Mods and Money!?

[winny257]

15 hours ago, Vader666 said:

Wait there are actual tools for modding ?!

I always just put random patterns of "0" and "1" in a .txt file and hope that the result is what i've aimed for.

 

sorry, I must correct me, I did not mean the tools, I meant the construction sets of the game!

 

Now I'll tell you a little story once about a member that is active since October 16, 2011 here.
I have not downloaded any more mods since 2013, neither here let alone from Nexus!
I have not been playing Skyrim since December 2014, let alone another game of Beth!
Now you are asking yourself, why is Winny here? I will tell you why I am here!
though I am not a modder, I sacrifice many hours a day to help others.
I do this completely unselfishly, I do not ask for money for the thousands of hours I have already sacrificed.
Do you know what my reward is? NO!
then have a look here.

https://www.loverslab.com/topmembers/

 

I always listen here, Modders have to eat, or go on vacation!
Modified her in main job, or is it a hobby?
I would say hobby, and for his hobby to demand money is basely in my eyes.
either share from the heart or let it stay.
has ever thought of it, that many people do not have that much money available, they have to do without payment mods.

 

a word in the end, I could puke!          With best regards Winny257 

 

edit: and here.

 

[Kimy]

13 hours ago, GrimReaper said:

The market doesn't care about value or work, the market cares about supply and demand. Consumers as well don't give a shit about how much work someone put into something, they care about accessibility, convenience and good deals. If we're talking about adult modding, many consumers would rather pay for a good video rather than a bunch of mods. Why? Because getting mods to work is hard for most people. Watching a video isn't. Those adult mods need to be put into the right context - you'll need a ton of graphical enhancement mods like texture and mesh replacers, lighting mods, ENBs and so on for Skyrim to look decent. When it comes to the video, you click play, have fun, and you're done. You may cry about how unfair that is, but the truth of the matter is you (not you specifically, but the people that push paid mods, either creators or supporters) invited the market into the modding community and as long as the market works in your favor (but to the disadvantage of others) everything is fine and dandy but if it works against you suddenly you want to invoke ye olde modding codex about permissions and respect. You can have it one way or the other, not both at the same time.

There must be demand for mods. Because they seem to get downloaded by the millions. And where there is demand, there is a market. And I don't think it's too complex for them to install them, otherwise they wouldn't do it. Now, obviously people prefer getting stuff for free, even when it it's professional quality, made by people having a relevant professional background. Sure, I get that. Free stuff is nice. I also get that retexturing a sword and releasing that as a mod isn't something you can reasonably expect getting paid hundreds of dollars for. But that's not the kind of mods we're talking about here, and people need to realize that not all mods are the same, and not all modders are the same. Some mods were made in 10 minutes. Some were developed over years and offer more hours of content than some actual games. For some modders it's a hobby, and that's all they ever want it to be. But some are putting such an insane amount of work into creating content that it's pretty much offensive when users tell these people that they have no right to expect compensation for what's absolutely indistinguishable from doing the same work in a studio. But as I said a few times now, they say "Modding is a hobby!" and mean "I demand you making stuff for me for free, because I can't be bothered paying for it."

 

The proof that there IS a market for mods is the circumstance that people apparently DO pay, if you force them to. Ask Komotor. The model obviously works for him and a lot of others who paywall mods, fully or partially so. I find that sad, but apparently it's the nature of humans not to give anything back if they don't have to. I have committed not to paywall and will stand by it. People can tip me for my work, or not. Their choice. But if they chose not to, then they can't complain if I eventually will have to do exactly what they are telling me to do. Which is go look for an actual job in a couple years and quit putting a full-time equivalent amount of hours into creating these bondage mods that people apparently enjoy enough that they downloaded them many hundreds of thousands of times.

Like everyone else, I started this as a hobby. But back then I wasn't working on multiple large-scale mods simultaneously, and trust me when I say that this no longer feels like a hobby. Yes, I love doing it, like some people love their job. And I am not asking people to buy me a BMW and diamond rings. But -some- justification to keep doing what I am doing would be nice. Is that really THAT much asked for? Or, to phrase it differently, if people really think that I and people like me create THAT little value with these mods that they can't justify throwing us a buck or two, maybe we should stop doing it, and revert to making these 10-minute mods, which can be argued are really still in hobby-territory?

