Patreon: Obligation and Entitlement

[27X]

44 minutes ago, t.ara said:

i think i catched somehow an opinion of a third-party statement

The phrase you're looking for is passive aggressive. Also former and still current gmod folks have created at least four engines over the last decade, so yeah context indeed does matter. Nobody mistranslated the original intent, and this isn't even the first time 'OH NO YOU CANNOT POSSIBLY FATHOM THE CONTEXT OF MY OH SO HEAVY WORDS, I WILL NOW AWAY FROM YOUR SCURRILOUS ACCUSATIONS FORSOOTH' has been used by said poster, or the second or even third. In fact it's kind of a recurrent theme whenever opposing factual evidence is brought up.

 

Which is kind of ironic considering a pretty similar tactic is used by lots of folks on patreon to defend 'borrowing' other people's stuff to make money that certainly does not includle those original authors in the accreditation loop.

 

[t.ara]

?

23 minutes ago, 27X said:

The phrase you're looking for is passive aggressive. Also former and still current gmod folks have created at least four engines over the last decade, so yeah context indeed does matter. Nobody mistranslated the original intent, and this isn't even the first time 'OH NO YOU CANNOT POSSIBLY FATHOM THE CONTEXT OF MY OH SO HEAVY WORDS, I WILL NOW AWAY FROM YOUR SCURRILOUS ACCUSATIONS FORSOOTH' has been used by said poster, or the second or even third. In fact it's kind of a recurrent theme whenever opposing factual evidence is brought up.

 

Which is kind of ironic considering a pretty similar tactic is used by lots of folks on patreon to defend 'borrowing' other people's stuff to make money that certainly does not includle those original authors in the accreditation loop.

 

oh, the cat with the flute, welcome;-))

(i lived with a "grey-colored european house-cat" ("family-tiger") in the past, which had same clever face and behavior like that one I watch on your profil-pic-now it´s about about 40 years ago!!-ok-I regret: she did not play flute:-))

[Mr. Otaku]

58 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

You mean that shit really doesn't work?  lol 

Lmao i wish it did work though.

[KoolHndLuke]

I realized something about patreon the more I think about it and it's about "selling" yourself as much as your work. I mean, you- as a artist- are putting yourself in a much sharper focus of the eyes of the net while also asking for "tips". Sort of like being on stage or something and having to perform to keep those dollars coming in. The difference, though, is that you have to engage your supporters on a much more personal level, rather than just adding some new content from time to time (or doing a little dance). Am I wrong in this assumption?

[KoolHndLuke]

Them- "Wow, this mod is so great that I can't believe it's free/I would have gladly paid for it!"

 

Modder- "Well, actually I do have a patreon set up......maybe you'd like to support me?"

 

Them- ......*crickets*

 

OR

 

Them- "Gee, we're such good friends you and I, won't you do/make this thing for my game?"

 

Modder- "Sure!" but later......

 

Modder- "Hey buddy, you know since were such good friends and all.....AND I did/made those things for you, maybe you wouldn't mind helping me out with a little money?"

 

Them- ......*crickets*

[27X]

On 6/2/2019 at 2:16 PM, KoolHndLuke said:

I realized something about patreon the more I think about it and it's about "selling" yourself as much as your work. I mean, you- as a artist- are putting yourself in a much sharper focus of the eyes of the net while also asking for "tips". Sort of like being on stage or something and having to perform to keep those dollars coming in. The difference, though, is that you have to engage your supporters on a much more personal level, rather than just adding some new content from time to time (or doing a little dance). Am I wrong in this assumption?

No, no you are not.

[KoolHndLuke]

4 minutes ago, 27X said:

No, no you are not.

I'd rather just shake my ass, lol. 

 

[RitualClarity]

With all this shaking asses and such going around.

