Patreon: Obligation and Entitlement

[KoolHndLuke]

I'm curious as an half-way decent artist, how this works in practice. Do the people who donate expect things or sort of make demands disguised as "suggestions"? And do the recipients of donations feel more obligated to do things- aka it's more like a job? What are some of the pitfalls of Patreon, if any?

[A.J.]

Hi there, how's it going KoolHndLuke

 

Some patreons have a clear indication of that, i.e. you give 1 $ you are allowed to posts, while you give 10 $ (just pure examples) then you can make a suggestion and I'll take it in consideration, or I also have seen "and I'll make you custom versions" etc.

 

I think people have different views and it's up to you WHY you'd make a patreon instead of simply share mods, there's not a rule or whatever.

[KoolHndLuke]

7 minutes ago, A.J. said:

Hi there, how's it going KoolHndLuke

 

Some patreons have a clear indication of that, i.e. you give 1 $ you are allowed to posts, while you give 10 $ (just pure examples) then you can make a suggestion and I'll take it in consideration, or I also have seen "and I'll make you custom versions" etc.

 

I think people have different views and it's up to you WHY you'd make a patreon instead of simply share mods, there's not a rule or whatever.

Hi A.J. 

 

When do you think a person should consider giving Patreon a try? I mean, how much of a reputation should one have? I would feel a little squeamish asking people for donations for what I do at this point- which is basically hacking meshes and textures, lol.

[27X]

All of that depends on the rules the artist stipulates, and the legal and social frame that patreon is required to follow to exist at all. And yes it is a job; the artist isn't required to treat it as such, but you're quite literally getting money based on your work whether you admit it or not. How much influence that actually is dependent on whatever stipulations both parties have essentially agreed to, it's the same as any other socially enforced 'contract', just over the internet. You'll find most treat it as a tip jar to avoid any legal or monetary implications, and patreon prefers it that way for pretty obvious reasons, especially in regards to copyright and 'original works'.

[A.J.]

13 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

When do you think a person should consider giving Patreon a try? I mean, how much of a reputation should one have? I would feel a little squeamish asking people for donations for what I do at this point- which is basically hacking meshes and textures, lol.

As in my previous message, it's pretty much subjective. I can only tell you my opinion. When I'd make a patreon? when I can spend a decent amount of time in making mods and give a continuity, support, and a certain acceptable level. I probably wouldn't do it if I can spend only a couple of hours sometimes on weekend, or if I know that now I can spend some time but in a month things will change.

[MadMansGun]

mine is just a donation box that i blatantly ignore most of the time...but it's making me feel like i owe some people much more than what i'm providing.

[Guest]

According to GraphPatreon less than 0.5% of people with some Patreon author pages give something for free.

All others will require some money to share their contents.

 

So, technically Patreon is not a "donation system" but more a way to sell some sort of services/art/creation and a lot of illegal stuff.

 

Look at LoversLab's patreon. It is 100% voluntary and everyone can benefit of the site without paying a penny.

ZeMarmot (one of the author of GIMP) has a 100% voluntary system (GIMP is free.)

Paweł Zadrożniak (creator of music covers using hard disks) posts all his creations for free on Youtube.

 

But most modders and game creators I know lock the contents behind Patreon paywalls.

Some release something for free after a few months (Like TurboDriver, and that is 100% acceptable) some don't. And usually we remove them from LoversLab when we spot them here.

[KoolHndLuke]

50 minutes ago, CPU said:

Some release something for free after a few months (Like TurboDriver, and that is 100% acceptable) some don't. And usually we remove them from LoversLab when we spot them here.

I agree with that policy. "Donate" is a play on words anyway to make it seem like the supporter is just sayin' "Hey, I like your stuff and here is some $$$.", while trying to feel less obligated if they do so. One scenario that plays in my mind is to have someone be a complete jerk because they are giving you a bit of money. Much easier to tell them to fuck off when they aren't giving you anything......and you aren't asking.

 

However, I do understand MAs wanting to be compensated for their sometimes very demanding, time consuming work. For me, the second it feels like work, I stop. I've got around half a dozen mods I worked on, got tired of them, and will probably never finish. Actually, in my case, feeling obligated to finish things might help me because people both show interest and maybe even throw a little cash my way. I hate to let people down. 