 

Btw, it's actually hilarious to suggest us "Go get hired by a studio if you want to make money". As if any mainstream studio would let us make naughty stuff. ?  Also, do you tell these people on your local farmer's market selling their homemade jam to go buy an actual farm if they want to be a farmer, too? Or that making homemade jam is a hobby and not a business? No? Why not? It's the same thing.

[dagobaking]

6 hours ago, 27X said:

Wrong.

 

Every "market" I stated is where currently paywalled content game/interactive content is the norm and far outweighs timed or "unlockable" content with time instances or other means of getting it. You haven't the faintest.

What the? Are you talking about different versions of these games? You are saying that there is not a shit-ton of free mods for the Sims?

 

6 hours ago, 27X said:

 

You listed a corollary that doesn't even apply to the topic at hand and then played your trump card of dolphin breathe air, humans breathe air, dolphins = humans.

 

Nope.

My "corollary" examples apply pretty damned closely. In the link, you have multiple pieces of software that rely on other base systems (ie. Wordpress). These are effectively mods of a platform that can be used in vanilla form. And there are hundreds if not thousands of examples of them making money for the authors just on that site alone. On the mobile app stores, there are thousands of examples of solo authors selling inexpensive apps. Everyone is trying to make the next big title and it drives options and quality up for the buyers. And still plenty of free options in all of these places too.

 

6 hours ago, 27X said:

Your randian reganomics theory doesn't exist as a working model and hasn't worked yet in 15 years of Bethesda/EA/Adult modding. If I dug around in FO modding I bet it doesn't exist there either.

Where did I claim that it has already worked in this niche? I'm arguing for MOVING to that system in this niche. So far, it has been shouted down by, imo, short-sighted people worried about a few dollars (that they happily fork over to Bethesda and every other Corp Studio instead) before it has even had a chance to be tried genuinely.

 

And again, I'm not talking about a Steam or Bethesda driven thing. Ideally, this would be a grass-roots effort so that more revenue for the work stays in the hands of the individual authors.

[dagobaking]

36 minutes ago, Kimy said:

There must be demand for mods. Because they seem to get downloaded by the millions. And where there is demand, there is a market. And I don't think it's too complex for them to install them, otherwise they wouldn't do it. Now, obviously people prefer getting stuff for free, even when it it's professional quality, made by people having a relevant professional background. Sure, I get that. Free stuff is nice. I also get that retexturing a sword and releasing that as a mod isn't something you can reasonably expect getting paid hundreds of dollars for. But that's not the kind of mods we're talking about here, and people need to realize that not all mods are the same, and not all modders are the same. Some mods were made in 10 minutes. Some were developed over years and offer more hours of content than some actual games. For some modders it's a hobby, and that's all they ever want it to be. But some are putting such an insane amount of work into creating content that it's pretty much offensive when users tell these people that they have no right to expect compensation for what's absolutely indistinguishable from doing the same work in a studio. But as I said a few times now, they say "Modding is a hobby!" and mean "I demand you making stuff for me for free, because I can't be bothered paying for it."

 

The proof that there IS a market for mods is the circumstance that people apparently DO pay, if you force them to. Ask Komotor. The model obviously works for him and a lot of others who paywall mods, fully or partially so. I find that sad, but apparently it's the nature of humans not to give anything back if they don't have to. I have committed not to paywall and will stand by it. People can tip me for my work, or not. Their choice. But then they can't complain if I eventually will have to do exactly what they are telling me to do. Which is go look for an actual job in a couple years and quit putting a full-time equivalent of hours into creating these bondage mods that people apparently enjoy enough that they downloaded them many hundreds of thousands of times.

 

Btw, it's actually hilarious to suggest us "Go get hired by a studio if you want to make money". As if any mainstream studio would let us make naughty stuff. ?  Also, do you tell these people on your local farmer's market selling their homemade jam to go buy an actual farm if they want to be a farmer, too? Or that making homemade jam is a hobby and not a business? No? Why not? It's the same thing.

Well said.

 

We can either end up with a community driven market where good mods are properly rated and have a small cost. Or, we can let the corporations take it over and get charged unreasonable prices for every mod, regardless of its perceived value, with crumbs being handed down to the authors.

