Mods and Money!?

[dagobaking]

4 minutes ago, khumak said:

I'm not arguing that a lot of the mods out there are not worth anything.  It's the total cost collectively where the value proposition breaks down for me if they were all paid mods.  If I ran down the list of installed mods in my current game and asked myself if I would pay for this 1 mod if that was the only one I needed, the answer would be yes for every one of them.  If I then add up all of those mods and ask myself if I'd pay $500 for all of them, the answer then becomes no...  If I then multiply that by 4 or 5 or more for all the mods I've tested but am not currently using it becomes a more emphatic no...

If one person made $234k off one .50 cent per download mod, it would attract a ton of other talented coders to try to do the same thing. And you then wouldn't need to suffer through 500 beta mods. The top 50 would probably be better than anything you've seen in the current system and would have cost you $25 at the .50 price tag.

 

Just doing the math on the download statistics, a tiny payment per mod is enough to make it worth it for an individual. It wouldn't take anywhere near $500 per mod user. More like $25-$50 over maybe a year.

 

There are multiple real world examples of a pay model working to both make development more worthwhile for authors and improve the quality and quantity of options. Here is one: https://themeforest.net/page/top_sellers

 

Many talented authors who currently work in high stress, long hour studio jobs (that pay a lot less than many people think) would rush at an opportunity to do the same work from home with similar or better pay. And it would take pennies per user to fund that at the numbers mods are downloaded at.

4 minutes ago, khumak said:

I do think there are probably a small number of modders that might have the skills to produce high quality mods in the sort of volume that would be needed to actually make a living at it but not if they expect to make as much as they would working a normal job that required a similar skill set.  For instance someone who can create The Forgotten City has the skills to just produce a full fledged game (and in fact he's doing exactly that).  How many mods equivalent to The Forgotten City would he have to make to equal whatever he's making with his full fledged game?  100?  1,000?  100,000?

If he has not actually made anything with the new game project, wouldn't the answer be 1? Making an entire game is a huge, risky project. Maybe it will pay off and thats great. But, its a roll of the dice. And if you add up the hours spent, he has a ways to go in terms of payment to cover those hours.

 

On the other hand, something like LooksMenu could be built in a much shorter time. And $234k for that time is a VERY good hourly rate. And again, thats only at .50 cents per user.

4 minutes ago, khumak said:

 

I could be wrong.  Maybe everyone making Creation Club mods is filthy rich now, but I doubt it.

CC is the worst possible outcome here. Where Bethesda, who is already making a ridiculous amount of money off of the game is pulling the strings. They should profit from their work. But, trying to have a hand in modder revenues is really grabby in my opinion.

 

People need to think outside of the box and stop trying to find the magic argument for saving a few dollars. It's like the phenomenon where 1 person with a gun can control a crowd of 200 people. If the crowd. The game buyers. Can recognize their strength (their size), there are ways to focus that on the things we want rather than being led by our noses to believe that Bethesda is the only party that is allowed to make a living at this.

[Pfiffy]

8 minutes ago, MadMansGun said:

 

 

ignore them completely and give them nothing, not even a view count.

 

I don't want to ignore it.... Back to 'some shitty work' .....

[dagobaking]

16 minutes ago, Pfiffy said:

No ports -> No mods for SE -> no further mod development...

 

and/or

 

No permissions -> 'illigal' sharing -> no donations...

 

We wouldn't need ports from old games if there was more incentive to just make new mods for the new games.

[dagobaking]

8 minutes ago, pinky6225 said:

whats the maths for arriving at $500?

 

As i recall i started with 0 mods and added probably a dozen and then a dozen more and so on, i did no go out and find 255 mods to install in one go (and i highly doubt skyrim would be stable if i did) so their suddenly being a charge of a figure like $500 seems a bit excessive/unrealistic

Agreed. Truth is, it would cost users a small amount to make a huge incentive for authors.

[Pfiffy]

2 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

 

We wouldn't need ports from old games if there was more incentive to just make new mods for the new games.

Things like DD or ZAZ have been throu a development of years. Do YOU want to start all over again? And even if you do, are you sure you don't 'steal' someones ideas? 

