Guest Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 16 minutes ago, GrimReaper said: How extraordinarily generous. The amount of mods you need to pay for may become unsustainable in the near feature. Instead of a select few sitting at the end of the chain - those that use things that are provided to them for free but want money for their time - I'm pretty sure that eventually everyone wants to be compensated for their time. Or people with the necessary skills and knowledge might decide that modding isn't worth it anymore because it's all about making mad dosh now instead of a community coming together. So at the end you'll have a bunch of people that are in it for the money and not for modding and I'm pretty sure this won't play out well for the people that are able to make money now just because the whole foundation for complex mods was already laid down for free. I agree with GrimReaper. Modding is a hobby and should just stay a hobby. Asking money for mods is like as if you used to play balls with your friends on the weekend, and now you demand them to pay you for your time before even leaving the house. It just looks scummy.
dagobaking Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 19 minutes ago, GrimReaper said: How extraordinarily generous. The amount of mods you need to pay for may become unsustainable in the near feature. Instead of a select few sitting at the end of the chain - those that use things that are provided to them for free but want money for their time - I'm pretty sure that eventually everyone wants to be compensated for their time. Or people with the necessary skills and knowledge might decide that modding isn't worth it anymore because it's all about making mad dosh now instead of a community coming together. So at the end you'll have a bunch of people that are in it for the money and not for modding and I'm pretty sure this won't play out well for the people that are able to make money now just because the whole foundation for complex mods was already laid down for free. I dont see anything in my comment that dealt with generosity? The point is that modders who feel that their time is worth as much as the users time tend to believe that other mod authors time is valuable too. That's not generous. It's just not being self-centered. No awards needed for that. A zillion people using mods for free at the expense of a relatively smaller group is not a community coming together. That's a bunch of people feeding at the trough. And some are so entitled about it that they can't even wait a month longer than donors to get it for free. I don't think that your prediction is what could happen at all. The reality is, there just isn't that strong of a market for paid mods, no matter who makes them. There are a few that a lot of people would pay for and a whole ton of others that nobody would. You would have a bunch of people trying to sell mods that make $3.00 per year. But, the prospect of a success would compel them to learn, move on and make better mods that people really would buy.
dagobaking Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 10 minutes ago, asenasen said: I agree with GrimReaper. Modding is a hobby and should just stay a hobby. Asking money for mods is like as if you used to play balls with your friends on the weekend, and now you demand them to pay you for your time before even leaving the house. It just looks scummy. I think it's wrong to tell other people what their time is. It's up to them. It can be a hobby or it can be a means to make money. Their call. Totally unfair to say its a hobby for modders but ok for a studio to rake in millions for the same work. It's people spending time on the same thing for the exact same types of benefits to others.
dagobaking Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 1 hour ago, bishlapped said: I don't know if I agree with the term "sacrifice" here. 1st, I think only a small percentage of modders have the skill, talent and desire to create the mods we all love. Look at Nexus 50plus thousand mods of shit with a few hundred or so being worth the download. Most of which all come from the same small pool of authors. While sacrifice may be a term they might apply here and there, I doubt it's an overall term they'd use to describe the hobby they have or had loved. Sharing isn't without it's rewards you know. Up until recently, it wasn't about money. But some of those modders got some serious rep. Being seriously recognized for doing something isn't all bad. Some even launched into professional careers in the gaming industry. Yes. But, that only emphasizes my point. Some modders are compensated by making their mod a portfolio piece (that gets them paying jobs). So, they really aren't doing the mod "for free". They are doing it because there is an earning motivation that justifies the time they spend on it. I think this is particularly true of the biggest "end of chain" mods that many people rely on. Just because you love something doesn't mean that doing it isn't at the sacrifice of other obligations that adults have. Many people mod LESS, despite loving it, because they have to work to pay bills. Meanwhile, the users come home from work and use their free time simply enjoying the work the author did. That's the irony here. People would mod more, something they love, if they could pay their bills doing it. And it would cost users a pittance to make this happen. Our entire economy is based on the fact that people do more work on things that others want to pay for. Not less. I would much rather pay for a good mod than the lousy microtransaction products studios put out.
