Sexlab Survival

[Thurlam]

4 hours ago, tamai said:

words

 

My perspective is pretty simple, really; of course MM1 has the right to do whatever he wants with his published work. And if he felt the need to nuke it all in order to have peace of mind, so be it. Up to him. But the fact remains that it was publicly and freely available for years on end, and still has a large volume of users who want to access that content to this day. Mod and mod author are separate entities; you can respect the author's wishes, thank them for their work, and wish for their well being, but there simply isn't anything to be gained by denying users access to mods. At best that will create a sort of seedy underground file sharing hub where they will be distributed anyway. Say what you will about the ethics of the situation, but the reality is that they're out there forever, and attempting to censor them from the site can only practically serve as an inconvenience to a large body of users who will simply have to find them elsewhere. That, or they just won't get the mod, and the only thing that does is make people's personal gameplay experiences worse. I'm not seeing the upside here.

 

I don't see this as a selfish take so much as a realist/practical take. It just seems to me like adhering to a policy of mod censorship is merely a misguided (if admirable) attempt to take a moral high ground when the actual end result of doing so is pure downside. Let the man nuke everything if he wants, but let the people redistribute as well. I get that y'all have the best intentions, and you may even be morally in the right, but sometimes you gotta step back and look at the practical effects of what you're advocating for. Idealism often does not map 1:1 with reality.

 

(And for the record I haven't even had Skyrim installed in well over a year now, so none of this has anything to do with a personal desire to access the files.)

 

I do wish MM1 the best, I greatly respect his work and truly hope he finds a place where he is sustainably happy and healthy. I just don't agree with the concept of attempting to blacklist his mods from the internet, even if that's what he wants, because ultimately it's both impossible (people will retain these mods and redistribute them somewhere) and because it's actively harmful (the practical end result is merely a mix of inconvenience and diminished gameplay experience, at best). Your heart may be in the right place here, but that's about all that can be said in favor of a blacklist policy.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Thurlam

[xcrunner15]

On 10/26/2023 at 11:02 AM, Monoman1 said:

2. Someone mentioned modpacks. Yea, maybe a factor. Not a big one though. Handy of course for users but I think possibly damaging for long term for modding in general. Positive reinforcement/engagement is definitely down around here since it's advent. And it's not like us modders get much else for our work. I think SLS beta had ~83000 downloads. 53 'endorsements'. Nearly 1600 DLs per endorsement. Obviously a lot of auto downloading going on. The only people showing up in threads are people with problems. Problems that either A) are well known or B) are completely off the mark due to the users complete lack of knowledge. I'd also point out that a necessity to be knowledgeable about mods is what lead me to modding in the first place. Less knowledgeable people around would probably indicate less modders and less mods going forward. 

 

 

A detail you may not know of is that wabbajack cannot skip a mod so one item being down kills entire lists. I can understand your feelings about modlists but I have to disagree about their utility and influence. Making mods more accessible will only help the scene grow and even as a capable modder I mainly use wabbajack as I like the way curators build their lists around different themes and playstyles. List creation is itself an impressive feat of conflict resolution and the curators do it for free and continue to provide support for their community. The curators using your mod were promoting it while also making a buffer between you and a lot of users who would probably be spamming you for support otherwise.

 

Additionally since you haven't used wabbajack let me clarify that it only autodownloads on nexus. For loverslab a web browser is opened and we do see the actual mod page. But it does close right you click download and it uses it's own browser window so users won't even have the link in their history. I think this could change. Maybe instead of autoclosing after starting the download it could stay on the page and pop up a message asking the user to like the page? alternatively wabbajack could just end support for LL entirely and require users to go and manually download stuff so they actually have a presence here

 

I do sympathize with your feelings as a coder for mods in other games and someone who modded back when even taking donations seemed sketchy. Paid mods and the large amount of people making money off modding patreons and shallow YouTube promotion have destroyed the scene and nurtured this closed off competitive era. When everyone is walking on eggshells over permissions and such there's little room to collab outside of closeknit groups. It should all be give and take among modders while respecting each other's vision.

 

With that said though I understand your feelings, I do hope you'll reconsider. The strict rules around wabbajack prevent any continued sharing so a lot of users are disrupted right now. Would you consider allowing the 0.685 SE beta to be reuploaded for posterity as you continue to develop in solitude? That multiple curators would prefer not to have a modlist than to try getting individual mods as replacement should be a testament to the irreplaceable quality of your work. Perhaps an arrangement could be reached with the nefaram and masterstroke curators to host an approved version solely for their lists if you'd rather not have the mod floating around individually?

 

[tamai]

1 hour ago, Thurlam said:

don't see this as a selfish take so much as a realist/practical take.

 

I get where you're coming from now, I just don't personally advocate for people to post it and share it is all without his permission and regardless if those things will happen anyway.

Edited October 27, 2023 by tamai

[Karkhel]

Thank you for creating mods up until now, I hope you find your enjoyment in modding back or find different hobby (it's never too late for that), I will keep on using my installation of SL survival, but I still wish you kept it up in some form with a disclaimer that you won't troubleshoot it or something, because your mods were first recommendation that came to mind for variety of threads I encountered on this site, but I will respect your wishes. Whatever you end up doing I'm glad it's "just" this, not trying to diminish your experience just was worried it was a much worse life situation don't scare us man, good luck with whatever you decide to do.

[MalibuBattleBarbie]

 

 

It's the creators like MM1 who give us an alternative for a more dark and gritty experience in Skyrim. It's hard to put into words how much I appreciate that.  I'll try.  The combined talent here makes this game more fun to play than a lot of the AAA games out there today.

 

However, we're not entitled to their work. We're not entitled to try to cram a laundry-list of scope-creep at them. We're not entitled to their technical support for eternity because we downloaded some other mod that overwrote their assets and we're not entitled to an explanation when we run them ragged from doing the aforementioned.