[dagobaking]

14 minutes ago, Pfiffy said:

Things like DD or ZAZ have been throu a development of years. Do YOU want to start all over again? And even if you do, are you sure you don't 'steal' someones ideas? 

The amount of production happening if it actually paid would make it unnecessary to rely on the same authors. AND the same authors would be more motivated to port these mods themselves with each game release because it would bring them more revenue.

[khumak]

33 minutes ago, pinky6225 said:

whats the maths for arriving at $500?

 

As i recall i started with 0 mods and added probably a dozen and then a dozen more and so on, i did no go out and find 255 mods to install in one go (and i highly doubt skyrim would be stable if i did) so their suddenly being a charge of a figure like $500 seems a bit excessive/unrealistic

A typical playthrough for me has anywhere from around 300 to over 600 mods installed.  So at $1 per mod you're talking $300 to $600 dollars.  Even at 50 cents per mod you're still talking at least $150 to $300 and that assumes it's okay for me to have paid nothing for over 1000 unique downloads of mods I tested but am not currently using.  If I had to pay for those then the total would be over $1000. 

 

From a user perspective it only pencils out if there is a cap on how much total you'd have to spend on an unlimited number of mods.  For a mod author it only pencils out if you assume an unrealistically high percentage of people are going to pay or charge a ridiculous amount for it (and still manage to find people to pay that). 

 

And Pfiffy makes a good point as well about conversions.  With paid mods there's no incentive for a mod author to ever allow use of any of their assets even if they don't plan to do anything further with it themselves.

 

Now for a different that doesn't need so many mods to be playable sure.  I would have paid for Long War for Xcom 2 if it wasn't free.  Then again, that's the only mod I use in that game...  How many people would still be playing Skyrim if they could only use a single mod?

[Halstrom]

1 hour ago, MadMansGun said:

because i have already lost one community to capitalistic domino effect bullshit like this.

Yeah that Steam debarcle of the communist users dictating to steam that modders weren't going to be able to sell mods already screwed the NewVegas Sexout modding community nicely when it cheesed off Prideslayer so much he left.

In the end if people want something bad enough they will make a calculated decision on whether its value for money or not. If they have to pay $5 for a base mod like FO4SE or CBBE or Looks menu to use other $5 mods they will look at the reviews and do it. Paying for mods doesn't mean some guy who spends a few hours porting a Samus outfit will get $20 for it if he wants to charge that. Maybe the modder who spends 50 hours on a kickarse DVA retexture will make $5 sales, i'd pay that.

Hell forbid if people had to make their own lunch one day a week, skip a can of coke or cigarette occasionally to afford a few $1 outfit mods. Look at what the most popular mods are priced at in Second Life and have been priced at over its lifetime. Only complex animations and scripted mods can make regular sales for US$4.

[Pfiffy]

1 minute ago, dagobaking said:

The amount of production happening if it actually paid would make it unnecessary to rely on the same authors. AND the same authors would be more motivated to port these mods themselves with each game release because it would bring them more revenue.

It doesn't really work out that way... When it comes to porting mods a lot of authors just say: 'stick to oldrim' 

Some are out of buisness, some don't play SE...

A lot of things that are done for SE by now, have been communty work, because there is noone else there to do the shitty work....

 

[dagobaking]

4 minutes ago, khumak said:

A typical playthrough for me has anywhere from around 300 to over 600 mods installed.  So at $1 per mod you're talking $300 to $600 dollars.  Even at 50 cents per mod you're still talking at least $150 to $300 and that assumes it's okay for me to have paid nothing for over 1000 unique downloads of mods I tested but am not currently using.  If I had to pay for those then the total would be over $1000. 

That's a really extreme case. I've been modding for years and have never had a build with over 200 mods. There are always going to be some users that buy more than others. Just like the games themselves. Some people have every new game that comes out (and spend a lot) and others just play the same 5-6.

 

Also, just like the other pay communities I alluded to (the link) plus the App Store, Play Store and on and on, there are still free items. The ones that would cost .50 cents or whatever would only be able to do so because they proved that they are the best options.