 

Perhaps better than a Patron account

[Heartbreaker714]

I wish there was a Patreon who did Armor conversions. Just started using SAM and I love it, but there's a specific Dizona armor I wish was usable by it

[RitualClarity]

1 hour ago, Heartbreaker714 said:

I wish there was a Patreon who did Armor conversions. Just started using SAM and I love it, but there's a specific Dizona armor I wish was usable by it

Honestly, you and others should learn how to do conversions yourselves. Seriously.. not trying to be nasty or a jerk. Learning that process means that you have almost any armor (depending on your skill) from almost anywhere (again depending on your skill) that you can use in your game with a bit of work on your part. You can create an mod with all these beautiful armors... during the process add some re-coloring etc and you can have really original armors that others would only be able to drool over (unless they also had some skilz ;))

 

It is confusing and a bit of work and hard to start with but it does get easy. I know many that started doing this and as far as they mentioned to me.. they haven't regretted the time and effort to learn the skill.  In fact, that is one of the best skills to learn (along with how to create an ESP/ESM and add your stuff to the game) that anyone could learn. Quest, NPC creation and such .. are nice but the main bread and butter IMO is conversions. It also gives you so much skills with other aspects of modding allowing an entry to other things that might be of interest to you.

 

Then.. YOU can be the Patron you so seeking so much

[Heartbreaker714]

5 hours ago, RitualClarity said:

Honestly, you and others should learn how to do conversions yourselves. Seriously.. not trying to be nasty or a jerk...

No worries. #1 I've been trying to make the conversion for months now and it hasn't worked out correctly despite the tutorials, some help from other modders, etc. But more importantly, now I have much less time on my hands. That being said, like many of us, this is all at our leisure. And while it'd be nice to be a Patreon, it wouldn't be enough to pay the bills. And not to mention, not enough money for the work I'd actually'd be missing

 

But yeah, if you know of anyone who can make the conversion, send them my way lol

[RitualClarity]

1 hour ago, Heartbreaker714 said:

No worries. #1 I've been trying to make the conversion for months now and it hasn't worked out correctly despite the tutorials, some help from other modders, etc. But more importantly, now I have much less time on my hands. That being said, like many of us, this is all at our leisure. And while it'd be nice to be a Patreon, it wouldn't be enough to pay the bills. And not to mention, not enough money for the work I'd actually'd be missing

 

But yeah, if you know of anyone who can make the conversion, send them my way lol

Perhaps in your spare time, post what is happening in a thread and ask for support. LL's Discord channel is a good source for assistance as you are working it. When you finished up your hour or so of spare time just let those reading it know you have to leave and thanks (for anyone that has helped) I see some pretty quick turn around. Screen captures, description of what is being done and often times someone can give suggestions.

 

It would be a shame if you gave up, you are further along on that process than I am (having experience with the tools and some of the effects and mistakes )

 

But I and others that understand the process (as you understand the complexity ) understand when someone states they just don't have the time to do it.  There is sometimes a choice.. fuck around with mods (in your case conversions) or play the game. The answer depends on you and your greatest pay back in pleasure for your limited time.

 

In any case, best of luck for those that try. I suggest that people at least try (seriously) Even if they can't achieve the desired results they still learn about the process and what goes in to modding (in general)

[Heartbreaker714]

1 hour ago, RitualClarity said:

...But I and others that understand the process (as you understand the complexity  ) understand when someone states they just don't have the time to do it.  There is sometimes a choice.. fuck around with mods (in your case conversions) or play the game

The statement of yours I quoted says a lot! Finding that balance is a trip and when does one say I've spent too much time with an issue that's not changing? (rhetorical question). The quest for the perfect set up. Many of us can spend so much time modding that days/weeks pass without even playing the actual game.

 

Speaking of time, I'm actually attempting to work on the armor again right now. The issue is that geometry is always becoming fucked up when I attempt to make the conversions. Thank you for letting me know about the LL discord channel, though. I'll have to look for it and see if there's some one there that knows about this. Here's a look at the armor I'm trying to make work with SAM: 

[KoolHndLuke]

22 hours ago, Heartbreaker714 said:

But more importantly, now I have much less time on my hands

One of my points. Thank you. Not everyone wants to spend their free time learning to mod games and would rather just get someone else to do it for them. They might find a nice modder to do it for them, but chances are good that they won't........at least not for free. And my "choice" is to mostly play the game and enjoy it since I don't really enjoy beating my fuckin' head against the wall while trying to learn modding- not anymore at least.