 

As much as I was looking forward to that next release, I support his protest and any other mod creator who makes the same choice.  I'll cherish my copy.

 

I also confess that I feel a sense of schadenfreude for the "real pieces of work" who were sounding off like feckless prats, maybe they'll learn a little etiquette.

 

 

[Vigor]

It's important to note that we are mostly talking about Selax Survival mod. Nobody copied anything from other amazing Monoman's mods (Spank that Ass, Milk Addict, etc.), except for a few minor tweaks with 5 downloads. I always installed SLS for my playthroughs, but at some point I wanted to make one minor change to its logic and just couldn't compile it for hours because of so many dependencies, then I just gave up. But some people didn't give up and decided to make separate mods that are easier to work with to make desired changes, and these mods don't even cover 20% of what SLS provides, so I've never seen them as SLS competitors. If it's really the root of the problem, then I hope it can be solved without nuking all other Monoman's work which everybody appreciates and which definitely doesn't have any competition in the already small Sexlab modding community. I'm just glad to hear Monoman seems to still enjoy modding and it's all that matters at this point, because it give us hope

[ebbluminous]

13 hours ago, xcrunner15 said:

A detail you may not know of is that wabbajack cannot skip a mod so one item being down kills entire lists. I can understand your feelings about modlists but I have to disagree about their utility and influence. Making mods more accessible will only help the scene grow and even as a capable modder I mainly use wabbajack as I like the way curators build their lists around different themes and playstyles. List creation is itself an impressive feat of conflict resolution and the curators do it for free and continue to provide support for their community. The curators using your mod were promoting it while also making a buffer between you and a lot of users who would probably be spamming you for support otherwise.

 

Additionally since you haven't used wabbajack let me clarify that it only autodownloads on nexus. For loverslab a web browser is opened and we do see the actual mod page. But it does close right you click download and it uses it's own browser window so users won't even have the link in their history. I think this could change. Maybe instead of autoclosing after starting the download it could stay on the page and pop up a message asking the user to like the page? alternatively wabbajack could just end support for LL entirely and require users to go and manually download stuff so they actually have a presence here

 

I do sympathize with your feelings as a coder for mods in other games and someone who modded back when even taking donations seemed sketchy. Paid mods and the large amount of people making money off modding patreons and shallow YouTube promotion have destroyed the scene and nurtured this closed off competitive era. When everyone is walking on eggshells over permissions and such there's little room to collab outside of closeknit groups. It should all be give and take among modders while respecting each other's vision.

 

With that said though I understand your feelings, I do hope you'll reconsider. The strict rules around wabbajack prevent any continued sharing so a lot of users are disrupted right now. Would you consider allowing the 0.685 SE beta to be reuploaded for posterity as you continue to develop in solitude? That multiple curators would prefer not to have a modlist than to try getting individual mods as replacement should be a testament to the irreplaceable quality of your work. Perhaps an arrangement could be reached with the nefaram and masterstroke curators to host an approved version solely for their lists if you'd rather not have the mod floating around individually?

 

Wabbajack is a pita for modders as someone creates a list and then does not update that list as mods get updated. People then bug the modders for old version instead of bug wabbajack gut to update.

[Tlam99]

some of my mods have been stolen (webside in question banned here)

some of my mods appear in different modlists. As I expect some feedback, this is zero for those lists users.

all in all almost no feedback, what would really help to improve or fix the mods.

on the other side, the dark side, I have blocked all comments, because it became unbearable.

downloaders expects the modder works for them, no gratitude.

I started uploading, because I downloaded. Give something back. Be part of the community.

But there are so many "Just downloaders" which care a shit about community. Selfish, I have it, others don't bother me. But highlight the community for an

explanation of there comments.

 

All this gives me the feeling, I do some kind of slave work for others. No fun.

I won't nuke my stuff, but I think twice to upload new content or fixes.

 

I expect a gamer to spend a little effort to gather informaion.

Why explain the game comprehensive ?

A famous bug is the Serana Sneak bug. Mentioned in tons of posts. Type in google, one gets overwhelmed with links.

 

Well, I expected too much.

excert:

 

You shouldn't have to make a Google search to understand a Nexus description... When someone releases a "bug fix mod", the least they can do is give some clarification about the bug they're trying to fix, and how their mod is supposed to fix it. Otherwise their mod might just be bullshit, or simply not needed at all in one's playthrough, or incompatible with other mods

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Tlam99

[Leoosp]

2 hours ago, Tlam99 said:

some of my mods have been stolen (webside in question banned here)

some of my mods appear in different modlists. As I expect some feedback, this is zero for those lists users.

all in all almost no feedback, what would really help to improve or fix the mods.

on the other side, the dark side, I have blocked all comments, because it became unbearable.

downloaders expects the modder works for them, no gratitude.

I started uploading, because I downloaded. Give something back. Be part of the community.

But there are so many "Just downloaders" which care a shit about community. Selfish, I have it, others don't bother me. But highlight the community for an

explanation of there comments.

 

All this gives me the feeling, I do some kind of slave work for others. No fun.

I won't nuke my stuff, but I think twice to upload new content or fixes.

 

I expect a gamer to spend a little effort to gather informaion.

Why explain the game comprehensive ?

A famous bug is the Serana Sneak bug. Mentioned in tons of posts. Type in google, one gets overwhelmed with links.

 

Well, I expected too much.

excert:

 

You shouldn't have to make a Google search to understand a Nexus description... When someone releases a "bug fix mod", the least they can do is give some clarification about the bug they're trying to fix, and how their mod is supposed to fix it. Otherwise their mod might just be bullshit, or simply not needed at all in one's playthrough, or incompatible with other mods

 

 

It's a shame you were treated this way.