4 minutes ago, khumak said:

 

From a user perspective it only pencils out if there is a cap on how much total you'd have to spend on an unlimited number of mods.  For a mod author it only pencils out if you assume an unrealistically high percentage of people are going to pay or charge a ridiculous amount for it (and still manage to find people to pay that). 

 .50 cents is not a ridiculous amount that anyone would (or should) balk at. And its enough to make a mod author a 1 percenter in a year. It clearly would not be expensive for the user to create compensation that is actually better than what those trades make at studios on average.

 

I have shown other communities that already work this way and are chalked full of people/groups that have turned single pieces of software into viable, highly profitable businesses. This is way better than consolidating all of the income of an industry into big companies. What I am advocating for is like utilizing local farmers markets compared to shipping in the GMO bananas.

4 minutes ago, khumak said:

 

And Pfiffy makes a good point as well about conversions.  With paid mods there's no incentive for a mod author to ever allow use of any of their assets even if they don't plan to do anything further with it themselves.

If it's a mod that people want, one of two things will happen. Either the original author will port it themselves. Or, someone will recognize that them quitting a popular mod is an opportunity and they will make something to fill in the void.

4 minutes ago, khumak said:

 

Now for a different that doesn't need so many mods to be playable sure.  I would have paid for Long War for Xcom 2 if it wasn't free.  Then again, that's the only mod I use in that game...  How many people would still be playing Skyrim if they could only use a single mod?

I don't think anyone would be stuck at one at .50 cents a piece.

[dagobaking]

11 minutes ago, Pfiffy said:

It doesn't really work out that way... When it comes to porting mods a lot of authors just say: 'stick to oldrim' 

Some are out of buisness, some don't play SE...

A lot of things that are done for SE by now, have been communty work, because there is noone else there to do the shitty work....

 

This just points out a flaw in the current system. Of course they say stick with oldrim. Because they gain nothing by porting and only lose time. People grow into other chapters of their lives. But, if you give them an adult reason to mod, like income, they will not say "stick to oldrim". They will say, yes, I will do that so that I don't have to take this other job that I don't like.

 

The sad thing is that this model is on its way. And the mod community is only shooting themselves in the foot by not taking control of it. Now, someone like Bethesda or Steam will end up controlling the "App Store" for mods and mod authors will get less because of it.

 

Would be great if the standard market grew from mod communities.

[pinky6225]

22 minutes ago, khumak said:

A typical playthrough for me has anywhere from around 300 to over 600 mods installed.  So at $1 per mod you're talking $300 to $600 dollars.  Even at 50 cents per mod you're still talking at least $150 to $300 and that assumes it's okay for me to have paid nothing for over 1000 unique downloads of mods I tested but am not currently using.  If I had to pay for those then the total would be over $1000. 

 

From a user perspective it only pencils out if there is a cap on how much total you'd have to spend on an unlimited number of mods.  For a mod author it only pencils out if you assume an unrealistically high percentage of people are going to pay or charge a ridiculous amount for it (and still manage to find people to pay that). 

 

And Pfiffy makes a good point as well about conversions.  With paid mods there's no incentive for a mod author to ever allow use of any of their assets even if they don't plan to do anything further with it themselves.

 

Now for a different that doesn't need so many mods to be playable sure.  I would have paid for Long War for Xcom 2 if it wasn't free.  Then again, that's the only mod I use in that game...  How many people would still be playing Skyrim if they could only use a single mod?

how long does this go on for since finding 300 to 600 mods to play surely takes quite a long time let alone playing and seeing what they do so are we talking about $300 to $600 over the course of a number of years?

 

Having any sort of pay gate would cut into downloads i'm sure as there are plenty of mods on nexus and LL that i've looked at and tried on the off chance rather than something i really want in my game so yes if i'd had to have paid any sort of fee for those i'd not have tried them - having unpaid for demo's would solve that i suppose

 

Not really playing skyrim at the moment but have everything installed still and their are quite a few mods i'm still using where the install date is 2014 so if we were to price up my mod list of 211 items over 4 years thats what $1 a week at $1 a mod

[Pfiffy]

4 minutes ago, Alkpaz said:

Dagobaking does have a point.. either we keep it small business or we let the corporations do it for us, and it seems as though they are moving in that direction. 

