Devious Devices Framework Development/Beta

Nazzzgul666 · December 14, 2017

22 hours ago, darkevilhum said:

Yeah I did (7.0), I didn't know you could save the FNIS output, I'll look into that but it did work at the time (no warnings, all behaviours generated), and as I got it working as mentioned by installing DD manually instead of via MO, I've moved onto reinstalling my other mods (in the middle of doing so) which has left my FNIS broken until I install the right animations and behaviours for these new mods

Not really sure about that, my own latest FNIS problem was that i forgot to delete the FNIS output after uninstalling a lot of animations and upgrading FNIS... Usually they just get more and more and the old stuff is all overwritten, so never deleting the output before never caused any problems for me. Most likely it's just because of the uninstalled animations, but there is a chance FNIS 7 changed something in the output that was kept from 6.3 too.

SkyAddiction · December 15, 2017

Suggestion: Change the way bondage mittens work.

I realize it's likely well past the point where this is something that can be included in the 4.0 release, but I have an idea.

Currently, mittens are my Most Hated Device. Why? They're consistently repetitive and rarely worth keeping past console removal for their crippling effects. As is, they not only prevent combat, but they require the player to repeatedly juggle keys to even try to remove them. Pick up, pick up, pick up, pick up, pick up, pick up, pick up... Use key... drop key... pick up, pick up, pick up, pick up, pick up... key gone.

Here's an idea: Provide a false struggle attempt. The results could be text-only and look something like this:
1. Key acquisition.

a. "You carefully position your pack and push the key into your pack with your feet." (success)
b. "Try as you might, you fail to push the key into your pack. You struggle for an indeterminate period to retain the key, finally getting it to rest on the flap of your pack. You're frustrated and a little tired. Maybe you should wait until you have a clearer head to attempt to use it?" (1-2 hour cool-down before attempting to unlock devices.)

2. Device Unlock.

a. "You carefully insert the key and unlock the mittens. That was far less difficult that you thought it would be!" (success 'roll')

b. "You attempt to insert the key for many minutes. Your failure is frustrating, and you're too disheartened to try again for a bit. In addition, you lose your key!" (struggle fail, PC locked out of all removal/struggle attempts for 1-2 hours, key removed.)

c. "You carefully attempt to unlock the mittens, and you eventually succeed. You smile, knowing how difficult this particular feat is, but you're frustrated and on the verge of striking something due to the accumulated frustration." (mittens unlocked, other devices locked for removal for 1-2 hours.)

I think that provides sufficient example for a better game-play means of dealing with mittens. Use it as you will... or not.

*Gameplayer* · December 15, 2017

Or just remove Mittens.

*Princessity* · December 15, 2017

You can turn the item-dropping thing off in MCM (hardcore mittens). I'm not a fan of this mechanic myself and it's definitely not for everyone which why we have the option.

We're planning to do an expansion of bound mechanics (including mittens) in 4.1 so hopefully we can come up with something to make wearing them a bit more interesting and not all-around crippling. On a side note, yes, I do find it a bit silly that mittens are currently more severe than armbinders. That's one of several little balance issues I'm hoping to address when we get around to that expansion.

But realistically speaking, you shouldn't end up wearing mittens outside of specific, self-contained and tightly controlled scenarios. Same with hobble dresses, hard gags and other gameplay-disrupting devices. If any third party mods are throwing them around like candy and giving you no reliable way to get out, you should probably bring it up with their authors, not us n_n

JuliusXX · December 15, 2017

How about armed mittens with spikes :cool:

Anooon · December 15, 2017

Maybe just let people cast spells while wearing mittens, maybe with a penalty for not being able to make the full gestures? I think there's already mods that do that, and it seems like a nice way to make them less punishing than armbinders or yokes.

*Princessity* · December 15, 2017

We're planning to enable spellcasting for all heavy restraints, and maybe even wield weapons in some cases (such as with front-facing cuffs). But some will make it harder than others. Mittens will probably convey only a light penalty.