 

However even though the bug is famous and mentioned in lots of links from a search engine search, when making mods for Skyrim and other Bethesda games there's potential for conflicts, when altering already existing items. actors etc. Mentioning how the bug was fixed can aid in dealing with any potential issues on both sides, when the fix was developed Serana's records for instance could have been altered. Actors with altered records can then conflict with other modifications that alter the same records, so thus are potentially incompatible. On the other hand the bug fix, can have been implemented as Papyrus code or an SKSE dll plugin running as a new mod which carries out actions on Serana to fix the bug. This method has much less potential for incompatibility.

 

So do you see please that detailed information can aid both parties in handling and improving the modification? I don't expect you to do anything unless you want to, though you would benefit as feedback can then be more detailed due to extra info.

 

Though the change log helps thanks for all of the work on the mod and by the way the site where it's hosted has a section for changelogs just like Loverslab on its file page(s).

Edited October 28, 2023 by Leoosp

[DonQuiWho]

2 hours ago, Tlam99 said:

some of my mods have been stolen (webside in question banned here)

some of my mods appear in different modlists. As I expect some feedback, this is zero for those lists users.

all in all almost no feedback, what would really help to improve or fix the mods.

on the other side, the dark side, I have blocked all comments, because it became unbearable.

downloaders expects the modder works for them, no gratitude.

I started uploading, because I downloaded. Give something back. Be part of the community.

But there are so many "Just downloaders" which care a shit about community. Selfish, I have it, others don't bother me. But highlight the community for an

explanation of there comments.

 

All this gives me the feeling, I do some kind of slave work for others. No fun.

I won't nuke my stuff, but I think twice to upload new content or fixes.

 

I expect a gamer to spend a little effort to gather informaion.

Why explain the game comprehensive ?

A famous bug is the Serana Sneak bug. Mentioned in tons of posts. Type in google, one gets overwhelmed with links.

 

Well, I expected too much.

excert:

 

You shouldn't have to make a Google search to understand a Nexus description... When someone releases a "bug fix mod", the least they can do is give some clarification about the bug they're trying to fix, and how their mod is supposed to fix it. Otherwise their mod might just be bullshit, or simply not needed at all in one's playthrough, or incompatible with other mods

 

 

Thanks for that post and the points made.

 

That aside, as I checked your profile, despite playing this game for years, I had no idea until now that you had created all those mods and, having looked through them, whilst not all may be to my game style, there are a few that I will add to my next games - once I have rebuilt my MO2 installed mods folder which disappeared last week with 2 years of work and every game profile ?   That Tentacle Bow looks positively evil and I can't wait to try that!  ?

 

As an aside though, it's sometimes not too easy for those of us who aren't modders / techies to easily explain any issue that we think might be coming from any specific mods, so we will make, quite innocently, some wrong calls in our observations, and it's nice to see many modders have patience enough to help us out.  

 

There are a lot of assholes out there too, though, and you have my every sympathy in trying to deal with them   

 

DQW

[gamerpk2]

just wanna voice support since monoman1 seems to be still getting hate on the replies here

your mods made the game fun for me

thank you for your time and effort

as someone who modded before . for a much smaller game than skyrim mind you in terms of modding scene

yep the amount of self entitlement out there is horrible

- i dont like this . change it

- this is ugly ( saying that to an artist . yes it isnt the best i could do but i couldnt spend more time on it )

- this makes it incompatable with that can u fix it

- i even get people PMing me on twitter to ask me to make changes like " oh i know this is such a huge amount of work but i think it'll be fun and im sure if you asked on X forums ppl will help u "

- oh if you do this thing it'll get u more downloads and attention . as if i'd gain anything from it

like bro im giving this thing to you for free . why are you treating me like my boss at work ?

its a free mod : like it ? use it .. dont like it ? dont use it .

 

for mods as big as yours . i cant even imagine how much more of these u having to deal with

 

which makes me think i shouldnt bother uploading my mods . i make them for myself and thats it

but its when i enjoy mods like yours i think maybe i should publish mine

whinny ppl aside maybe someone out there will have fun with it

so thank you again for sharing you mods with us

[Dreamer1986]

On 10/26/2023 at 2:02 PM, Monoman1 said:

Right. First off. Not having a mental breakdown or anything so dramatic. Not having 'a fit'. Been removing files over a couple of weeks now. I've been asking nicely. Not been asking admins to do anything. Mostly via PM. Some people's inboxes are full.

 

It has been... interesting to see the reactions. Some people get it. Others are annoyed that they've been inconvenienced.

 

 

And I'm sorry but when you've contributed a fraction of what I have then you'll have an opinion that I'd actually consider. It's been a bit of an eye-opener. There's some real 'pieces of work' on this site. Some genuinely nice people too. 

 

- Dependencies - I'm not aware of any mods that have a hard dependency on any of my mods. Soft dependency, sure. You simply lose access to this content. 

- I got paid for these mods. Ah... No. I've never paywalled files or badgered people about it. The only reason I even had a patreon account was because I was asked about it. And I'm grateful to anyone that helped me out but if I were getting paid by the hour it'd be .0x cents per hour. In any case, I didn't mod to get paid. 

 

Now, I can't point to any one thing that's lead me to this but there are a number of factors as I see it: 

 

1. I've a strange OCD where I feel compelled to support the stuff I've created. I find it very difficult to 'disconnect'. It's my responsibility. 7000 posts, mostly support. It's exhausting on it's own. Combine this with trouble sleeping and it leads to late nights reading/refreshing threads. Unhealthy. Perhaps if there wasn't any file then maybe I could disconnect?