 

The real question is competency, ie. how well I can make something in comparison to the base game or other MAs. Right now, I don't feel confident at all in this regard.

[winny257]

5 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

I agree with that policy. "Donate" is a play on words anyway to make it seem like the supporter is just sayin' "Hey, I like your stuff and here is some $$$.", while trying to feel less obligated if they do so. One scenario that plays in my mind is to have someone be a complete jerk because they are giving you a bit of money. Much easier to tell them to fuck off when they aren't giving you anything.

Fingers away from ONLINE PAYING SERVICE PATREON

Patreon's image gets cracks 

sorry German.

https://direkteaktion.org/finger-weg-von-patreon/

[Tyrant99]

I think it depends to some extent on the content that you're producing, whether it's original or derived. Personally, I never set up a Patreon for modding, nor will I, simply because I feel like Modding is very much a community effort. For instance, one of my Mod's does some nice multi-actor animation stuff, but, what good is that without the work of various animators? - Not much. And what good is the animators' work without Fore and FNIS? -and on and on. Not to mention, there's this proprietary gray-zone due to the fact that you're modifying someone else's published game. - But, on the other hand, people do spend time, energy, and effort on making and maintaining mods, and a lot of people enjoy the fruits of these efforts, so, I also don't really have a problem if some modders feel that they want to seek some support for the work that they're doing. In my case, it always felt like too much of a gray area, so I've always modded 100% free, publish all source code, etc.

 

ZaZ and I did set up a Patreon for the Unity game that we're working on though, and that's kind of a different beast. Making a game is not cheap or easy, I think we're in for a couple thousand dollars already on licenses etc. So, if you're doing stuff like this, it can be nice to have some crowd sourced funding to help with the costs of creating the content. And in our case, we'd even love to hire some people that we know around LL for various things - 3D modeling, art, design, animations, etc. As there's a lot of talent here. - But, naturally, it takes some resources to make this happen.

 

If you're creating original content, then you're analyzing Patreon as a publishing medium compared to other possible channels. One comparison would be, using Patreon vs. just making something and selling it. In this case, I think Patreon has some nice aspects because there's a lot of direct input from the community during the creation process and that process can be supported on a more continual basis. - Sort of a 'game with endless DLCs' type of situation. I do like Patreon a bit better than something like Kickstarter as well because I think it's fairer to Patrons and holds Artists/Creators more accountable. With Kickstarter there's been a lot of stuff that 'looks great', but many hopefuls just ended up paying for the nice advertising because the content itself turned out to be a pie in the sky scenario with a cash grab and the project that never came to fruition with little to no accountability on the part of the 'creators'. - At least with Patreon, Patrons and Creators have more direct communication channels and Patrons have a better sense of where things are at in the development process.

 

Anyway man, if art is something that you're passionate about, and having some extra resources from Patreon would help you pursue it, then, you might as well try, right?

[27X]

4 hours ago, CPU said:

some don't

some is a pretty strong word.

[Kimy]

4 hours ago, Hugh Reckum said:

I think it depends to some extent on the content that you're producing, whether it's original or derived. Personally, I never set up a Patreon for modding, nor will I, simply because I feel like Modding is very much a community effort. For instance, one of my Mod's does some nice multi-actor animation stuff, but, what good is that without the work of various animators? - Not much. And what good is the animators' work without Fore and FNIS? -and on and on.

I don't think that's any different from regular software development. You build a new application using components made/written by others. People sell Java applications last time I checked, even when chances are that they didn't contribute to the API they are using. People sell games using middleware by 3rd party providers and art assets bought from an asset store. That a mod relies on stuff created by others is the most normal thing on Earth and doesn't make you obliged not to charge for your work. The only thing that matters is the licence of any 3rd party component allowing you to use their work in such a fashion.

4 hours ago, Hugh Reckum said:

ZaZ and I did set up a Patreon for the Unity game that we're working on though, and that's kind of a different beast. Making a game is not cheap or easy, I think we're in for a couple thousand dollars already on licenses etc. So, if you're doing stuff like this, it can be nice to have some crowd sourced funding to help with the costs of creating the content. And in our case, we'd even love to hire some people that we know around LL for various things - 3D modeling, art, design, animations, etc. As there's a lot of talent here. - But, naturally, it takes some resources to make this happen.

