sse Paradise Halls Enhanced (pahe) Special Edition with the customary addons

[Antiope_Apollonia]

7 minutes ago, Martok73 said:

Well, still I think there should be some way to obtain the book without having to go all the way to the college and start the quest just to get into the library to be able to take it freely.

So make a patch.  It takes like 30 seconds in xEdit to put a copy wherever you want it to be.  I just start the game with one.  It's not really Clifton's job to patch a DD feature.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Antiope_Apollonia

[Antiope_Apollonia]

3 minutes ago, Martok73 said:

I honestly don't think compared to how OP Alchemy is when it comes to making gold, that no matter what the price of the slave collars are, they ain't gonna become a gold farm, it's just not worth it compared to alchemy potion farms.

It has pretty much nothing to do with gold.  It's about how smithing XP is determined.  If you overprice them, they become the dominant strategy for levelling smithing skill.  That's bad design.

[Farsh-nuke]

I've lost this fight I know but it still seems weird to me that once I become his friend I can take Farengar's gold and all his books and he'll restock in a few days and won't mind when I take them all again but somehow the collars and collar crafting ingredients operating the same way are a problem. 

If you don't like that the collars respawn you can just not take them? It's like I personally choose to not craft armor unless it's daedric or dragonscale in the very late game

Well at least you're kind enough to leave a respawning option. Hopefully I can still use slen or do farengar's quest so he likes me enough that it's not stealing to take them,

I know I'm outvoted and the one guy saying "Hey I liked how it worked originally" but still 

[Farsh-nuke]

6 minutes ago, Antiope_Apollonia said:

It has pretty much nothing to do with gold.  It's about how smithing XP is determined.  If you overprice them, they become the dominant strategy for levelling smithing skill.  That's bad design.

Have you considered that players could just choose not to take advantage of an exploit?

[Antiope_Apollonia]

6 minutes ago, Farsh-nuke said:

it still seems weird to me that once I become his friend I can take Farengar's gold and all his books and he'll restock in a few days and won't mind when I take them all again

Because their value is <25 gold.  Anything more valuable than that is still stealing.  That's the vanilla logic.

 

6 minutes ago, Farsh-nuke said:

Have you considered that players could just choose not to take advantage of an exploit?

That's a very bad design principle, lol.

[Farsh-nuke]

3 minutes ago, Antiope_Apollonia said:

That's a very bad design principle, lol.

Have you played Skyrim? Like that design principle runs through the game.

[CliftonJD]

12 minutes ago, Martok73 said:

perhaps speech level?

ya, speech is another factor that's in that huge list of dialogue conditions. higher level speech qualifies for a different level of dialogue over others

15 minutes ago, Martok73 said:

Double checked the two custom followers I had in xedit and both have the unique flag. Might want to double check that file make sure it's 3 and 3.

ya, i rechecked it our previous conversation earlier. 3 randoms have the follower dialogue set to non-uniques only and have the bribery option set to only allow paying her for sex. did you have a unique hooker hired before the patch was written

23 minutes ago, Martok73 said:

Ok, so are you gonna see about adding in the flag that makes them show "steal" prior to raising relationship rank with Farengar or completing the Dragon Stone quest?

there's no flag to add to items for stealing until a quest stage is completed, those are flags you would add to the npc to deny favors, by default they accept favors and let you take their items after completing a quest for them...bottom line if completing the dragon stone quest for farengar lets you take his paper and bonemeal, then the same applies for the items added to his study that are owned by him:

8 hours ago, CliftonJD said:

lol yes, several items on that desk are player owned already...or atleast they were. the new default is going to allow the player to take 1 of each item from the table, additional items are split between owned by nobody(usually gets owned by the location or it might stay unowned, not certain yet on this) and owned by farengar.

 

the respawning option will be have all of those items owned by farengar

 

38 minutes ago, Martok73 said:

Maybe drop the chitin and only require one bone meal and one frostbite venom along with the book and the normal collar? Not sure how much that would affect the price but an idea anyway.

thought of that as i was sending the previous message, those other items aren't worth enough to have any effect. mudcrab chitin is only worth 2 and bone meal worth 5

42 minutes ago, Martok73 said:

Add in the increase to base price with 0 speech and it would make it what, 75g ish?

again that's modifying the dd book, not too fond of that idea

44 minutes ago, Martok73 said:

1 hour ago, Antiope_Apollonia said:

I said earlier, underpricing items isn't exploitable; it's overpricing you have to worry about.  