 

2. Someone mentioned modpacks. Yea, maybe a factor. Not a big one though. Handy of course for users but I think possibly damaging for long term for modding in general. Positive reinforcement/engagement is definitely down around here since it's advent. And it's not like us modders get much else for our work. I think SLS beta had ~83000 downloads. 53 'endorsements'. Nearly 1600 DLs per endorsement. Obviously a lot of auto downloading going on. The only people showing up in threads are people with problems. Problems that either A) are well known or B) are completely off the mark due to the users complete lack of knowledge. I'd also point out that a necessity to be knowledgeable about mods is what lead me to modding in the first place. Less knowledgeable people around would probably indicate less modders and less mods going forward. 

 

3. Attitudes such as: 

May not be intended but from my POV there's a serious bang of entitlement and ungratefulness about this post. Maybe you wouldn't have these alternatives if I hadn't put in the initial effort so... you're welcome I guess? I don't know why you felt to need to say this. And to say it in this thread...

 

4. People shitting all over 'old' mods when 'newer' ones come out utterly baffles me. I've got news for people out there. Papyrus hasn't improved since Skyrim's release. Sure SE has a couple of extra (not particularly useful) functions but if you want compatibility (which most modders do) then you're stuck with basic papyrus. PO3 extender and the like - very useful. Not game changing. My point? - The 'best' mod for something may have been made years ago. Even if this was not the case they likely served as a foundation for your newer and better mod. So... show a little respect?

 

5. Large mods bad. Small mods good! - Yea... Sometimes. There are efficiencies to be gained in larger mods. If you were to chop up SLS and reinstall a lot of it in parts then I'd say you are actually making things worse. Now instead of one mod tracking your cell changes you've got multiple. Congratulations, you've double/tripled the background workload (which is usually the 'heaviest' work). And if anyone doesn't know how cell change tracking works, it involves adding a permanent magic effect to the player and an invisible object following you around forever. Imagine all that invisible junk following you around. Entering/exiting combat - same sort of thing. Load game events - probably a whole lot of duplication going on. 

 

6. Scripters are not well regarded in the Skyrim community. At least not as well as modelers/animators. Can't really do much of interest with a model/animation without some good situations to provide context. Situations provided by a quest/script. A model/animation can be finished. Script mods require constant updates/maintenance/support. I don't really understand it. Maybe because scripts = bad is the general perception? I don't know. Maybe my perception is off. 

 

7. Probably the biggest. I'm feeling the walls close in on me lately (modding wise). Pretty much all of my mods have some equivalent or equivalent parts now. Sure, my mods haven't been updated in some time but I was actively working on them. Anyone paying attention to the threads would know this. It's just difficult when you're spinning 3/4 plates at the same time, including 1 complete rewrite. They don't intend it but I feel like I'm 'under siege', for want of a better expression, by these modders. And since they are many and I am one, they are capable of doing things much faster than I. I'm being 'pushed out'.

 

So this is the crux. Modding has become a competition and is not a fun hobby anymore. If I am to 'compete' then I'd have to give up my day job which obviously isn't an option. And if my mods or new features are to be chopped up and rehashed anyway then I really don't see the point in continuing. Or at least... continuing publicly. It's possible at this point that I would continue modding since I still have an interest in playing Skyrim and many of the things I've been working on are practically finished or close to it anyway. But then I would be modding for personal use only. That may seem selfish on the surface. And it is. But not for the reasons you're probably thinking. 

 

Taking modding back to being a personal thing makes modding a hobby again. No competition. No watching my mods be very publicly dissected. No endless hours of support. No adding options I'm not particularly interested in. Less compatibility issues. No aggro. No chasing people for permissions to use meshes etc. Sounds great...

 

A lot of the problems above are from the community itself. Something to ponder...

 

Just to reiterate, all this isn't against any one modder in particular. 

 

Taking down my files was a silent protest of the above cumulative points. This community needs to work on :

• Respect - Respect modders work. Even if you don't like it. It took time and effort and should not be shat on by anyone. Unless it's deliberately setting PCs on fire. 
• Gratitude - Don't want to write a review or post a positive comment? Then just click the like button. Take you one second. Otherwise the vitriol of this place will drown out the positive feedback and modding will suffer. 
• Understanding - Develop understanding of how mods work so that you're not a part of the scripts = bad sheeple. And therefore not disrespecting modders with your lack of understanding. If you don't know something then don't state it as fact...
• Self help - respect mod authors free time. Try to figure it out yourself. See how much time modding takes (above). Maybe you'll learn something along the way and save a modder a headache. 
• Collaboration - Maybe instead of forking off a mod, submit changes that can be implemented. Stuff is beginning to be splintered all over the place. 

 

tldr:

So what now? 

 

Got to admit, I've made a bit of a mess of things. Should have just hidden files rather than delete them. Probably will reupload them somewhere, sometime. But possibly just to a locked blog post or something. Public development is likely to stop. Permission to carry on my work is not given. Yet. Need to figure out some things. 

Thank you for your work, Monoman1!

 

I don't usually post, but I did appreciate your mods, and I'm sorry that I can't see them completed, like A Daughter's Tale, which I played a year or two ago, and was excited to see the new additions that were talked about in the thread. I was reading about what was coming, and it sounded like a lot of fun, and then this happened. I'm sad, I hope you find a way to reupload while not feeling too much pressure, maybe with locked threads or something, if that makes you feel more comfortable, but still letting us fans enjoy your work in silence. A lot of people enjoy your mods, that's why they download them, even if they don't come out so often to say it. And I think the Like button could be made more visible or something, I don't often press it, because it didn't seem like it matters much, even though I really like the mods. 

 

Wishing you all the best!

[Seeker999]

40 minutes ago, Dreamer1986 said:

And I think the Like button could be made more visible or something

Agree. A good place would be, imo, next to the option to 'get version updates' toggle - something like this:

[HexBolt8]

58 minutes ago, Seeker999 said:

A good place would be, imo, next to the option to 'get version updates' toggle - something like this:

It would be worth repeating this suggestion on the Site Feedback topic for a better chance that it might get implemented in some form.

