Mods and Money!?

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

Paid mods were an inevitability, unfortunately. No art form remains free forever. It's Bugthesda's hypocritical attitude that really did the harm: they demand no one pays for mods created using something they made, unless they're the ones getting paid. I have no issues with paying a little bit for early access for mods so long as those mods in their full form are released for free in the near future. Modders who put out deprecated versions of their mods for free and keep the full versions behind paywalls, much less who keep their mods behind paywalls permanently, are the real parasites.

The problem I have, and the point at which I will drop Bethesda is when they release their buggy game with no intention to fix their work because....you know.......Unofficial Patches take care of that...But then when those patches which are all but required to play the game as intended, will also require money above and beyond the cost of the game, I will call it a day with Bethesda.Yes, I do believe that if Arthmoor is fixing Skyrim and he wants money to do it, then, he should get it..........But not mine, I already bought the game and I expect it to work properly. Bethesda should pay him for making their busted shit work.

[Sir Artsy]

I have a personal beef with some "patreon modders"

 

To make it short: If you make something yourself.. Say using 3Dsmax, Marvelous Designer or (sculpter here) then i can support it.

IF you use patreon to get money to share Bless Online, Black Desert files.. You are bad as Krista who retopo edits DAZ stuff and sells them.

 

( and this post may trigger someone xD )

[Guest]

Just now, bishlapped said:

The problem I have, and the point at which I will drop Bethesda is when they release their buggy game with no intention to fix their work because....you know.......Unofficial Patches take care of that...But then when those patches which are all but required to play the game as intended, will also require money above and beyond the cost of the game, I will call it a day with Bethesda.Yes, I do believe that if Arthmoor is fixing Skyrim and he wants money to do it, then, he should get it..........But not mine, I already bought the game and I expect it to work properly. Bethesda should pay him for making their busted shit work.

That's actually a very good point "I do believe that if Arthmoor is fixing Skyrim and he wants money to do it, then, he should get it..........But not mine, I already bought the game and I expect it to work properly. Bethesda should pay him for making their busted shit work.", another point that I had not considered

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, Reginald_001 said:

I just know that if I find anyone using or porting Ivy to another engine (say Skyrim) without permission or even contacting me. They'd be facing a hard time in their foreseeable future. I'm not too low to hire lawyers and let them do dirty work if someone steals my assets... And in fact I still google my old mods to see if people aren't stealing my work. ?

I don't own Fo4...Not yet anyway, so I'm not very familiar with it's mods. But I clicked on your IVY link......That is some funny shit in that trailer. Especially the part where she want's to scream...I laughed.

[Reginald_001]

17 minutes ago, -Caden- said:

I appreciate you sharing those experiences. a lot of people have not experienced those, (myself included)so that's why some things people say do not make sense at times.

 

In the end of this whole discussion thou, would you have a issue with people wanting to donate for work you have personally done?

Personally, I'd love to get money for the 4 months of writing work I put into Companion Ivy. I'd love to get money for the daily and continued support I offer to anyone asking it in the support thread, even though in 90% of the cases the bugs did not arise from my mod, but from other mods doing things (...in a not so nice way...). 

 

I think I have a Flattr account somewhere, I'll see if I can add the Flattr link to the original download topic.

 

4 minutes ago, bishlapped said:

I don't own Fo4...Not yet anyway, so I'm not very familiar with it's mods. But I clicked on your IVY link......That is some funny shit in that trailer. Especially the part where she want's to scream...I laughed.

Thanks! I've had a hoot making her and she's a good reason to try Fo4...

[Tweens]

1 hour ago, winny257 said:

I find it reprehensible to sell mods, for the simple reason because all rights are with the game developer.

 

 

This is probably the most overlooked aspect of pay to play mods and even donation based modding; but it is also the most important.

 

Bethesda has stated explicitly in their TOU that all "Derivative Works" belong to them.  Even though my animations are made completely by me, they still rely on Bethesda's game engine to be functional.  That is "technically" a derivative work; and in law, technicalities are important.  This is the main reason that modders credit Bethesda on the main page of their download. 

