Patreon: Obligation and Entitlement

[RitualClarity]

I don't think modern corporations think that way. Too many companies are going for greed instead of good balanced product for price.

(for some dam reason, I couldn't post after the spoiler above.. )

 

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It's valid that they would want to be part of the market and to profit from it. They obviously should. But, eventually, they have to realize that it's not a case of "losing" money. Games that don't have mod scenes die off. Even if they never made a dime off any mod they will have gained profit from modding through a massively increased sales cycle.

 

I think that the reaction to the Steam project was hysterical and inarticulate. If something worse is tried it will at least be partially due to some users short-sighted flailing.

They are profiting from mods .. even if it is indirect. They are proud of the fact that their games are lasting 10 years (or more, Oblivon is still kicking and being sold) That is due to the liberal policies related to modding. They made money again and again over the years due to this. Of that I agree.

 

The reaction from the Steam project was very understandable. They came out of nowhere and started that. It wasn't managed properly with people wholesale stealing mods and making all sorts of crap for sale. Not really well thought out. Instead of serious investigation and planing for this new project they just tossed it on the wall to see if it stuck.

 

 

 

[KoolHndLuke]

8 hours ago, RitualClarity said:

I suspect they will do much like they did with Creation Club.. pay pennies for the rights to a mod and then tell the author to go fuck off . .unless you have something else. (no residue) When / If this future does occur... people will be looking back at the great deal that Steam modding offered.

Those creators need to negotiate a better arrangement where they make money off downloads. Working for a flat fee is fucking them and everyone that follows. I wonder why they don't expand on the pc side of things since there is no size limit to consider? It's not that I use CC, but they are here whether we like it or not.

[RitualClarity]

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Even the original Steam plan split the earnings. So, they were open to sharing then. It just wasn't a reasonable split.

A simple fix.. or in time, depending on the mod authors they net.. they could have had tiers for quality, sales and even size... Full land and conversions warrant a bit more %. Someone that reliably produces high quality product that is popular is also something worthy of a but more %.. they could have just left the split the way it was and then offered a higher % as the mod count sales go up. There were so many ways to solve that problem.

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CC: Step backward. They can't possibly direct-manage enough mods to compete with the huge market of mods people have become used to. And they were too greedy again. Too expensive.

Way to expensive for what they are offering. Not even close to what is reasonable. It is one thing to charge 5 dollars for a complete product. Quite another for a quick change of color or even a copy paste /steal or even porting it from a previous game (from their own studios)

 

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This is true. All of that help is very valuable. I think that if a pay system were more viable for modders and users, people would get paid for that kind of help too. We would see larger, more organized official mod teams. 

Even if money was an option for people that support, test and create guides and such.. I would decline. It is a personal decision, I am not going to do work or projects that take enough time out of my life that would warrant a need to get a paycheck. I am of the mindset that my work and contributions are of a public nature. I have been offered some $ from time to time to do some task or project and turned it down. I don't have any mods that are public (that I made) and all mods I babysit and moderate are free to use. Not able to be put behind a Patron page or any other form of pay transfer. Granted permissions aren't able to be given to others to do projects or use the mod or parts of the mods for their projects.. (even if always open and free) as I don''t have any rights to do so (given to me)  It is just as likely if I ever released something I created.. large or small (like a recolor or whatever) would also be free to use forever. Not that I have something against others using Patron or getting some support, but because currently I am of the mindset that my stuff should be free.  If for some reason I ever started creating some HUGE project or something, however, I would like to reserve the right to get some support for my work if ever I deemed it something I felt appropriate. That is the reason I don't hold it against anyone that does. At first I was dead set against it. then I grew to accept it as something that is very reasonable.  To the point that I accept it for all mods even completely private provided it isn't going to byte someone like myself on the ass where I have to pay for it to use other mods that are free.

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Hm. I think if they tried that approach it would be a bigger disaster than 76. I can't believe they are that dumb.

Well, where are our private servers for Fallout 76? Where are the mod tools for Fallout 76? The game is essentially the same as fallout 4 so there isn't much to do there. They are even banning people in mass for any texture mods and other things simply because it was modified. (at one time)  that tells me they are trying to lock down the modding options and tools. From what I hear the next Skyrim will be using a completely different engine. If they provide mods, think that will be open? Or, will it be using their site, distribution, creation, and moderated by them?

 

People didn't think after such a backlash that they (Bethesda) would ever try the pay thing again.. then a short time they did. and they did a worse job at it than before, in a way that they have exclusive control over all aspects of the process.  I can't put anything no matter how stupid it might seem past them.

[RitualClarity]

17 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

Those creators need to negotiate a better arrangement where they make money off downloads. Working for a flat fee is fucking them and everyone that follows. I wonder why they don't expand on the pc side of things since there is no size limit to consider? It's not that I use CC, but they are here whether we like it or not.

They aren't expanding on the PC side as they don't want to. I don't think they care (Bethesda) about the PC side anymore... the Console side has much more they can control and prevent happening... Also they can't get a game working before they release it.. how can they actually set up a system where larger more complex mods can be installed for the PC..

 

Keep in mind every-time they create new CC mods for release they royally fuck up the public mods with updates.. many that have fucking nothing to do with bug fixes.  Also expand the hard drive ever so much more each new CC mod they release. they actually download the textures.. I guess for the "just works" rule. 