[Seeker999]

you're right, done.

[OlBenny]

Big love to you Monoman!  I for one am extremely grateful for all that you have done for this community: The mods you created were sheer genius, triumphs in art, and had found a permanent place in my load order; and I know I've come here to the forums with a question, or two, or three and you were always so very prompt and helpful in replying.  Again, a big THANK YOU.  Personally, I respect your decision in both taking down your mods and taking a modding hiatus.  I hope, admittedly selfishly so, that you will return, along with your mods. 

Please know that you do have a whole community behind you that supports you and cares for you.  I can understand where you are coming from in feeling otherwise, having released several mods myself -- although on Steam and for a game called HoI4 -- where I have 3536 users, as of today, and yet only 143 up-votes between them,  288 favorites, and pretty much a dead forum on both mods, although they're both active and supported and I post regularly.  As such, I find it difficult at times to continue my work there, at least publically, and have considered just taking them down and enjoying them myself.  But, if I do so, personally I would feel like I'd be letting down those 3500+ users as they really have literally nowhere else to go to obtain the content that my mods provide.  And that's what keeps me going.

 

The point that I'm trying to make, the lack of support is not endemic to just LoversLab, it's not just you or your mods.  We all are seeing it, at least those of us who are paying attention.  I would even go as far as to say what you are observing is a product of something, well, let's just say, larger as in... macro-scale, culture as a whole:  entitlement, to name it plainly. 

Anyhow, I hope this helps you in some small way.  Again, big love and I can't say it enough:  I for one, amongst those who have posted similarly, appreciate you and all that you have down for LoversLab and the Skyrim modding community at large.  Cheers to you!  ❤️?❤️?❤️?

[Dovahre]

Thanks for your work. Generally I tend to not post things, and if I have issues I do some thorough research on my own. I have learned enough to know that modding takes a LOT of time and effort (if my efforts to make SKyrim LE that I currently play, stable enough to be playable is any indication) to create content. Reading the above, I did recognise a lot of the issues you mentioned, at first I was very skeptical about using your mod, exaclty because I thought there was a good likelihood I would get Fus Roh dahed out of the game in some way or another. I was wrong! I got addicted to it, and loved it, it redefined gameplay for me, and made it lots of fun. So many options! And your guides and instructions so very helpful! Such dedication and love! Perhaps I should have written sooner, but I am generally not very social, so well, I hope even now it counts for something. The only thing I never got around was using DD, but welp I was never big on BDSM anyways, still it was VERY fun exploring your mod, it gave me perspective, and helped me grow a better understanding of how things worked, as well as what the limitations of my PC were (i did try to add camping & survival & RND, even Apropos and SLSO, along with a bunch of other mods to fully explore everything in your mod! It was like the glue that held everything together and made it one unique experience). Well, by the end i realized that I had to go much lighter! hehe But it doesn't matter. You are a genius, and very dedicating and diligent person, I am sad you had to remove everything, i was looking forward to the next update, but I get it. Lastly, even though I am quite certain others have mentioned this already, Lover'sLab is much pooer now, and your contribution simply priceless. Not everything needs to be competition, keep having fun, and I really hope that one you make your epic comeback. Stay strong! 

[Gergar12]

On 10/26/2023 at 7:02 AM, Monoman1 said:

Right. First off. Not having a mental breakdown or anything so dramatic. Not having 'a fit'. Been removing files over a couple of weeks now. I've been asking nicely. Not been asking admins to do anything. Mostly via PM. Some people's inboxes are full.

 

It has been... interesting to see the reactions. Some people get it. Others are annoyed that they've been inconvenienced.

 

 

And I'm sorry but when you've contributed a fraction of what I have then you'll have an opinion that I'd actually consider. It's been a bit of an eye-opener. There's some real 'pieces of work' on this site. Some genuinely nice people too. 

 

- Dependencies - I'm not aware of any mods that have a hard dependency on any of my mods. Soft dependency, sure. You simply lose access to this content. 

- I got paid for these mods. Ah... No. I've never paywalled files or badgered people about it. The only reason I even had a patreon account was because I was asked about it. And I'm grateful to anyone that helped me out but if I were getting paid by the hour it'd be .0x cents per hour. In any case, I didn't mod to get paid. 

 

Now, I can't point to any one thing that's lead me to this but there are a number of factors as I see it: 

 

1. I've a strange OCD where I feel compelled to support the stuff I've created. I find it very difficult to 'disconnect'. It's my responsibility. 7000 posts, mostly support. It's exhausting on it's own. Combine this with trouble sleeping and it leads to late nights reading/refreshing threads. Unhealthy. Perhaps if there wasn't any file then maybe I could disconnect?

 

2. Someone mentioned modpacks. Yea, maybe a factor. Not a big one though. Handy of course for users but I think possibly damaging for long term for modding in general. Positive reinforcement/engagement is definitely down around here since it's advent. And it's not like us modders get much else for our work. I think SLS beta had ~83000 downloads. 53 'endorsements'. Nearly 1600 DLs per endorsement. Obviously a lot of auto downloading going on. The only people showing up in threads are people with problems. Problems that either A) are well known or B) are completely off the mark due to the users complete lack of knowledge. I'd also point out that a necessity to be knowledgeable about mods is what lead me to modding in the first place. Less knowledgeable people around would probably indicate less modders and less mods going forward. 

 

3. Attitudes such as: 

May not be intended but from my POV there's a serious bang of entitlement and ungratefulness about this post. Maybe you wouldn't have these alternatives if I hadn't put in the initial effort so... you're welcome I guess? I don't know why you felt to need to say this. And to say it in this thread...