Sagebrush61 Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 A lot of people contribute to the making of a mod and never recieve compensation or even acknowledgement for the time they've spent. Many mods are released on this site are just flat out broken. People load them and test them and provide feedback to the mod authors. Other people package up fomods to make it more convenient for constant re-installation. There is a whole suite of tools out there that modders are using to provide their mods. None of those people get compensated for their time. When a few people start thinking that they are the only ones contributing and therefore they deserve compensation the community collapses. No one person on Loverslab or anywhere else is producing a mod, it is a group effort and the continuation of this community is at risk.
dagobaking Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, Sagebrush61 said: A lot of people contribute to the making of a mod and never recieve compensation or even acknowledgement for the time they've spent. Many mods are released on this site are just flat out broken. People load them and test them and provide feedback to the mod authors. Other people package up fomods to make it more convenient for constant re-installation. There is a whole suite of tools out there that modders are using to provide their mods. None of those people get compensated for their time. When a few people start thinking that they are the only ones contributing and therefore they deserve compensation the community collapses. No one person on Loverslab or anywhere else is producing a mod, it is a group effort and the continuation of this community is at risk. That is just factually not true. While there are people that contribute in many ways, including helpful bug testing, there are still many folds more that do nothing but use the mods and perhaps complain or demand changes/features as if it were a product they paid for. Besides that, the same can be said for Bethesda or any other studio. People beta test their games because they want to see the game early. Not because they want to do a job for the company. Nobody in their right mind would believe that AAA games would be made if the companies that make them didn't pay their employees and did not do it in the hopes of compensation. The exact same principle applies to an individual person. Why should Big Video Game get compensated and the little guy has to do everything for free?
unded Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 Fine. Paywall it all...when it all snowballs just don't come complaining. ?
dagobaking Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, the unded said: Fine. Paywall it all...when it all snowsballs just don't come complaining. ? As long as you agree to come back and admit that it led to more, higher quality mods instead.
unded Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 Just now, dagobaking said: As long as you agree to come back and admit that it led to more, higher quality mods instead. Won't deny, it has it's up and downs tho.
Halstrom Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 1 hour ago, asenasen said: I agree with GrimReaper. Modding is a hobby and should just stay a hobby. Asking money for mods is like as if you used to play balls with your friends on the weekend, and now you demand them to pay you for your time before even leaving the house. It just looks scummy. There's no black and white, this or that. It should be the freedom of people creating anything to ask what they want for it. Do musicians, football players and anyelse in entertainment industries do it for free. You going to tell a pub band that have day jobs that they can't charge for playing weekends because they don't have a record contract so aren't professional musicians? The guy down the road sells chook eggs and honey from his bee hives. because he works in an office during the week and doesn't have a company distribution system is he not worthy of charging for his produce? How many people have started from hobbies and grown into big businesses?
Halstrom Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 29 minutes ago, Sagebrush61 said: A lot of people contribute to the making of a mod and never recieve compensation or even acknowledgement for the time they've spent. Many mods are released on this site are just flat out broken. People load them and test them and provide feedback to the mod authors. Other people package up fomods to make it more convenient for constant re-installation. There is a whole suite of tools out there that modders are using to provide their mods. None of those people get compensated for their time. When a few people start thinking that they are the only ones contributing and therefore they deserve compensation the community collapses. No one person on Loverslab or anywhere else is producing a mod, it is a group effort and the continuation of this community is at risk. Some of us do donate to those tool authors where they provide the option. You don't think that CBBE donation button does anything? All FO4Edit and F4SE have to do is upload their works the same way if they wanted and I would happily donate a few bucks when I download updates. I could donate a bit more if I wasn't scratching to pay my bills. Yeah many mods are in testing and development, but that also gives the users a say in its direction and development. Rather than people just dumping a mod on the community and saying its done, no more. Mods aren't tested properly until people have a chance to break them
jennievm Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 Speaking from a mod user perspective a super poor one at that. I have no problem donating to a modder if i have the money. But for me its impossible in my current situation. So im pretty greatful to the folks that put up their mods for us pleps to enjoy. But that doesn't mean one cannot support an author in other ways. Word of mouth, endorsements etc can just be as effective as the 2 dollars a mod author wants for his mod. Example I play a mod I like and endorse it and tell my friend. He/she goes to check it out too and might have the money to donate and does and even endorse the mod. Now he/she goes and tells another friend. You see where this is heading you got the point. So donations are fine imo. Now when it comes to paywalls. A person will see that and immediately think wow what a jerk im telling everyone to stay away etc. Thats just an example but you got the point. Anyway just my 10cents
Pfiffy Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 6 hours ago, Vader666 said: Wait there are actual tools for modding ?! I always just put random patterns of "0" and "1" in a .txt file and hope that the result is what i've aimed for. But seriously, i don't get why people debate about that whole topic over and over again. If authors of whatever stuff want to share their work for free, its rightfully their decision. If authors of whatever stuff want to get paid in any way, its rightfully their decision. If the stuff you did contains work of other authors you'll need to get permission for anything you want to do with that stuff. If you think you should get anything you want for free because... honestly why do people think they should get everything they want for free ? We did a further step here... We are at the point, if porting mods is work or not, and if it unethically to have a patreon if port mods....
