Patreon: Obligation and Entitlement

[KoolHndLuke]

20 minutes ago, Ankahet said:

Forgive me, but it very much seems you have an entitled attitude. One that suggests you should be able to use and have everything for free regardless of how hard others worked on it

I think he was referring to paid mods offered by Creation Club, not free content made outside of that. Also, he is an MA with an extensive list of mods, so he knows full well how much work goes into some mods.

[Kendo 2]

52 minutes ago, Ankahet said:

Forgive me, but it very much seems you have an entitled attitude. One that suggests you should be able to use and have everything for free regardless of how hard others worked on it.

You obviously don't know my reputation; outside of my being a massive dick...which I'm cool with because it's true.  Anyway, I fully support the creative rights of modders.  I'm also a proponent for banning/blacklisting people who steal modded content.  I don't poach content or take things that don't belong to me; and I DO NOT tolerate those who do.  People steal my content on a semi-regular basis and their attitudes are always the same; 'I don't care what Kendo says, I'm stealing his work anyway.'  THAT is entitlement.  BUT I have spies everywhere so the thieves eventually get caught.  Once that happens I am 100% balls deep in their ass.  There are some people you just don't fuck with.  ?

[Ankahet]

11 minutes ago, Kendo 2 said:

You obviously don't know my reputation; outside of my being a massive dick...which I'm cool with because it's true.  Anyway, I fully support the creative rights of modders.  I'm also a proponent for banning/blacklisting people who steal modded content.  I don't poach content or take things that don't belong to me; and I DO NOT tolerate those who do.  People steal my content on a semi-regular basis and their attitudes are always the same; 'I don't care what Kendo says, I'm stealing his work anyway.'  THAT is entitlement.  BUT I have spies everywhere so the thieves eventually get caught.  Once that happens I am 100% balls deep in their ass.  There are some people you just don't fuck with.  ?

Well, other than the "Dont fuck with me" part of the post, which really has nothing to do with the subject. Support comes in a number of ways, advertising, appreciation and monetary. In a very general sense, one could say as gamers, we show our appreciation to the producing company by purchasing the game, or creating content for the game, which in turn can lead others to purchasing the game, so on and so forth. Usually advertising is purchased, but, content creators all over the world provide a manner of free advertising via videos or blogposts. However, only two of those make production of the item, or content viable. If there is no monetary support for a game, as in, if they dont sell enough cpoies of it, or enough DLC, what-have-you for it, then the justification for creating the game is gone. The producer still has to pay the team whom put it together and spent time on it, so now, they are losing money.

 

This is not the case for mod creators, just works in a different way. Many people are ok with never making any money wither it be commission, or donation for creating their mods. Although I doubt many would argue with people throwing them a few bucks here and there because they enjoyed what was created. More in-depth mods take time to create, if the person works, and can only do it a few hours a day, or less, it is their free time they are giving up to produce it. Monetary support is appreciated, but not requred. However, if they have made it into a profession, and it is literally the thing they do the most, then they are giving up a lot more than a few hours of their time. At which point, without an uxillary income, makes that time very valuable.

 

I design mods as a hobby, but am a professional artist by trade. I do not draw/paint for free. Everything that comes out is either by commission or sits on patreon because I spend hours doing it, and it is my job. If people enjoy my work, they can either purchase it from me (if they want something custom) Or pay 1 whole dollar to literally see everything I do from start to finish on every piece, but, I dont give my time away in that aspect for free, at all. Its how I pay my bills and put food on my table. But I have run across a lot of people who argue I should just make it for them and do it for free. No, this is my job, I will not do it for free, no matter how much people ask.

 

It took me 11 years to get to the point that I can pay my bills and eat off money from producing art. Its not easy, it requires skill and a lot of time and I believe if it is something you do for a living and put a lot of time into, then people if they truly appreciate it, shouldnt have an issue donating a dollar or two here and there.