Have you seen the sell price of some of the potions made by alchemy?

she's talking about a smithing exploit that far too many armor mods have by over-valuing the end product to what went in. i seen some mods go off the deep-end by using leather strips to make $2,000 armor

[CliftonJD]

1 hour ago, Martok73 said:

Ok, so are you gonna see about adding in the flag that makes them show "steal" prior to raising relationship rank with Farengar or completing the Dragon Stone quest?

this:

46 minutes ago, Antiope_Apollonia said:

54 minutes ago, Farsh-nuke said:

it still seems weird to me that once I become his friend I can take Farengar's gold and all his books and he'll restock in a few days and won't mind when I take them all again

Because their value is <25 gold.  Anything more valuable than that is still stealing.  That's the vanilla logic.

 

[DonQuiWho]

FWIW, I always start games with the 'Forbidden Tomes' quest, to get DD crafting at forges enabled.  Before then, whilst you've got little in the way of health, skills, materials, and so on, it means that you have to traverse Skyrim to find the means to get yourself and your followers (I use the Devious Devices Helpers mod) released from all those nasty DDs, that can be equipped on you by the baddies etc you will encounter on your travels, including those who want to play greet and meet with you on the way there.   That can be a spicy adventure in its own right

 

And a lot of you just want to have the book in your pocket at the start .... ?  Sheeshhh!  Where's your spirit of adventure?  Or do you just want a boringly easy life?

 

 

Edited June 26, 2022 by DonQuiWho

[CliftonJD]

2 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said:

So make a patch.  It takes like 30 seconds in xEdit to put a copy wherever you want it to be.  I just start the game with one.  It's not really Clifton's job to patch a DD feature.

oh speaking of which, i did make an alternate start as a slaver- this start gives the dd book

[Antiope_Apollonia]

41 minutes ago, DonQuiWho said:

And a lot of you just want to have the book in your pocket at the start .... ?  Sheeshhh!  Where's your spirit of adventure?  Or do you just want a boringly easy life?

Lol.  I made the trek the first several playthroughs with DD, but after a while, it just became a chore.  Once things stop being fun, I mod to change them.

[kohlteth]

Hi, I have combed this forum but did not find the answer.

 

Did anyone ever figure out why and how to fix (on SSE vers) that when you do the "You need to be punished" / "You will be restrained" etc dialogues, and equip the iron cuffs  (I think rope and also leather strips do the same) why the Iron collar of leashing is unequipped when they get bound?

 

Also why even with advanced leashing on, if they have said collar of leashing on, do they still runaway if under submission threshold?

 

Oh and I have looked all over, where are people finding the PAHE source files? (they aren't in the FOMOD either like some do it) 

 

Edited June 26, 2022 by kohlteth

[CliftonJD]

3 minutes ago, kohlteth said:

Did anyone ever figure out why and how to fix (on SSE vers) that when you do the "You need to be punished" / "You will be restrained" etc dialogues, and equip the iron cuffs  (I think rope and also leather strips do the same) why the Iron collar of leashing is unequipped when they get bound?

is that with the mandate nudity law

 

4 minutes ago, kohlteth said:

Also why even with advanced leashing on, if they have said collar of leashing on, do they still runaway if under submission threshold?

are you using this with dom

5 minutes ago, kohlteth said:

(they aren't in the FOMOD either like some do it) 

is no fomod

5 minutes ago, kohlteth said:

Oh and I have looked all over, where are people finding the PAHE source files?

in the bsa

[kohlteth]

6 minutes ago, CliftonJD said:

is that with the mandate nudity law

 

are you using this with dom

is no fomod

in the bsa

 

 

No I dont think mandate nudity is on,  It happened before I installed DoM and still happens with DoM too, I have not noticed a change in the behaviour of the advanced leashing option.

 

Thank you I will examine the BSA for the source files (i'm trying to see what happens if I change one of the spells in DoM and needed the PAHE source to let me recompile it) 

[remodel]

On 6/24/2022 at 10:34 AM, CliftonJD said:

was thinking what would we change it to, then thought, how bout mudcrab chittin. its readily available, but still provides a challenge until the higher levels

I like the glow dust rarity.  The leashing collar probably should be somewhat difficult to get. As it is with the glow dust I have all the slaves I can handle even with HSH.  Plenty of bandits and necromancers in Skyrim SE.

 

For me it's permanent training locations for HSH that are in short supply.

 

Regardless of what you decide, PAHE is a must have mod for me.  Great mod!

Edited June 26, 2022 by remodel
Spelling

[CliftonJD]

7 hours ago, kohlteth said:

 

 

No I dont think mandate nudity is on,  It happened before I installed DoM and still happens with DoM too, I have not noticed a change in the behaviour of the advanced leashing option.