 

If Bethesda sees a modder making money, they could sue that modder for a percentage of the profits; or all of them, since it was done without permission.  I am quite confident that the courts would rule in favor of Bethesda, since we all agreed to abide by the TOU when we installed the game; as well as the making of money, without paying royalties, can be shown as damaging to the company.  Granted, it may be more difficult to prosecute someone outside of the US; but not impossible.  Especially if there is a large enough incentive, or if the mods reside on a US based server. 

 

It is fine to be modding for free, and Bethesda actively encourages it; but once money enters the picture the dynamic changes drastically. 

[Pfiffy]

I start to wonder, what you all would think about, if I really open up a patreon account. We have @Kimy , I just did the port of her DD and DCL, We have @-Caden-, that brought it up, and a lot of ppl with pros and cons about that in general. And I have a mail in pm box from of one Modder, that told me I should remove the link to his patreon from the DL page, with one of the mods i ported with his permission, because some of the assets he used are not his own work. Would it be OK, If i make an accout so ppl could make donations to me?

[Kimy]

7 hours ago, Tweens said:

 

Bethesda has stated explicitly in their TOU that all "Derivative Works" belong to them.  Even though my animations are made completely by me, they still rely on Bethesda's game engine to be functional.  That is "technically" a derivative work; and in law, technicalities are important.  This is the main reason that modders credit Bethesda on the main page of their download.

In practice it's not so easy. If someone makes an animation in Blender, converts it, packs it into an archive and offers it for download together with a text file another independent app (FNIS) can process, they can safely argue that at no point they had to agree to Beth's TOS to do that. The sheer fact that the Skyrim engine is able to load an asset into the game doesn't make it derivative work.

 

As for donations, they'd have to prove (as in beyond reasonable doubt) that the person got these donations -exactly- for modding -their- games, and not any other mods for other games that person happens to have released, or for their short-stories they have published elsewhere, or because their forum avatar is so pretty. That's not even counting the PR disaster they'd get from going after somebody's tip jar, when their mods are otherwise available 100% in compliance with their TOS, and not pay-walled. If you really go THAT far, you might argue that LL and Nexus are violating Beth's TOS because they use ads on their sites hosting Beth game mods - which constitutes a commercial activity.

[worik]

17 minutes ago, Pfiffy said:

Would it be OK, If i make an accout so ppl could make donations to me?

Don't forget to mention that income in your annual income tax statement.

Otherwise it would be considered a major crime. Depending on your city, they have an eye on those websites with cash flows. Doesn't matter if it's 10€/year or 10.000€

[Pfiffy]

1 minute ago, Alkpaz said:

It gives people a choice, in all reality. I don't consider it begging, just an option. Just look at the numbers I have already posted, and you can expect a few people to donate. I usually donate to mods I use frequently. Kimy's and DC's fall under that. Look at how many people use DD/DCL and then look at Kimy's overview. Even though I don't play Skyrim much anymore I still donate to them, it makes me feel better, call me selfish.

That is not the question... See, I'm porting. Moving oldrim mods to SE... So it is not really 'my' work, that I would get donations for, but it is the work of others, that I make availible for SE users. Caden said, that I should open up an account. But that would also mean making money with the work of other ppl...I'm not talking about putting the mods behind a paywall, but just offering a way to 'honor' my part of the work, as good or bad as it is....

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Alkpaz said:

Since Arthmoor was mentioned, I might as well give you how many donations on Patreon he receives: https://www.patreon.com/arthmoor/overview 49! for all the work he has done over the years, maintaining a website (AFKMods), helping others, etc only 48 others choose to donate. 

sad

 

15 minutes ago, Pfiffy said:

I start to wonder, what you all would think about, if I really open up a patreon account. We have @Kimy , I just did the port of her DD and DCL, We have @-Caden-, that brought it up, and a lot of ppl with pros and cons about that in general. And I have a mail in pm box from of one Modder, that told me I should remove the link to his patreon from the DL page, with one of the mods i ported with his permission, because some of the assets he used are not his own work. Would it be OK, If i make an accout so ppl could make donations to me?