 

4. People shitting all over 'old' mods when 'newer' ones come out utterly baffles me. I've got news for people out there. Papyrus hasn't improved since Skyrim's release. Sure SE has a couple of extra (not particularly useful) functions but if you want compatibility (which most modders do) then you're stuck with basic papyrus. PO3 extender and the like - very useful. Not game changing. My point? - The 'best' mod for something may have been made years ago. Even if this was not the case they likely served as a foundation for your newer and better mod. So... show a little respect?

 

5. Large mods bad. Small mods good! - Yea... Sometimes. There are efficiencies to be gained in larger mods. If you were to chop up SLS and reinstall a lot of it in parts then I'd say you are actually making things worse. Now instead of one mod tracking your cell changes you've got multiple. Congratulations, you've double/tripled the background workload (which is usually the 'heaviest' work). And if anyone doesn't know how cell change tracking works, it involves adding a permanent magic effect to the player and an invisible object following you around forever. Imagine all that invisible junk following you around. Entering/exiting combat - same sort of thing. Load game events - probably a whole lot of duplication going on. 

 

6. Scripters are not well regarded in the Skyrim community. At least not as well as modelers/animators. Can't really do much of interest with a model/animation without some good situations to provide context. Situations provided by a quest/script. A model/animation can be finished. Script mods require constant updates/maintenance/support. I don't really understand it. Maybe because scripts = bad is the general perception? I don't know. Maybe my perception is off. 

 

7. Probably the biggest. I'm feeling the walls close in on me lately (modding wise). Pretty much all of my mods have some equivalent or equivalent parts now. Sure, my mods haven't been updated in some time but I was actively working on them. Anyone paying attention to the threads would know this. It's just difficult when you're spinning 3/4 plates at the same time, including 1 complete rewrite. They don't intend it but I feel like I'm 'under siege', for want of a better expression, by these modders. And since they are many and I am one, they are capable of doing things much faster than I. I'm being 'pushed out'.

 

So this is the crux. Modding has become a competition and is not a fun hobby anymore. If I am to 'compete' then I'd have to give up my day job which obviously isn't an option. And if my mods or new features are to be chopped up and rehashed anyway then I really don't see the point in continuing. Or at least... continuing publicly. It's possible at this point that I would continue modding since I still have an interest in playing Skyrim and many of the things I've been working on are practically finished or close to it anyway. But then I would be modding for personal use only. That may seem selfish on the surface. And it is. But not for the reasons you're probably thinking. 

 

Taking modding back to being a personal thing makes modding a hobby again. No competition. No watching my mods be very publicly dissected. No endless hours of support. No adding options I'm not particularly interested in. Less compatibility issues. No aggro. No chasing people for permissions to use meshes etc. Sounds great...

 

A lot of the problems above are from the community itself. Something to ponder...

 

Just to reiterate, all this isn't against any one modder in particular. 

 

Taking down my files was a silent protest of the above cumulative points. This community needs to work on :

• Respect - Respect modders work. Even if you don't like it. It took time and effort and should not be shat on by anyone. Unless it's deliberately setting PCs on fire. 
• Gratitude - Don't want to write a review or post a positive comment? Then just click the like button. Take you one second. Otherwise the vitriol of this place will drown out the positive feedback and modding will suffer. 
• Understanding - Develop understanding of how mods work so that you're not a part of the scripts = bad sheeple. And therefore not disrespecting modders with your lack of understanding. If you don't know something then don't state it as fact...
• Self help - respect mod authors free time. Try to figure it out yourself. See how much time modding takes (above). Maybe you'll learn something along the way and save a modder a headache. 
• Collaboration - Maybe instead of forking off a mod, submit changes that can be implemented. Stuff is beginning to be splintered all over the place. 

 

tldr:

So what now? 

 

Got to admit, I've made a bit of a mess of things. Should have just hidden files rather than delete them. Probably will reupload them somewhere, sometime. But possibly just to a locked blog post or something. Public development is likely to stop. Permission to carry on my work is not given. Yet. Need to figure out some things. 

We will miss you Monoman1. SLS was epic when it first came out. As someone who has downloaded your mod in a custom list I am still using, and in NEFRAM I am sorry you felt that way. Whenever I have a problem with a mod in a Modlist I check the Modlist Discord. Also, I am sorry I didn't endorse. I know it's your passion, and I didn't realize I should have done it. 

[Naps-On-Dirt]

Been away from Skyrim for a few weeks because of Starfield and CP2077's Phantom Liberty DLC, just got caught up on what went down here.  I've been a longtime user of SLS and STA and a couple of his tweaks.  Wanted to add my (belated) thanks and best wishes to Monoman1.  We'll miss you dude.

[Silvain]

On 10/26/2023 at 1:02 PM, Monoman1 said:

Right. First off. Not having a mental breakdown or anything so dramatic.

 

Very glad to hear that. And I say it again. Thank you for everything. Skyrim was much more fun with your mods. And - even if it was just for the conversions - it was a pleasure to work with you. I learned a lot and I was always grateful for your patience. 

 

Thanks again. 

 

 

[VeraDra]

On 10/26/2023 at 6:02 AM, Monoman1 said:

7. Probably the biggest. I'm feeling the walls close in on me lately (modding wise). Pretty much all of my mods have some equivalent or equivalent parts now. Sure, my mods haven't been updated in some time but I was actively working on them. Anyone paying attention to the threads would know this. It's just difficult when you're spinning 3/4 plates at the same time, including 1 complete rewrite. They don't intend it but I feel like I'm 'under siege', for want of a better expression, by these modders. And since they are many and I am one, they are capable of doing things much faster than I. I'm being 'pushed out'.

 

So this is the crux. Modding has become a competition and is not a fun hobby anymore. If I am to 'compete' then I'd have to give up my day job which obviously isn't an option. And if my mods or new features are to be chopped up and rehashed anyway then I really don't see the point in continuing. Or at least... continuing publicly. It's possible at this point that I would continue modding since I still have an interest in playing Skyrim and many of the things I've been working on are practically finished or close to it anyway. But then I would be modding for personal use only. That may seem selfish on the surface. And it is. But not for the reasons you're probably thinking. 