 

they can't even get their process for the CC mods to work properly (like wait until a download to actually download it) to be able to even consider having different rules for different distributions (Console/PC etc)

[KoolHndLuke]

24 minutes ago, RitualClarity said:

I would like to reserve the right to get some support for my work

You said it right there- "Support for your work". This is what people would be supporting you for, not any particular mod you make. I felt that distinction was needed.

 

On another note, game mods are the only advantage pc's have in the race against consoles- which consoles are winning with each new generation. I think this is because most gamers play a game to "beat" it and then want to quickly move on to the new. The crowd that discovers mods for some of their favorite titles are the one's that usually get pulled in and stay. It would help greatly if mods got more and more exposure through YT and other sites, but word of mouth works pretty well too. I try to tell every gamer I meet about all the fuckin' great mods on the pc side. Their question is always "But, aren't pcs more expensive?" and I have to tell them they are slightly, but they're the best fucking investment they will ever make as far as gaming.

[RitualClarity]

15 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

You said it right there- "Support for your work". This is what people would be supporting you for, not any particular mod you make. I felt that distinction was needed.

 

 

The problem and confusion occurs when someone puts a mod behind a pay wall. Don't pay, don't play. It then becomes a product in many people's eyes.

 

This, I believe causes many of the problems that those that use Patron (and put mods and other creative content behind a paywall) experience.

 

I don't believe the service is bad, or how people use it. (putting things behind a pay wall etc etc) but I do believe some don't understand the results of their actions with Patron. It is one of the hidden pitfalls that might sneak up on some people if they aren't paying attention and understanding the net result of the process they use Patron for.  I have seen many get frustrated with some of their members supporting them through Patron from not realizing and/or understanding the mindset that their supporters might take based on the way the Patron account is setup.

 

 

[dagobaking]

1 hour ago, RitualClarity said:

I don't think modern corporations think that way. Too many companies are going for greed instead of good balanced product for price.

What I'm saying doesn't conflict with greed. It's the best path for the corporation in every term they desire.

1 hour ago, RitualClarity said:

A simple fix.. or in time, depending on the mod authors they net.. they could have had tiers for quality, sales and even size... Full land and conversions warrant a bit more %. Someone that reliably produces high quality product that is popular is also something worthy of a but more %.. they could have just left the split the way it was and then offered a higher % as the mod count sales go up. There were so many ways to solve that problem.

I believe they did offer something like that. A scale where you got a little more with more sales. But, the percentages on all parts of the scale need to be low enough for the end price to be what consumers are willing to pay. Which is not much. (And that is ok because there are a lot of buyers).

1 hour ago, RitualClarity said:

Well, where are our private servers for Fallout 76? Where are the mod tools for Fallout 76? The game is essentially the same as fallout 4 so there isn't much to do there. They are even banning people in mass for any texture mods and other things simply because it was modified. (at one time)  that tells me they are trying to lock down the modding options and tools. From what I hear the next Skyrim will be using a completely different engine. If they provide mods, think that will be open? Or, will it be using their site, distribution, creation, and moderated by them?

Private servers were always going to be a phase 2.0 thing IF the game did really well. Same for mods. They were pretty much making things up as they were asked to try and keep the hype to the max. Now that it flopped famously I don't think they will do the significant extra work to make mods there.

 

It wasn't a move to lock out modding. Being on-line, it's technically a much different game. Particularly for modding, there are layers of complexity that didn't exist before (does everyone online have to have the same mods, how large can the mods realistically be in that case, what if they are named the same but are different files, how to prevent cheats, etc., etc.).

 

Yes, I think they will provide the same level of modding if not add new openness like they did with FO4. I don't think they will do CC again. By all appearances it didn't do well in FO4.

 

They may have greedy corporate types at some level. But, they aren't morons. They know that the games have done well due to modding. They aren't going to break that.

1 hour ago, RitualClarity said:

People didn't think after such a backlash that they (Bethesda) would ever try the pay thing again.. then a short time they did. and they did a worse job at it than before, in a way that they have exclusive control over all aspects of the process.  I can't put anything no matter how stupid it might seem past them.

Well. They allowed mods just like with Skyrim. CC was in addition to. Not a replacement of or a locking down.

 

It would be a disaster for them if they did not continue to offer at least that.

[2dk2c.2]

On 5/28/2019 at 4:15 AM, KoolHndLuke said:

I'm curious as an half-way decent artist, how this works in practice. Do the people who donate expect things or sort of make demands disguised as "suggestions"? And do the recipients of donations feel more obligated to do things- aka it's more like a job? What are some of the pitfalls of Patreon, if any?

I didn't recognize you at first, Luke.

And since you brought it up, I'd think no commercials and seven-second-download delays

are a bare minimum.

Ah and I keep trying to remember to cancel, but I keep forgetting, 

Like forgetting to clean the toilet or euthanize the dog.

Maybe it's enough to pay a tiny bit to read your posts and stare at your avatar,

and for that I'm grateful. 

I'll endure the Gifs a bit longer.

[Pork Type]

As I understand it, Patrons mostly want to see/hear more of YOU, as that's what they signed up for: YOU.

 

Keep on being YOU. Lol. I say this as a fixed income household manager who gives you no money, because there IS no money to give. Professional leech! But I would never ever tell you to satisfy my bias. Even if i *did* have money.

 

Keep on euthanizing toilets, or whatever floats your boat. Don't become milquetoast.