[khumak]

5 hours ago, Cezul said:

The whole CC model could be cool, if it was done properly, and Bethesda actually took the time to garner, coach and support modders to produce DLC or Expansion type content. 
 Things like new lands, large quests, new skills and new weapon types with their own animations rather than some janky jury rig type deal would be worth paying $$$ for. If we're paying money it definitely needs to be of a professional quality.

I think they'd be too lazy to actually curate and cultivate that type of content though.

Save all the single off weapon/armor mods, reskins, and sexy mods ( which would never be allowed anyway ) for the free modding community to do.
 

There's 2 problems with the CC model as far as I'm concerned.  One is everything is ridiculously overpriced.  The other is that because of the format they use it's not even possible to create a big mod like Bruma, Falskaar, Wyrmstooth, or something that would actually be worth the prices they're asking.  Small mods that should be free are all that's even possible with CC regardless of skill or intent of the modders involved.  So all it's ever going to be is a way to rip off the console users.

 

DLC sized mods are not even possible with CC.  The biggest thing you're going to get is maybe a house mod with no quest or backstory.

[dagobaking]

5 hours ago, Cezul said:

The whole CC model could be cool, if it was done properly, and Bethesda actually took the time to garner, coach and support modders to produce DLC or Expansion type content. 
 Things like new lands, large quests, new skills and new weapon types with their own animations rather than some janky jury rig type deal would be worth paying $$$ for. If we're paying money it definitely needs to be of a professional quality.

I think they'd be too lazy to actually curate and cultivate that type of content though.

Save all the single off weapon/armor mods, reskins, and sexy mods ( which would never be allowed anyway ) for the free modding community to do.
 

I think that there is an opportunity for the studios if they really wanted to be forward thinking about it. They could set up a royalty-free marketplace and fully commit to letting mod authors benefit 100% from their work without trying to find ways to take a cut. In my view, that would be living up to the implications of providing access to the CK.

 

It's not like it is a big cost for a company like Bethesda to run a marketplace web site.

[Kimy]

I wouldn't even mind Beth getting a cut for providing the platform and letting us put our content into their game. But when they partnered with Steam back then, they wanted to keep more than 70% of the revenue, IIRC. I found this more insulting than anything. The other way around would be acceptable, but if I get thrown mere breadcrumbs, I have the feeling that they are interested in exploiting modders and not partnering with them fairly.

[dagobaking]

Agree completely. They set their own efforts back by taking too much and making it not worthwhile.

 

Also, I would not want to see those companies trying to control acceptable content. I really think it would be best if a group that is separated from the games runs it. Like a Nexus or LL type community. Even Nexus, its great that they are trying to do something to share the revenue other mod work has created for them. But, I'm fairly certain that it's still a percentage of earnings that isn't likely to move any needles or be viewed as fair.

[Guest]

@Kimy I'll tell you a good thing,

I also started tipjar and force is to see that it is a model that does not work well at all.

Nothing prevents you from continuing to give your work for free and to offer something more to people who give you money.
I have patrons who are there since day one and the first day that I started the Early Access, some told me "well before I had wanted to give but I did not really have reasons, now I have one.. "

So some are really happy to support their creators, some are fans and support all the time and some are more interested by some content and come time to time.

If you only listen to what users still want all for free you will never win much and it's often the most actives on our threads ^^.
Even if you have a revolutionary idea, will watch you work and we will wait for the release ..

 

Anyway, I tell you that there are only the imbeciles who do not change their minds.
I do not think we would be upset if you decided to do a "paywall" too.
Some will surely reproach you ... But you will notice that there will be people generally discrete on the topic but much more serious when they are on patreon,

you will resent much more consideration for your work than if you distribute it always for free, even if it seems paradoxical it is our reality.
So do not give yourself a bad conscience because those who do not do anything say it's not good ..

It's the same for Loverslab/Sexlab Ashal should need to do something.
I do not know, if maybe he start a new framework he could also made early access or similar and I'm sure it's a success too.

 

And yeah, why go work for studios where we are going to made "normal' things, and put our creativity on the back to produce mainstream content.. ?
Patreon is a opportunity for creators to be able to produce original content that we do not usually see.. 

[KoolHndLuke]

1 hour ago, Kimy said:

I have the feeling that they are interested in exploiting modders and not partnering with them fairly.