 

Taking modding back to being a personal thing makes modding a hobby again. No competition. No watching my mods be very publicly dissected. No endless hours of support. No adding options I'm not particularly interested in. Less compatibility issues. No aggro. No chasing people for permissions to use meshes etc. Sounds great...

 

I mean this in the politest way I can: times change.

 

With modding tools, guides, tutorials, you name it, becoming common, it's no longer good enough to be the first person to the plate with an idea. Back in ye olden days of the mid 00's and early 10's, being able to make mods at all was already a feat. Sure, people could always get ahold of the Creation Kit and mess around with it in Morrowind or Oblivion, or even early Skyrim, but very few mods did much more than make minor tweaks to existing assets, or add in some objects of their own, sometimes they would even ship the models and textures! Scripting at best was uncommon, and usually pretty basic. Very, VERY, rarely did mods use .dlls, and usually when they did, it was because something just was literally impossible in Papyrus. Obviously, some of this would change as time went on - mods created in the months after the CK was released are a lot more basic than mods released years later).

 

Unfortunately, time moves forwards - people get more familiar with how to make mods, how Papyrus works, and then later, tools like PO3PE come along and extend what is already possible. Not to mention that using .dlls became more commonplace. More complicated than making a papyrus script, but with that tradeoff you get significantly better performance, flexibility, and control. This is currently a big drive you may see in the community - taking old, long-standing mods that have been around since the days of LE being the standard, and, if it presented any upsides, either updating them to make use of newer frameworks, or just outright remaking them with the hindsight of what mistakes were made over the years.

 

A lot of this is just what happens when a community goes a decade+ without a new, proper game in the series. You're going to run into the fresh faces with a lot of time on thier hands slowly pushing out the "old guard" so to speak - the people who have been modding the game since its launch (or very close to), who have other things to do, like pay taxes or whatever. The changeover usually happens when a new game is released. The "old guard" barely has time to maintain their existing mods, and no interest in learning what's changed with the new platform. In the case of TES however, we've gone a decade+ with no new game and only whispers of the next one, saying it's years away yet.

 

Also to add: if you really want to have something to point at to say "I'm working on it" - github, and ideally have all the source code available there. If people want to know if something is happening, it's pretty easy to go look at github and see thay the last commit was 3 hours ago, and it mentions fixing an issue with the issue number. This also addresses your point about "Collaboration" - as it stands, uploading a .psc/.pex file to the forums to have people try a fix is an utterly dogshit way of doing it, and just leads to fragmentation. The refusal for (some) mod authors to consider both a) open-sourcing their mods (in any meaningful way), and b) actively allowing collaboration (many mods either explicitly demand you ask for permission or outright deny it), is how you end up wtih the patch to get ModA and ModB to work together when ModC is also used, behind 3 different links to a random ass forum post where someone posted it.

 

 

FTR: I don't intend to come off as overly critical with this, mind you - just how I, someone who's mostly a lurker, sees things, and who got mildly inconvenienced to find out some of the mods I used got nuked off the face of the earth, so had to do so much work by creating a .7z file of the version in my mods folder.

[Tlam99]

seems some people have a restricted view onto the things.

They see everything whats on the table. Eat it, cook it new, add new flavors. All they need.

But they don't realise, there might be a new meal in the oven they never will be able to taste.

[bathoz]

I absolutely agree. Leave the folk be. They'll get to what they want to do when they want. Hopefully, that'll mean in a better place mentally, but you never know. If they do return, I hope take some lead from how other modders manage their things to reduce the level of strain on them. Yes, updating a mod page might feel fairly obvious, but there often a reason for that. Similarly having short FAQs and the like.

 

All to save you work and stress.

 

I've greatly enjoyed Monoman's work. And would much prefer they return and continue to develop. But if they don't... that's fine too.

[NotRGBJackal]

On 10/26/2023 at 6:02 AM, Monoman1 said:

Right. First off. Not having a mental breakdown or anything so dramatic. Not having 'a fit'. Been removing files over a couple of weeks now. I've been asking nicely. Not been asking admins to do anything. Mostly via PM. Some people's inboxes are full.

 

It has been... interesting to see the reactions. Some people get it. Others are annoyed that they've been inconvenienced.

 

 

And I'm sorry but when you've contributed a fraction of what I have then you'll have an opinion that I'd actually consider. It's been a bit of an eye-opener. There's some real 'pieces of work' on this site. Some genuinely nice people too. 

 

- Dependencies - I'm not aware of any mods that have a hard dependency on any of my mods. Soft dependency, sure. You simply lose access to this content. 

- I got paid for these mods. Ah... No. I've never paywalled files or badgered people about it. The only reason I even had a patreon account was because I was asked about it. And I'm grateful to anyone that helped me out but if I were getting paid by the hour it'd be .0x cents per hour. In any case, I didn't mod to get paid. 

 

Now, I can't point to any one thing that's lead me to this but there are a number of factors as I see it: 

 

1. I've a strange OCD where I feel compelled to support the stuff I've created. I find it very difficult to 'disconnect'. It's my responsibility. 7000 posts, mostly support. It's exhausting on it's own. Combine this with trouble sleeping and it leads to late nights reading/refreshing threads. Unhealthy. Perhaps if there wasn't any file then maybe I could disconnect?

 

2. Someone mentioned modpacks. Yea, maybe a factor. Not a big one though. Handy of course for users but I think possibly damaging for long term for modding in general. Positive reinforcement/engagement is definitely down around here since it's advent. And it's not like us modders get much else for our work. I think SLS beta had ~83000 downloads. 53 'endorsements'. Nearly 1600 DLs per endorsement. Obviously a lot of auto downloading going on. The only people showing up in threads are people with problems. Problems that either A) are well known or B) are completely off the mark due to the users complete lack of knowledge. I'd also point out that a necessity to be knowledgeable about mods is what lead me to modding in the first place. Less knowledgeable people around would probably indicate less modders and less mods going forward. 