Or did they just take a look at the communities and found out that a lot of money slipped throu their fingers?

[27X]

1 hour ago, dagobaking said:

Agreed. Truth is, it would cost users a small amount to make a huge incentive for authors.

Sims and Second Life have shown this to be categorically false. Your keep talking as if theoretical scenarios will become fact if but coulda woulda maybe this one time at band camp, and the facts, repeatedly demonstrated facts, are that's not what happens. Not with Sims, not with SFM, not with Blender Pr0n, not with pay-for-episode deviantart shit, not with Second Life, not with paid Gmod server plugins.

 

Has not happened, and will not happen this time either as literal decades now of circumferential payment schemes have shown.

[27X]

7 minutes ago, Alkpaz said:

Dagobaking does have a point.. either we keep it small business or we let the corporations do it for us, and it seems as though they are moving in that direction. 

Corporations are moving to 100% serverside content, and there will be no modding as it currently exists unless the company explicitly codes for it.

[27X]

For AAA, there is no maybe. I work in the industry and this is the model every company of a certain size is already committed to moving to: Sony, Microsoft, TakeTwo, EA, UBI, Zenimax, Activision, Tencent, Perfect World, Capcom, Bandai-Namco, and others. Even Nintendo.

 

A game "that's yours" will be a choice in the next generation of consoles, and it's rather unlikely any PC only developer would buck that trend where they can control virtually all of the content and therefore the money thereafter.

[dagobaking]

8 minutes ago, 27X said:

Sims and Second Life have shown this to be categorically false. Your keep talking as if theoretical scenarios will become fact if but coulda woulda maybe  and the facts, repeatedly demonstrated facts, are that's not what happens. Not with Sims, not with SFM, not with Blender Pr0n, not with pay-for episode deviantart shit, not with Second Life, not with paid Gmod server plugins.

 

Has not happened, and will not happen this time either as literal decades now of circumferential payment schemes have shown.

Was the link that I posted theoretical? Is the App Store theoretical? I am not talking theory. I have provided concrete evidence that backs up my point. Has happened already many times. Our entire economy is based on markets.

 

Every single example you gave of it "not happening" are cases where the market is already saturated with free content. Of course nobody paid for mods when they could get the same thing for free in that specific circumstance.

 

I am arguing that trying to persist with that model is 1. not going to work long term and 2. does not make the best results for users.

7 minutes ago, 27X said:

Corporations are moving to 100% serverside content, and there will be no modding as it currently exists unless the company explicitly codes for it.

And this demonstrates why 1. above is right. Free modding is easily undermined and nobody loses a dime over it. A market of mod producers and buyers is a business opportunity for the studios.

[GrimReaper]

Apps are usually one time standalone software that give you a full package. Mods rely on a pre-existing game and usually other mods to work. I mean, if you're able to create an expansive mod like sexlab with all its dependencies, addons, extension and animation packs all by yourself, then maybe we could talk about monetizing that. An honest way to make money with coding/modelling/texturing/animation skills and knowledge would be to develop your own game. But with games you enter the world of legal business and you've got to pay for everything you might wanna use to make your game. No more student version of 3ds Max for you, oh no no no.

[27X]

40 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

Was the link that I posted theoretical? Is the App Store theoretical? I am not talking theory. I have provided concrete evidence that backs up my point. Has happened already many times. Our entire economy is based on markets.

 

Every single example you gave of it "not happening" are cases where the market is already saturated with free content. Of course nobody paid for mods when they could get the same thing for free in that specific circumstance.

 

I am arguing that trying to persist with that model is 1. not going to work long term and 2. does not make the best results for users.

And this demonstrates why 1. above is right. Free modding is easily undermined and nobody loses a dime over it. A market of mod producers and buyers is a business opportunity for the studios.

Wrong.

 

Every "market" I stated is where currently paywalled content game/interactive content is the norm and far outweighs timed or "unlockable" content with time instances or other means of getting it. You haven't the faintest. You listed a corollary that doesn't even apply to the topic at hand and then played your trump card of dolphin breathe air, humans breathe air, dolphins = humans.