 

 Everybody tries to make out that modding is the easiest fucking thing to learn if you just take the time........and that is a lie. It can be brutal to learn and it is usually the most determined, hard-headed people that stick with something after so many mistakes to finally get something close to what they wanted. Porting models and textures from one game to another is not very "easy" to learn either. All of it takes tremendous time, patience and the will to see things through- something that most people do not possess. It also takes more than a little intelligence and skill/talent. Some of the more complicated mods cannot be done by just anyone who is willing to learn. That's like saying anyone can learn to be a doctor or a nuclear physicist and it simply ain't true.

 

Encouraging people to try and learn modding for themselves is commendable. Suggesting that it is ALL easy to learn is an insult to those that have spent a lot of time making mistakes and worked their ass off to learn any of it.

[Vyxenne]

On 5/28/2019 at 6:29 AM, KoolHndLuke said:

I would feel a little squeamish asking people for donations for what I do at this point- which is basically hacking [other people's] meshes and textures

As well you should, IMHO. Good on ya!

On 5/28/2019 at 6:31 AM, 27X said:

patreon prefers [to be treated as a Tip Jar rather than a store] for pretty obvious reasons, especially in regards to copyright and 'original works'.

Those "obvious reasons" are apparently not universally obvious... alternatively, those violating them may know they are thieves and simply don't care.

On 5/28/2019 at 7:43 AM, CPU said:

But most modders and game creators I know lock the contents behind Patreon paywalls. [...]And usually we remove them from LoversLab when we spot them here.

Another great reason to love LL. ?

On 5/28/2019 at 9:58 PM, Hugh Reckum said:

Monetizing mods for a game that you don't own the publishing rights to while navigating the tangled and controversial mess of leveraging work from other modders for profit = Too much of a can of worms imo.

Exactly. Legally, morally and ethically wrong.

[KoolHndLuke]

55 minutes ago, Vyxenne said:

On 5/28/2019 at 6:29 AM, KoolHndLuke said:

I would feel a little squeamish asking people for donations for what I do at this point- which is basically hacking [other people's] meshes and textures

As well you should, IMHO. Good on ya!

Oh, I hack other people's shit all the time for myself- but that's just for my private use. In fact I'd say the best way to learn about mods is to make changes to existing ones. What I meant was using vanilla game assets- which I would totally ask for donations on if I felt my work was that good. Since were kinda on the subject, a moderator on the "other" site said that even showing hacked mods in screenshots is not really permitted. I told her if that policy was enforced, then they would have to ban most of the screenshots uploaded to their site every minute.  

[Vyxenne]

20 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

even showing hacked mods in screenshots is not really permitted.

So, are you (was the Nexus moderator) saying that when I recolored Petrovich's vest, for example, strictly for my own use, never shared with anyone in any way, and then post a screenie of me (my character, of course) wearing it, that's a violation of the Nexus TOS????

 

Is that also a violation of the LL TOS? I can't see that it would be after re-reading it.

[KoolHndLuke]

47 minutes ago, Vyxenne said:

So, are you (was the Nexus moderator) saying that when I recolored Petrovich's vest, for example, strictly for my own use, never shared with anyone in any way, and then post a screenie of me (my character, of course) wearing it, that's a violation of the Nexus TOS????

 

According to her, Yes. She wrote this in a thread that any changes to a mod and shown without permission from the author is a violation. I don't know what the hell she was thinking when she wrote that tbh. I think they just make shit up half the time, lol. You should have read them going back and forth about "pussy" and "retarded" in mod titles!  LL doesn't care as long as you're not using someone else's stuff without permission to "make" your own mod and possibly charge for it.