I do not se anything wrong with it, people have patreon for many reasons, yours, you help other modders port to sse, you give advice to others, and are busy helping the community, there is no reason not to have a patreon in my opinion, and if you do I will be a supporter

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Pfiffy said:

That is not the question... See, I'm porting. Moving oldrim mods to SE... So it is not really 'my' work, that I would get donations for, but it is the work of others, that I make availible for SE users. Caden said, that I should open up an account. But that would also mean making money with the work of other ppl...I'm not talking about putting the mods behind a paywall, but just offering a way to 'honor' my part of the work, as good or bad as it is....

you would not be making money on other peoples work, you would get donations for the appreciation of helping other peoples work, work on a different platform, the TIME you took help things work

[KoolHndLuke]

Mod rewards on Nexus tries to address the lack of support to mod authors if anyone didn't notice. Would be nice to see something similar from Beth/Zen who is reaping the rewards from modders of their games and has a helluva lot more money to share. But, who the fuck am I kidding?!

[SirDuke]

May I just ask, if all of the Patreon users and PayPal recievers have an agreement with the IRS or their local tax office?

I mean, you surely MUST inform your tax agency about your new income, or don´t you?

 

And when I pay for mods, I surely do have customer rights, am I right?

When I have paid, you must deliver, don´t you?

And if it isn´t working as described, you must rework, correct?

 

*** this was meant a bit sarcastic; just to point out some problems with paid mods... ***

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Pfiffy said:

That is not the question... See, I'm porting. Moving oldrim mods to SE... So it is not really 'my' work, that I would get donations for, but it is the work of others, that I make availible for SE users. Caden said, that I should open up an account. But that would also mean making money with the work of other ppl...I'm not talking about putting the mods behind a paywall, but just offering a way to 'honor' my part of the work, as good or bad as it is....

Ask yourself this, do youtubers have a patreon? for uploading videos of other peoples mods, and showcasing them? Yes they do and no one complains

[Guest]

1 minute ago, SirDuke said:

May I just ask, if all of the Patreon users and PayPal recievers have an agreement with the IRS or their local tax office?

 

I mean, you surely MUST inform your tax agency about your new income, or don´t you?

I think your supposed to report it if you make so much a year, but do not quote me on that because It is just stuff I have heard, I have never actually looked into it

[Kimy]

7 hours ago, -Caden- said:

I think your supposed to report it if you make so much a year, but do not quote me on that because It is just stuff I have heard, I have never actually looked into it

They make you fill a form, they will show the IRS if they get audited (and IRS does share data with international tax agencies, so don't think you're safe just because you're not a US person). You get a statement once a year listing how much money Patreon has sent you, so that's what you need to report in your tax statement.

[Pfiffy]

21 minutes ago, -Caden- said:

you would not be making money on other peoples work, you would get donations for the appreciation of helping other peoples work, work on a different platform, the TIME you took help things work

Well, I'm asking because I want to find out how ppl see this. We have Modders and Users here. You brought it up, so for you it is ok. but I would really like to know, how other ppl see it. Especially Kimy and Reginald. But also the others here. I'm curiopus... maybe I should start a poll about that.

Especisally with view on the fact, that I did the most important things with help from others. And right now I'm not only talking about the ppl who contributed to CF and DD, but also the other pll int that contributed with informatins and tips in the conversion tracking thread. As I have said, CF was a comunity work. 

[pinky6225]

18 hours ago, 27X said:

 

Pfiffy hasn't done a fucking thing. He's literally slapped some script and apps together he didn't even make, and in some cases has shit on his drive he didn't even ask permission for until after he converted them.

 

But good job on exactly highlighting why your premise is both wrong and incredibly flawed. I need to PAY someone to convert something they didn't even make to an upscaled port? Get the fuck out of here. As someone whom MAKES their mod content from line of code one and pixel one and polygon one, you haven't the faintest.

 

How about as the modder I choose what my mods are and do, and where they are put, and if ANY money is to change hands, it's not up to you. It's up to the author.