 

On the other subject, I dont have a problem telling people they are a dick, or an asshole, but the more a person is a dick/asshole to me, directly, the more and more I become completely disinterested in anything are doing or have to say as I find it a completely repulsive trait in a person.

[Ankahet]

1 hour ago, KoolHndLuke said:

I think he was referring to paid mods offered by Creation Club, not free content made outside of that. Also, he is an MA with an extensive list of mods, so he knows full well how much work goes into some mods.

Ill agree with the creators cllub thing, that was a horrible idea, implemented in an even worse way. Im just saying that for the work and time that go into this kind of stuff, if people are truly appreciative, then they shouldnt have an issue supporting someone monetarily. I could type the whole thing out again but its explained in my reply to him xD

[Kendo 2]

Paywalling mods is the Dollar General version of microtransactions.

[KoolHndLuke]

41 minutes ago, Ankahet said:

if people are truly appreciative, then they shouldnt have an issue supporting someone monetarily

Their answer; If mod authors are truly altruistic, then they shouldn't have any issues at all with users and honor ☝️Tradition?! Oh, and give us whatever the hell we want.... you know because we're special and shit. 

 

From what I've observed, you can't rely on users to reciprocate much of anything by their own free will. But they must be persuaded, not outright demanded.

[Ankahet]

2 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

Their answer; If mod authors are truly altruistic, then they shouldn't have any issues at all with users and honor ☝️Tradition?! Oh, and give us whatever the hell we want.... you know because we're special and shit. 

 

From what I've observed, you can't rely on users to reciprocate much of anything by their own free will. But they must be persuaded, not outright demanded.

Oh I know, fortunately I dont rely on it as a source of income xD

[KoolHndLuke]

16 minutes ago, Ankahet said:

Oh I know, fortunately I dont rely on it as a source of income xD

From what I'm reading, there are some good ways to make money on the net. But, any and all of it requires talent and/or much work. For instance, I had no idea that people could make money off of blogs.

[Ankahet]

31 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

From what I'm reading, there are some good ways to make money on the net. But, any and all of it requires talent and/or much work. For instance, I had no idea that people could make money off of blogs.

There are, it is very difficult though, and takes a lot of persistence.

[Lupine00]

7 hours ago, Ankahet said:

It also seems you severely underestimate the time and work it takes to make some of these "Mods". The only reason it is considered a mod, is because the base game is indeed finished. However that shouldnt suggest that these frameworks, or completely new quest lines, scripts and such, are not work intensive. It takes a lot of time and effort to create them. If you believe it doesnt, then you havent done anything like that, and if you have, then sad to say, you are just a fool for believing it.

I said nothing of the sort. You chose to infer those things I didn't say to start an argument. There's no argument. I didn't say those things. Please stop.

 

Even the premise of your claim is absurd. Why would anyone suggest what you claim I'm suggesting? When we all know very well it's false?

 

I am so incredibly tired of people telling me how much work it takes to make a mod, as if I didn't know.

 

Often people who do not make any mods tell me this.

I find that pretty ironic. Given the years - decades - of my life spent on game and mod development, that somebody can accuse me of: "If you believe it doesnt, then you havent done anything like that, and if you have, then sad to say, you are just a fool for believing it."

 

That is just trolling, plain and simple. Egregiously, enraging, BS, intended to trigger an affronted emotional response.

Why would you write that?

What sort of person are you?

 

And if you think there's any equivalence between the time spent making a mod as a hobby (not a business), and working full-time on a game, you are seriously mistaken. The game industry is built on 72 hour weeks and endless crunch. Maybe Kimy works like that on her mods, but I doubt there are many modders who do.

 

If I don't work on my mod, my mod doesn't get updated.

If I don't work, I go bankrupt. See the difference?

That's the difference between a job and a hobby.

 

 

I don't believe there is a huge group of people on LL who think that mods just happen for zero effort and take no time to make.

 

Rather, the need to continuously restate and drag over the effort required, is manufactured by virtue signallers who make a career of pompously telling us how long it takes to make mods, or who are simply trying to ingratiate themselves with modder X.