[Darkpig]

Heh! *Snort*

 

How many times has this subject of money been brought up? So far on Patreon I haven't seen anything that amazing at least for Skyrim. Yeah we'll go with that since Skyrim might just be the new industry standard if Bethesda's Creation Crud means anything. Perhaps there needs to be more competition and since the only competition is mudcrab armor then there goes that conversation. If people can get around Bethesda's bugged mess of a game and somehow make the game fresh and engaging then that might be worth something.

 

No matter what happens this going to be a bumpy ride.

 

Of course you could try other media to sprout your creative branches.

[KoolHndLuke]

1 hour ago, Darkpig said:

Skyrim might just be the new industry standard

It would be pretty cool if that were true. More games open to modding I mean.......and they had some kind of profit sharing model in place for user made content. But, who the fuck am I kidding?! Seriously though, maybe one or two of them will realize how much amazing talent there is in the modding community and start to blow this shit wide open. Sometimes I think we may be witnessing the birth of the next huge thing in gaming. I mean modding is pretty damn addictive. 

[dagobaking]

 

On 6/2/2019 at 1:16 PM, KoolHndLuke said:

I realized something about patreon the more I think about it and it's about "selling" yourself as much as your work. I mean, you- as a artist- are putting yourself in a much sharper focus of the eyes of the net while also asking for "tips". Sort of like being on stage or something and having to perform to keep those dollars coming in. The difference, though, is that you have to engage your supporters on a much more personal level, rather than just adding some new content from time to time (or doing a little dance). Am I wrong in this assumption?

I think it depends on the project. For art-centric things like outfits, animations, etc. that is probably true. But, for tools, code, etc. it's not as much of a self expression thing.

On 6/14/2019 at 12:07 PM, RitualClarity said:

Honestly, you and others should learn how to do conversions yourselves.

Encouragement is good. But, also, good thing about economies is that people can do what they are good at and exchange payment for that to get something someone else is good at. Win-win.

 

The insistence that modders, the smallest fish in the game industry food chain, should get nothing for their work while corporations take 100% of the share makes for an inefficient economy.

1 hour ago, KoolHndLuke said:

Sometimes I think we may be witnessing the birth of the next huge thing in gaming. I mean modding is pretty damn addictive. 

If the trend isn't toward expanding on this, the bean counters will have missed a huge opportunity. I think that modding is where a large part of the die-hard gaming community lives. Over time, it has to influence the studios more.

 

I think that Bethesda working with Steam was the right direction. But, they were too greedy the first time. Maybe they will try again with numbers more similar to Apples App Store.

[maddadicusrex]

As I am quick to tell all, I am much older than most of you and grew up in a different world. I was grateful for favors and if it was for labor from a friend, at least a six pack of beer was considered proper "payment". I am so grateful if I can get a modder to create something that tickles my sexual fancy. I have paid out "fair" wages to have modders make something just for me. But that was always for "clean" mods. For adult types, I am getting used to not being able to just paypal $50 or more to someone for a modding favor. If Patreon works for modders now, then I am OK with that. Bottom line ,if any modder can do the work, wants to do the work, produces the work, I will be loyal to them and future efforts and favors..Am grateful for their patience, also. Thanks

[RitualClarity]

9 hours ago, dagobaking said:

Encouragement is good. But, also, good thing about economies is that people can do what they are good at and exchange payment for that to get something someone else is good at. Win-win.

 

The insistence that modders, the smallest fish in the game industry food chain, should get nothing for their work while corporations take 100% of the share makes for an inefficient economy.

 

I never stated Mod authors shouldn't get something for their works.  There are several people I know that have patrons (including yourself) for various works in gaming and some that have patron for other things in RL.  

 

Previously I believed that their works should be public and freely accessible.. however, now I don't even believe that unless it is a requirement (framework) for other mods that are free to use. Private mods can be that.. private be it behind a patron account or traded among members. I came from a point in view that all should be free and unrestricted (redistribution, reworks taking parts of the mod for use elsewhere.. basically open source) to so long is it isn't a required part of a free mod framework.. I am good.