But that's scheduled for 4.1. We're not making any more changes to 4.0 because we don't want to introduce any potential instability right before release.

worik · December 15, 2017

35 minutes ago, JuliusXX said:

How about armed mittens with spikes

... counting additionally as [insert_material_here]-gauntlets with a crippling magic effect .... :clown:

Seriously, I think the mittens are currently in a technical good state, but game-balance and story-telling is still lacking substance.

That's not a problem if I go for the appealing view of them. But if they are called as a random device by a 3rd party mod, they don't fit into the family, ... yet.

Aside from my testing game, I guess I will probably disable them in my main game. (to be started after DD4 release :cool: )

Anooon · December 15, 2017

1 hour ago, Princessity said:

We're planning to enable spellcasting for all heavy restraints, and maybe even wield weapons in some cases (such as with front-facing cuffs). But some will make it harder than others. Mittens will probably convey only a light penalty.

Woah. That's great news. Finally being hit with an armbinder or yoke in a dungeon means I won't have to backtrack to town to get freed anymore.

*Gameplayer* · December 15, 2017

4 hours ago, Princessity said:

You can turn the item-dropping thing off in MCM (hardcore mittens). I'm not a fan of this mechanic myself and it's definitely not for everyone which why we have the option.

We're planning to do an expansion of bound mechanics (including mittens) in 4.1 so hopefully we can come up with something to make wearing them a bit more interesting and not all-around crippling. On a side note, yes, I do find it a bit silly that mittens are currently more severe than armbinders. That's one of several little balance issues I'm hoping to address when we get around to that expansion.

But realistically speaking, you shouldn't end up wearing mittens outside of specific, self-contained and tightly controlled scenarios. Same with hobble dresses, hard gags and other gameplay-disrupting devices. If any third party mods are throwing them around like candy and giving you no reliable way to get out, you should probably bring it up with their authors, not us n_n

Hey Kimy, Princess said I should bring up your love of mittens!

Stop sob....Stop the mittens!

Dust+ · December 15, 2017

2 hours ago, Princessity said:

We're planning to enable spellcasting for all heavy restraints, and maybe even wield weapons in some cases (such as with front-facing cuffs). But some will make it harder than others. Mittens will probably convey only a light penalty.

But that's scheduled for 4.1. We're not making any more changes to 4.0 because we don't want to introduce any potential instability right before release.

Do you sure for this idea?

It's only my opinion, but I think fight impossibility with heavy restraints make your game expirience more realistic and exciting. You become helpless while your hands tied like in real life but also you have a small chance to push back with your legs if they not bound too. And this situation generates many interesting stories if you have right mods. For example, when your hands tied, you can be sold by Devious Enslaved Continued mod.

Also you can't kill your master in SD+ mod and many many other situations witch makes your game expirience more realistic.

I repeat: this is only my opinion and you know what you must to do better than other.

*Princessity* · December 15, 2017

22 minutes ago, Gameplayer said:

Hey Kimy, Princess said I should bring up your love of mittens!

Stop sob....Stop the mittens!

...oh. Right. I should probably update Captures one of those millennia, shouldn't I? Looks like my evil plan to make people forget it ever existed isn't going so well. Ughhhhh...

At least Cursed Loot will receive a simultaneous update with 4.0, Don't worry! I'm sure Kimy will only use mittens in ways specifically calculated to cause the maximum amount of helplessness and frustration, you won't be disappointed ^^

*Princessity* · December 15, 2017

9 minutes ago, Dust89 said:

Do you sure for this idea?

It's only my opinion, but I think fight impossibility with heavy restraints make your game expirience more realistic. You become helpless while your hands tied like in real life but also you have a small chance to push back with your legs if they not bound too. And this situation generates many interesting stories if you have right mods. For example, when your hands tied, you can be sold by Devious Enslaved Continued mod.

Also you can't kill your master in SD+ mod and many many other situations witch makes your game expirience more realistic.

I repeat: this is only my opinion and you know what you must to do better than other.