From the various other threads along this theme that have cropped up i thought you were against paid mods on principle but your actually saying you want the author of any given content (that they have solely created) to be able to make this decision for themselves which makes sense

[Kimy]

7 hours ago, Pfiffy said:

Well, I'm asking because I want to find out how ppl see this. We have Modders and Users here. You brought it up, so for you it is ok. but I would really like to know, how other ppl see it. Especially Kimy and Reginald. But also the others here. I'm curiopus... maybe I should start a poll about that.

Especisally with view on the fact, that I did the most important things with help from others. And right now I'm not only talking about the ppl who contributed to CF and DD, but also the other pll int that contributed with informatins and tips in the conversion tracking thread. As I have said, CF was a comunity work. 

If you set up a Patreon, I'd never have the feeling that you're profiteering off my work or the work of the other modders you've ported. You'd be getting rewarded for YOUR work, which is porting the mods. I wouldn't have the slightest problem with it. Why would I?

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, Kimy said:

If you set up a Patreon, I'd never have the feeling that you're profiteering off my work or the work of the other modders you've ported. You'd be getting rewarded for YOUR work, which is porting the mods. I wouldn't have the slightest problem with it. Why would I?

Thank you Kimy, I think it means a lot hearing that from you because you have one of the biggest mods on here

[Pfiffy]

8 minutes ago, Kimy said:

If you set up a Patreon, I'd never have the feeling that you're profiteering off my work or the work of the other modders you've ported. You'd be getting rewarded for YOUR work, which is porting the mods. I wouldn't have the slightest problem with it. Why would I?

Would be interesting to know how other modders see this. Especially those who made the anims, I have ported. Some of them have at least early access stuff on patreon. (I wonder if i can open up a patreon without having anything behind it...) What I do is not really modding, but I'm also not a simple user. I'm something in between. If I talk to ppl I sometimes don't really know if they worship me or if they are pissed off by what I'm doing. I don't like it in both ways. 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Pfiffy said:

Would be interesting to know how other modders see this. Especially those who made the anims, I have ported. Some of them have at least early access stuff on patreon. (I wonder if i can open up a patreon without having anything behind it...) What I do is not really modding, but I'm also not a simple user. I'm something in between. If I talk to ppl I sometimes don't really know if they worship me or if they are pissed off by what I'm doing. I don't like it in both ways. 

In the end if you decide too, your not getting paid for other peoples content, you would get donations for work you have done so others can use the content from oldrim

[Kimy]

7 hours ago, Pfiffy said:

Would be interesting to know how other modders see this. Especially those who made the anims, I have ported. Some of them have at least early access stuff on patreon. (I wonder if i can open up a patreon without having anything behind it...) What I do is not really modding, but I'm also not a simple user. I'm something in between. If I talk to ppl I sometimes don't really know if they worship me or if they are pissed off by what I'm doing. I don't like it in both ways. 

Patreon does not compel you to offer any tangible rewards. You can collect payments for just about anything that's not illegal by law. You do not have to have on-site rewards, either. My own Patreon doesn't even offer a link to my mods anywhere on the page, and certainly not a download. I have a few Patron-only posts that are meant to keep in touch with my supporters and talk about otherwise unannounced features etc., but I don't do that "Early Access" stuff, either. It's essentally a "Hey, if you like me and what I am doing, you can leave a tip here!" page. Yours would probably be very similar.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Pfiffy said:

I start to wonder, what you all would think about, if I really open up a patreon account. We have @Kimy , I just did the port of her DD and DCL, We have @-Caden-, that brought it up, and a lot of ppl with pros and cons about that in general. And I have a mail in pm box from of one Modder, that told me I should remove the link to his patreon from the DL page, with one of the mods i ported with his permission, because some of the assets he used are not his own work. Would it be OK, If i make an accout so ppl could make donations to me?

Nope, My point of view is exactly the same as for SFMFUTAFAN case..
It's steal stuff, even if some look ok with that.. Not me, and also why I not allowed the port of my stuff, because I was sure that is going to happen from ya..

 

If it's so easy to get money, I drop all creations, and convert all the animations of the other into a mega pack, I get all the patrons of these creators with their work. And  I get more than all of them...
And I touch my balls by doing nothing...

Some are really dumb here and as said, talk about work for what is not.. Stop the joke..