 

I do believe however, the setup for Bethesda is garbage for those individuals that produce and give their work over to them.  From all I have heard from sources it isn't much and really isn't worth it in the long run (patron would be better in this case)

 

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If the trend isn't toward expanding on this, the bean counters will have missed a huge opportunity. I think that modding is where a large part of the die-hard gaming community lives.Over time, it has to influence the studios more.

It is also where they loose the most control over the end product. Providing tools to the public for free means that sites like this can provide mods for free... or with the advent of Patron and other sources for money... loose that potential monies. They don't like that. They want 100% return if not more. They want to be part of the chain where they get the monies first. That is the reason for the Steam project, and now the Creation Club (even more control given to them... someone here stated that if Steam failed back then, a worse thing will come. That they won't let it go)

 

The influence is on the question on how to latch on to the money train that is being provided for free, or near free (lets face it.. those patron accounts contributions are quite cheap compared to what time and efforts it takes to make any decent mod not even to mention a framework like AAF. Pennies on a dollar.) Gaming Studios can't get that as it cost them a lot more $$$$ for the same projects from professionals. Lots more.  They want in the pie.. not a piece of it.. they want all the fucking way into that. I see that as the influence that all this discussion and trends are leading to.  Then with the issues with loot boxes and other issues... they need a new cash cow.. Modding is that cash cow.  I suspect they will do much like they did with Creation Club.. pay pennies for the rights to a mod and then tell the author to go fuck off . .unless you have something else. (no residue) When / If this future does occur... people will be looking back at the great deal that Steam modding offered.

 

I don't think the bean counters have missed this opportunity... they are trying to figure out how to cash in the best way possible. Bethesda is at the lead of this with their Creation Club. Other companies are watching closely. (Rockstar, EA Sims, etc)

 

On the subject... I don't contribute monies with this avatar... I don't  have it currently.. (making barely above minimum wage in an expensive area) However, when actively gaming I have provided lots of testing for mods and frameworks. To the greatest ability I have to provide the most reliable results. I work with the mod author(s) to create the mods through testing. There are many ways people can contribute if they don't have the $$$ or don't desire to contribute $$$$. This is one such way. Another way is provide basic support for the mods. (which I have done) and /or creating guides and /or tutorials, mini walk through, etc etc. (which I have done to various degrees for various games and mods)  There are many ways that one can provide support, even a "great job" and "love your work" can help motivate the author.  If a problem occurs or an issue is present.. bring the issue up in appropriate locations and in a constructive manner.. be willing to go back and test a solution and return with feedback.

 

Creating mods and tools for games is a time consuming task. Often without much deserved awards.. there are many ways to give back through $$$ transactions, to support to a positive feedback and /or proper bug reports and willingness to work and help with the fix.

 

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I think that Bethesda working with Steam was the right direction. But, they were too greedy the first time. Maybe they will try again with numbers more similar to Apples App Store. 

I don't think that will be the path.. at least not currently. I believe they will continue locking down control over their games and anything that is created with or for their game where they get the vast lions share of the $$$ and basically fuck the creators.. I don't believe your idea will occur unless there is major government intervention, and that will be hard considering how much money is involved.

[dagobaking]

3 hours ago, RitualClarity said:

I never stated Mod authors shouldn't get something for their works.  There are several people I know that have patrons (including yourself) for various works in gaming and some that have patron for other things in RL.

I didn't mean to imply that you did. I apologize if my post came off that way.

3 hours ago, RitualClarity said:

I do believe however, the setup for Bethesda is garbage for those individuals that produce and give their work over to them.  From all I have heard from sources it isn't much and really isn't worth it in the long run (patron would be better in this case)

Yeah. They clearly have some shrewd people behind the scenes coming up with this stuff. But, that doesn't mean leadership can't shift at some point toward something that will work better for them and users.