These changes will also come with countermeasures and will only be enabled for generic restraints by default. Third party mods (like SD) will be able to disable and fine-tune this behaviour for their devices. As it is, heavy restraints allow for unarmed combat and can be disabled by applying the DisableBoundKick keyword. The expanded bound combat will work according to the same principles. And it will also come with significant debuffs to ensure that successful bound combat/magic is still a lot, lot harder to pull off than free combat.

Nazzzgul666 · December 15, 2017

Possibly you already have ideas how to change devices, i'll throw in my 2 cents and maybe you like some of it. :smile:

Armbinders and straightjackets should stay as they are, except maybe a buff for kicks if wearing high heels (these things can be dangerous ;)). Not sure if possible, but making more damage on higher game difficulties would be awesome. On easy settings a fight may be challanging but possible, on legendary and even expert it's just out of question. I could understand if you say it's my own fault playing on legendary, but this is the reason i never actually used this option...

Yokes: allowing spells would make sense imho, what i'd prefer over a simple debuff is a chance they miss, i.e. the spell just fizzles. Possibly only for destruction, though.

If somebody makes an animation to fight with daggers in yokes i guess that could be quite entertaining, too, but imho just kicks are fine for that too.

Mittens: What i could imagine very well are two handed weapons only, or if possible, use any weapon (except bows) but always need two hands. Additionally, maybe only allow certain schools of magic, like change and illusion maybe. Not too familiar with the lore how magic in TES works, i could imagine those both could just pass the mittens while destruction and restoration is blocked. Besides that, it enforces some game play changes while it still allows some more than other restcritions.

About mittens in general, what would make me happy is a change (or middle way) for the hardcore system. The chance to lose the key entirely is somewhat exciting, while trying to get it in for half an hour like in my few tests... isn't^^ So, maybe an alternative toggle to put the drop key chance to 5-10% (or a bit higher at start but decreasing with every try) and the chance that it disappears when dropped to ~50% (lower for higher chances to drop, but maybe growing) would be great imho. :smile:

I assume i'm just something like a bad luck magnet in those things. Honestly, the reason i never buy lottery tickets or anything anymore isn't because i can calculate how bad my choices are, the main reason is that even with a 95% win chance, i'm the guy who needs ten tries on a regular basis. So... i'm very grateful for increasing chances or granted success after x tries. In this case, even granted fail, i.e. key lost after x tries would imho be an improvement.

LazyBoot · December 15, 2017

@Kimy or @Princessity

I see that DD4 is out now, is that identical to the latest dev version, or was there any last minute changes?

*Princessity* · December 15, 2017

2 hours ago, Nazzzgul666 said:

Possibly you already have ideas how to change devices, i'll throw in my 2 cents and maybe you like some of it.

Armbinders and straightjackets should stay as they are, except maybe a buff for kicks if wearing high heels (these things can be dangerous ;)). Not sure if possible, but making more damage on higher game difficulties would be awesome. On easy settings a fight may be challanging but possible, on legendary and even expert it's just out of question. I could understand if you say it's my own fault playing on legendary, but this is the reason i never actually used this option...

Yokes: allowing spells would make sense imho, what i'd prefer over a simple debuff is a chance they miss, i.e. the spell just fizzles. Possibly only for destruction, though.

If somebody makes an animation to fight with daggers in yokes i guess that could be quite entertaining, too, but imho just kicks are fine for that too.

Mittens: What i could imagine very well are two handed weapons only, or if possible, use any weapon (except bows) but always need two hands. Additionally, maybe only allow certain schools of magic, like change and illusion maybe. Not too familiar with the lore how magic in TES works, i could imagine those both could just pass the mittens while destruction and restoration is blocked. Besides that, it enforces some game play changes while it still allows some more than other restcritions.

About mittens in general, what would make me happy is a change (or middle way) for the hardcore system. The chance to lose the key entirely is somewhat exciting, while trying to get it in for half an hour like in my few tests... isn't^^ So, maybe an alternative toggle to put the drop key chance to 5-10% (or a bit higher at start but decreasing with every try) and the chance that it disappears when dropped to ~50% (lower for higher chances to drop, but maybe growing) would be great imho.