Kinda OT, but as someone contemplating starting a new standalone game, too - how did you guys manage to blow so much cash on licences so early on in development? oO  I don't know a lot about the game you're making, but in 2019, there aren't a lot of tools left in the dev stack you wouldn't find a good OSS alternative for, starting with the engine itself. I think, I am still under $200 I spent on licences for stuff I bought for a previous game I made (~$20 for Aesprite, ~$50 on TexturePacker, and maybe $100 on art assets).

4 hours ago, Hugh Reckum said:

 

If you're creating original content, then you're analyzing Patreon as a publishing medium compared to other possible channels. One comparison would be, using Patreon vs. just making something and selling it. In this case, I think Patreon has some nice aspects because there's a lot of direct input from the community during the creation process and that process can be supported on a more continual basis. - Sort of a 'game with endless DLCs' type of situation. I do like Patreon a bit better than something like Kickstarter as well because I think it's fairer to Patrons and holds Artists/Creators more accountable. With Kickstarter there's been a lot of stuff that 'looks great', but many hopefuls just ended up paying for the nice advertising because the content itself turned out to be a pie in the sky scenario with a cash grab and the project that never came to fruition with little to no accountability on the part of the 'creators'. - At least with Patreon, Patrons and Creators have more direct communication channels and Patrons have a better sense of where things are at in the development process.

That and if you're making naughty stuff, most traditional marketplaces don't even allow that kind of thing on their platforms. Steam is the only one that does, and they made that change only very recently.

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

I'm curious as an half-way decent artist, how this works in practice. Do the people who donate expect things or sort of make demands disguised as "suggestions"? And do the recipients of donations feel more obligated to do things- aka it's more like a job? What are some of the pitfalls of Patreon, if any?

It all depends on the person. Myself I had never "donated" expecting anything, I did it to show appreciation for work already done. Even if they used other programs to build mods/art ect, it is still the time of someone put into the product I am supporting or using and if I felt that said product gave me enjoyment I would donate in appreciation.

 

I hade recently remove many donations I was providing , but it was not due to the lack of work of said modder/artist, it was just I felt after a years worth of donations I had given what I felt was worth the enjoyment I got out of the product

5 hours ago, MadMansGun said:

mine is just a donation box that i blatantly ignore most of the time...but it's making me feel like i owe some people much more than what i'm providing.

Well hopefully people do not blatantly make you feel like you owe them, the donation system should me just that, in my opinion, a way to show appreciation for work already done

[EgoBallistic]

I don't have a Patreon or take any kind of donations, but I know that as soon as money is even mentioned, some users become obnoxiously entitled.  I've seen users offer to pay mod authors to implement some feature they wanted, and then when the author declined, the user launched into a tirade because "I even offered to pay for it!"  This has happened to me and others on Discord and it's frankly insulting.  Some guy offers to pay about one-tenth of my hourly rate in the real world, and now I'm obligated to spend hours developing and testing something for them?  Yeah, no.

 

Just my $0.02, but I do this stuff for fun.  I already have a job with clients and deadlines and people breathing down my neck.  The last thing I want to do is turn this hobby into more of that.

[Kimy]

25 minutes ago, EgoBallistic said:

I don't have a Patreon or take any kind of donations, but I know that as soon as money is even mentioned, some users become obnoxiously entitled.  I've seen users offer to pay mod authors to implement some feature they wanted, and then when the author declined, the user launched into a tirade because "I even offered to pay for it!"  This has happened to me and others on Discord and it's frankly insulting.  Some guy offers to pay about one-tenth of my hourly rate in the real world, and now I'm obligated to spend hours developing and testing something for them?  Yeah, no.

My personal experience is just the reverse. My Patreon supporters are nothing but polite and respectful, while I keep getting rude, aggressive and entitled postings on LL by people who never would even think about throwing me a dime. I have never had any instance whatsoever where a supporter -demanded- me to make anything for them. They had suggestions, and yes, all things being equal, I DO prioritize suggestions from my supporters over the ones from people not supporting me.