KoolHndLuke Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 Okay, the question for me now is this- why do some authors not give a damn about getting compensation for their work at all while others are in favor of it? Shouldn't every mod author or contributor want compensation? Why do some say no? They don't need any more money? We know that ain't true. They believe mods should remain free. In fact, I know a few fairly prominent mod authors that will fight tooth and nail to keep mods free and they think anyone charging for them are scum. But why?
dagobaking Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 42 minutes ago, jennievm said: Speaking from a mod user perspective a super poor one at that. I have no problem donating to a modder if i have the money. But for me its impossible in my current situation. So im pretty greatful to the folks that put up their mods for us pleps to enjoy. But that doesn't mean one cannot support an author in other ways. Word of mouth, endorsements etc can just be as effective as the 2 dollars a mod author wants for his mod. Example I play a mod I like and endorse it and tell my friend. He/she goes to check it out too and might have the money to donate and does and even endorse the mod. Now he/she goes and tells another friend. You see where this is heading you got the point. So donations are fine imo. Now when it comes to paywalls. A person will see that and immediately think wow what a jerk im telling everyone to stay away etc. Thats just an example but you got the point. Anyway just my 10cents Very reasonable, imo. This is why I think the Patreon model is a good middle ground area. I can understand varying opinions about individuals contributing or not for any reason. But, I have a tough time with people even being against other people donating.
dagobaking Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 1 minute ago, KoolHndLuke said: Okay, the question for me now is this- why do some authors not give a damn about getting compensation for their work at all while others are in favor of it? Shouldn't every mod author or contributor want compensation? Why do some say no? I think that is pretty easy to answer. Everyone has different situations. Some authors might already be successful selling software or running businesses. So, amounts made from modding mean less to their lives than someone else scraping by. Some might not make a lot of money but are just people who don't care and maybe live in their parents basements. Who knows. I feel compelled to speak up on behalf of the undoubtedly talented mod authors that would contribute if they weren't exhausted at their 9-5, putting 3 kids through school.
Pfiffy Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, Alkpaz said: Some get offended if you even ask to donate to them.. *shrugs*. Some get offended if you don't....
khumak Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 Hey if people can make money modding, I say go for it. I just don't see the economics working for either the modder or the user based on donations or even paid mods behind a paywall. I can see getting a few donations here and there as a thank you but not something that would add up to enough to be your job. That's why people have jobs, they can't make enough money at whatever their hobby is to not have one... For the modder you're talking about replacing the salary you would get at an actual job. So what, $50k-$100k a year or more in mod donations? People with the skills to make some of the more complex mods out there could easily make at least that much at a real job. Let's look at USSEP as kind of your best case scenario. It is currently #1 on the Nexus and has about 70k endorsements. Let's say each of those endorsements could translate into a $1 donation (even though the actual number is probably less than 1% of that). You'd still have to produce a mod or combination of mods more popular than USSEP every year to even come close to replacing a salary. Those 70k endorsements for USSEP are not 70k per year, that's 70k total. You'd need that every year even assuming a 100% conversion rate on endorsements to donations. From the user's perspective, let's say everything suddenly did go behind a paywall so all mods cost $1. How many mods have you tried? Would you pay a couple thousand dollars to acquire those if you didn't already have them? I wouldn't. Let's assume you'd pay $50 total for all your mods. How do I donate 2 pennies per mod without incurring any transaction fees? How many millions of sales does each author need at that kind of price to mod full time? Or if the $50 I'm spending means I just have to pick 50 mods and that's all I get then I'll go with option C, zero mods and just move on to a game that doesn't need mods for it to be satisfying. I think the reason CC content is so ridiculously overpriced is that's the only way they could get a meaningful amount of revenue from it without a massively larger user-base. There's just not enough people willing to pay a meaningful amount per mod for hundreds or thousands of mods. So they have to go after the whales who actually will spend several hundred dollars or more just on Skyrim. I think the more likely outcome if paid mods were pushed heavily (or it was the only option), is that the pricing wouldn't work for the mod users to get enough mods to build a satisfying mod list so the user-base would drop precipitously. This would lead to less modding, which would turn into a death spiral of less mods, less modders, less users, etc. I do think the Nexus funded donation points system is a nice touch to give mod authors a small slice of the ad revenue from the site but I would bet that slice is going to be on the order of a happy meal at McDonalds rather than a free Porsche. It would work better if they'd pick an ad network that conforms to the non-intrusive ad definitions of the different ad blockers out there. I use Adblock Plus so I do allow non-intrusive ads, but out of all the sites I visit every day I actually see an ad maybe 0.001% of the time. I'd be perfectly happy to support those sites by viewing non-intrusive ads but I'm not willing to turn off my ad blocker and have my system infested with all sorts of malware.