Of course. Their sales on pc are a very small part of the overall profits. They will exploit you and other authors to help get more money out of teens with their parents credit cards on Xbox or Playstation. CC was just getting their foot in the door from what I can tell. They have big plans for the future- I have no doubt. Don't be surprised if you see some of your work in a mod they are selling later. The next gen of consoles will be out in what? 3-4 yrs?

 

As Vinfamy and a few others already determined, the time to move on to other games- made by other devs- is already here. Unless you like giving them the right to use any and all of your assets in their paid mods for CC- and they will. Hell, they already have from what I have read about.

[khumak]

I think there's a place for both free mods and paid mods.  If your mod is popular and takes enough skill or work that it would be hard for someone else to reproduce it, some people would pay for it.  Some wouldn't.  If you put an easy to create mod behind a paywall probably nobody would pay for it.  People would either ignore it or someone else would make something similar for free and everyone would get that instead.  I do think paid mods could run into issues with dependencies though.  For instance, you make an animation pack and want to put it behind a paywall. 

 

Then Fore says no paid mods are allowed to use FNIS and starts blocking anything he hears about that is behind a paywall?  (Just an example, I have no clue what Fore's stand on paid mods is.)  Technically someone could produce an alternative to FNIS, but if it was easy someone probably already would have...  Or maybe instead he says ok paid mods are allowed but you have to give him half of all the money you get from it in exchange for making FNIS a dependency.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, khumak said:

I think there's a place for both free mods and paid mods.  If your mod is popular and takes enough skill or work that it would be hard for someone else to reproduce it, some people would pay for it.  Some wouldn't.  If you put an easy to create mod behind a paywall probably nobody would pay for it.  People would either ignore it or someone else would make something similar for free and everyone would get that instead.  I do think paid mods could run into issues with dependencies though.  For instance, you make an animation pack and want to put it behind a paywall. 

 

Then Fore says no paid mods are allowed to use FNIS and starts blocking anything he hears about that is behind a paywall?  (Just an example, I have no clue what Fore's stand on paid mods is.)  Technically someone could produce an alternative to FNIS, but if it was easy someone probably already would have...  Or maybe instead he says ok paid mods are allowed but you have to give him half of all the money you get from it in exchange for making FNIS a dependency.

There is some possible concern about that, but I guess Fore support also some patreon who have also Early access..

And when we talk about paywall there is "paywall" and paywall..
It's not Hardselling here, we still release stuff for free and we do not put all our packs only for paid.
There is a nuance, it's not like on steam.

[dagobaking]

I think that if there was more incentive, there would be more modders willing to make alternatives to FNIS without restrictions if that demand were created.

 

The equation for a mod to become reality is something like this:

1. Someone has to personally be into the game.
2. They have to have the skills needed to make the given mod.
3. They need to have the time to make and manage it.

Without a pay incentive I think that those factors are roughly equally needed. With a pay incentive, 1 and 3 become less of a factor because they can be replaced by the simple need to turn time into income.

 

Some mods feel like they are the product of some rare alignment of planets because someone with those skills who happens to like Skyrim and has the time/interest to deal with modding isn't around every corner. But, the reality is that there are a ton of developers with the skills needed to make these mods. They are just busy or maybe don't rate one game over others as much.

[dagobaking]

10 minutes ago, Alkpaz said:

The only problem Komotor is that Kimy kinda backed herself into a corner with her post: "What you can download from the modding sites is 100% free and the real deal. No features will be withheld, nothing will be artificially delayed. This is my promise!" She would be perceived as being dishonest if she was to go your route.  But she can "do her own thing" for a bit instead of having to produce every day/week/month if she wants to. So there are trade-offs. 

I wouldn't hold it against her at all if she wanted to do something different. The anti-pay-mod crowd engages in peer pressure that I think is wrong.

[dagobaking]

3 minutes ago, komotor said:

There is some possible concern about that, but I guess Fore support also some patreon who have also Early access..

And when we talk about paywall there is "paywall" and paywall..
It's not Hardselling here, we still release stuff for free and we do not put all our packs only for paid.
There is a nuance, it's not like on steam.

When are you going to make animations for AAF? 