 

Nope.

 

The top five people on Patreon, east and west get literally paid to do nothing but assemble or "borrow" other people's work into packages anyone with an ounce of common sense and the rule of advertising that here is advertise only if you plan making that content not payed in three months or there abouts, all of the top earning folks ignore this openly.

 

I have to get to Komotor, whom isn't even in the top eight, before I get to someone that actually does their own work and also does exactly that the page says they do, both here and there. For the Sims it isn't even in the top 25.

 

Your randian reganomics theory doesn't exist as a working model and hasn't worked yet in 15 years of Bethesda/EA/Adult modding. If I dug around in FO modding I bet it doesn't exist there either.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, asenasen said:

I agree with GrimReaper. Modding is a hobby and should just stay a hobby. Asking money for mods is like as if you used to play balls with your friends on the weekend, and now you demand them to pay you for your time before even leaving the house. It just looks scummy.

Depend what we do....

I'm not going to build advanced rig about every month, that cost between 150 & 250$ without animations if I need to paid that to someone having the same skills
So give always all for free because I do that for skyrim.. mhhh
There is fun modding & serious modding.

 

I focus on my patreon to work for many people..
But I can make some 3d advertising elements for local companies.
Work easier, and I can charge between 400 and 700 € for not even half of the work that I do on many of my animations for skyrim...
I know the cost and the value of what I do... That's my work...

But for now It's more "fun" for me to build adult animations and work for lot of people around the world than made advertising elements for any company..

And it's not users having no idea of what kind of work and the value of these work who is going to tell me that I NEED to give that for free...
What tomorrow I offert my car, my shirt and my underpants because the users want that the workers must be naked?
Users have no idea of what most does, they talk, complain but do not know about what they talk.. 
It's to the creators doing something to know the value of their work and to ask something..

[GrimReaper]

22 minutes ago, komotor said:

Depend what we do....

I'm not going to build advanced rig about every month, that cost between 150 & 250$ without animations if I need to paid that to someone having the same skills
So give always all for free because I do that for skyrim.. mhhh
There is fun modding & serious modding.

 

I focus on my patreon to work for many people..
But I can make some 3d advertising elements for local companies.
Work easier, and I can charge between 400 and 700 € for not even half of the work that I do on many of my animations for skyrim...
I know the cost and the value of what I do... That's my work...

But for now It's more "fun" for me to build adult animations and work for lot of people around the world than made advertising elements for any company..

And it's not users having no idea of what kind of work and the value of these work who is going to tell me that I NEED to give that for free...
What tomorrow I offert my car, my shirt and my underpants because the users want that the workers must be naked?
Users have no idea of what most does, they talk, complain but do not know about what they talk.. 
It's to the creators doing something to know the value of their work and to ask something..

The market doesn't care about value or work, the market cares about supply and demand. Consumers as well don't give a shit about how much work someone put into something, they care about accessibility, convenience and good deals. If we're talking about adult modding, many consumers would rather pay for a good video rather than a bunch of mods. Why? Because getting mods to work is hard for most people. Watching a video isn't. Those adult mods need to be put into the right context - you'll need a ton of graphical enhancement mods like texture and mesh replacers, lighting mods, ENBs and so on for Skyrim to look decent. When it comes to the video, you click play, have fun, and you're done. You may cry about how unfair that is, but the truth of the matter is you (not you specifically, but the people that push paid mods, either creators or supporters) invited the market into the modding community and as long as the market works in your favor (but to the disadvantage of others) everything is fine and dandy but if it works against you suddenly you want to invoke ye olde modding codex about permissions and respect. You can have it one way or the other, not both at the same time.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, GrimReaper said:

The market doesn't care about value or work, the market cares about supply and demand. Consumers as well don't give a shit about how much work someone put into something, they care about accessibility, convenience and good deals. If we're talking about adult modding, many consumers would rather pay for a good video rather than a bunch of mods. Why? Because getting mods to work is hard for most people. Watching a video isn't. Those adult mods need to be put into the right context - you'll need a ton of graphical enhancement mods like texture and mesh replacers, lighting mods, ENBs and so on for Skyrim to look decent. When it comes to the video, you click play, have fun, and you're done. You may cry about how unfair that is, but the truth of the matter is you (not you specifically, but the people that push paid mods, either creators or supporters) invited the market into the modding community and as long as the market works in your favor (but to the disadvantage of others) everything is fine and dandy but if it works against you suddenly you want to invoke ye olde modding codex about permissions and respect. You can have it one way or the other, not both at the same time.