3 hours ago, RitualClarity said:

It is also where they loose the most control over the end product. Providing tools to the public for free means that sites like this can provide mods for free... or with the advent of Patron and other sources for money... loose that potential monies. They don't like that. They want 100% return if not more. They want to be part of the chain where they get the monies first. That is the reason for the Steam project, and now the Creation Club (even more control given to them... someone here stated that if Steam failed back then, a worse thing will come. That they won't let it go)

It's valid that they would want to be part of the market and to profit from it. They obviously should. But, eventually, they have to realize that it's not a case of "losing" money. Games that don't have mod scenes die off. Even if they never made a dime off any mod they will have gained profit from modding through a massively increased sales cycle.

 

I think that the reaction to the Steam project was hysterical and inarticulate. If something worse is tried it will at least be partially due to some users short-sighted flailing.

3 hours ago, RitualClarity said:

The influence is on the question on how to latch on to the money train that is being provided for free, or near free (lets face it.. those patron accounts contributions are quite cheap compared to what time and efforts it takes to make any decent mod not even to mention a framework like AAF. Pennies on a dollar.) Gaming Studios can't get that as it cost them a lot more $$$$ for the same projects from professionals. Lots more.  They want in the pie.. not a piece of it.. they want all the fucking way into that.

Even the original Steam plan split the earnings. So, they were open to sharing then. It just wasn't a reasonable split.

 

I think users need to grow about this too. If everyone who used Looksmenu paid 25-50 cents for it instead of 200 people paying $2 a month on Patreon, it would make the work professionally viable while costing users a few jolly ranchers. It would give incentive for modders to not abandon their projects and attract new modders who have financial responsibilities to take care of.

3 hours ago, RitualClarity said:

I don't think the bean counters have missed this opportunity... they are trying to figure out how to cash in the best way possible. Bethesda is at the lead of this with their Creation Club. Other companies are watching closely. (Rockstar, EA Sims, etc)

They definitely have been at the cutting edge. But, they aren't alone. There is also SecondLife. And The Sims is arguably more accessable and open to modders making income.

 

They struck out twice now.

 

Steam Paid Mods 1.0: Too greedy. Split was too high, causing proposed mod prices to be too high to users. Market is only going to tolerate sub-dollar prices, imo.

 

CC: Step backward. They can't possibly direct-manage enough mods to compete with the huge market of mods people have become used to. And they were too greedy again. Too expensive.

3 hours ago, RitualClarity said:

On the subject... I don't contribute monies with this avatar... I don't  have it currently.. (making barely above minimum wage in an expensive area) However, when actively gaming I have provided lots of testing for mods and frameworks. To the greatest ability I have to provide the most reliable results. I work with the mod author(s) to create the mods through testing. There are many ways people can contribute if they don't have the $$$ or don't desire to contribute $$$$. This is one such way. Another way is provide basic support for the mods. (which I have done) and /or creating guides and /or tutorials, mini walk through, etc etc. (which I have done to various degrees for various games and mods)  There are many ways that one can provide support, even a "great job" and "love your work" can help motivate the author.  If a problem occurs or an issue is present.. bring the issue up in appropriate locations and in a constructive manner.. be willing to go back and test a solution and return with feedback.

This is true. All of that help is very valuable. I think that if a pay system were more viable for modders and users, people would get paid for that kind of help too. We would see larger, more organized official mod teams.

3 hours ago, RitualClarity said:

I don't think that will be the path.. at least not currently. I believe they will continue locking down control over their games and anything that is created with or for their game where they get the vast lions share of the $$$ and basically fuck the creators.. I don't believe your idea will occur unless there is major government intervention, and that will be hard considering how much money is involved.

Hm. I think if they tried that approach it would be a bigger disaster than 76. I can't believe they are that dumb.

[RitualClarity]

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I didn't mean to imply that you did. I apologize if my post came off that way.

I don't think you were implying it.. just wanted others to understand I am not that way. Some don't like reading a few post previous to the one they are currently on to get the whole story.  

Quote

Yeah. They clearly have some shrewd people behind the scenes coming up with this stuff. But, that doesn't mean leadership can't shift at some point toward something that will work better for them and users