 

The existence of endless requests for features in mods has nothing at all to do with this understanding.

When people ask for features in good faith, they just want to be a part of the process. Their requests are only obligations if you choose to make them so.

 

We don't need these patronising informers who constantly restate the same tired lines.

We already know this takes forever.

A couple of weeks back, it took my entire weekend just to figure out how to build plugins with native functions for the latest SKSE in VS2017.

You'd think there are examples, existing projects to copy, it should take a few minutes?

But this is modding. So, you'd be wrong. The samples are useless.

Unless you've done it before, it takes far longer to work out the problems.

That's normal. Everything is like that. Every little task has hours of snags you have to learn the workarounds for before you can proceed.

 

So, please tell me, why on earth would I suggest modding is zero effort?

It's just a BS point, made up to annoy, and make me waste a lot of time posting this stupid rant.

 

 

 

I separate this issue from modders who apologise for not doing more because of time, because that's something different:

a) they are speaking from personal experience, not just trying to look knowledgeable.

b) they are venting their legitimate frustration about how long it takes to do things.

c) they feel bad that they couldn't do more, even though what they did, they gave for free.

d) they feel bad they can't fulfil every request, even though they know that's a dumb way to feel.

 

 

But Ankharet isn't doing that. He/she is just insulting me, and insulting the intelligence of readers of this forum - who know very well the effort required to make a mod - or something larger.

[Kendo 2]

2 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

It's just a BS point, made up to annoy, and make me waste a lot of time posting this stupid rant.

Hey, I was accused of thinking I can take whatever mods I want; basically calling me a mod thief.  After reading your post I think I was too kind to the person who leveled the accusation against me.  I do find it hilarious that someone with less modding experience than you or I is attempting to 'put us in our places' as far as modding goes.  It's almost like we're guilty of modding wrong-think because we have our own opinions.  But it is current year internet so....MEH. ?

[Ankahet]

2 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I said nothing of the sort. Snipping the rest

The fact that you are attempting to defend yourself so adamantly makes me believe otherwise.

 

Bringing up the part of "People who dont even make mods tell me this" is completely irrelevant.

 

Annnnd to be honest I kind of stopped reading halfway down because I am not interested in an overly emotional response which is exactly what you gave.

 

As to your question of "What kind of person am I?"

 

Answer: I am the type of person whom when reading something, examines the words carefully to structure a well thought-out reply. I am also the type of person who has been around a lot of people, spoken to a lot of people and observed a ton of human behavior. Giving me an insight as tot he motivations behind why people do what they do, and say what they say 99% of the time. Out of all the times I have told someone they are doing something, or saying something because of a particular reason, I have not been incorrect.

 

Now, based on your novel-sized response and reaction, that tells me that what I said is correct and you are offended because you are in disbelief someone could say such words to you, damaging your special-snowflake fragility. I now suppose I am writing a novel of my own, but, at least mine is based in behavioral science and fact.

 

Also, if someone works on a mod from the time they wake up, to the time they go to sleep, or for a minimum of seven hours a day, or more for a serious amount of time, releases it, then continues working on it to provide bug fixes, updates and additional features, then yes, it is pretty much the equal of production. It is production, and again, to believe or say it isn't, is just plain foolish. But, seeing as I have a lengthy mod to work on, I also now believe it is a waste of my time past this to attempt to explain it to you. Have a wonderful day.

[Ankahet]

2 hours ago, Kendo 2 said:

Hey, I was accused of thinking I can take whatever mods I want; basically calling me a mod thief.  After reading your post I think I was too kind to the person who leveled the accusation against me.  I do find it hilarious that someone with less modding experience than you or I is attempting to 'put us in our places' as far as modding goes.  It's almost like we're guilty of modding wrong-think because we have our own opinions.  But it is current year internet so....MEH. ?

