Skyrim voice actors speak out against porn mods using their AI generated voices

[Uthan The Perverse]

https://www.pcgamer.com/anger-from-voice-actors-as-nsfw-mods-use-ai-deepfakes-to-replicate-their-voices-this-is-not-okay

 

What do you guys think of this?

 

The article specifically points out Nexusmods but I think it might as well also apply here.

[VersuchDrei]

The only Skyrim voice actor listed in that article is April Stewart. All the other VAs listed did not do any Skyrim voices.

First and foremost it should be noted that the legal question is if we are allowed to use synthesized voices at all, not just in NSFW content. If or not it is ok to then also use them in NSFW content is a moral question, not a legal one.

I agree that you cannot rip sound files out of a game like Overwatch and then feed it to 11labs and use it to make rule34 porn of Tracer. But not because you lack permission of the VA, but because you lack permission of Blizzard. They are the rights holder to those sound files, not the VA.

 

For Skyrim this is a little bit of a different situation, though, as Bethesda, the rights holder of the Skyrim sound files, did give explicit permission to use all files that come with Skyrim to make mods for Skyrim. So you still can't use Seranas voice files to make rule34 porn, but you can use it to make Skyrim mods. (in my opinion, I am not a legal expert, though)

 

Right now there are no laws about it. There are laws about someones likeness, but these are designed around looks, not the sound of ones voice. In that regard the question is: Does it sound like the VA or does it sound like the fictional character. April Stewart for example has voiced "multiple characters in Skyrim" as noted in the article. At max one of them is going to sound like her, as the other ones were made with an assumed voice.

This will most likely end in one of two ways:
1) There will be made a new law about this.

2) There will be made a lawsuit and a judge will decide. Whatever this judge decides will likely be the result of any future lawsuits, because that's how it works.

Either way the Robbies crusade might be able to bring us the legal clarity about the situation that many have sought for ever since the release of the 11labs tool.

Edited July 7, 2023 by VersuchDrei

[donttouchmethere]

How did they find out? ?

And why do I feel bad for them? ?

[SmedleyDButler]

There's some asshole shit-disturber "Robbie92_" who's on a personal crusade to notify every game VC they can find if any mod has been made using their voice lines, even if the mods are perfectly ethical and approved. He says it's only about NSFW mods, but I personally know multiple modders he's harassed and tagged who have nothing to do with NSFW mods.

 

I'd expect this to get more attention just because his one-man dumbass crusade is the sort of thing trash game site love publishing.

[ponzipyramid]

Like Versuch said, it's a moral question for now and likely to be a legal one in the future.

 

Right now, morally, I'm firmly on the side of the VAs here. While it's unlikely they'd ever see any kind of blowback (to their careers, personal lives, etc.), I can definitely see how something like this would feel immensely violating on the off chance they have to hear it.

 

Besides, ElevenLabs offers synthetic "average" voices that developers aiming to create both NSFW and SFW mods can use. Yes, this does mean you'll need to replace all the voice files for a given unique NPC, but it's not like Skyrim is suffering from too much vocal diversity as it stands. Seriously, almost every Nord is voiced by a single guy. 

Edited July 7, 2023 by ponzipyramid

[Yinkle]

They are worried about their careers, and wealth, nothing more. I had similar misgivings when digital imaging came into being - everyone and their granny can use a phone to make photographs and use filters to manipulate them.

[Wolfshrike]

2 minutes ago, Yinkle said:

They are worried about their careers, and wealth, nothing more. I had similar misgivings when digital imaging came into being - everyone and their granny can use a phone to make photographs and use filters to manipulate them.

 

Much as I hate to be a cynic, it's this. They don't care about this kinda stuff from any moral or personal level, but the writing is on the wall once an AI can replicate a voice and get it to say whatever it's told to. Well, alright, fair tip, some might have personal issues with it, but at the end of the day, It's the same thing as the writer's strike in the US entertainment industry right now. Why would Bethesda pay for VAs when they can offer a one shot contract- come in, record a sampling of your voice, and we'll feed it through our AI for our game. You get paid one (undoubtedly small) lump sum, we get to use your voice as much as we want in whatever we just bought it off you for. 