 

Thank you I will examine the BSA for the source files (i'm trying to see what happens if I change one of the spells in DoM and needed the PAHE source to let me recompile it) 

odd, dunno what could cause that then

[Antiope_Apollonia]

Oof!  Based on my current level of irritation at a missclick, I'm going to propose that the "Ok slave" → "You're released!" dialogue should come with a pop-up confirmation window.

[CliftonJD]

10 minutes ago, Antiope_Apollonia said:

Oof!  Based on my current level of irritation at a missclick, I'm going to propose that the "Ok slave" → "You're released!" dialogue should come with a pop-up confirmation window.

ok

[Farsh-nuke]

36 minutes ago, Antiope_Apollonia said:

Oof!  Based on my current level of irritation at a missclick, I'm going to propose that the "Ok slave" → "You're released!" dialogue should come with a pop-up confirmation window.

Yeah I've noticed skyrim dialogue trees can desync where there highlighted dialogue selection is from where you're pointing and have accidentally told my follower to leave me before more than once so I feel you.

Can you imagine being that slave though? 

"You're released!"

"Wait, really? Yes!"

"Wait no hang on let me enslave you again, that was a mistake."

"Whaaaat?"

"Yeah the gui fucked up and I misclicked, give me a moment."

More seriously you can probably tell me though whether that resets the DOM training stats

[CliftonJD]

3 hours ago, Farsh-nuke said:

Yeah I've noticed skyrim dialogue trees can desync where there highlighted dialogue selection is from where you're pointing and have accidentally told my follower to leave me before more than once so I feel you.

Can you imagine being that slave though? 

"You're released!"

"Wait, really? Yes!"

"Wait no hang on let me enslave you again, that was a mistake."

"Whaaaat?"

"Yeah the gui fucked up and I misclicked, give me a moment."

More seriously you can probably tell me though whether that resets the DOM training stats

in most cases it won't reset their stats, pretty rare that a slave bugs out when re-enslaved or recloned

[CliftonJD]

15 hours ago, Martok73 said:

Maybe drop the chitin and only require one bone meal and one frostbite venom along with the book and the normal collar? Not sure how much that would affect the price but an idea anyway.

ok, if we try it that way, we get the leash collar at $277

16 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said:

Maybe a quasi-magical bug like Torchbug Thorax would make more sense than Mudcrab Chitin? 

adding this to the current suggested recipe only costs $1 for a value at $280

 

 

15 hours ago, Martok73 said:

The bone meal and venom make perfect sense from a lore perspective and immersion perspective, and if either the book or the scroll doesn't add too much to the base cost of the leash collar, then I think that would make sense both lorewise and immersively. In the event that both the book and the scroll adds too much to the cost then I would suggest perhaps just making it say 3 bone meal and 3 venom along with the normal collar as the chitin just doesn't make sense to me as an ingredient to "enchant" a normal iron collar into a leash collar.

ok, stepping back to try this instead gets us a higher cost, but lines up perfect with a lower value vanilla equivalent of $200

16 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said:

Maybe a quasi-magical bug like Torchbug Thorax would make more sense than Mudcrab Chitin? 

adding this to the newer recipe only increases our new value by 1 to $201

[Martok73]

15 hours ago, CliftonJD said:

already adjusted it according to your earlier suggestion:

huh?

 

15 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said:

So make a patch.  It takes like 30 seconds in xEdit to put a copy wherever you want it to be.  I just start the game with one.  It's not really Clifton's job to patch a DD feature.

It was just a suggestion seeing as how it fits the whole theme with the slave collars on particular vendors and such.

 

15 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said:

It has pretty much nothing to do with gold.  It's about how smithing XP is determined.  If you overprice them, they become the dominant strategy for levelling smithing skill.  That's bad design.

The price would have to be extremely high to surpass the gold ring/necklace spam for smithing leveling. As of right now there is no better way to level smithing than making gold rings/necklaces, not even the old dwarven bow spam can match it, so the price of the slave collars would have to be a lot more than what we've been discussing here to overtake the current meta.

 

15 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said:

Because their value is <25 gold.  Anything more valuable than that is still stealing.  That's the vanilla logic.

That isn't how that works, it is alot more complicated than that, each relationship rank allows the player to take different items, yes based on value, but no it's not under 25g. Also you have to have a minimum rank of ally (relationshiprank 2) or higher to be allowed to take anything at all. Can't get that rank without doing the quest for the dragon stone.

 

15 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said:

That's a very bad design principle, lol.