I didnt say you were a mod-thief, I said nothing of the sort. Also, you have no idea what kind of experience I have. Simply because I have not created, or, uploaded a ton of mods for skyrim. That is true, my programming experience lies in other places. Designing user interfaces, creating texture files. Designing and rigging mesh models. Working with materials, surfaces and normal maps. Granted none of that was for Skyrim, or, Bethesda's games. At the time it was for Firefall produced by Red 5 Studios. But, the lack of content on one site shouldnt suggest a lack of experience or knowledge. That is ignorance.

[KoolHndLuke]

 It's what's for dinner! 

[Kendo 2]

21 minutes ago, Ankahet said:

<snip>

(states the obvious) You have a real hard-on for name calling and internet correcting people for things that DO NOT FUCKING CONCERN YOU.

 

 

@KoolHndLuke

That Shatner meme...XD

[Ankahet]

4 minutes ago, Kendo 2 said:

(states the obvious) You have a real hard-on for name calling and internet correcting people for things that DO NOT FUCKING CONCERN YOU.

 

 

@KoolHndLuke

That Shatner meme...XD

I didnt call anyone any names. I simply stated certain actions were either ignorant, or foolish. But, youll be another I wont be replying to. Hell, you yourself said you were a dick, and, seems you are right, so, enjoy that and surround yourself with other dicks, see how that sausage party works out for you in the end. Byeeeee.

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, Ankahet said:

The fact that you are attempting to defend yourself so adamantly makes me believe otherwise.

That is more trolling. You deny my defence because I made one!

 

What would have convinced you? A half-hearted defence? No defence at all?

Absurd.

 

1 hour ago, Ankahet said:

Annnnd to be honest I kind of stopped reading halfway down because I am not interested in an overly emotional response which is exactly what you gave.

Again, another dirty little rhetorical trick that denies the ability of anyone to respond to your lies and correct them.

 

The only reason you'd say this is to give affront. It is a thinly disguised insult, that is all, and I doubt it's true. As you say below, you make calculated replies - that I do believe. You wouldn't pass up a chance to gather ammunition.

 

1 hour ago, Ankahet said:

Answer: I am the type of person whom when reading something, examines the words carefully to structure a well thought-out reply.

I think you are, but you do so with malice and an intent to mislead, provoke and annoy. You certainly didn't effectively address my actual arguments.

 

1 hour ago, Ankahet said:

Now, based on your novel-sized response and reaction, that tells me that what I said is correct and you are offended because you are in disbelief someone could say such words to you, damaging your special-snowflake fragility. I now suppose I am writing a novel of my own, but, at least mine is based in behavioral science and fact.

In your assertion only. You do not provide an argument as such, you simply assert authority, when I suspect you have none.

 

I notice you don't claim to be a 24-7 modder who lives off his mods, or a full-time developer. Even if you did, argument from authority is a weak argument.

 

 

1 hour ago, Ankahet said:

Also, if someone works on a mod from the time they wake up, to the time they go to sleep, or for a minimum of seven hours a day, or more for a serious amount of time, releases it, then continues working on it to provide bug fixes, updates and additional features, then yes, it is pretty much the equal of production.

I believe I addressed this, but you choose to ignore it. Purposely, I suspect. For those people the mod is not a hobby, it's a job. They are an outlier case at best. You can cavil about people who have full-time hobbies, but they are even rarer. Most modders are not full-time, most professional developers are; to pretend the exceptions prove a rule is a poor basis for reasoning at best. People like Kimy and Kom are not the norm amongst modders, and it's questionable that even they are depending on their mod-related work for financial survival.

 

 

I won't make any further response to your lies and rhetorical tricks. There is a limit to how far I will go to defend against an insidious, and methodically executed attack.

 

You used trick after trick that didn't deal with the substance of my response, but instead attacked the legitimacy of anyone responding to you at all.

 

I'm out of this thread. A genuine debate is impossible in this climate.

[Kendo 2]

@Lupine00

Don't quit the thread; just ignore him and his sophistry.

[Mr. Otaku]

Man, this thread is

[KoolHndLuke]

I saw this the other day while I was looking for strip poker online. BTW, those strip poker games were shit and somebody could probably make good money coming up with something better. A lot of old farts play them to pass the time.