I assume i'm just something like a bad luck magnet in those things. Honestly, the reason i never buy lottery tickets or anything anymore isn't because i can calculate how bad my choices are, the main reason is that even with a 95% win chance, i'm the guy who needs ten tries on a regular basis. So... i'm very grateful for increasing chances or granted success after x tries. In this case, even granted fail, i.e. key lost after x tries would imho be an improvement.

Hands aren't really required to manipulate magic in ES so all devices will allow to cast spells, but it won't be very effective. There will be various degrees of increased magicka cost, decreased magnitude and duration and a chance that your aim will be thrown off or a spell will fizzle out entirely. I'm planning to incorporate it into device properties so that third party modders will be able to tweak all of these things to their liking, and they will also vary per device type by default.

Weapons will be subject to more hardcoded restrictions and we will mostly decide what works based on what animations Tin manages to come up with.

*Princessity* · December 15, 2017

25 minutes ago, LazyBoot said:

@Kimy or @Princessity

I see that DD4 is out now, is that identical to the latest dev version, or was there any last minute changes?

No changes ^^ For a complete list of new things, please refer to DDi and DDx changelogs. DDa remains frozen and hasn't been modified at all since the previous public release.

wubwubwub · December 16, 2017

Ooh, just saw my notifications. Grats to all on the 4.0 release!

Hanshurtig11 · December 16, 2017

8 hours ago, Princessity said:

No changes ^^ For a complete list of new things, please refer to DDi and DDx changelogs. DDa remains frozen and hasn't been modified at all since the previous public release.

Do i understand right, that there hasn't been any changes to DDa at all. Its still the same as last 3.x Version ? So i dont need to get it Dev version from Github, but can use the old regular ?

And many thx for the release, was really waiting for it :smile: regards

Ekirts Ykcul · December 16, 2017

Thanks to all of you for your hard work and dedication.

This is a great holiday gift.

Congrats on the release.

Jappa123 · December 16, 2017

Hello since all dd4/dcl threads are spammed i decided to post here:

First thing is that everything is kinda slow and "bugged?" for example after i put armbinder i need to wait few sec to see bound animation much slower than in old version

Followers keep their hands bound after unlocking armbinder from them, even if i pull out the weapon they are still bound basically "invisible armbinder" looks like i have to enter new area or teleport to fix it.

I can enter inventory,spells when bound - not sure if its bug or its normal with dd4

Uh? dialogue option - I guess its from DCL but i didnt find any option in MCM related to this

No bound animation on Bound Girls from DCL

Thanks!

LazyBoot · December 16, 2017

13 minutes ago, Jappa123 said:

Followers keep their hands bound after unlocking armbinder from them, even if i pull out the weapon they are still bound basically "invisible armbinder" looks like i have to enter new area or teleport to fix it.

For me it used to do that with the last version as well, same with gags.

13 minutes ago, Jappa123 said:

I can enter inventory,spells when bound - not sure if its bug or its normal with dd4

Working as intended. It's blocking equipping now instead.

14 minutes ago, Jappa123 said:

Uh? dialogue option - I guess its from DCL but i didnt find any option in MCM related to this

That is indeed a cursed loot issue, I've posted a temp fix in the cursed loot thread while waiting for Kimy to officially fix.

HyperonicX · December 16, 2017

Red Leather Restrictive Corset with the open belt only shows the corset and not the belt part when worn, and in the CK.

I've rectified it myself manually, but I thought you should know, cause it was really weird.

harakoni · December 17, 2017

I haven't found any bugs so far. Out of curiosity are the zaz rope devices on the books for the next update?

Anooon · December 17, 2017

Is it intentional that the cooldown after failed escape attempts from devices also applies to using keys to unlock them? I tried to take off a corset, the key broke and...then my character was too tired from turning a key so she had to wait two hours until she could try turning a key again. That seems pretty silly, if you ask me.

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