 

But yes, I don't take commissions either. I work on the stuff I love to work on, and when people appreciate it enough to tip me, I am grateful. If I were to work on things I don't want to work on, I would feel compelled to charge a full regular rate, too. Which would probably end the discussion pretty quickly. I guess it's because many people really have NO idea how much work goes into developing software, and that this "little" feature they want would cost them two to three grand if I'd actually charge normal rates for it.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Kimy said:

I keeping getting rude, aggressive and entitled postings on LL

Sadly that is such a true statement, the lack of appreciation for the hours of work people put into some of the free content is amazing. It burnt me out from modding a long time ago. I will say from some of the comments I have seen you and others reply too, well you are a better person than I cause I do not have the patience..lol

 

How many comments I see that start with " Love this mod but" or "Thank you for all your work but", people need to be more appreciate for the work that has already done, instead of just blow it off and want more.

30 minutes ago, EgoBallistic said:

Some guy offers to pay about one-tenth of my hourly rate in the real world, and now I'm obligated to spend hours developing and testing something for them?  Yeah, no.

lol this is the truth, " What you will not spend your whole weekend making me a personal mod becasue I refuse to learn to do it myself, plus I offered you 5 dollars? What the hell?" 

[KoolHndLuke]

6 minutes ago, -Caden- said:

 " What you will not spend your whole weekend making me a personal mod becasue I refuse to learn to do it myself, plus I offered you 5 dollars? What the hell?" 

I really hope you're exaggerating........because that's just an insult. Five dollars wouldn't even tempt me change the colors on something. 

[DoctaSax]

50 minutes ago, Kimy said:

My Patreon supporters are nothing but polite and respectful, while I keep getting rude, aggressive and entitled postings on LL by people who never would even think about throwing me a dime.

Sorry to hear it.

Aside from thinking "internet be internet, yo", I'm wondering if the traditional lack of compensation for modding hasn't contributed to a permanent attitude of undervalueing it.

 

53 minutes ago, Kimy said:

If I were to work on things I don't want to work on, I would feel compelled to charge a full regular rate, too. Which would probably end the discussion pretty quickly. I guess it's because many people really have NO idea how much work goes into developing software, and that this "little" feature they want would cost them two to three grand if I'd actually charge normal rates for it. 

Now I'm curious what a 'full regular rate' looks like.

[Kimy]

24 minutes ago, DoctaSax said:

Sorry to hear it.

Aside from thinking "internet be internet, yo", I'm wondering if the traditional lack of compensation for modding hasn't contributed to a permanent attitude of undervalueing it.

I really think so. As odd as it might sound, but people don't value free stuff. They take it for granted.

Quote

 

Now I'm curious what a 'full regular rate' looks like.

It's quite dependent on your qualification, your experience and the nature of the project, but as a freelance developer with in-demand skills and experience, you'd be a fool not to charge at least $100/hr. It can go considerably higher than that. Web development is lower, but I don't know the going rates for that. I never did web projects.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, KoolHndLuke said:

I really hope you're exaggerating........because that's just an insult. Five dollars wouldn't even tempt me change the colors on something. 

haha Well I have never been asked that, but was just making a point of the logic of thinking of some people sometimes

[27X]

2 hours ago, DoctaSax said:

Now I'm curious what a 'full regular rate' looks like.

Depends entirely on the work and the want of that work.

 

Sakimichan earns about 70K a commission, which is why she quit her job at Bioware where she was earning about a quarter of that for about three times the workload.

 

BBoy earns about 14 an hour to >rent< his load order for two programs he didn't spend a second writing, and is essentially getting 6K a month for having written an 8K text file.

 

FOW got 2.1 million using pirated blender and gmod and sfm rigs and assets, though if they're smart they'd be redoing that and actually buying licenses.

 

 

 

[EgoBallistic]

1 hour ago, Kimy said:

My personal experience is just the reverse. My Patreon supporters are nothing but polite and respectful, while I keep getting rude, aggressive and entitled postings on LL by people who never would even think about throwing me a dime. I have never had any instance whatsoever where a supporter -demanded- me to make anything for them. They had suggestions, and yes, all things being equal, I DO prioritize suggestions from my supporters over the ones from people not supporting me.