[Yinkle]

10 minutes ago, Wolfshrike said:

 

Much as I hate to be a cynic, it's this. They don't care about this kinda stuff from any moral or personal level, but the writing is on the wall once an AI can replicate a voice and get it to say whatever it's told to. Well, alright, fair tip, some might have personal issues with it, but at the end of the day, It's the same thing as the writer's strike in the US entertainment industry right now. Why would Bethesda pay for VAs when they can offer a one shot contract- come in, record a sampling of your voice, and we'll feed it through our AI for our game. You get paid one (undoubtedly small) lump sum, we get to use your voice as much as we want in whatever we just bought it off you for. 

It's the same for any industry when modern technology removes the need for human skills. It happened to mine, it will eventually happen to everyone, until goodness knows what is left for us to do. Maybe "skynet" will wipe us all out before we realise our own idiocy.

[Yami X]

I have to say, I'm I'impressed at the chaos one dickhead can cause.

[worik]

? They should have discussed their concerns with Bethesda before signing their contract.

For Skyrim, the only relevant opinion is Bethesda's.

[Grey Cloud]

10 hours ago, Yami X said:

I have to say, I'm I'impressed at the chaos one dickhead can cause.

You don't follow American politics then?

[DocClox]

On 7/8/2023 at 8:20 AM, worik said:

They should have discussed their concerns with Bethesda before signing their contract.

 

Can't really blame someone for not putting a clause in their contract to cover a situation that almost no one saw coming eleven years ago.

 

That said, legally, I'm tending towards the view that we have the right to use any and all game assets as we choose, subject to the terms of the Game and CK EULA..

 

Morally., I think if an actor objects, I think we should comply with their wishes out of simple respect.

 

On the other hand, just because one actor objects to their voice files being used, I don't think that means we shouldn't use them from any actor. Let's not set the rules of engagement based on one or two actors.

Edited July 23, 2023 by DocClox

[Yami X]

4 hours ago, Grey Cloud said:

You don't follow American politics then?

No, I really don't.

[pinky6225]

2 hours ago, DocClox said:

 

Can't really blame someone for not putting a clause in their contract to cover a situation that almost no one saw coming eleven years ago.

 

That said, legally, I'm tending towards the view that we have the right to use any and all game assets as we choose, subject to the terms of the Game and CK EULA..

 

Morally., I think if an actor objects, I think we should comply with their wishes out of simple respect.

 

On the other hand, just because one actor objects to their voice files being used, I don't think that means we shouldn't use them from any actor. Let's not set the rules on engagement based on one or two actors.

 

It was possible (if you had the time and patience) to use the voice files before AI since foxfingers did it as i recall for Amorous adventures so i think with Skyrim the VA's should have known it would be moddable at the time they signed up and some of the stuff the characters do might not align with there own personal views i.e. the guy that voiced the redguard in the dark brotherhood prolly doesn't approve of killing beggars in real life and the women that voiced astrid prolly doesn't condone killing two innocent peeps to make sure you get a guilty one

 

If the VA can object to the way there voice is put to use should peeps that came up with the character art/made the textures/meshes etc be able to object as well?

 

I think one of the distinctions that needs to be made though is whether the game was ever intended to be moddable in the first place since Mass effect wasn't (might be wrong) so jennifer hale might have a point, she signed up to deliver X dialogue she was aware of and no more

[Wolfstorm321]

I love parlor drama. I only visit the Skyrim modding community to read about it. 

When I go to Reddit, the first thing I put in the search box is "drama". And in the Nexus discord, "theft". 

Tell me more about this new crusade for righteousness. Let me guess, some cute follower mods are involved, right? 

How will the copyright crusaders going to defeat the dumb AI? Or will this be only restricted to the Nexus and its satellites? 

Let's help the crusaders to get rid of evil AI. Maybe make some banners? 
 

Edit: looks like someone already made a banner: https://imgur.com/S4FWNcG
I'm going to spread the word. We need to protect mod authors rights! 

Edited July 8, 2023 by Wolfstorm321

[SmedleyDButler]

"Banner made by Robbie, all rights, etc." on something like that is some huge "ORIGINAL IDEA DO NOT STEAL" energy.

[Splendor Solis]

I kind of get the impression that if the guy who made the textures for the skyrim bucket complained about how the bucket was being used, everyone would just laugh at him. Not sure why VA's are so esteemed that their work needs to be kept pure. Even less sure about why so many people think it's okay to restrict AI's progress and development to just the level that makes them safe and comfortable, as if the majority of the population hasn't been forced to adjust and adapt to technological changes in every generation since the 18th century. There used to be a lot more professional singers and musicians in the world, and it was people recording their voices who forced them to find a new career. How convenient that the exact "morally acceptable" point of technological advancement is the one that maximizes benefit to them.