 

3. Attitudes such as: 

May not be intended but from my POV there's a serious bang of entitlement and ungratefulness about this post. Maybe you wouldn't have these alternatives if I hadn't put in the initial effort so... you're welcome I guess? I don't know why you felt to need to say this. And to say it in this thread...

 

4. People shitting all over 'old' mods when 'newer' ones come out utterly baffles me. I've got news for people out there. Papyrus hasn't improved since Skyrim's release. Sure SE has a couple of extra (not particularly useful) functions but if you want compatibility (which most modders do) then you're stuck with basic papyrus. PO3 extender and the like - very useful. Not game changing. My point? - The 'best' mod for something may have been made years ago. Even if this was not the case they likely served as a foundation for your newer and better mod. So... show a little respect?

 

5. Large mods bad. Small mods good! - Yea... Sometimes. There are efficiencies to be gained in larger mods. If you were to chop up SLS and reinstall a lot of it in parts then I'd say you are actually making things worse. Now instead of one mod tracking your cell changes you've got multiple. Congratulations, you've double/tripled the background workload (which is usually the 'heaviest' work). And if anyone doesn't know how cell change tracking works, it involves adding a permanent magic effect to the player and an invisible object following you around forever. Imagine all that invisible junk following you around. Entering/exiting combat - same sort of thing. Load game events - probably a whole lot of duplication going on. 

 

6. Scripters are not well regarded in the Skyrim community. At least not as well as modelers/animators. Can't really do much of interest with a model/animation without some good situations to provide context. Situations provided by a quest/script. A model/animation can be finished. Script mods require constant updates/maintenance/support. I don't really understand it. Maybe because scripts = bad is the general perception? I don't know. Maybe my perception is off. 

 

7. Probably the biggest. I'm feeling the walls close in on me lately (modding wise). Pretty much all of my mods have some equivalent or equivalent parts now. Sure, my mods haven't been updated in some time but I was actively working on them. Anyone paying attention to the threads would know this. It's just difficult when you're spinning 3/4 plates at the same time, including 1 complete rewrite. They don't intend it but I feel like I'm 'under siege', for want of a better expression, by these modders. And since they are many and I am one, they are capable of doing things much faster than I. I'm being 'pushed out'.

 

So this is the crux. Modding has become a competition and is not a fun hobby anymore. If I am to 'compete' then I'd have to give up my day job which obviously isn't an option. And if my mods or new features are to be chopped up and rehashed anyway then I really don't see the point in continuing. Or at least... continuing publicly. It's possible at this point that I would continue modding since I still have an interest in playing Skyrim and many of the things I've been working on are practically finished or close to it anyway. But then I would be modding for personal use only. That may seem selfish on the surface. And it is. But not for the reasons you're probably thinking. 

 

Taking modding back to being a personal thing makes modding a hobby again. No competition. No watching my mods be very publicly dissected. No endless hours of support. No adding options I'm not particularly interested in. Less compatibility issues. No aggro. No chasing people for permissions to use meshes etc. Sounds great...

 

A lot of the problems above are from the community itself. Something to ponder...

 

Just to reiterate, all this isn't against any one modder in particular. 

 

Taking down my files was a silent protest of the above cumulative points. This community needs to work on :

• Respect - Respect modders work. Even if you don't like it. It took time and effort and should not be shat on by anyone. Unless it's deliberately setting PCs on fire. 
• Gratitude - Don't want to write a review or post a positive comment? Then just click the like button. Take you one second. Otherwise the vitriol of this place will drown out the positive feedback and modding will suffer. 
• Understanding - Develop understanding of how mods work so that you're not a part of the scripts = bad sheeple. And therefore not disrespecting modders with your lack of understanding. If you don't know something then don't state it as fact...
• Self help - respect mod authors free time. Try to figure it out yourself. See how much time modding takes (above). Maybe you'll learn something along the way and save a modder a headache. 
• Collaboration - Maybe instead of forking off a mod, submit changes that can be implemented. Stuff is beginning to be splintered all over the place. 

 

tldr:

So what now? 

 

Got to admit, I've made a bit of a mess of things. Should have just hidden files rather than delete them. Probably will reupload them somewhere, sometime. But possibly just to a locked blog post or something. Public development is likely to stop. Permission to carry on my work is not given. Yet. Need to figure out some things. 

 

God bless you for all the work you've put in. Keep yourself safe, keep yourself happy, and goodbye, you absolute legend. Thanks for the hours of content. Take a break, you earned it.

[Vaccinated Alligator]

 

On 10/26/2023 at 8:02 AM, Monoman1 said:

Got to admit, I've made a bit of a mess of things. Should have just hidden files rather than delete them. Probably will reupload them somewhere, sometime. But possibly just to a locked blog post or something. Public development is likely to stop. Permission to carry on my work is not given. Yet. Need to figure out some things. 

 

SLS is a staple in my setup, i started a new save shortly before the mod files were dropped. I guess everyone that use(d) your mods will miss them and the patience you had (at least until now) to support them.

Regarding the continuity of your work by other users, remember that pchs started the mod Wartimes, then after he stopped development, you engaged in it at some point. I've never used Wartimes, though. Devious Followers has also been started by Lozeak, then continued by Lupine00 (now inactive), and now seems another author is starting to work in a(nother) continuation (i don't recall who is atm).

Those are just two examples of mods that started with one author and ended with other(s). There's plenty more here in LL. Nevertheless, you have every right to take your time and decide if someone else can continue the development of (any of) your mods, and the decision should be entirely yours.