 

I do animations and videos, I have some people for videos, but the BIG majority is for animations for the game..
I do that since long enough and I'm not 63th on 860 patreon animators for nothing... and that with skyrim...

I let you imaginate if I drop skyrim to made what I do for the sims, be happy that I continue for Skyrim..

I have my way of doing, whatever the market share, I have my proper style and my own market share,

I keep my work and distribute in my way to avoid concern from people who do not respect the work made by the others..

I put a value on my work of course.. You can get a piece of meat in a burger in macdonald, it's cheap, it's fast.but

If you want something more refined and requires more time you have to pay a little more .. and I remain very cheap for what I offer.

As said I could made something else, I do that also as services for many people.

 

And I remember that Patreon is for CREATORS not for those who compile the work of the creators, these page are currently closed one after the others...

Check your friend immersive porn, it's bad time for him, because he's not considered as creator, he film only pornography, and fund pornography on patreon is not allowed..
So if some made compilations is took the content of others and patreon can close these pages if there is a demand from the original creator/s.


 

[Guest]

Another major problem for me would be paying for mods A-la-cart. Running about a hundred mods per game, but different games with different themes having different mods, means hundreds of mods in my setup. I'd pay for a core of mods, the rest, I just wouldn't use. How many people would be like that? Probably enough where the entire hobby would noticably shrink. So where's the balance. Paying into mods will turn it into a self limiting system. People won't pay for hundreds of mods. How many will the average person buy? a few dozen? Maybe a hundred?

 

IIt will also shorten the lifespan of the base game as well. Skyrim lives on because of modding. Does anyone still play SLE on X-Box? If the overall lifespan of the game's life is shorted, then people who are looking for $$$ will have to move on to more fertile feeding grounds much sooner and there won't be the depth of modding like what we see in the PC version of SLE now.

[woodsman30]

31 minutes ago, GrimReaper said:

The market doesn't care about value or work, the market cares about supply and demand. Consumers as well don't give a shit about how much work someone put into something, they care about accessibility, convenience and good deals.

That goes across the board in all work environments but it is a double edge sword quality takes time and effort and most will not pay for quality. As far as "paid mods" I am on the fence I get it the work is there as is the time... however wants, desires, and need rule the human species. If someone wants it bad enough they will pay for it but in general I'll say no. Games for me and I believe for most people is a hobby or you just have some time to waste..like nothing on TV or raining outside. I myself will not buy a game and have to buy mods for it because there is no free market for them I have way better things to do and if that is the trend I will say goodbye to gaming all together. Now I will donate but refuse to use Patron. I will pay for a mod if I commission it but again that's wants and desires and I don't need anything that is the way it is.

Finale thoughts are if you believe your going to make a living doing mods perhaps you should work for a gaming company or as a programmer. Bethesda sees the market and I would be shocked if they let free mods continue they want a piece of the pie or any gaming company as far as that goes. What I am surprised about is how these gaming companies don't hit you-tubers with copyright infringement as they are making money off a copyrighted product... just saying.

[Cezul]

The whole CC model could be cool, if it was done properly, and Bethesda actually took the time to garner, coach and support modders to produce DLC or Expansion type content. 
 Things like new lands, large quests, new skills and new weapon types with their own animations rather than some janky jury rig type deal would be worth paying $$$ for. If we're paying money it definitely needs to be of a professional quality.

I think they'd be too lazy to actually curate and cultivate that type of content though.

Save all the single off weapon/armor mods, reskins, and sexy mods ( which would never be allowed anyway ) for the free modding community to do.