There are so many exploits in the vanilla game people had to make mods just to "fix" them, so yeah take that up with Bugthesda, ? BTW many many people in that play pure vanilla without mods do in fact choose not to use any exploits at all, there's a million videos on youtube to prove it.

 

14 hours ago, CliftonJD said:

ya, speech is another factor that's in that huge list of dialogue conditions. higher level speech qualifies for a different level of dialogue over others

That makes sense then, at least for the new fresh character.

 

14 hours ago, CliftonJD said:

ya, i rechecked it our previous conversation earlier. 3 randoms have the follower dialogue set to non-uniques only and have the bribery option set to only allow paying her for sex. did you have a unique hooker hired before the patch was written

Not for the last test no, neither the new fresh char that started at Angi's camp, nor the lvl 58 mage I tried who also had never met Angi had any hookers with them before installing the patch you sent me, the one I linked back to you. The lvl 58 mage currently has 4 unique hookers, 2 npc and 2 custom follower npc (xedit shows them having the unique flag so assume they are unique). I went back to a save file on the lvl 58 mage before installing TDF and made sure to install the files you gave me before testing. Still no clue why the dialog shows up twice on the high lvl char nor why I can have more than 3 uniques when the patch is supposed to stop that?

 

14 hours ago, CliftonJD said:

there's no flag to add to items for stealing until a quest stage is completed, those are flags you would add to the npc to deny favors, by default they accept favors and let you take their items after completing a quest for them...bottom line if completing the dragon stone quest for farengar lets you take his paper and bonemeal, then the same applies for the items added to his study that are owned by him:

Ok, so that makes sense, so perhaps possibly set those items to owned by him then, giving them the "steal/stolen" tag until you do the quest which in turn raises his relationshiprank to the player enough to make them not stolen?

 

14 hours ago, CliftonJD said:

thought of that as i was sending the previous message, those other items aren't worth enough to have any effect. mudcrab chitin is only worth 2 and bone meal worth 5

Ok, so if bone meal is worth 5ea, you previously was at 2 of those and 2 of the venom, without knowing how much venom is worth on it's own, if it's only 5 then going with one and one would remove 10 from the price, so it's a start ?Even without adding in either the book or the scroll, if bone meal and venom are 5ea or close to it, then could just increase the amount required to get the same base value as before but without using the chitin, cause it honestly doesn't make much sense that chitin would be used to enchant a collar to prevent escaping... The venom yes already explained, as with the bone meal (replacement for the glow dust). Originally you had suggested 2 bone meal, 2 venom, and 2 chitin, could remove the chitin and split it between the bone male and venom making it 3 of ea, or possibly 4 depending on how much the venom and chitin are worth to equal out to the 150-200 base price we have been talking about thus far.

 

14 hours ago, CliftonJD said:

again that's modifying the dd book, not too fond of that idea

If it's base value is 25, for a char with 0 speech, the vendor would increase that price by 3 times anyway without you doing anything to the record at all making the cost 75g. Probably didn't explain that correctly as to what I was referring to.

 

15 hours ago, CliftonJD said:

she's talking about a smithing exploit that far too many armor mods have by over-valuing the end product to what went in. i seen some mods go off the deep-end by using leather strips to make $2,000 armor

It would be a gold issue in that instance, but more so would be a xp issue that would surpass the current meta of spamming gold rings/necklaces to level up smithing. My point to her tho was we don't have to worry about anything like that here because you ain't gonna do that. What we have been discussing has been ingredients that made sense to "enchant" the normal iron collar with to give it the "leash" effect to prevent slaves from escaping, in a way that made sense from a lore and immersion perspective and wasn't so expensive that a fresh char or lower level char would not be able to obtain with a little work. Trying to make it not be impossible for them because at higher levels it really doesn't matter. Example my lvl 58 mage has more gold than she will ever spend, lol.

 

14 hours ago, DonQuiWho said:

FWIW, I always start games with the 'Forbidden Tomes' quest, to get DD crafting at forges enabled.  Before then, whilst you've got little in the way of health, skills, materials, and so on, it means that you have to traverse Skyrim to find the means to get yourself and your followers (I use the Devious Devices Helpers mod) released from all those nasty DDs, that can be equipped on you by the baddies etc you will encounter on your travels, including those who want to play greet and meet with you on the way there.   That can be a spicy adventure in its own right

 

And a lot of you just want to have the book in your pocket at the start .... ?  Sheeshhh!  Where's your spirit of adventure?  Or do you just want a boringly easy life?

 

As I've said before and a few others have said, bunny hopping a a snails pace across Skyrim just to get unlocked or learn how to unlock yourself by making the keys, is not fun and extremely boring, so no thank you.