dagobaking Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 32 minutes ago, khumak said: I can see getting a few donations here and there as a thank you but not something that would add up to enough to be your job. https://www.patreon.com/wickedwoohoo
dagobaking Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 LooksMenu alone has 468,750 unique downloads. If users paid .50 cents each (2 games of Dragons Lair in 1986) that mod alone would have made Expired $234k. I think most people would agree that LooksMenu is worth a one time .50 cent payment.
khumak Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 7 minutes ago, dagobaking said: LooksMenu alone has 468,750 unique downloads. If users paid .50 cents each (2 games of DragonSlayer in 1986) that mod alone would have made Expired $234k. I think most people would agree that LooksMenu is worth a one time .50 cent payment. I'm not arguing that a lot of the mods out there are not worth anything. It's the total cost collectively where the value proposition breaks down for me if they were all paid mods. If I ran down the list of installed mods in my current game and asked myself if I would pay for this 1 mod if that was the only one I needed, the answer would be yes for every one of them. If I then add up all of those mods and ask myself if I'd pay $500 for all of them, the answer then becomes no... If I then multiply that by 4 or 5 or more for all the mods I've tested but am not currently using it becomes a more emphatic no... I do think there are probably a small number of modders that might have the skills to produce high quality mods in the sort of volume that would be needed to actually make a living at it but not if they expect to make as much as they would working a normal job that required a similar skill set. For instance someone who can create The Forgotten City has the skills to just produce a full fledged game (and in fact he's doing exactly that). How many mods equivalent to The Forgotten City would he have to make to equal whatever he's making with his full fledged game? 100? 1,000? 100,000? I could be wrong. Maybe everyone making Creation Club mods is filthy rich now, but I doubt it.
Pfiffy Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 53 minutes ago, khumak said: Hey if people can make money modding, I say go for it. I just don't see the economics working for either the modder or the user based on donations or even paid mods behind a paywall. I can see getting a few donations here and there as a thank you but not something that would add up to enough to be your job. That's why people have jobs, they can't make enough money at whatever their hobby is to not have one... For the modder you're talking about replacing the salary you would get at an actual job. So what, $50k-$100k a year or more in mod donations? People with the skills to make some of the more complex mods out there could easily make at least that much at a real job. Let's look at USSEP as kind of your best case scenario. It is currently #1 on the Nexus and has about 70k endorsements. Let's say each of those endorsements could translate into a $1 donation (even though the actual number is probably less than 1% of that). You'd still have to produce a mod or combination of mods more popular than USSEP every year to even come close to replacing a salary. Those 70k endorsements for USSEP are not 70k per year, that's 70k total. You'd need that every year even assuming a 100% conversion rate on endorsements to donations. From the user's perspective, let's say everything suddenly did go behind a paywall so all mods cost $1. How many mods have you tried? Would you pay a couple thousand dollars to acquire those if you didn't already have them? I wouldn't. Let's assume you'd pay $50 total for all your mods. How do I donate 2 pennies per mod without incurring any transaction fees? How many millions of sales does each author need at that kind of price to mod full time? Or if the $50 I'm spending means I just have to pick 50 mods and that's all I get then I'll go with option C, zero mods and just move on to a game that doesn't need mods for it to be satisfying. I think the reason CC content is so ridiculously overpriced is that's the only way they could get a meaningful amount of revenue from it without a massively larger user-base. There's just not enough people willing to pay a meaningful amount per mod for hundreds or thousands of mods. So they have to go after the whales who actually will spend several hundred dollars or more just on Skyrim. I think the more likely outcome if paid mods were pushed heavily (or it was the only option), is that the pricing wouldn't work for the mod users to get enough mods to build a satisfying mod list so the user-base