[Vortex Lord]

How's using AI different from splicing audio together from different voice clips? Ethically speaking. And I don't care about ethics, it's modding. We shouldn't then be allowed to modify vanilla meshes and redistribute them for fuck's sake.

[M2xim]

Floodgates are open all they can do is learn to live with it. With AI anyone can do that stuff from his basement now.

Their real problem with it isn't the fact it's NSFW because nobody know who the f these guys are and there isn't a single soul out there who's going to stop them to say "hey i know you! You're that guy who called my Skyrim character a bitch and told her she should know her place. Huge fan bro!" because NOBODY watch the credits.

What really piss them off is the fact they're now getting a glimpse of a future where they can't even be in the corner of the picture anymore. This tech is guaranteed to replace everyone at some point(devs included). It's already pretty insane what it can do in its infancy. In 10 years it's probably going to be even more powerful than our wildest expectations.

They will try everything to stop it or at least slow it down and NSFW content with kinky stuff in it is an easy target but it's already over. I can't imagine a world where people like Bobby Kotick start saying stuff like "We avoid AI because I'd rather pay employees than increase our profit margin a million times".

To be fair to him the modding community use these tools to avoid paying voice actors too lol

[Varithina]

On 7/9/2023 at 10:26 AM, Vortex Lord said:

How's using AI different from splicing audio together from different voice clips? Ethically speaking. And I don't care about ethics, it's modding. We shouldn't then be allowed to modify vanilla meshes and redistribute them for fuck's sake.

Bethesda permits it in their games, many other companies do not, hence some games not permitting modding even to the extent of textures being changed, or they make it as hard as possible to actually do it in game.

[SmedleyDButler]

1 hour ago, 27X said:

[tweet]

 

 

I wonder how many of those people's names he's citing have in fact given him permission to do so.

[27X]

None.

 

He's trying to get a job out of this.

Edited July 11, 2023 by 27X

[sweforce]

I remember when there was some huge protests and strikes going on in London when typesetters where desperately trying to save thier jobs. It was to no avail, printing technology had made manual typesetting hopelessly obsolete. When it comes to voice acting having access to good quality synthetic voices will make dialogue expansion so much easier. Put the voice synthesizer in the users machine and all you need to do is submit the dialogue. Growing up with the original Bauldur's Gate games I got used to have recorded spoken dialogue start a conversation with a few lines of speech, at the most, then it changed to text only. Speech synthiziers will fix this. Also you can have player character speech without being limited to just a few sentences to choose from. They new technology can be fought but it cannot be stopped. The movie industry already want to use technology for digital resurrection of dead or too old actors.

[Varithina]

1 hour ago, sweforce said:

I remember when there was some huge protests and strikes going on in London when typesetters where desperately trying to save thier jobs. It was to no avail, printing technology had made manual typesetting hopelessly obsolete. When it comes to voice acting having access to good quality synthetic voices will make dialogue expansion so much easier. Put the voice synthesizer in the users machine and all you need to do is submit the dialogue. Growing up with the original Bauldur's Gate games I got used to have recorded spoken dialogue start a conversation with a few lines of speech, at the most, then it changed to text only. Speech synthiziers will fix this. Also you can have player character speech without being limited to just a few sentences to choose from. They new technology can be fought but it cannot be stopped. The movie industry already want to use technology for digital resurrection of dead or too old actors.

 

Part of the issue seems to be people were paid to voice a set script for a game, that was not porn, their voices are now being synthesised and used in porn, I can easily see their point, or are people saying that somebodies voice does not belong to them, and because we can now synthesise somebodies voices to match the original person voice we can do what we want with that, nope, no you can not, just the same as you can only post their pictures if they give permission or are in a public location, or a location where permission has been given, it probably will end up blocked into the intellectual copyright type of stuff, or in the photo and media side of the laws sooner or later, I am just wondering how messy things will get before it gets sorted out though.

[Alessia Wellington]

4 minutes ago, Varithina said:

I can easily see their point, or are people saying that somebodies voice does not belong to them, and because we can now synthesise somebodies voices to match the original person voice we can do what we want with that, nope, no you can not

 

How are you going to copyright your voice? And what if you hire a voice actor whose voice sound indistinguishable from the original VA's voice?