 

[t.ara]

On 5/31/2019 at 3:36 PM, Lupine00 said:

Basically... No.

 

What you did there, is confuse modding a game for a bit of fun, with making a game from scratch, which is work.

 

There is a huge difference between modding a finished game I already enjoy playing - that's a hobby - and making an entirely new game - that's a JOB.

 

I already have a job, so it's a non-starter of a proposition.

 

Also, if I wanted to make a new game from scratch, I wouldn't make it for free, I'd make it purely for profit, with a commercial engine and a decent sized team - so it could be released in a practical time frame to make money.

 

 

Most modders are modding for a hobby, so they don't want to pay.

 

But there's no need to rely on free stuff if you're making commercial product; it's just another business cost you balance cost vs benefit.

Opinion or not, such comments in the upper red lines are a totally shock for all the enthusiasted people, who work into existing games (modder). Modding is under no circumstance a hobby/job/work, which has to be compared with creating a game from scratch. In no way. We understand what you want to say herewith, but that´s not a good way, to compare modding with creating games. Depending what you do inside your mods it can take the action, what is also necessary if you would create a new game-and this happening is caused mostly under more difficult circumstances depending on missing tools and a fixed-existing game-engine, btw.

"Creating games" is actually much more easy, than in the past time! <this is a suiting statement.

And the difference between hobby, job and work? This term is mostly sort of personal impressions, feel and taste.

 

 

p.s after re-reading i think i catched somehow an opinion of a third-party statement into a new (Lupine00´s) context...i did not read the beforegoing thread context. Perhaps or maybe this statement hasn´t been made by Lupine00 and it appeared more early somehow-my fault, not important anymore-

LOL

 

 

 

[KoolHndLuke]

6 minutes ago, t.ara said:

what is also necessary if you would create a new game-and this happening is caused mostly under more difficult circumstances depending on missing tools and a fixed-existing game-engine, btw.

I always thought that it is hard to work within the existing framework of a game to create some mods. I read about MAs complaining about things all the time- like the cell reset bug in FO4. Zilav criticized that game harshly in several posts saying it was a huge pain in the ass to mod.

[Mr. Otaku]

13 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

I saw this the other day while I was looking for strip poker online. BTW, those strip poker games were shit and somebody could probably make good money coming up with something better. A lot of old farts play them to pass the time.

 

The thing with those online garbage games is that they pick out random art from all over the internet and plaster them on their "games" and websites. If you ever wonder why so many filler mobile games have the exact same art and ad structures, this is why. The original artists in most cases don't even know their art is being used in such things, the ones that do either don't bother to file any lawsuit or get some hush money from the game makers.

 

This particular image i'm using, i took from a hentai visual novel blog website, where they review visual novels and stuff. This should tell you how easy it is to snip out random drawings and tape them together into something else. It's like how the penis enlargement scam pills use random scenes from porn.

[KoolHndLuke]

4 minutes ago, Mr.Otaku said:

It's like how the penis enlargement scam pills use random scenes from porn.

You mean that shit really doesn't work?  lol 

[t.ara]

14 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

I always thought that it is hard to work within the existing framework of a game to create some mods. I read about MAs complaining about things all the time- like the cell reset bug in FO4. Zilav criticized that game harshly in several posts saying it was a huge pain in the ass to mod.

Really?

FO4 HAS such a NIF-EXPORTER / it´s the great original export-tool from bethesda, spended in the WRONG GAME  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IT MEANS YOU CAN DO EVERYTHING CONCERNING NEW MESHES AND GET SAME RESULTS CREATING PROFESSIONAL GAMEBRYO-ASSETS-work into a game which is-boring?:

But what shall i mod inside of FO4???? The game is not offering a suiting background-most bad open world-it´s an apocalyptic-shooter-sorry, poor story, poor graphics (not quality is meant here) but poor textures...anyway it comes with perfect working 64-bit creationkit so far-LOL.