That is good to hear.  Like I said, this was on Discord.  I am guessing that in order to make comments on Patreon they have to be a supporter, so they've already paid, and so they are more inclined to be polite to the author.  As you point out, people take free stuff for granted.

1 hour ago, Kimy said:

If I were to work on things I don't want to work on, I would feel compelled to charge a full regular rate, too. Which would probably end the discussion pretty quickly.

LOL definitely. 

[KoolHndLuke]

1 hour ago, Kimy said:

$100/hr. It can go considerably higher than that. Web development is lower

A tech I asked said web developers get paid about half that. Not sure how true that is.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Kimy said:

I really think so. As odd as it might sound, but people don't value free stuff. They take it for granted.

It's quite dependent on your qualification, your experience and the nature of the project, but as a freelance developer with in-demand skills and experience, you'd be a fool not to charge at least $100/hr. It can go considerably higher than that. Web development is lower, but I don't know the going rates for that. I never did web projects.

This is so true about the free stuff. 

 

I remember reading somewhere that someone posted a perfectly good couch for free on Craigslist. No one came to get it. 

 

He updated his listing and put a $20 price tag on it and then he was being swarmed with people wanting it.

[Tyrant99]

6 hours ago, Kimy said:

I don't think that's any different from regular software development. You build a new application using components made/written by others. People sell Java applications last time I checked, even when chances are that they didn't contribute to the API they are using. People sell games using middleware by 3rd party providers and art assets bought from an asset store. That a mod relies on stuff created by others is the most normal thing on Earth and doesn't make you obliged not to charge for your work. The only thing that matters is the licence of any 3rd party component allowing you to use their work in such a fashion.

I agree, it doesn't make you obliged to not charge for your work. As I said, I'm fairly laissez-faire about this stuff, I think people can make their own decisions about what they want to sell and what they want to pay for in general. But, when you start adding money to the mix, my preference is to know exactly where I'm at with everything.

 

In your example of developing an application or game and leveraging other work or assets, I can 100% wrap my head around this. Let's say someone spent hundreds or thousands of hours creating something and they've designed it specifically for the purpose of it being used by other developers. As a developer, maybe it can save you hundreds or thousands of hours of work because you don't have to recreate the wheel, and if it's being sold for a reasonable price, then it's kind of a no-brainer. - But this is a fairly clear-cut transaction, both parties know exactly where they are on the deal.

 

Modding someone else's game gets less clear-cut. Re: 

 

Monetizing mods has been mostly a disaster (Valve, CC).

 

And in other cases, issues between modders arise. - I recall some scenarios back in the day of certain paid mods getting taken down because they used FNIS and Fore didn't want his creation being used that way. - Fair enough, but just an example of how this stuff can play out when you're leveraging other modder's work/creations while the opinions and feelings of modding+money is all over the place, varying widely person to person within the modding community.

 

tldr:

• Buying a license from a developer sold with the explicit intention of it being used by other developers = makes perfect sense. 
• Monetizing mods for a game that you don't own the publishing rights to while navigating the tangled and controversial mess of leveraging work from other modders for profit = Too much of a can of worms imo.

 

But, to each their own...

 

7 hours ago, Kimy said:

Kinda OT, but as someone contemplating starting a new standalone game, too - how did you guys manage to blow so much cash on licences so early on in development? oO  I don't know a lot about the game you're making, but in 2019, there aren't a lot of tools left in the dev stack you wouldn't find a good OSS alternative for, starting with the engine itself. I think, I am still under $200 I spent on licences for stuff I bought for a previous game I made (~$20 for Aesprite, ~$50 on TexturePacker, and maybe $100 on art assets).

 

Sometimes I wonder where it all went too, but, I think it depends largely on the scope of what you're doing. 3D games tend to get a little pricier than 2D, for one thing. Ultimately, we just want to produce something that people will get some enjoyment out of, so I guess we see it as a bit of an investment in that regard. Certain assets turn out to be pretty indispensable such as software for designing behavior trees, streamlining animation work, particle effects, shader creation, lighting, rendering, camera work, art, sound, and of course, models, models, models, etc..

 

We have done some of our own modeling as well of course, but, we don't want to create every rock, tree, photorealistic grass, sconce, and floor tile, when we can focus on more unique and interesting stuff: