sse Paradise Halls Enhanced (pahe) Special Edition with the customary addons

[CliftonJD]

1 hour ago, DonQuiWho said:

IIRC, I could use a DD caller to the same end. 

yes, you can. this is why i don't believe we need respawning freebie collars with so many other ways of getting them

9 minutes ago, ace400 said:

Thank you, at least i know that it can work now ^^ 

 

I will dive in and hopefully find the problem

welcome

Edited June 22, 2022 by CliftonJD

[TrollAutokill]

2 hours ago, ace400 said:

Hi, i am somewhat new here and was wondering if PAHE works for Skyrim AE??? i searched through here and couldnt find an answer. Also i installed it, but its not there despite no errors.

I just posted a short blog describing how I had PAHE working with Skyrim AE. Take a look at it.

 

[DonQuiWho]

3 hours ago, CliftonJD said:

that was Paradise Halls Family Feud, made for a much older version of paradise halls, its weapon enchantment lost ability to function when original paradise halls upgraded to 7.0 and the weapon cost was based on those enchantments so you can't really change the cost in those regards, but i can make it work if somebody wants to port the meshes over from Le. 

should be able to work out vendor locations tho

dunno of a way of adding a toggle to the respawn flag assigned to placed items so that would come down to an extra esp with still no fomod

it only seems more tedious cuz tak has changed it to a different mod outside of the paradise halls and pahe perspective. in pahe the early stages aren't just good for training them not to run, but for training them to fight. once their combat training is high enough, you start respect training.

the only thing handwavium about it is that sse doesn't support working chain physics like Le had as these are intended to be leashing collars. 

another thing missing in skyrim is npc lockpicking. if you're looking for a more immersive feeling to leash collars, there should be a lock level multiplier added to the leash collars so the escape chances could be based on their lockpicking skills and if your slaves get too escapey, you can buy or forge better locks. this is why i don't believe in the dom way of doing things, that there's no possible way of restraining your slaves that can't be escaped from, That to me is the immersion breaker

 

Thanks, as ever, for the reply

 

1 - I'd not really bother with 'Family Feud'   It wasn't very good, so no need to add a millstone round your neck, as ppl will want you to 'fix' it  LOL.  Now DRES trader WAS good, and did seem to work most of the time, but frankly, with AYGAS, there's no need for such

2 - Vendors/locations etc.   it's your mod.  I merely added my tuppenceworth.  Just go where your heart takes you ... ?

3 - DOM?  Yeah, it's good.  I use it, but not the whole monty as I'm not into/have too little time for all the 'deep meaningful relationship' stuff.  It's a great piece of work for those who are, and have the time, so long may it continue to run parallel to PAHE

4 - those wretched collars again!  Why not just leave things as they are?  Antelopia has sprung on ahead and done a patch that can remove them for people who want to.  So why waste your time?

5 - Slave 'Collar lockpicking'.  Now there's a thought!  Am I right in that DD collars will act just like the PAHE enchanted ones?  If so, you might want to talk to @Kharos about his mod below.  It's excellent, and has improved on every generation, AND it has a, chance built in, lockpick equivalent ...

• Escape system: If enabled in MCM this allows NPCs to struggle and maybe escape their devices.

...which can be turned on and off depending on what the player wants

 

@Kharos hangs about on the PAHE etc threads ocassionally, so maybe it might be worth a chat to see if you and he could come up with something that could link that to/do that in PAHE, assuming that it may be an add on for those happy to add DD dependence? 

 

-------------

 

EDIT:  Ho Hum!  Sorry, missed this one, but the point about the escape system should still be relevant (maybe more so?)

 

3 hours ago, DonQuiWho said:

IIRC, I could use a DD caller to the same end. 

yes, you can. this is why i don't believe we need respawning freebie collars with so many other ways of getting them

 

----------------

 

 

As ever, tuppenceworth, for what it's worth

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by DonQuiWho

[Farsh-nuke]

26 minutes ago, DonQuiWho said:

 

3 - DOM?  Yeah, it's good.  I use it, but not the whole monty as I'm not into/have too little time for all the 'deep meaningful relationship' stuff.  It's a great piece of work for those who are, and have the time, so long may it continue to run parallel to PAHE
 

4 - those wretched collars again!  Why not just leave things as they are?  Antelopia has sprung on ahead and done a patch that can remove them for people who want to.  So why waste your time?

 

Ironically what I like about DOM is all the depth to the characters and what I dislike is all the 'immersive' gameplay Antiope likes lol

Lets be honest if skyrim was realistic the main character would be a psychological mess and this mod would be hellish for anyone with a conscience. Instead it's an abstracted unimmersive fantasy videogame that lets us be distanced from the horrors of what would be the case if it were real.

[DonQuiWho]

2 hours ago, Farsh-nuke said:

Ironically what I like about DOM is all the depth to the characters and what I dislike is all the 'immersive' gameplay Antiope likes lol

Lets be honest if skyrim was realistic the main character would be a psychological mess and this mod would be hellish for anyone with a conscience. Instead it's an abstracted unimmersive fantasy videogame that lets us be distanced from the horrors of what would be the case if it were real.

 

Brilliant!  Kryten on Crack ... LOL

[CliftonJD]

5 hours ago, DonQuiWho said:

If so, you might want to talk to @Kharos about his mod below.  It's excellent, and has improved on every generation, AND it has a, chance built in, lockpick equivalent ...

• Escape system: If enabled in MCM this allows NPCs to struggle and maybe escape their devices.

...which can be turned on and off depending on what the player wants

 

@Kharos hangs about on the PAHE etc threads ocassionally, so maybe it might be worth a chat to see if you and he could come up with something that could link that to/do that in PAHE, assuming that it may be an add on for those happy to add DD dependence? 

 

thanks, i'll take a look

 

 

[Farsh-nuke]

Yeah sorry that was perhaps a shade mean.

By the way Clifton I tried the whole "I'm training a submissive in whiterun." thing and was confused because the language of the start implies she is already enslaved but obviously that can't actually be possible or maybe DOM interfered because I then had to enslave her (through DOM as it happened) to get the slave dialogues to show.. I might just be dumb here but I thought I'd let you know how that went

[Antiope_Apollonia]

11 hours ago, CliftonJD said:

this is why i don't believe in the dom way of doing things, that there's no possible way of restraining your slaves that can't be escaped from,

That's just not really accurate.  If you want to just tie up untrained slaves and leave them somewhere for weeks, I think they'd eventually escape.  That seems reasonable; if you don't die of thirst first, you'll eventually be able to struggle out of almost anything.  But in practice, even just using rope, "I'm going to make sure you stay here" will reliably restrain a freshly captured slave long enough to finish the dungeon or whatever and then come back and collect your captures at the end.  (Apropos of which, it'd be convenient to have a path to that dialogue in the enslavement dialogue tree as an alternative to "Now keep your mouth shut and follow me.")  DoM slaves also won't escape their DD/ZAP restraints, and those restraints limit their willingness and ability to try to escape, too.  In general, only the very most defiant slaves will try to flee if you gag, blindfold, and straitjacket them.  And the cheatcollars work with DoM, too.

 

It's a good system, and it adds a lot to the slaves' personalities and relationships.  When a slave is especially obnoxious, it might lead me to decide to "sell her to some horrible orcs."  In contrast, when a slave is too scared to even try to escape, you have a great early bonding opportunity.  In my current playthrough, I just made a place in my household for a slave I'd initially intended to sell, because while her friend was driving me nuts with her relentless escape attempts, this one just needed a lot of hugs.  Good girl!  You'll be okay.  I'll take good care of you, sweetie!  Don't worry your pretty little head.  

 

Each to her own, but I don't know why anyone want to miss out on all that with the cheatcollars.

[CliftonJD]

 

3 hours ago, Farsh-nuke said:

Yeah sorry that was perhaps a shade mean.

By the way Clifton I tried the whole "I'm training a submissive in whiterun." thing and was confused because the language of the start implies she is already enslaved but obviously that can't actually be possible or maybe DOM interfered because I then had to enslave her (through DOM as it happened) to get the slave dialogues to show.. I might just be dumb here but I thought I'd let you know how that went

ok, thanks for the info

1 hour ago, Antiope_Apollonia said:

(Apropos of which, it'd be convenient to have a path to that dialogue in the enslavement dialogue tree as an alternative to "Now keep your mouth shut and follow me.") 

are you asking for a direct tie-up dialogue from enslavement?

1 hour ago, Antiope_Apollonia said:

DoM slaves also won't escape their DD/ZAP restraints, and those restraints limit their willingness and ability to try to escape, too.  In general, only the very most defiant slaves will try to flee if you gag, blindfold, and straitjacket them.  And the cheatcollars work with DoM, too.

blindfolds are already designed to behave exactly the same as the leash collars so that would be why you obtained those results

1 hour ago, Antiope_Apollonia said:

Each to her own, but I don't know why anyone want to miss out on all that with the cheatcollars.

no, the extra challenge wasn't enough to scare me. what chased me out was the mcm changes he made for the slave arrays, mcm just too slow to use in dom

Edited June 23, 2022 by CliftonJD

[Antiope_Apollonia]

54 minutes ago, CliftonJD said:

are you asking for a direct tie-up dialogue from enslavement?

Basically.  Right now, you have a dialogue for "follow" or a dialogue for "wait".  But "wait" is fairly pointless, because obviously, a freshly captured slave isn't going to wait on command.  If it were me, I'd just replace that with a dialogue that links to the "I'm going to make sure you stay here" tree, but adding it instead of replacing would also do the trick.  Maybe something like, "I'll be back to collect you later."

 

57 minutes ago, CliftonJD said:

blindfolds are already designed to behave exactly the same as the leash collars so that would be why you obtained those results

Not correct.  Blindfolds have their own behaviour in DoM.  I have leashcollars disabled.

 

58 minutes ago, CliftonJD said:

what chased me out was the mcm changes he made for the slave arrays, mcm just too slow to use in dom

I can't say I need to get into the MCM very often, but I've never experienced any issues with this at all.  

[TrollAutokill]

7 hours ago, CliftonJD said:

mcm changes he made for the slave arrays, mcm just too slow to use in dom

Edited 7 hours ago by CliftonJD

The slave array is handled as fast in both MCM PAHE and dom last time I checked and that was after your last change which corrected the number of slaves counter handling. But I will do another check with Elephant when I get a chance.

[CliftonJD]

7 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said:

Basically.  Right now, you have a dialogue for "follow" or a dialogue for "wait".  But "wait" is fairly pointless, because obviously, a freshly captured slave isn't going to wait on command.  If it were me, I'd just replace that with a dialogue that links to the "I'm going to make sure you stay here" tree, but adding it instead of replacing would also do the trick.  Maybe something like, "I'll be back to collect you later."

wish i could remember what version of pahe it was we had that feature, i'd be able to look over it for what might have caused the problems with it the last time we had it...that was before i started working on pahe so i guess we can try it and hope we don't get the same results

 

 

1 hour ago, TrollAutokill said:

The slave array is handled as fast in both MCM PAHE and dom last time I checked and that was after your last change which corrected the number of slaves counter handling. But I will do another check with Elephant when I get a chance.

this is the pahe mcm code that dom changes:

Spoiler

        AddHeaderOption("$Pahe_Slaves_page")
        ;while (i < PAH.GetSlaveCount()) && (i < 43)
        ;changing this to use the slavecount is what slows the mcm to a crawl
        while (i < PAH.slaveArray.length) && (i < 43)

even after making note of the problem in the comments, dom still uses this: 

Spoiler

       AddHeaderOption("$Pahe_Slaves_page")
        while (i < slaveCount) && (i < 43)

same issue with 2nd and 3rd slave pages

[TrollAutokill]

24 minutes ago, CliftonJD said:

wish i could remember what version of pahe it was we had that feature, i'd be able to look over it for what might have caused the problems with it the last time we had it...that was before i started working on pahe so i guess we can try it and hope we don't get the same results

 

 

this is the pahe mcm code that dom changes:

  Hide contents

        AddHeaderOption("$Pahe_Slaves_page")
        ;while (i < PAH.GetSlaveCount()) && (i < 43)
        ;changing this to use the slavecount is what slows the mcm to a crawl
        while (i < PAH.slaveArray.length) && (i < 43)

even after making note of the problem in the comments, dom still uses this: 

  Hide contents

       AddHeaderOption("$Pahe_Slaves_page")
        while (i < slaveCount) && (i < 43)

same issue with 2nd and 3rd slave pages

This is not an issue, slaveCount is an int and is set to the number of slaves, it should even be a tiny bit faster than calling the length of the array.

Edited June 23, 2022 by TrollAutokill

[CliftonJD]

16 minutes ago, TrollAutokill said:

This is not an issue, slaveCount is an int and is set to the number of slaves, it should even be a tiny bit faster than calling the length of the array.

no, its not a tiny bit faster, its Much slower. i tried it both ways cuz you had recommended i make the array changes in pahcore like you did in dom, but this part of the mcm requires those arrays how pahe has them

[TrollAutokill]

39 minutes ago, CliftonJD said:

no, its not a tiny bit faster, its Much slower. i tried it both ways cuz you had recommended i make the array changes in pahcore like you did in dom, but this part of the mcm requires those arrays how pahe has them

Those are two different situations you're describing. The pah.GetSlaveCount() was very inefficient and was called for each step of the loop. This was corrected both in dom and PAHE almost at the same time, and yes the new method is much faster.

 

Now the code is not exactly the same in DoM and PAHE because getting the array length in DoM will always return 256, the maximum number of slaves. So PAHE uses the array length and dom the array counter, both fixed values, not recomputed for each step of the loop, and both are equal to the number of slaves. Both give same latency results with Elephant script.

 

Edited June 23, 2022 by TrollAutokill

[CliftonJD]

54 minutes ago, TrollAutokill said:

Those are two different situations you're describing. The pah.GetSlaveCount() was very inefficient and was called for each step of the loop. This was corrected both in dom and PAHE almost at the same time, and yes the new method is much faster.

 

Now the code is not exactly the same in DoM and PAHE because getting the array length in DoM will always return 256, the maximum number of slaves. So PAHE uses the array length and dom the array counter, both fixed values, not recomputed for each step of the loop, and both are equal to the number of slaves. Both give same latency results with Elephant script.

 

ahh, so you're saying getting slaveCount defined as an integer getting the value once as PAH.GetSlaveCount() is faster than just looking at PAH.GetSlaveCount() each time...makes perfect sense actually. i somehow missed that in areas with the ArrayLength so it ended up a mix of both old and new methods, correcting this for next update along with a newer note to retest the area that had tested slower

[TrollAutokill]

54 minutes ago, CliftonJD said:

ahh, so you're saying getting slaveCount defined as an integer getting the value once as PAH.GetSlaveCount() is faster than just looking at PAH.GetSlaveCount() each time...makes perfect sense actually. i somehow missed that in areas with the ArrayLength so it ended up a mix of both old and new methods, correcting this for next update along with a newer note to retest the area that had tested slower

Exactly, GetSlaveCount() was going around the array to count all entries not equal to None, so yes it was slow. Nothing wrong with array.length it's also just an integer, and it's fast enough to call it at each step of a loop.

Edited June 23, 2022 by TrollAutokill

[Jasmine92]

3 hours ago, TrollAutokill said:

This is not an issue, slaveCount is an int and is set to the number of slaves, it should even be a tiny bit faster than calling the length of the array.

1 hour ago, CliftonJD said:

ahh, so you're saying getting slaveCount defined as an integer getting the value once as PAH.GetSlaveCount() is faster than just looking at PAH.GetSlaveCount() each time...makes perfect sense actually. i somehow missed that in areas with the ArrayLength so it ended up a mix of both old and new methods, correcting this for next update along with a newer note to retest the area that had tested slower

 

I was reading up on Papyrus execution speed and latency a couple of days ago, because script lag came up as a problem on a different thread. I stumbled upon some useful information on the matter in some reddit threads. Maybe the information is helpful:

 

A few script execution speed PSAs

 

And some useful links in yausd's answer here: How do you hack papyrus to run fast?

[TrollAutokill]

37 minutes ago, Jasmine92 said:

 

I was reading up on Papyrus execution speed and latency a couple of days ago, because script lag came up as a problem on a different thread. I stumbled upon some useful information on the matter in some reddit threads. Maybe the information is helpful:

 

A few script execution speed PSAs

 

And some useful links in yausd's answer here: How do you hack papyrus to run fast?

I must admit most of the PAHE code is very well organized. Most of the computations are linked with player interaction, and a limited amount is done each tick.

 

I tried to keep this strategy with DoM, but I still didn't get the chance to scale up to above 10 slaves to see what happens...

Edited June 23, 2022 by TrollAutokill

[Martok73]

On 6/21/2022 at 10:40 PM, CliftonJD said:

but you're right the recipe is shit, why in hell he gave it such rare ingredients only to add respawning collars makes no sense.

Perhaps change the recipe? Or at least change the glow dust part of it?

 

On 6/21/2022 at 10:40 PM, CliftonJD said:

what do you think about buying the additional collars from merchants instead of them respawning, i think the kaajiit merchants might stock those as well as the cat in the felglow slaver camp

I like the idea of khajiit merchants selling them, and it kinda makes sense, I mean they're drug dealers already so wouldn't be too much of a stretch for them to get into slavery as well. Just would have to figure out a fair price that isn't too high nor too low either, something a lower level character might be able to get but not stock up? IDK finding a good price might be difficult but I really like the idea.

 

On 6/22/2022 at 3:33 AM, DonQuiWho said:

Caravans tho' as you can go game 'weeks' without being able to find one of those

They are actually very easy to find, as they travel between Whiterun and Solitude and can be found outside one or the other of those two cities the majority of the time.

 

On 6/22/2022 at 9:27 AM, Antiope_Apollonia said:

They're not just "cheaty"; they're counterproductive.  You're making the training process much more tedious than it needs to be if you take attempting to escape out of the equation.  Punishing escape attempts is the single biggest training opportunity you get. 

 

Plus, it just makes the slaves less believable characters.  I get that there's magic in the world of Tamriel, but the leash collars just feel like handwavium rather than a consistent application of Skyrim magic.  The different ways different slaves react to being collared is one of the interesting things DoM adds.  Some just relentlessly try to escape until you break them (60 resignation, not "broken" mood), but that's pretty rare.  Some are too scared to ever try to escape, and they're basically just catatonic balls of tears.  Some repeatedly call for help, but never run away.  Some try a mixture of strategies.  Etc.

Honestly if you don't like them then don't use them, nobody is forcing you to, but some of us like them and thus we do use them, and have no issues with immersion. We all play this game differently and that is a good thing, it would be extremely boring if we all played the same. To me it makes sense they respawn, other things in other places where the dragonborn is friendly respawn just like the collars, and to me it makes sense that if a npc gives you permission to take things, that they would eventually replace the items you take. The collars themselves also make perfect sense to me, with magic in the world as open and abundant as it is, along with daedric artifacts and such it makes perfect sense that someone would enchant a collar to prevent a slave from running away. Think along the same lines and terms as the shock/explosive collars in the Fallout series. They do very well in preventing slaves from running away for fear of getting a massive shock or worse their head blown off, so a leash collar in Skyrim filled with magic makes perfect sense and is totally immersive if you look at it from that point of view.

 

 

[DonQuiWho]

@CliftonJD

 

In case it passed you by, you have a fan.

 

And in his list of Dependencies ...

 

Paradise Halls Enhanced SE  I know some of you will find this requirement egregious, but the fact is I never play the game without that whip, and I also think the collars are cool.

 

?????

 

 

 

 

[Farsh-nuke]

Clifton is a modding god who is to be praised for his work

[CliftonJD]

13 hours ago, Martok73 said:

Perhaps change the recipe? Or at least change the glow dust part of it?

was thinking what would we change it to, then thought, how bout mudcrab chittin. its readily available, but still provides a challenge until the higher levels

13 hours ago, Martok73 said:

like the idea of khajiit merchants selling them, and it kinda makes sense, I mean they're drug dealers already so wouldn't be too much of a stretch for them to get into slavery as well. Just would have to figure out a fair price that isn't too high nor too low either, something a lower level character might be able to get but not stock up? IDK finding a good price might be difficult but I really like the idea.

ya, they're at 150 now, but with that as a base price it goes up alot to the beginner. thinking we make that the same price as iron body armor, but lower the cost of the ingredient iron slave collar to the same as an imperial shield

7 hours ago, DonQuiWho said:

@CliftonJD

 

In case it passed you by, you have a fan.

 

And in his list of Dependencies ...

 

Paradise Halls Enhanced SE  I know some of you will find this requirement egregious, but the fact is I never play the game without that whip, and I also think the collars are cool.

 

?????

 

 

 

 

ohh, that is nice

[Martok73]

8 hours ago, CliftonJD said:

was thinking what would we change it to, then thought, how bout mudcrab chittin. its readily available, but still provides a challenge until the higher levels

Haven't killed a mudcrab in so long forgot what they drop, lol. Sounds interesting, another possibility could be something like bone dust, or perhaps frostbite venom, just spitballing here since the early game main quest involves Bleak Falls Barrow and both bone dust and the spider stuff is readily available but for a low level char that hasn't used any cheats or exploits would still be a little challenging, perhaps.

 

8 hours ago, CliftonJD said:

ya, they're at 150 now, but with that as a base price it goes up alot to the beginner. thinking we make that the same price as iron body armor, but lower the cost of the ingredient iron slave collar to the same as an imperial shield

150 to 200 gold sounds pretty reasonable for a leash collar, and maybe 50-75 for a normal iron one? Just a thought, can't remember how much an imperial shield cost off the top of my head, lol. Maybe even include the book to be able to craft the DD stuff for like 500g or something, give an alternative option to be able to get the book without having to touch the College of Winterhold. I know I would love that option personally as not every playthrough I do involves the college nor makes sense to involve them. Oh and should add the whip too, would make sense they would sell them along with collars I think.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Martok73

[Farsh-nuke]

Don't mind me. I'm just quietly bitter that a feature I love is being removed lol

Adding the option to buy magic leashes is nice, Please don't remove the free respawning magic leash collars. Antiope already created a patch for people who don't like them