was to take blame in this as well although not as degrading. I personally was very pissed off they removed the Acrobats tree but that problem was solved later on with the very well made Athletics Mod via Mod Configuration tool. To date I think Fallout 4 is an impressive game...just not a very good Fallout game. I've stated many times before its a generic FPS shooter with extremely light RPG elements. You'll find some here and there but they are usually drowned out by the A-Typical, "Go kill X and Fetch Y," motif that has been the bane of every RPG in history, going all the way back to original Dungeons & Dragons table top game. I've warned GM's before, "don't inundate your secession with meaningless hack & slash, add good cohesive plot and story elements to your game." Those that ignored me ended up with a DnD group that fell apart not 2 or 3 days later. Those that listened still have campaigns going on today...and this was about 12 years ago! RPG elements are important to a game that is LARGELY SUPPOSED TO BE AN RPG. When you attempt to remove that it doesn't make things better, it only makes things worse. Case in point; I played Fallout 4 until I beat it.....I have yet to go back to playing it. My primary save has LITERALLY done it all. I even had save points made as specific key points to experience the whole game and I have to say there really isn't much to be said other than I think the Institute ending is the most logical choice. That's beside the fact when I compare Fallout 4 to say Fallout New Vegas. Fallout 4 reminds me WAY to much of Mass Effect 3 where no matter what choice you make it doesn't really mean anything other than the same poor cutscene, while New Vegas on the other hand had numerous possibilities for a substantial ending that corresponded with well written DLC content that they themselves had their own plot and thesis. I get the bad feeling any DLC content for Fallout 4 will just be filler, like the Gun Runners Arsenal or the Oblivion Horse Armor DLC that blew up in Bethesda's face. I hope I'm wrong....I'm hoping this little bloody nose will make Bethesda realize that the old saying of, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," still has a lot of merit. NEVER take advice from Blizzard Entertainment on this dynamic, their motto usually is, "If it ain't broke, fix it until it is."
Rorschach666 Posted December 29, 2015 Posted December 29, 2015 the main question remains, is fallout 4 canon? ... we need a shandification
Make-Use-Of-ME Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 saw this thread while drunk, honestly a bit bothered by problems and to be blunt horny as hell. so take ALL of this with a few grains of salt. while my conscience natters on about taking all of this with a few grains of salt. take a gander NOT at graphics. but at the lore creation/random world creation of this game http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/ now pair it with the following engine https://unity3d.com/ now the biggest thing and unsure if this could even happen, even though this might bring some flack. ALL parts are open (not open source but open to be modded). you would NEED to be vetted. vetting requires basically a small commitment. namely you will NOT pirate the game or cause intentional harm. that's it. my idea is ALL quests would be dynamic. no 2 starts (apart from "minecraftish" keys ) would be the same. kingdoms would be unique. no essential (unless set in game dev). tools to be created by and maintained by community preferably. thoughts? would you back? I REALLY want this. and I'm willing to try to make it real. this it my personal dream RPG.
TheOzoneHole Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 Y'all sound like old geezers complaining about the youth or something. Is 27 old? And while I know that it is currently people over 25 who are the major market for TES and FO games, I can't help but feel that part of the reason we are so critical of the newer games is because we liked the older ones so much. Oh look another mungo.. If what you state is true for the major market for TES and FO games why are they adding features to attract those below 25? They had a recipe that worked very well and created a strong, very loyal fan base. If they just kept on giving what they did before, story, direction, quest etc reliably. They wouldn't have the backlash they receive today. Every one of their fans for the most part would purchase the game day one, sight unseen. The best thing Bethesda could do is spin off a subsidiary to work on the TES and Fallout franchises. Hire the baddest of the baddest 12 die tossers that are also able to develop games. (in other words rehire those that worked before on these games during the height of the games and search for others of like mind) Don't need fancy features.. Just good reliable game like Oblivion, Morrowwind, Fallout 3, NV etc and some solid tools to mod it. Release the tools along with the game at the same time.. done. Realistically, the main reason that the large gamer "base" is over 25 is that we are the people with disposable income, and we are the gamers who started out in the 80's and 90's. We are the ones with the nostalgia goggles. I've got System Shock 2 from Steam, as I've played Deus Ex and I know that DE is a kinda-sorta follow on from SS2. I've never played SS2, and I'll get to it....eventually...maybe...but the point stands that I got it because of the fact that it is related to a game that I enjoy. (Side note: That "Build your adult empire" ad with its constant movement is really getting irritating.) Companies realize that the older gamers have the disposable income but often also lack the time that younger players have. Work, family, bills, work and bills of older players take up more time than work, beer, and college of the younger players. Since younger players are more likely to have a console (cheaper than a gaming PC) and many younger people are moving away from desktop PCs to laptops and tablet devices, which often lack the power to play modern games, the console focus is a good choice from the business perspective.