 

Only a half joke.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Alkpaz said:

The only problem Komotor is that Kimy kinda backed herself into a corner with her post: "What you can download from the modding sites is 100% free and the real deal. No features will be withheld, nothing will be artificially delayed. This is my promise!" She would be perceived as being dishonest if she was to go your route.  But she can "do her own thing" for a bit instead of having to produce every day/week/month if she wants to. So there are trade-offs. 

I understand that very well ..
But there is no reason to look bad if you finally realize what you said does not work.
I was in tipjar too and I said more or less the same thing when I started ..
But We adapt to reality and to our time if we want to see things move ..

If there is a communication to people explaining the reason of the change, and it is done reasonably, people will certainly be understanding.
Even if once again there will always be eternal dissatisfaction, but it's everywhere and for anything.

Look at me, I'm not happy with some things, but I really support other things for good reasons.

 

17 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

When are you going to make animations for AAF? 

 

Only a half joke.

There is a lot of demand for FO4? ?

 

Bah for the moment I have a lot of requests and work on Skyrim.

But as I told you before you do very good work with your framework.
Maybe someday, there are some interesting things to animate also in FO4. 

[dagobaking]

9 minutes ago, komotor said:

There is a lot of demand for FO4? ?

Heh. Not quite sure how it measures. But, definitely an audience. The new AAF animation packs have done well on Nexus and here.

 

9 minutes ago, komotor said:

Bah for the moment I have a lot of requests and work on Skyrim.

But as I told you before you do very good work with your framework.
Maybe someday, there are some interesting things to animate also in FO4. 

Looking forward to it!

 

Hopefully, some of the new ways to use animations beyond 1 pair on the ground will be a draw over time. I'm also wanting to carry AAF over into the next Skyrim (if I am still alive when it releases). Who knows. Maybe I can put it into Starfield also if they use the same Flash UI.

[Halstrom]

1 hour ago, komotor said:

I understand that very well ..
But there is no reason to look bad if you finally realize what you said does not work.
I was in tipjar too and I said more or less the same thing when I started ..
But We adapt to reality and to our time if we want to see things move ..

If there is a communication to people explaining the reason of the change, and it is done reasonably, people will certainly be understanding.
Even if once again there will always be eternal dissatisfaction, but it's everywhere and for anything.

Look at me, I'm not happy with some things, but I really support other things for good reasons.

 

There is a lot of demand for FO4? ?

 

Bah for the moment I have a lot of requests and work on Skyrim.

But as I told you before you do very good work with your framework.
Maybe someday, there are some interesting things to animate also in FO4. 

Well there's a crap load of modders who gave up waiting for Fourplay and are now waiting for AAF and creature/robot animations to do our stuff, even if we get a framework with "fade to black sex" scenes for now it would be a big boost for us to do our stuff.

But its one of those things where its a smaller market than Skyrim etc, so we have less animators who play it.
And we will probably lose momentum in November when Fallout76 is released as half the modders play that

[RitualClarity]

8 hours ago, Halstrom said:

And we will probably lose momentum in November when Fallout76 is released as half the modders play that

That depends on how well and easy it is to mod and if ... it can be modded to the point that most at LL want to mod (if it isn't only a CC mod requirement only.) I will wait a long time before buying that game if there is any issues r/t modding. And then even if there are mods, they will have to mature before I buy another Fallout game. it took a very long time to get Fallout 4 half way decent in the mod area. (tools and such)

[winny257]

so fast it can go, if one problems with Bethesda's legal department gets. 

The text is in German, but should not be a problem.

 

http://www.videogameszone.de/Fallout-3-Spiel-23088/News/Fallout-Fanseite-abgemahnt-Bethesda-fordert-Loeschung-von-Artworks-und-Herausgabe-der-Domain-878556/

[Halstrom]

4 hours ago, RitualClarity said:

That depends on how well and easy it is to mod and if ... it can be modded to the point that most at LL want to mod (if it isn't only a CC mod requirement only.) I will wait a long time before buying that game if there is any issues r/t modding. And then even if there are mods, they will have to mature before I buy another Fallout game. it took a very long time to get Fallout 4 half way decent in the mod area. (tools and such)

Yeah, even though I'm not an MMO fan, it might be the most interesting MMO around since City Of Heroes for me, so I probably will give it a go whether its moddable or not.