 

13 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said:

Lol.  I made the trek the first several playthroughs with DD, but after a while, it just became a chore.  Once things stop being fun, I mod to change them.

Exactly this, I did it once just to "experience" it and see what it was like, never again... Did the whole Deviously Cursed Loot quest line just to "see it", yep, not gonna do that again, just not fun to me. I like having the items available but I've changed the settings enough so that it doesn't hinder my enjoyment of the game.

 

 

[Martok73]

50 minutes ago, CliftonJD said:

ok, if we try it that way, we get the leash collar at $277

adding this to the current suggested recipe only costs $1 for a value at $280

 

 

ok, stepping back to try this instead gets us a higher cost, but lines up perfect with a lower value vanilla equivalent of $200

adding this to the newer recipe only increases our new value by 1 to $201

Haha, you replied as I was in the process of replying to multiple, LOL... .anywho, my two cents, I think the 3 bone meal, 3 venom plus iron collar is good if it gives 200g base value that lines up with the vanilla equivalent. Also another two cents worth, torchbug thorax makes about as much sense as the mudcrab chitin did in all honesty even if it only adds 1 gold to the price. I think the 3 bone meal, 3 frostbite venom, 1 iron collar for 200g is the way to go, and it makes sense.

 

Or 1 bone meal, 1 frostbite venom, sparks book, iron collar for 277g isn't bad either and also makes sense as well. 77g is also not so much that it's impossible for a low level char, nor is it exploitable either, because one would have to buy the book. And imho it adds abit of flavor and lore friendlyness to the leash collar as well.

 

So, whether you decide to go with 3 bone meal, 3 frostbite venom, iron collar recipe for 200g base value, or the 1 bone meal, 1 frostbite venom, sparks book, iron collar for 277g recipe, is up to you. I think either one would be just fine as far as cost to value, and lore/immersion as well. Both recipes imho are good and would be a challenge for a new/fresh/low level character, but not impossible. I will say tho I like the idea of the one with the book personally for reasons that it gives a high level char something to go get, instead of just using the hundreds or thousands of ingredients they already have stockpiled.

 

But whichever recipe you choose is cool, just don't add the torchbug thorax, it doesn't make sense, please.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Martok73

[DonQuiWho]

@CliftonJD

 

At the end of this, I'm going to either enter you for Masterchef, or maybe just get you awarded a Michelin Star to save you from any more hassle ?

[CliftonJD]

3 hours ago, Martok73 said:

That isn't how that works, it is alot more complicated than that, each relationship rank allows the player to take different items, yes based on value, but no it's not under 25g.

that's how i've seen it work in Se. Le depended on relationship rank and allowed lover rank to take anything

3 hours ago, Martok73 said:

Not for the last test no, neither the new fresh char that started at Angi's camp, nor the lvl 58 mage I tried who also had never met Angi had any hookers with them before installing the patch you sent me, the one I linked back to you. The lvl 58 mage currently has 4 unique hookers, 2 npc and 2 custom follower npc (xedit shows them having the unique flag so assume they are unique). I went back to a save file on the lvl 58 mage before installing TDF and made sure to install the files you gave me before testing. Still no clue why the dialog shows up twice on the high lvl char nor why I can have more than 3 uniques when the patch is supposed to stop that?

still getting the friendly bug so either we need to try it pfiffy's way or some other mod is causing the problem and we need to find that before we continue with tdf:

TDF20220530_v2 fix patch2.zip

3 hours ago, Martok73 said:

Ok, so that makes sense, so perhaps possibly set those items to owned by him then, giving them the "steal/stolen" tag until you do the quest which in turn raises his relationshiprank to the player enough to make them not stolen?

this:

19 hours ago, CliftonJD said:

lol yes, several items on that desk are player owned already...or atleast they were. the new default is going to allow the player to take 1 of each item from the table, additional items are split between owned by nobody(usually gets owned by the location or it might stay unowned, not certain yet on this) and owned by farengar.

 

the respawning option will be have all of those items owned by farengar

 

3 hours ago, Martok73 said:

without knowing how much venom is worth on it's own

21 for the venom

3 hours ago, Martok73 said:

But whichever recipe you choose is cool, just don't add the torchbug thorax, it doesn't make sense, please.

i call it a friendly peace offering between all the replies you and antiope gave that she only had the 1 suggestion of the torchbug

2 hours ago, DonQuiWho said:

@CliftonJD

 

At the end of this, I'm going to either enter you for Masterchef, or maybe just get you awarded a Michelin Star to save you from any more hassle ?

thanks