hmamato Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 Skyrim is a garbage RPG. Really it's an action game with meaningless numbers that go up sometimes and quests that are completely inconsequential. Every build boils down to "stealth archer" or "invincible enchanted battlemage". Oblivion at least had a lot of variation in its quests. New Vegas was an amazing game and I wish Bethesda would take some lessons from it.
Guest endgameaddiction Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 Skyrim is a garbage RPG. Really it's an action game with meaningless numbers that go up sometimes and quests that are completely inconsequential. Every build boils down to "stealth archer" or "invincible enchanted battlemage". Oblivion at least had a lot of variation in its quests. New Vegas was an amazing game and I wish Bethesda would take some lessons from it. Nah, New Vegas storyline was cheesier than Fallout 3. You ran around as a courier with a shitty identity. No background. You just know he's a delivery boy looking to get shot in the head a second time. You become a superduper hero where you are the ultimate badass that doesn't sit in a grave again after a headshot. Oh no. When you actually begin to play you actually rise up only to become a bullet sponge. Then that stupid pointless war and the factions. That game was just depressing.
Guest endgameaddiction Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 That is definitely what I'm saying.
vram1974 Posted December 30, 2015 Author Posted December 30, 2015 Skyrim is a garbage RPG. Really it's an action game with meaningless numbers that go up sometimes and quests that are completely inconsequential. Every build boils down to "stealth archer" or "invincible enchanted battlemage". Oblivion at least had a lot of variation in its quests. New Vegas was an amazing game and I wish Bethesda would take some lessons from it. Garbage? Come on now. Skyrim as a game is one of the GOATs. Maybe not as an RPG but as a video game it's in my top 10 of all time. I have sunk 1,088 hours into Skyrim, which is 10x more than Fallout: New Vegas. The only other video games I ever spent more hours on were Dragon Warrior 1-4 (Dragonquest) and Diablo 1 and 2.
Captain Cobra Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 Sure, Skyrim is fun to waste time in on occasion, but GOAT? lolno
hmamato Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 That is definitely what I'm saying. I would disagree. But I don't think we need to spend too much time arguing about video games so I hope you enjoy whatever you play
bjornk Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 I think of role-playing in a game as a kind of self-expression, as in "I want to be this character, doing these things". Character creation (physical appearance, stats, alignment etc.), NPC interactions, handling quests, influencing the game world are all the areas where you express yourself by means of different choices. I think this is what the popular marketing phrase "choice and consequence" tries to address, or at least some of it. The amount of freedom you have in terms of self-expression in a game determines whether or not you are "role-playing" in it. Now, if you look at Skyrim with this perspective, there is some amount of freedom in that regard, especially with the help of mods. You have an open-world to explore which has plenty of things to do. It's also partially a sandbox game in which you have the freedom to do what you want, whenever you want to do it. However, NPC interactions, quest handling, in other words, the bigger part of the game is highly restrictive. Can I destroy the Thieves Guild if I wish? Kill Maven? Side with the dragons? Double-cross the daedra? No. I don't have any "choice" in any of these things. Even dialogues that seemingly have multiple options end up in a single line of text most of the time which leads to one result only, which is often unavoidable (i.e. no option to choose from). You don't really influence the game world at all, unless specifically changed by the game, which is very rare, everything resets back to default after a while. The game doesn't even recognize you and your achievements, as the mighty Dragonborn who saved Tamriel from the wrath of dragons, you expect a bit of recognition at least, but instead you get, "Let me guess, someone stole your sweetroll". Skyrim may be considered a bit of a role-playing game perhaps, or an action game with role-playing elements, but it's not really a true role-playing game due to its largely restrictive, or rather "incomplete" nature, we might as well call it an half-ass RPG. Fortunately, it's a moddable game and you can add some more "freedom" into the game with mods.
vram1974 Posted December 31, 2015 Author Posted December 31, 2015 Now, if you look at Skyrim with this perspective, there is some amount of freedom in that regard, especially with the help of mods. You have an open-world to explore which has plenty of things to do. Ba-ding ding ding! Plus in Skyrim you weren't pigeon holed into having a false background identity you didn't want. But in Fallout 4 you're forced to be a MILF or a DILF with a son and a contrived sense of duty to rebuild the wasteland.
Guest Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 Skyrim is a garbage RPG. Really it's an action game with meaningless numbers that go up sometimes and quests that are completely inconsequential. Every build boils down to "stealth archer" or "invincible enchanted battlemage". Oblivion at least had a lot of variation in its quests. New Vegas was an amazing game and I wish Bethesda would take some lessons from it. Garbage? Come on now. Skyrim as a game is one of the GOATs. Maybe not as an RPG but as a video game it's in my top 10 of all time. I have sunk 1,088 hours into Skyrim, which is 10x more than Fallout: New Vegas. The only other video games I ever spent more hours on were Dragon Warrior 1-4 (Dragonquest) and Diablo 1 and 2. I have sunk about 2000 hours into Skyrim so far but what am I doing most of the time? Tweaking characters, testing mods, fixing bugs & crashes, taking screenshots or just fooling around. Do I enjoy doing that? Yes, but it doesn't make it a good game because what Bethesda made was not what kept me playing. Without mods I would've dropped Skyrim after my first playthrough. Fallout 4 is a complete failure as an RPG but it atleast has somewhat enjoyable combat, Skyrim on the other hand is both a shit RPG and a shit action game if you take out the 3rd party content.
Guest endgameaddiction Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 That is definitely what I'm saying. I would disagree. But I don't think we need to spend too much time arguing about video games so I hope you enjoy whatever you play Pity because I was looking forward to this pissing match
Sinister Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 Would the best modders get together and make a good Fallout or Scrolls style game? I would think funding would be pretty simple through kickstarter, as long as the idea for the game is sound of course and I've seen some pretty crap ideas get backing so.....
Guest endgameaddiction Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 All I can say is I haven't found a Fallout 3 or NV mod with superior voice acting. The one's I have tested are just someone talking on their headset. No emotions, no personality with the character. I have yet to be impressed again after experiencing Interesting NPCs for Skyrim. I have to admit that I was very impressed with the voice acting. The voices actually portrayed by those voice actors went very well with the medieval scene. I felt more closer to these characters because it was more believable capturing those emotions put into each character. I don't use that mod anymore, but that is one of the best follower projects I've ever encountered as far as immersion, quantity and quality all in one. So if a project like this happens, I hope they take this into consideration because essentially not putting those emotions and expressions into the character doesn't make it believable. Otherwise it's something that will definitely turn me off like New Vegas with their nerdy I still haven't hit puberty yet voice acting and they looked more like a faction cosplaying and running around pretending to be Roman soldiers. Dumb legions.
Lodakai Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 The reason bethesda games become popular is mostly due to the community that modifies it and the tools that they provide to do so. Since geck is not out yet for FO4.. it is not as great as it will be yet. That is their edge.. and we will not know if they lost it until the geck comes out and how much freedom we will have to modify the game.
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