[winny257]

Authorship and Legal rights

You are the author of the mod, what does it really mean ?
It means that you own all the rights of the mod, with a few limitations :

Your mod is most likely using the skyrim lore, universe, engine or whatever. It means your content fall under the "Fair use" case. Fair use does not mean Bethesda own your stuff, it only mean that they can prevent you from distributing it and can even ask for damage and interest fees if they think you are hurting their image, making money out of their work, etc... But this would have to be brought to a court. The most likely "bad" thing that can happen is that they don't like your stuff and send you a DMCA preventing you from sharing your work. That's it, and that thing is true for any game mod or fan fiction. They do NOT have any right to sell, use your work, or whatever.

https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/33pw0t/licensing_and_mods_coming_from_a_gamer_with_a_bit/

[TheWilloughbian]

Having been around long enough to have watched the internet/World Wide Web evolve from the start, I would say the biggest reason for it's success (an understatement, I know) is the fact the creators fought to keep it non proprietary and free. The WWW is public domain. Other similar ideas failed because they tried to make their thing proprietary. The notion Sir Berners-Lee had, was to create a platform for the free and instant exchange of information and ideas that everyone could access. I've watched it change the world.

 

That being said, it was inevitable that someone figured out a way to commercialize it. Which, was kind of sad, because an unregulated internet/WWW was a beautiful thing. I blame Metallica. Now the web is mostly a vehicle to market to people. Don't get me wrong I enjoy the convenience of being able to search and buy goods and services online. It just feels like sometime the powers that be, forget that, technically speaking, no one actually "owns" the WWW. The hardware that make up the "internet" is a different story, but anyone with the gear can set up a server that can be accessed on the WWW if they like.

 

Now to the subject at hand. Toolsets, Creation Kits, Map Editors, whatever you want to call them, coming with PC versions of games is a long standing "tradition". The first game I made a mod for was Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds. I haven't played any Lucas Arts games on PC for a long time so I don't know if they still come with toolsets, but they used to. The next was NWN. Then Morrowind. Unreal Tournament Mods were also popular at the time. So user mods for pc games is nothing knew, but back then it was just sort of a "cool bonus" that was done on the side to give people with an interest in gaming a crack at the tools the devs used. 

 

What has changed the landscape so drastically, is being able to use mods on the console versions of games. The hitch is that console gamers can't really troubleshoot mods. No console commands, no way to look into the guts of whatever mod isn't working right. No way to fix a mod that is "broken". The solution Beth came up with is the CC. A way to "guaranty" the functionality of mods for consoles. Whether or not that is going to be the model for how they handle mods for all their games in the future remains to be seen. If they try it, I don't see it being as successful as open modding has been.

 

Now, whether or not people have a right to be paid for their "mods"...

 

The way I see it is thus. Original assets, models/textures, are the property of the creator. If the creator chooses to sell these, or give them away it's their business. The question arises when these assets are placed into a "product" that can be used with a given game. If someone wants to released their work through a distributor that charges money for mods, I guess that's their right. I might be not buying, but then again I don't have too.

 

Are there some mods that I would make a donation to the creator if I could afford it? Certainly, but one of the things that is so appealing about this hobby, is the fact that it can be enjoyed with a very small to no budget. 

 

The stance of the Free Modding hardliners is important in the fact that it does help to keep game modding free and open. If the modding community as a whole just let Steam, Bethesda, or whoever just role over us, without any resistance, we could lose a great media for creative expression, or start seeing access to it being far more restricted.

 

One of the things I like about video games is how they bring together the various artforms and make Art something so immersive and interactive. I know I wouldn't be able to enjoy it as a creative activity, if it wasn't so affordable. 

 

Well this got way to long...

 

[Halstrom]

Then again if companies can't make a commission out of modders works, where's the incentive to keep making easily modable games...
You can wipe 90% of all mods out straight away, professional coders only after that. Arguments and problems are easily solved that way and Users get their wish never have to pay for "unprofessional" mods.

[KoolHndLuke]

34 minutes ago, Halstrom said:

Then again if companies can't make a commission out of modders works, where's the incentive to keep making easily modable games...
You can wipe 90% of all mods out straight away, professional coders only after that.

That is one thing that I think CC might be good for. A successful CC would build incentive for other devs to open their games to modding. Then competition for better mods would perhaps compel them to share more of the profits. As long as Beth/Zen are just focused on making money off consoles (and leave pc alone), then this is a model that could work for most people I think.