would drop precipitously. This would lead to less modding, which would turn into a death spiral of less mods, less modders, less users, etc. I do think the Nexus funded donation points system is a nice touch to give mod authors a small slice of the ad revenue from the site but I would bet that slice is going to be on the order of a happy meal at McDonalds rather than a free Porsche. It would work better if they'd pick an ad network that conforms to the non-intrusive ad definitions of the different ad blockers out there. I use Adblock Plus so I do allow non-intrusive ads, but out of all the sites I visit every day I actually see an ad maybe 0.001% of the time. I'd be perfectly happy to support those sites by viewing non-intrusive ads but I'm not willing to turn off my ad blocker and have my system infested with all sorts of malware. Well, I see a problem with that. There are a lot of oldrim mods, that have been ported but not by the original authors. And there are no more downloads on those old mods, but the ported mods are fresh, so they get more downloads. As Komotor stated porting mods is just shitty work, but the porters get the money, that the original authors deserve and we are back at the sharing issues, that come with that kind of donation system. We will sooner or later end up with authors locking up their content, which will make it impossible to share ports. No ports -> No mods for SE -> no further mod development... and/or No permissions -> 'illigal' sharing -> no donations...
MadMansGun Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 2 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said: Okay, the question for me now is this- why do some authors not give a damn about getting compensation for their work at all while others are in favor of it? Shouldn't every mod author or contributor want compensation? Why do some say no? They don't need any more money? We know that ain't true. They believe mods should remain free. In fact, I know a few fairly prominent mod authors that will fight tooth and nail to keep mods free and they think anyone charging for them are scum. But why? because i have already lost one community to capitalistic domino effect bullshit like this. 2 hours ago, Alkpaz said: I guess they see it as a double edge sword.. it becomes a "job" and you are not free to do it "whenever you please" because people expect you to keep producing. that too (people keep trying to commission me) 2 hours ago, Pfiffy said: Some get offended if you don't.... ignore them completely and give them nothing, not even a view count.
lordgdavid Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 I have absolutely no problem with the patreon aproach where the modder gets rewarded with the minimized amount of middle man bs, Creation Club is what I hate. Or any attempt beth making to milk modders even more after basicly modders sell their games. Now I know many enjoy their games as vanilla but many would not even care to look at them.
pinky6225 Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 23 minutes ago, khumak said: I'm not arguing that a lot of the mods out there are not worth anything. It's the total cost collectively where the value proposition breaks down for me if they were all paid mods. If I ran down the list of installed mods in my current game and asked myself if I would pay for this 1 mod if that was the only one I needed, the answer would be yes for every one of them. If I then add up all of those mods and ask myself if I'd pay $500 for all of them, the answer then becomes no... If I then multiply that by 4 or 5 or more for all the mods I've tested but am not currently using it becomes a more emphatic no... I do think there are probably a small number of modders that might have the skills to produce high quality mods in the sort of volume that would be needed to actually make a living at it but not if they expect to make as much as they would working a normal job that required a similar skill set. For instance someone who can create The Forgotten City has the skills to just produce a full fledged game (and in fact he's doing exactly that). How many mods equivalent to The Forgotten City would he have to make to equal whatever he's making with his full fledged game? 100? 1,000? 100,000? I could be wrong. Maybe everyone making Creation Club mods is filthy rich now, but I doubt it. whats the maths for arriving at $500? As i recall i started with 0 mods and added probably a dozen and then a dozen more and so on, i did no go out and find 255 mods to install in one go (and i highly doubt skyrim would be stable if i did) so their suddenly being a charge of a figure like $500 seems a bit excessive/unrealistic
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